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[Mattnumbers]

@ both of you guys: "ok want a present, kids?" "YEAH!" "too bad, i changed my mind."

Yeah, that is a horrible reason to say you have to do something. That is not a good example. Your even equating peach mains to small children. Think of it this way. Someone says they'll lend you $100, then they go home and realize that they only have $100 left to pay for food. Do you still demand that $100 dollars even if it would be a bad idea for the person to give it to you?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, that's just being rude the other way, Matt. You can't defeat my own logic AND kill yours at the exact same time. so choose one or the other and be happy. please. >.>

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

How about we realize that these similes are irrelevant and actually argue a point here?

Depth for trade offs does not equal buffs for trade offs.

 

[Revven]

I've never really liked trade-offs unless it's warranted. In this case, for G&W, it isn't warranted, neither Peach. Just revert Fair and be done with it, don't touch G&W until he is proven to be "LOLSUX". In which case, it would be wise to develop G&Ws metagame instead of again crying wolf on a character who may not be as 'shallow' as many of you think. You and I have no way of knowing what G&W will become in months to come, for all of us know, he could be a little deeper than what most people are giving him.

He looks shallow because there's literally no metagame development.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETO3-MxMe2Q

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Ok, CrazyCrackers and I decided on something different for now. All we really want is the angle of peach's nair to be more horizontal, so "help with edgeguarding." It wouldnt really make her nair better, just different. At least, this if what CrazyCrackers says. Take it up with him if you want to.

 

[crazycrackers]

Yeah, that is a horrible reason to say you have to do something. That is not a good example. Your even equating peach mains to small children. Think of it this way. Someone says they'll lend you $100, then they go home and realize that they only have $100 left to pay for food. Do you still demand that $100 dollars even if it would be a bad idea for the person to give it to you?

Hes not comparing Peach mains to children. Hes talking about this conceptually.

 

[CountKaiser]

I've never really liked trade-offs unless it's warranted. In this case, for G&W, it isn't warranted, neither Peach. Just revert Fair and be done with it, don't touch G&W until he is proven to be "LOLSUX". In which case, it would be wise to develop G&Ws metagame instead of again crying wolf on a character who may not be as 'shallow' as many of you think. You and I have no way of knowing what G&W will become in months to come, for all of us know, he could be a little deeper than what most people are giving him.

He looks shallow because there's literally no metagame development.

Then what about Falco's new shine? He didn't seem to need it, his laser game was ace, and he could combo just fine without it. Thunderhorse proves that to me.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

yeah about that, I was just kinda it's rude we were promised something, and then that's all the sudden just like "oh really i said that? oh nvm you dont get anything, you ***s."


And really all I want changed in nair is the angle to make it more sideways. that's really all I want now.


edit: count kaiser, I agree with you about the falco thing. just sayin.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Experimenting isn't the issue here.

It's that everyone is going to start wanting more and more unreasonable trade-offs for their characters if people keep getting their way with this trade-off business. There needs to be some sort of line drawn here between what would actually give a character more depth, and what would be sort of cool.

Ok, first you're saying this is an unreasonable trade-off (lets just assume turtle gets nerved as part of it), which a number of people here would disagree with...and we've made our reasonable points why it would benefit the game. Then you go on with the slippery slope argument.

It's a nightly build, experiment. Certainly other characters have had excessive attention paid to them, and one might have made the same argument back then, but I think that the WBR has been well organized enough to make good changes to these characters.


G&W has been touched minimally. Initially, when we didn't have move specific framespeed modification abilities, G&W was set with no ALR so that he couldn't key spam. When we got the code to modify the lag of specific moves it was an uphill battle to ask for him to have standard ALR for all his moves but his key restored back then. People just have some kind of grudge against the character, I guess.

 

[CountKaiser]

They look at G&W, see disjointedness and priority, and immediately think awesome character.

It's why Marth is getting a lot of flack. Priority rules brawl+

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Seriously guys, stop arguing about these similes. There's absolutely no point in it, it's off topic, and irrelevant.

On the subject of Game & Watch, as of now he's pretty much a one trick pony. However that one trick has been polished and perfected, making him a fairly solid character. He's a wall of priority and disjointedness that many characters have a very hard time dealing with.
I still say leave G&W's changes up the G&W mains. If they can provide significant reasoning as to why he's lacking depth and what they will sacrifice to get it, then I'm game for changes. >.>

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I agree with what tatsuman said about GW. and I'll also stop using similes.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ok, first you're saying this is an unreasonable trade-off (lets just assume turtle gets nerved as part of it), which a number of people here would disagree with...and we've made our reasonable points why it would benefit the game. Then you go on with the slippery slope argument.

It's a nightly build, experiment. Certainly other characters have had excessive attention paid to them, and one might have made the same argument back then, but I think that the WBR has been well organized enough to make good changes to these characters.


G&W has been touched minimally. Initially, when we didn't have move specific framespeed modification abilities, G&W was set with no ALR so that he couldn't key spam. When we got the code to modify the lag of specific moves it was an uphill battle to ask for him to have standard ALR for all his moves but his key restored back then. People just have some kind of grudge against the character, I guess.

No, I did not. And I wasn't talking about G&W anyway, I was arguing with Peach players who wanted her nair changed, claiming it would add depth. And it wouldn't, it would just be kind of cool and give her another edgeguarding set up.

And it isn't an argument, it already happened. GHNeko brought up adding depth with trade offs, and suddenly everyone crawls out of the wood work wanting buffs thinly veiled as an attempted to add depth.

There's a line between things that deserve experimentation, and things that are plainly a bad idea. Other than that, pretty much agreed.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

making nair hit more horizontal wouldn't be a buff. it would just be a thing "that deserves experimentation."

