Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Lil'E]

You know he is only different regarding his upB right? You had Simna's build for like a week lol.

Ganons sideB is currently untechable through an ugly fix.

I know, I know. I'm just being unreasonable because multiple UP-B is what made me join B+ in the first place.

I'm still giving the magnet a chance.

Are you sure you can't tech it? I'm doing it right now.

 

[Swordplay]

what does that even mean?
*not a link/ness main*

There are so many ways they are similar.......When you think about it.

I think he means that Ness is going through a lot of changes similar to how Link got a bunch a while ago.

i thoguht it meant that they are good onstage but mainly have CRAP recoveries
*2nds link and uses ness a little*

Yup....

...Recoveries and poor movesets hurt both of these characters SO much that generally nobody knew how to correctly fix their inherent jaw dropping flaws that made you want to puke.

And both characters, Ness more recently, received huge revamps that ended up working out in similar ways in how they were fixed.

However......

lol no, he was remembering the awful days of when link mains were very confused and disgruntled about changes. But happy in the long run

Shanus wins. He is the most correct. Ness community like Link community finally spoke out, things worked out, and everybody seemed to walk away with a smile.

This is why I love B+.

Edit:

As for the Link-Ness comparison, we were only complaining when you said Link had enough. Then you went and changed most everything, and we basically shut up and were happy with the changes.

On that note, It's more that we found a way for Link to be more "Link like" without loosing his character distinctiveness and without sucking. Ness mains succeeded in the same thing.

 

[shanus]

I know, I know. I'm just being unreasonable because its what made me join B+ in the first place.

I'm still giving the magnet a chance.

Are you sure you can't tech it? I'm doing it right now.

Hop in the irc, or describe here exactly what you are doing. I think I have a more elegant fix drafted up anywho

 

[Shadic]

I have never ever ever lost out to another move while doing PKT2.

Could be a coincidence. I think it already has insane priority.

Then why are people complaining about it being too interruptable? If you can get it to go further, it would prevent his gimps, while keeping some difficulty of the move.

Maybe I'm just easily confused because I only play SB64 Ness.

As for the Link-Ness comparison, we were only complaining when you said Link had enough. Then you went and changed most everything, and we basically shut up and were happy with the changes.

 

[[TSON]]

The complaint is PKT1 being able to be jumped into to gimp Ness, while in the build(s) before he had the ability to use it again if that happened.

 

[Lil'E]

Hop in the irc, or describe here exactly what you are doing. I think I have a more elegant fix drafted up anywho

Well, I dunno if I'm doing anything different, but...

My cousin was Ganon and I was Ness. He used his Side-B and I just pressed the R button to tech it. >.>

I thought it was fixed so I had him try it out in training mode and I was able to regularly tech it or use a rolling tech.

 

[FrozenHobo]

The complaint is PKT1 being able to be jumped into to gimp Ness, while in the build(s) before he had the ability to use it again if that happened.

i hope you realize you're complaining about the removal of something that was added. its not like they took away your recovery. if you played brawl ness fine with his crap recovery why should B+ be different?

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

He should be given a fair chance...

i thoguht that was gonna be a F-air joke....

lol no, he was remembering the awful days of when link mains were very confused and disgruntled about changes. But happy in the long run

Ness is fine and ppl can work around his issues like they've always had to

any level freezes possibly coming up to make more levels fair?

Jiggs DownB = Dark attack?
why not fire and what exactly is the difference btwn fire attacks and dark attacks

 

[Lil'E]

i hope you realize you're complaining about the removal of something that was added. its not like they took away your recovery. if you played brawl ness fine with his crap recovery why should B+ be different?

Well, for one there is no auto ledge snap thing or whatever its called... right?

 

[FrozenHobo]

Jiggs DownB = Dark attack?
why not fire and what exactly is the difference btwn fire attacks and dark attacks

its just graphical to distinguish B+ from melee/vBrawl even more.

Well, for one there is no auto ledge snap thing or whatever its called... right?

if you aiming for the ledge then you're not recovering right. aim to get onto the stage. with PKT2's KO power its the better choice to get onto the stage.

