Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[Lil'E]

I hope someone makes a video showing the usefulness of the new PSI Magnet. I've almost got the timing down, but I can't seem to find any use for it.

I read that it was going to be a great way to edgeguard. As far as I can tell... Landing a DAir, PK Flash, PKT1, or any other aerial does the job better. Against a lot of recoveries the SA and Wind do more harm than good it seems. Sure, it works fine against recoveries like Fox, Falco, Wolf, Ike, etc. due to the way their recoveries work. It can easily push them under the stage or away from it. Even during the helpless state of let's say Mario after he does his recovery, depending on the percent a bat would do better than the wind unless the wind is given more power. He was pushed back alright, but not far enough for him to miss the ledge. Against Peach... it actually pushes her UP if she is floating or if she has her parasol out.


Why use PSI Magnet's super armor to eat an attack? A spot dodge or air dodge seems like the better choice. Unlike Olimar's... you can not counter attack. The wind pushes them and it takes way too long to drop PSI Magnet.

Either I just don't understand the concept or I'm using it wrong. Hell, it could be both of those reasons.

Someone explain to me how to use this correctly. Right now... I'm not convinced that giving up the old PK Flash and PK Thunder was worth this.

 

[Yingyay]

Why use PSI Magnet's super armor to eat an attack? A spot dodge or air dodge seems like the better choice. Unlike Olimar's... you can not counter attack. The wind pushes them and it takes way too long to drop PSI Magnet.

Either I just don't understand the concept or I'm using it wrong. Hell, it could be both of those reasons.

Someone explain to me how to use this correctly. Right now... I'm not convinced that giving up the old PK Flash and PK Thunder was worth this.

I had no idea that the psi magnet had SA frames. Why would you wanna eat damage instead of healing tho? Ness is already stupid gimpable. Why add oil?

 

[Alphatron]

I hope someone makes a video showing the usefulness of the new PSI Magnet. I've almost got the timing down, but I can't seem to find any use for it.

I read that it was going to be a great way to edgeguard. As far as I can tell... Landing a DAir, PK Flash, PKT1, or any other aerial does the job better. Against a lot of recoveries the SA and Wind do more harm than good it seems. Sure, it works fine against recoveries like Fox, Falco, Wolf, Ike, etc. due to the way their recoveries work. It can easily push them under the stage or away from it. Even during the helpless state of let's say Mario after he does his recovery, depending on the percent a bat would do better than the wind unless the wind is given more power. He was pushed back alright, but not far enough for him to miss the ledge. Against Peach... it actually pushes her UP if she is floating or if she has her parasol out.


Why use PSI Magnet's super armor to eat an attack? A spot dodge or air dodge seems like the better choice. Unlike Olimar's... you can not counter attack. The wind pushes them and it takes way too long to drop PSI Magnet.

Either I just don't understand the concept or I'm using it wrong. Hell, it could be both of those reasons.

Someone explain to me how to use this correctly. Right now... I'm not convinced that giving up the old PK Flash and PK Thunder was worth this.

I agree. The only major use I've seen is defending yourself when coming back to the stage. Yes, it does hit hard the already bad recoveries of Fox and Falco. But most characters seem to laugh it off. The wind also pushed the ICs higher after their Belay UpB. Not to mention when I actually did gimp them, they were already in freefall, and I'm pretty sure Ness' other tools would have worked as well.

I'll test it further...but I don't think it should stay atm.

 

[SSBFalco]

So I heard about the recent changes to Ness, I haven't tried him out yet, but I'm definately not looking forward to it. Like someone else said, why gimp with PSI Magnet when you have better options?

Hopefully I'll have a chance to test Ness out some time this week but for now, may I ask those who have tried him out their opinions?

 

[Lil'E]

I dislike the new set really.

All of my offstage tactics have changed.

I can also no longer use PKT1 to pop up recovering opponents into a bat. That felt so good man.

The yoyos are a nice change though. Now, if only they made them able to be charged near the edge.

 

[Chaos Reign]

Um, I might be making a big mistake here, but you said that psi magnet has super armor frames right? I might be using an old code set (7/10?), but you can jump out of the initial part of the psi magnet when on the ground (or roll) to cancel it. Couldn't you use its SA frames then? That would give it a new onstage use.

Granted, the wind effect doesn't come if you cancel it like that and the cooldown after an aerial psi magnet is quite large, so I do understand where you're coming from with using it for edge guarding.

 

[CountKaiser]

Chaos reign, you're using the wrong set.

Use the 7/20 build for the SA magnet.

 

[Lil'E]

You are using an older set.