 

[crazycrackers]

The fact that everyone is going to start wanting "unreasonable tradeoffs" is irrelevant. We never asked for this, we were OFFERED this. All we want now is for Peach's Nair to hit at a more horrizontal angle so it sets up for edgeguards better. This really isn't that complicated; If you offer someone something, follow through.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

i agree with the cracker.

 

[Revven]

The fact that everyone is going to start wanting "unreasonable tradeoffs" is irrelevant. We never asked for this, we were OFFERED this. All we want now is for Peach's Nair to hit at a more horrizontal angle so it sets up for edgeguards better. This really isn't that complicated; If you offer someone something, follow through.

I never offered it, did any other WBR member besides Ryoko offer it? No, which means not everybody has agreed to it back here. HELL, I didn't even know about it until now.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

i agree with the cracker.

That is SO getting sigged. XD

 

[crazycrackers]

I never offered it, did any other WBR member besides Ryoko offer it? No, which means not everybody has agreed to it back here. HELL, I didn't even know about it until now.

When did I say YOU offered it? Ryoko offered it, which is my point in the first place, AND Slikvik, who is a new WBR member I believe, agreed with it as soon as I made a Nair proposal. We were offered it so it at least deserves a chance.

Also LOL @ Skip2Maloo, especially since I'm hipsanic.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Wait, who the hell offered to trade off with Peach on anything? The only thing I can find is Neko's post in general about trade offs, and another dude arguing to expand Peach's game. The only post by Ryoko I see is saying...that Peach doesn't need aerial adjustments...

I see no WBR member that said anything to imply that they were offering to buff Peach.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

@ crazycrackers:....hipsanic... LAWLZ


crazycrackers....yeah, i agree with tatsuman, when did this guy say he wanted nair changed as well? please show us. POSTS4PROOF

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

lol, i love the internet. too bad i dont own a cpu. (uses sidekick) =)

 

[Deleted member]

Lol @ people saying Peach needs depth. Learn2play.

 

[CountKaiser]

I don't even think they want depth anymore, just a different angle on fair.

 

[crazycrackers]

The Fair buff will probably be replaced by a KB increase on a more awkward move as a trade off.

Slikvik's approval of buffing nair along with ryoko's post are both on page 22 of the peach thread. Ryoko later proposes a sideB buff as well but I don't know if its on that page.

Lol @ people saying Peach needs depth. Learn2play.

This is not what we've been saying.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

countkaiser: you mean nair. no offense. just sayin that u messed up. plz don't hate me!



EDIT: STRAIGHT FROM THE PEACH THREAD:


Quote:


slikvik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycrackers View Post
I don't really care if its taken out since the difference isn't that big. If there IS a trade-off for this where another move gets slightly more knockback as you said there most likely will be I'd think that Nair would be perfect for this. Anyone else agree?
I agree with this <---------------------Slikvik's response right there to above paragraph.

 

[crazycrackers]

Nair hitting at a more horrizontal angle isn't even that big of a deal honestly. I understand the point of view of everyone who opposes this, but we recieved an offer. Its worth testing just once at least.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I'm totally putting a pop group together and calling it Hipsanic. >.>

Back on topic, didn't see that post. Thanks for pointing it out. However, that seemed like more of an afterthought than an offer.
What is the reasoning for the nair buff though? Just because the fair got un-buffed? Worth a test I suppose.

 

[crazycrackers]

Yes that is the reasoning. While its not neccessarily needed, Ryoko gave us that window. Slikvik than solidified it.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

personally i think a knockback increase is uneeded on nair, now that i think about it. I'd prefer a angle change to more horizontal, but maybe that's just me.

 

[crazycrackers]

personally i think a knockback increase is uneeded on nair, now that i think about it. I'd prefer a angle change to more horizontal, but maybe that's just me.

That was my suggestion.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

okay, then we both agree crazycrackers. But I don't really care which you guys test, as long as you at least test it to give it a chance. Thank you! ^__^

 

[Kaitou Ace]

I seriously don't understand why adjusting things in B+, a game where things are adjusted is a big deal. For the last time, this is not a lolz G&W should be k00l so hiz powar lvl kn be ovr 9k!!!1 sorta thing. G&W is very boring. His tactics work, to an extent. Any player with half a brain will know that G&W has very good option but very few of them. Once those approaches are exploited and countered, he's done for. Just get over it and let the G&W mains decide what they want. This is a community game after all. I don't think you'd like it if I asked the WBR to nerf or buff-reject your main. Chill out.

 

[Wingflier]

At the same time, I wouldn't ask for a top tier character with great matchups to be buffed in the first place; so I wouldn't be in that situation.

 

[Yingyay]

If you want more depth ask sakurai for a new moveset. Im not sure what ideas you guys got thats somehow gonna change the way GW is played in all honesty.

 

[crazycrackers]

If you want more depth ask sakurai for a new moveset. Im not sure what ideas you guys got thats somehow gonna change the way GW is played in all honesty.

he doesn't need a new moveset. There is nothing wrong with tradeoffs. And G&W has some moves which are simply amazing and he definately has room for some nerfs on those moves in exchange for buffs on others.

 

[Mattnumbers]

At the same time, I wouldn't ask for a top tier character with great matchups to be buffed in the first place; so I wouldn't be in that situation.

Except nobody is even asking for buffs........

Spoiler

Besides the peach mains

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Changing The Angle The Nair Sends You Is Not A Buff! Got Matt Are U A ********* R-word? God!

 

[Mattnumbers]

Got Matt Are U A ********* R-word? God!

What? I didn't get any of that.

And making it set up for an edgeguard buffs the move, not to mention that until a page ago you wanted to makes its knockback the same as bair.