 

[Lil'E]

if you aiming for the ledge then you're not recovering right. aim to get onto the stage. with PKT2's KO power its the better choice to get onto the stage.

But that's just asking for a Forward Smash to the face.

 

[Plum]

Jiggly having Darkness Rest (too good btw) gets rid of some stupid Pogey related things with the fire effect while making it completely more badass in every way.

But yeah, with the fire effect Ivy took 10% more knockback from a Rest while Squirtle took 10% less knockback from a Rest. So no more of that silliness.

 

[FrozenHobo]

But that's just asking for a Forward Smash to the face.

depends. if thy can make PKT2 have more priority (OR SA PROPERTIES!!!!) then thats not a problem.

 

[Lil'E]

Brawl+ needs more heart effects.

Lucas wants PK Love.

 

[[TSON]]

iPKT2's KO power its the better choice to get onto the stage.

WOAH I WISH I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT POINT BEFORE :embarrass

 

[The Cape]

Rest also doesnt effect Ivy and Squirtle badly now (Same with Bowser F smash).

One other Link + Ness similarity.

I fixed both chars in a one time hardcore revamp and overdid it, and Shanus cleaned up the mess.

 

[Deleted member]

So... The stages that were removed from the SSS are back?

 

[FrozenHobo]

So... The stages that were removed from the SSS are back?

they weren't 'removed', they simply forgot a line of code that had the stages on it (one line can = up to 8 stages!)

 

[Yingyay]

So hows everything goind with the frame freeze bugs? I hope it gets ironed out.
Had some sets today (on wifi but with crystal clear connection). Ness seemed okay to me. The wind effect is hilarious on a unsuspecting person.

 

[MK26]

And now you think Ness is Lucas 2.0. Last I checked, Ness can't magnet pull, doesn't have a tether grab, a killing uthrow, the strongest pummel in the game, a PKT that can gimp opponents, or has become a ground-based character with with a reliable fsmash, a dsmash that goes through most any recovery, or the second strongest usmash in the game.

See my point?

/me hears bawwwwing

your point is that you want ness to have a stronger ground game. loljk. sarcasm intended.

they weren't 'removed', they simply forgot a line of code that had the stages on it (one line can = up to 8 stages!)

It wasnt a line of data, it was a line of the engine. I'm very surprised the code actually worked with the line missing, it should've completely frozen the game from what I can see.

 

[FrozenHobo]

It wasnt a line of data, it was a line of the engine. I'm very surprised the code actually worked with the line missing, it should've completely frozen the game from what I can see.

the engine? then why
a) were only a few stages missing

and

b) could the game even run? i know when i mess up how many bytes are needed i got a code dump... O_O

 

[XSilvenX]

Last few pages were quite amusing. That is all ^_^

 

[[TSON]]

You don't want people falling into Ness to stop PKT, right?

Then use a zap jump fair. It goes pretty far when you do it correctly, and with Good DI can ensure your survival.

I know, you don't like the zap jump. Well, it was always there to begin with, this change simply made it much better.

And now you think Ness is Lucas 2.0. Last I checked, Ness can't magnet pull, doesn't have a tether grab, a killing uthrow, the strongest pummel in the game, a PKT that can gimp opponents, or has become a ground-based character with with a reliable fsmash, a dsmash that goes through most any recovery, or the second strongest usmash in the game.

See my point?

I feel the need to go back and quote this.

Magnet pull seems to be partially broken for me, only works half of the time
Lucas's tether is barely ever useful.
Ness has bthrow instead of uthrow
Ness has better throws to make up for the pummel
Ness's PKT can gimp foes by pulling them into awkward places

The rest I'll just disagree with by saying 2.0 comes with changes. Otherwise I would have said 1.1 >.>

 

[MK26]

the engine? then why
a) were only a few stages missing

and

b) could the game even run? i know when i mess up how many bytes are needed i got a code dump... O_O

i honestly have no clue.

Also, darkness rest 2gud.
Also, D3 fsmash > missed rest D:

 

[Deleted member]

they weren't 'removed', they simply forgot a line of code that had the stages on it (one line can = up to 8 stages!)