Edit: beat to it D:

 

[Chaos Reign]

Chaos reign, you're using the wrong set.

Use the 7/20 build for the SA magnet.

Ah ok. My apologies. I'll go look up the changes they made to him then.

 

[shanus]

from the other thread:
Now Psi Magnet: In simna's own words the JCable Psi magnet only "greatly effected 2 matchups" and it also ruined his ability to stall in the air, and borked him when he absorbed as well. In a time where each individual frame speed addition is a curse causing idle animation bugs, further supporting this claim with extra frame speed lines isn't the ideal addition. Furthermore, it barely added utility to the move except in a few matchups. Call me crazy, but the wind effect I found amazing use for for predicting shield grabs on mix-ups with approaching SHFFLs, new aggressive edgeguards, and did you know it can actually windspike? The move, if anything seems a bit too good for insane spacing where I can constantly predict the opponent and push him away so he can't get near me to punish me on my approaches. Like seriously, I would do cross up aerials, set it up with a wind right before landing, and the opponent literally couldn't touch me because of it. Don't just hurl yourself off stage to use it, because then you will just think it sucks.

The current Psi Magnet super armor has a 7 frame window with refreshable SA depending on the frame they hit with. So if their multihit moves + hitlag have a spacer duration greater than 7 frames, you will be hit by that. That is what happened when you ate the multihit move but got the finisher. It means, like with many super armor moves, don't try and get too greedy.

 

[DangerLance]

I was actually quite pleased with this set. After taking a little bit of time to adjust to the new changes, I found I was able to use the psi magnet in such a way as to put a stop to my opponent's combos and at the same time, put them exactly where I wanted them to be, so I could eat them up with Ness' sick mobility.

Off-edge, same story. Whatever my opponent would try to use to get through my edgeguard, I'd break it up with a psi magnet and just like that, they're worse off than before.

I would gladly trade off unlimited PKT1s for this.. it adds a new and versatile element to Ness' arsenal; one which goes hand in hand with his style of movement and motion, instead of just another obvious attack buff.

Give it a chance, learn to use it right, and believe me, you'll come around.

 

[Lil'E]

Then I suppose I just don't know how to use this right then.

I've been playing using this set for a good couple of hours and I could find no use for it. The SA frames are useless. I still don't understand the point of eating an attack when you can't even retaliate due to the wind. And depending on the characters location when the wind actually comes out... it may push them into a safe position or even push them towards the stage.

My friends have even said that once they see PSI Magnet come out they already know to look for the wind hitbox and plan accordingly. The wind comes out too slow to make use of it. And my Ike friend just prepares a counter anyway.

Wind spiking? I'l admit, that could be pretty sick. But, using PKT or PK Flash for that seems to be the better choice. Stopping approaches? I used to be able to use PKT1 for that. The tail is great and hitting them with the head pops them towards you which could lead to many things.

Someone said the new PSI Magnet helps break combos. Well, can't an air/spot dodge also do that without needing to worry about a timed SA or that great wind effect.

I am not a fan of the magnet. I'd prefer it revert to its vbrawl state as long as it brings back the old PKT1. I will propose some changes for it though.

PSI Magnet is a healing special. It is not for TAKING damage. Either have him not take damage at all during the SA frames or reduce the damage he receives by 50% which in term gives him PSI Shield adding loldepth. If you want to utilize the wind hitbox, then make it come out faster than it already does. People are saying that the SA window is tight too. No it isn't. With some practice you can easily do it most of the time. This could just come from experience because I played Olimar a bit when Brawl first came out though.

/rant I suppose

As for the down tilt, well... if possible I believe the rate that it trips should be increased.

I'm perfectly fine with everything else. If there are any videos of Ness using the 7-20 set, someone please post them.

 

[PKNintendo]

Hey, why don't you post this in the nightly thread?

 

[Lil'E]

This is ridiculous. They just don't want us to have the infinite PKT1.

The sped up animation helps a bit, but it still doesn't change the fact that he can no longer use PKT1 offstage or for recovery without falling to his death.

And the sped up animation looks so stupid.

I give up. I can only hope that if this does make it to an official set that people realize how crappy/situational PSI Magnet is once they go to tournaments.

 

[shanus]

I'll try and get vids up later this week, but itll probably have to wait till next week :-\

 

[[TSON]]

This is ridiculous. They just don't want us to have the infinite PKT1.

The sped up animation helps a bit, but it still doesn't change the fact that he can no longer use PKT1 offstage or for recovery without falling to his death.

And the sped up animation looks so stupid.