They weren't there=removed.
Strange that it worked, though.
Have you seen the replay? btw.

Last few pages were quite amusing. That is all ^_^

Might as well say "I spam ^_^" or "+1 post count"

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ness's PKT is a horrible gimping move, it knocks them straight up. Pretty much it just does extra damage while they are still offstage. It's much more effective to edgeguard with somthing else.

And Lucas is very different than Ness, he has a much better ground game and is extremely good at edgeguarding. Ness has a very powerful air game, but a sub-par ground game (although it's better than it used to be).

I can't actually try the new build right now though so I can't give feedback on the Ness changes, but I do know that I'm in favor of removing infinite PKT1. Does the new Dsmash edgeguard? I can't really tell from the data, but it looks like it. If so, thanks a bunch that was one of the main changes I wanted for him. Also Dthrow buff yay.

 

[CountKaiser]

/me hears bawwwwing

your point is that you want ness to have a stronger ground game

For the love of god, I'm fine with ness how he is. When did I suggest that I wanted a better ground game for Ness? Hmm? When was ness having a good ground game EVER integral to this argument?

Also, dsmash does indeed edgeguard.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

And, we already have a stage size mod but, there are bugs with certain stages if we try to change them in size (i.e Corneria, kupo tried to make it bigger and I heard that when he did there were bugs with the stage).

I was the one that informed kupo of the problems with the increased size of the two stages. *pats self in the back* Anyway, here's what the problem was:
For Corneria, on a bigger Corneria, when there are more than two players, the one that starts in the spot that is second right the right (it's random, so it's not a specific player slot that it always happens to) would spawn INSIDE the fin and just drop through the stage and die, even before the match starts. The bigger the stage is increased by, the greater the percentage of the cast gets affected. Smaller, skinnier characters get affected first, and the tall, bulky characters are affected last. This can be fixed once there's a code that allows you to pick starting spawn points for non-custom built stages (but I doubt anyone is working on making such a code right now).
For Yoshi's Island, as the stage gets bigger, the ghost platforms gets closer to the stage. With this, when the platforms are raised, it makes it impossible to hang on the edges of the main stage, due to the ghost platform forcing you to stand on it again. Like Corneria's problem, the bigger the stage is increased by, the greater the percentage of the cast gets affected. This has the opposite affect as Corneria's problem, though, in that the bulkier characters get affected first, and vice versa. I've tried raising/lowering the stage, but that doesn't fix anything, since the ghost platform just follows the main platform and always raises to the same height as the stage. But I think this stage is better the way it is, anyway. Making it bigger made it kind of more awkward to play on.

Also, when I read that Ganondorf's side-b can no longer be teched, I was like, "okay, that's fine." But then I noticed a computer teching the side-b, so I was like, "WTF..." I then proceeded to test that out, and was able to tech it over and over without much trouble. I was going to say something about it, but forgot (it wasn't too high on my priority list anyway, since I figured that maybe you guys decided last minute to not go with it being un-techable but forgot to correct the change list or something...but I guess not).

 

[MK26]

For the love of god, I'm fine with ness how he is. When did I suggest that I wanted a better ground game for Ness? Hmm? When was ness having a good ground game EVER integral to this argument?

Also, dsmash does indeed edgeguard.

BAHAHAHHAHAHA

check my post again.

then my sig. (EDIT: hmmm. the sig might be cut off. w/e, point still stands.)

if that doesn't work, try ctrl+A...

LMFAOOO

 

[Alphatron]

Well, for one there is no auto ledge snap thing or whatever its called... right?

Just with Lucas buddy, Ness can still sweetspot. Or at least not bounce and go flying in some odd direction. I'm used to dealing with not being gimped in vbrawl and brawl+ ain't too bad on that(Falcon ***** Ness. recovery though, infinite PK or not).

Thanks for the info Shanus. New magnet is better. Also, psp post and it sucks.

 

[CountKaiser]

BAHAHAHHAHAHA

check my post again.

then my sig. (EDIT: hmmm. the sig might be cut off. w/e, point still stands.)

if that doesn't work, try ctrl+A...

LMFAOOO

Hooray for sarcasm, in a medium of conversation where inflection of tone is impossible to detect.

 

[[TSON]]

Also, dsmash does indeed edgeguard.

As does usmash.

 

[HeroPenguin]

My thoughts on my two favorite characters:

Bowser:
The SA crawl is lulzy and really helps out alot in match ups with sheik and falco. It was such a pain before to power shield there projectiles while inching forward. Now I just take two or three shots and BAM fist to face. I enjoyed this change, but ask that if it stays SA be added to reverse crawl for the purposes of using his SA crawl as an all purpose spacing and approach tool.

The buffed throws help him SOOO much. Getting the opponent off stage lets Bowser's edge guarding game shine.

I could not tell any difference with the up-tilt though i know it was changed to down and in front a teensy bit more. It was so utterly minute. Why do it at all?

The neutral air change is amazing. It says GTFO, and take your junk with you. I found myself almost unconsciously gimping with it. It was perfect for jumping out and hitting characters trying to pull in for tether. It is a great move, and i believe bowser is shaping up to be a great character.

Ness:
He is so much FUN! the removal of the infinte PKT1 did not hurt at all. It does suck to be gimpable, but his SHFFL F-air game is so good he needs a weakness to offset it. i prefer using the down+b to stall and mind game then use my up+b when I'm in a good position to recover.

F-air feels good. Not as Godly as it was at 25% size increase, but still his spacing bread and butter.

One thing I noticed is the side+b zap jump is 100x harder than the zap jump with aerials. I don't know why. My personal opinion is to remove the zap jump, and leave it for lucas. I find myself not being able to do it consistently when recovering, and doing it too many times accidentally while trying to do rising aerials.

Ness has a BAD recovery. The new down+b stall and windbox changes Ness's whole recovery game. IMO No infinite PKT1, normal PKT1 endlag, less PKT2 endlag, No zap jump, and the new crazy awesome down+b would be the perfect combination for ness's recovery game. In the wrong hands it will be aweful, as it should be, in the hands of a pro it will be manageable. As long as he has a good enough game on stage to offset his awful recovery i think he will be a very viable character.

Brawl+:
Thank you so much for all your hard work WBR. I'm impressed that you are making these two characters viable without sacrificing those things that make them, them. I love how natural they feel while at the same time being great characters. I was originally afraid you would just boost Bowser's speed through the roof and make ness's recovery good, but you have maintained those things that make them who they are and have come closer to making them balanced. Bravo and Thank you.

I really liked this post. It's refreshing to see a good, meaty post full of impressions that isn't a big whine.

It helps that I agree with pretty much everything he said, too. XD There's still a part of me that thinks that Ness's Fair is way too central to his game to the point of making him feel fairly one-trick-pony-y, but by and large I like where he's sitting now, minus the loss of PKT1 with no special fall. Magnet, Flash, and Dsmash went a long way towards that opinion.

I don't think people say this enough: Good job, BR.

 

[Alphatron]

Can't test the nightly atm, but how is the new Chairzard upsmash? Is it impossible to DI out of and does it suddenly have increased range? Because if not, I don't see why anyone would say that its easier to land now.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i'm noticing a problem with wario... mainly that he has so little hitstun he can hit while he's stuck in squall hammer. seriously, i was hitting him with it and i just randomly get hit by his nair. does he have no hitstun or something? he can also hit me while he's being jabbed. just kind of expected him to have, you know, SOME hitstun...

edit: yeah, its like playing as vBrawl wario. like, no delay after getting hit (buffer at 0).

 

[_clinton]

Looking into Ness again...

After getting freak gimped by a fly guy on YI and a moving platform that came out while I was recovering on Frigate today I sort of want unlimited PKT1 back...plus I just loved it for more reasons other than preventing you from having ****ing dumb gimps...god...Ness is still open to being largely gimped anyway because the only thing protected is his top area...

I still see the Fsmash as suck...the thing doesn't kill soon enough because of its speed/power rate...the range really isn't a large issue IMO...