I give up. I can only hope that if this does make it to an official set that people realize how crappy/situational PSI Magnet is once they go to tournaments.

It's not crappy or situational. It's good-broken.

It's a safe way to **** other PK Thunders from a distance. It also ***** shield rolls and combos and SHFFLs. It's too good

 

[Lil'E]

Once I see it I'll believe it. In the mean time I am still trying to use this to my advantage with no success.


Even if the magnet is good, was it so good to warrant the removal of his infinite UP-B? I don't think so, but one voice does not weight much against many other Ness mains and the guys who actually make the sets. :X

If there is a chance to get back his multiple Up-Bs I'm going to grab it. But, I'm not gonna complain so much as to take away something everyone else enjoys.

This change is not in the official codeset yet, so until it is I plan on fighting it. Other than that I just have to adapt and get over it.

 

[[TSON]]

Once I see it I'll believe it. In the mean time I am still trying to use this to my advantage with no success.


Even if the magnet is good, was it so good to warrant the removal of his infinite UP-B? I don't think so, but one voice does not weight much against many other Ness mains and the guys who actually make the sets. :X

If there is a chance to get back his multiple Up-Bs I'm going to grab it. But, I'm not gonna complain so much as to take away something everyone else enjoys.

This change is not in the official codeset yet, so until it is I plan on fighting it. Other than that I just have to adapt and get over it.

I'm not for it either; you and I share a common opinion

 

[Mattnumbers]

I like how one of you is complaining that the Psimagnet is too good and the other is complaining that it's too bad -_-

Also, infinite PKT1 helped very little, since if a person can cancel out one, they can easily cancel out two or three. At a higher level of play it really didn't even help much at all.

 

[Lil'E]

Matt, I'll agree with you. If one can be canceled, the others can too.

But, that's still 8% each time my PKT hits them if they didn't cancel it out with an attack. Don't you think that extra 24-32% is helpful(unless you're on your last stock LOL)? If someone wants to jump into his PKT they should be prepared to face the damage.

My problem isn't even with the nerfed recovery. Multiple PKT had more uses than just recovery for me. I used it for aerial defense/offense as well as screwing over recovering opponents.

That's just me though so lol.

 

[Alphatron]

I used it for aerial defense when coming down from above the stage. Just spin it around Ness or PKT2 him down.

Offstage...let's just say I was able to cancel out multiple thunders by spamming Din's fire against my little brother.

 

[thesage]

Pk flash's speed wasn't really it's problem lol. It's meant to be an edgeguarding move. The range was increased and it's ****. I actually wanted it decreased (like 1.75) lol.

Cape was trying to make pk flash into aerial mines that Ness could "set" and run away from, but Sakurai prevented him lol.

 

[SSBFalco]

Just tried out the new Ness, and it wasn't as bad as I was expecting at all. Honestly, I thought these changes would reinvent Ness again, but it didn't make that huge of a gameplay change for me, to be honest.

The new Magnet is kinda funny, it has its new uses, I can't say I really care for it. Dsmash got a nice buff, I still use it like I used to before, except now it's even better at it! I haven't played enough to actually edgegaurd with it efficiently, as I'm still getting used to it, but it doesn't seem very reliable at all. I actually tried to edgegaurd Fox the whole match with Dsmash, but his Firefox went right through it =/. I'll try it with other characters soon, but I don't really see a time when I could use it instead of using any of my other options.

I like the Dthrow even more now, as it more reliably links into other moves. PK Fire got a nice buff as well, pretty much gauranteeing a combo at the lower %s. PK Flash is still useful at edgegaurding, though now I have to start charging it up while the opponent is far enough away when before I could start charging it when they were relatively close to the stage, but it's no big deal, we have other options in that situation.

The only thing that kind of disappointed me is the Fair nerf, lol. D:
I really liked abusing Ness's Fair, but I know it's better to nerf it a bit. I was too dependant upon Fair in almost every situation, I think it's for the best if it was nerfed in order to let Ness keep his depth.

 

[thesage]

Well, Fair is still in a buffed state from what it was before simna's nightly.

D-smash and u-smash clanking with moves is a problem Kaiser was trying to fix. Priority is calculated really weirdly in brawl...

I'd also like to point out that psi magnet has a lot more vertical range than horizontal range.

 

[PKNintendo]

Pk flash's speed wasn't really it's problem lol. It's meant to be an edgeguarding move. The range was increased and it's ****. I actually wanted it decreased (like 1.75) lol.

Cape was trying to make pk flash into aerial mines that Ness could "set" and run away from, but Sakurai prevented him lol.