I kind of want a bit more range on Fair if the short hop is going to be lower...the short hop Fair doesn't even cover the lower platforms that well on BF right now...well the foe gets hit by 2% of the 14%...but still...

As for Ness' other airs...are there any thoughts on making certain hit boxes stay out longer? Nair and Dair come to mind with me...Nair is suppose to be a GTFO me move...Dair is suppose to punish defense moves/kill at 0%...and making it faster has screwed with the timing on certain things IMO (You use to be able to hit people who were below a platform with it very well...plus the times where it isn't out make it different for dealing with certain defense moves than what it once had)

I still want Bthrow to be fixed from when it was broke coming to Brawl+...
Utilt still doesn't have any range...nor does Ness have anything for real kill combos other than Dash attack, Dair, and PKT in some ways...and one of those is busted because it is too slow at recovering now...

Now I'm sure Lucas' Dthrow in vBrawl was better at killing than his new Uthrow buff as well...but I'm still going on...the Dthrow buff is a god sent because of him losing its low % use in vBrawl and now it is just better...have you thought about lowering Ness' Uthrow knockback to make it more like Melee's? Can I ask what the stats for base knockback and growth are on Ness' Dthrow?

I have some other things (like has anyone noticed the freezing issues on more than just Mario?) but for now...

 

[thesage]

I don't know why everybody was complaining about how pkt1's onstage game was nerfed. It was an absolutely terrible move anyways, even with Simna's buffs lol. It's a terribad move. It only served as a buff to his recovery...

So yea, looking at the, only problem I see with the Ness changes is that I'd rather uair combo better instead of kill rather than fair getting those buffs. I only want fair to link together (as in the weak hits combo into the strong hits) and set up for uair juggles/ other moves. Not for it to be an actual combo move.

My main problem with Ness before was that he had a lot of combo starters, and combo finishers, but nothing to really continue those combos...

I also don't think he needs the alr set to 60% for him since his only laggy aerial was dair, and good people would autocancel that.

Overall I'm happy with the new Ness though.

Clintion, dair is out for a least 5 frames. That's pretty good as something that doubles as an insane spike/combo move and his most powerful aerial.

 

[CountKaiser]

Looking into Ness again...

After getting freak gimped by a fly guy on YI and a moving platform that came out while I was recovering on Frigate today I sort of want unlimited PKT1 back...plus I just loved it for more reasons other than preventing you from having ****ing dumb gimps...god...Ness is still open to being largely gimped anyway because the only thing protected is his top area...

I still see the Fsmash as suck...the thing doesn't kill soon enough because of its speed/power rate...the range really isn't a large issue IMO...

I kind of want a bit more range on Fair if the short hop is going to be lower...the short hop Fair doesn't even cover the lower platforms that well on BF right now...well the foe gets hit by 2% of the 14%...but still...

As for Ness' other airs...are there any thoughts on making certain hit boxes stay out longer? Nair and Dair come to mind with me...Nair is suppose to be a GTFO me move...Dair is suppose to punish defense moves/kill at 0%...and making it faster has screwed with the timing on certain things IMO (You use to be able to hit people who were below a platform with it very well...plus the times where it isn't out make it different for dealing with certain defense moves than what it once had)

I still want Bthrow to be fixed from when it was broke coming to Brawl+...
Utilt still doesn't have any range...nor does Ness have anything for real kill combos other than Dash attack, Dair, and PKT in some ways...and one of those is busted because it is too slow at recovering now...

Now I'm sure Lucas' Dthrow in vBrawl was better at killing than his new Uthrow buff as well...but I'm still going on...the Dthrow buff is a god sent because of him losing its low % use in vBrawl and now it is just better...have you thought about lowering Ness' Uthrow knockback to make it more like Melee's? Can I ask what the stats for base knockback and growth are on Ness' Dthrow?

I have some other things (like has anyone noticed the freezing issues on more than just Mario?) but for now...

Considering fsmash, I still say the move needs growth instead of range. I tested the move with +5 growth on the tip, and it helped it so much and made it really strong. Not sure why Shanus didn't keep it.

I like the size of fair now, and I never had any true problems with it. That's me, though.

I noticed that you say brawl+ broke Ness's bthrow. How is it broken? When did it kill at in vBrawl? When does it kill now?

Longer lasting aerials? Never thought of that. Also, as for kill combos, Ness does lack them, one reliable one being dair to uair, and another one that may work being the new PK fire into bair or fsmash. However, Ness does have good edgeguards, such as nair, PK Flash, and dsmash.

As for Ness dthrow data, the base was once 90, and then was reduced to 80.

 

[_clinton]

I don't know why everybody was complaining about how pkt1's onstage game was nerfed. It was an absolutely terrible move anyways, even with Simna's buffs lol. It's a terribad move. It only served as a buff to his recovery...

The move was great at adding pressure to people Ness was chasing...which is one of those things that you should use it for anyway...to make them stay on you and not want to run away...it also allowed for true combos at various ranges because of the cool down time being so much better as well (in the air and on the ground)

So yea, looking at the, only problem I see with the Ness changes is that I'd rather uair combo better instead of kill rather than fair getting those buffs. I only want fair to link together (as in the weak hits combo into the strong hits) and set up for uair juggles/ other moves. Not for it to be an actual combo move.

I was fine with Fair comboing better...and Uair was one of the things that was buffed for killing IMO in Brawl+ because it was a lot easier to string into with the right moves when the buffs were around...

My main problem with Ness before was that he had a lot of combo starters, and combo finishers, but nothing to really continue those combos...

The Fair buff and some other things added to his combos and let him continue them in the last nightly actually...in fact the only thing I didn't like about that nightly was magnet, the yoyo, and Utilt...

Overall I'm happy with the new Ness though.

I'm not...the lack of Thunder being at least having more levels of use is annoying...

Considering fsmash, I still say the move needs growth instead of range. I tested the move with +5 growth on the tip, and it helped it so much and made it really strong. Not sure why Shanus didn't keep it.

Good...at least we agree on this...however I think the thing needs an overall kill buff for more than the tip...

I really think the tip should kill at around the same range that Marth's vBrawl tip does...maybe a little lower...as for the sourest spot...I think it should have Mario's sour spot power...

I like the size of fair now, and I never had any true problems with it. That's me, though.

Meh...when dealing with platforms...I don't want to give the characters I'm fighting with options...

I noticed that you say brawl+ broke Ness's bthrow. How is it broken? When did it kill at in vBrawl? When does it kill now?

It was just screwed more by the gravity buffs in Brawl+...the move had a 45 degree angle knock back or so...

Longer lasting aerials? Never thought of that. Also, as for kill combos, Ness does lack them, one reliable one being dair to uair, and another one that may work being the new PK fire into bair or fsmash. However, Ness does have good edgeguards, such as nair, PK Flash, and dsmash.

As for Ness dthrow data, the base was once 90, and then was reduced to 80.

Well my thinking of longer lasting aerials on 2 of Ness' 5 moves isn't a big deal IMO...Dair is like Thesage said...out for like 5 frames...however it comes out on 16...which if you compare air dodges...a lot of them are in their special animations still to compare...but at least you have a higher chance at hitting them with the sour spot maybe...but I'd rather hit with the strong spot...

However if you aren't going to be able to throw out 2 Nair's in one short hop...which is what made me like it more than some characters like Mario's...than you should at least speed it up...

Also Ness' dash attack at one time did lead to a chance to kill if you landed it right...I'm not sure if it does now...and of course PKT1 did have a chance to lead to a kill as well...but he lost that one...

 

[timothyung]

About the Trainer's Pokemons...
I think their element resistance/weakness need to be removed. It's just stupid how Squirtle, the lightest one, has resistance to the common fire element... and is only weak to certain of Ivy's attacks. Ivy's only resist some of Squirtle's attacks and FLUDD, and is weak to the fire element. Charizard's resistance/weakness is stupid: only resist Ivy's attacks and weak to Squirtle's attacks and FLUDD.
That's something unnecessary, and make some attacks broken on Ivy but bad on Squirtle.