That would have been so cool... If you've ever played Dissidia using the emperor.

But if it made it worse.
Sage. It's range wasn't increased. It stayed the same. (I'm talking about the transition from Simna' Ness to the new nightly Ness)

But I can get over it's speed problems. The range is SEX.


Umm... I like the new PKT1's. The new fair is pretty cool, you can combo one into the other.

PS: Are you serious Sage? Doesn't that mean it could theoretically wind spike?

 

[Lil'E]

But why even attempt a wind spike in the first place unless going for a wtf moment from your opponent getting stocked by a breeze.

Depending on the character.... jumping off and using a dair, bair, or pk fire to pillar spike seems to be the better opton. Or stay on stage and use a PK Flash, PK Thunder for stage spike or setup for dair/bat, or his yoyos.

 

[thesage]

It only has horizontal knockback unfortunately (from what I've seen). I still am testing it out lol.

D-smash ***** people who fly over the edge lol.

Lil'e: Because the psi magnet windbox is disjointed. Dair doesn't beat every up-b in the game... Try it out on spacies when they are using their up-b.

 

[Lil'E]

Dair doesn't beat every up-b in the game... Try it out on spacies when they are using their up-b.

Which is why I listed other options :x

 

[thesage]

Well psi magnet is another option now? I found it useful today online lol.

 

[SSBFalco]

Yeah, PSI Magnet gives you another gimping option now. It's nice to have another option, although it is almost always overshadowed by Ness's other options.

The more I play around with Dsmash the more I start to wish I had the old Dsmash back... I used to use it to punish my opponents when they crossed me up while I was shielding, which happens enough for me to rack up a good amount of damage on them, but now, when Dsmash hits when the yo-yo is coming out, it trips the opponent, giving them invincibility frames to bypass the attack itself. This is my biggest concern, that I hope will be fixed if Dsmash is decided to be kept this way.

As for Dsmash being an edgegaurder... I don't know. I haven't found it very reliable at all. I do get it to work often, what I mean is, there's just usually always better options available to me, so I don't really know what else I can do with it. It is hilarious when I land it on the spacies, however!
I usually just use it now to punish predicted rolls/spotdodges, or when the enemy is hanging at the ledge and you don't know whether he'll roll past you or stand up by the edge. Dsmash covers both these options.

 

[Deleted member]

How was zap jump added? It looks like you can zap jump with anything, not just PK fire, fair, for example. Or am I doing something wrong?

 

[thesage]

No you can do it with aerials and I think his airdodge too. It was added by speeding up the first 2 frames of his double jump (it's on the changelist).

 

[shanus]

It only has horizontal knockback unfortunately (from what I've seen). I still am testing it out lol.

D-smash ***** people who fly over the edge lol.

Lil'e: Because the psi magnet windbox is disjointed. Dair doesn't beat every up-b in the game... Try it out on spacies when they are using their up-b.

If any person overshoots the edge on a special fall up B, you need to magnet it, every time. Its an easy kill.

 

[Lil'E]

It depends on the distance or I'm doing something wrong.


They will get pushed back, but msot of the time not far enough for them to not grab the ledge. I'd be better of with a grab or bat.

 

[shanus]

It depends on the distance or I'm doing something wrong.


They will get pushed back, but msot of the time not far enough for them to not grab the ledge. I'd be better of with a grab or bat.

Sounds like your timing it wrong. If the opponent is recovering, I tend to find myself do a quick hovering Psi magnet well in advance of the recovery so it does some pushback well in the air. Then you can set up the speedhug edgehog or have an easy opponent for a ledgedrop invuln aerial.

 

[thesage]

I think aerial psi magnet is stronger than grounded psi magnet (or the other way around, not sure, but I think it's the aerial one that's stronger). It's really noticeable on the sandbag in the wifi waiitng room.

 

[shanus]

I think aerial psi magnet is stronger than grounded psi magnet (or the other way around, not sure, but I think it's the aerial one that's stronger). It's really noticeable on the sandbag in the wifi waiitng room.

I always use the aerial over the grounded, it feels like the hitbox is almost elliptical in the vertical direction.

 

[thesage]

I always use the aerial over the grounded, it feels like the hitbox is almost elliptical in the vertical direction.

You are very correct, the hitbox is extremely ovaloid (lol it sounds cool) for some odd sakurai-ish reason.

 

[Lil'E]

Fine.

I just can't do it correctly but I suppose I'll agree that the wind MAY be effective at times.

But the super armor? I think not.

 

[PKNintendo]

I havent found a good use, but its better than nothing.