Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[SymphonicSage12]

I wouldn't mind it if jigg's grab range weren't so huge.

it's a part of her character. don't get grabbed.



@ matt: yeah maybe the lower the base quite a bit on fthrow. but keep bthrow as it is to make it a high percentage killer :D

 

[PKNintendo]

Woah woah woah!
One character at a time!

Let's not start another war here.

About those Lucas changes. PK Freeze seems okay, but psi magnet seems... unnecessary. Can you at least release it so some players can try it out?

 

[leafgreen386]

The thing about that leaf is that if you don't actually improve the best characters or make others better than them you will never end up with a character better than one of them, so unless you consider some of them to be broken improving all the other characters to around their level would only lessen the gap, which is what we want, right?

I personally think the best couple characters should get some nerfs, if not in actual moves you could even just give some of them more hitstun.

Nerf the top couple characters and then buff everyone to around the level of those characters and you will end up with a game with good balanced and characters that aren't ridiculously good.

However nice of an idea that sounds like in theory, characters do not exist in a vacuum. How good a character is can be based solely upon matchups. The characters with the most good matchups against other characters with good matchups are those that are the best. Let's look at this (very simplified) example:

Take a hypothetical smash game with only five characters. Character A has a great combo game and a fairly good recovery, but can have trouble killing. Character B is very easy to gimp, but is amazing at racking damage and killing others. Character C has good kill moves and a good recovery, but mostly has to resort to hit and run and projectile camping tactics to deal damage (this character has a good zoning game), due to a poor combo game. Character D has a gimpable recovery, decent combo game, decent kill power, but is great at pressuring the foe with frame traps and a projectile. And Character E is a heavy with very good kill power, the ability to deal as much damage in a combo as the combo heavy characters, a decent recovery, and a good zoning game, but being a heavy has trouble being combo'd and getting out of pressure once caught.

I recognize that there are many more character archetypes than what I've outlined here, and also that many more factors that go into a matchup than just what I've stated, but just hang with me for a bit; this should be a good little thought experiment.

These characters are all "balanced" in a rudimentary sense. While in a vacuum, their traits seem to even out with both clear advantages and disadvantages. But what happens when you pit them against each other? Most of these matchups are probably fairly close. Every character has clearly exploitable weaknesses and defining strengths. However, what if I told you that the defining aspect of Character D - a good pressure game - allows it to at worst go even and at best soft counter every other character in the game, despite that character's flaws? In what otherwise feels like a very balanced game, there exists a character that is better than everyone else, even if only by a small margin.

And then what if I told you that there were actually six characters in this hypothetical smash game? The 6th character, Character F, has the best defense against pressure in the game, with a frame 1 invincible upB (so usable frame 2 out of shield), a frame 2 jab which combos into a frame 4 dsmash which has decent range and is invincible on the hit frame, and a frame 3 nair. This character does not get pressured. However, this character has a somewhat gimpable recovery, is forced to camp and use hit and run tactics to deal damage (upB, dsmash, and nair all fail to combo into anything, and throws fail to combo into anything after low percents), and has only decent options for kill moves. This character loses or at best goes even against every character in the game except Character D, which it has an advantage against.

So this game now has Character D, which is above the curve, and Character F, which is below the curve. However, Character F serves as a counter to Character D despite having no other advantageous matchups. This game is now balanced. If you were to buff Character F to be able to compete better with the majority of the rest of the cast, it would become the new "Character D," and the game would once again be imbalanced. If you didn't want to have to nerf Character F, you would then have to buff one or more other characters to be able to deal with it, resulting in characters constantly becoming more powerful. The game would be balanced in the end, but it would be because every character is broken, as opposed to the original "balanced but also fair" characters that were in the game when it started.

Sometimes, even when it seems like a character isn't good enough to compete against most characters, they end up having just the right tools necessary to be able to deal with a particularly big threat, which is all they need. When working with a cast of 40 characters, this happens on a much bigger scale, and it is in fact possible to buff characters that are below the curve without putting them above the curve, however, these buffs must be handed out very carefully, such that they target the appropriate matchups where the character needs help.

Currently, we're aiming for just getting every character to "feel" viable, to give them tools they can use that will let them compete. Once extensive matchup data becomes available, we can actually target specific matchups that we deem to be too one-sided or otherwise a hindrance to game balance. If you truly believe your character is below the curve right now, please, speak up, and we'll try to bring them into line using the tools we have available (if it is indeed deemed that they need it). But as we approach the Release Candidate process, most characters are feeling very viable as it is now, and there is only so much we plan on doing before just letting the metagame develop and waiting on matchup data.

On a lighter note...

Edit: the best target for balancing towards seems like DK. he was great out of the box and has clear weaknesses, but his strengths are greater than them. perhaps a better comparison would be to today's ganon, though. he's got obvious weaknesses but is especially strong. both of them look to be in amazing shape but have obvious flaws that don't stop them from being viable. they're so...perfect.

So in other words... we should make everyone a heavy.

Instant balance just add heavy!

=p

 

[Mattnumbers]

Woah woah woah!
One character at a time!

Let's not start another war here.

About those Lucas changes. PK Freeze seems okay, but psi magnet seems... unnecessary. Can you at least release it so some players can try it out?

I never actually did all those PK Freeze changes.

But I did increase the size of Magnet, and with a bit more speed it could be a useful move.
I think I have a gct around here with the Psimagnet code somewhere........I'll post it if I can find it.

 

[PKNintendo]

So in other words... we should make everyone a heavy.

Instant balance just add heavy!

=p

Dude... Why not just ADD Heavy in Brawl+. And DR. Heavy.

 

[Plum]

I never actually did all those PK Freeze changes.

But I did increase the size of Magnet, and with a bit more speed it could be a useful move.
I think I have a gct around here with the Psimagnet code somewhere........I'll post it if I can find it.

But WHY does Lucas need it?
The move can be made useful, as you seem to have done, but WHY does the move need to be useful?

It already has situational uses (situations where he wouldn't be punished for healing), and serves as a great mixup to his recovery, why does it NEED to be any better than that?

Same with the PK Freeze. Why does this useless move NEED a use? Not every move has to be useful, especially on a character who is already considered viable. Also, Lucas already has an great edgegaurding game, so I don't see the purpose in having PK Freeze edgegaurd as well...

 

[SymphonicSage12]

and jiggz fthrow doesn't kill at like 80 off the side. Only if you have bad DI.

 

[PKNintendo]

But WHY does Lucas need it?
The move can be made useful, as you seem to have done, but WHY does the move need to be useful?

It already has situational uses (situations where he wouldn't be punished for healing), and serves as a great mixup to his recovery, why does it NEED to be any better than that?

Same with the PK Freeze. Why does this useless move NEED a use? Not every move has to be useful, especially on a character who is already considered viable. Also, Lucas already has an great edgegaurding game, so I don't see the purpose in having PK Freeze edgegaurd as well...

He has a point...

 

[Mattnumbers]

He doesn't NEED it.

No one NEEDED to make Brawl+

We all don't NEED to play smash

Just because you don't HAVE to do something doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

And It's a good idea because it increases his options, which makes him a deeper character, but at the same time doesn't make him all that much better.

 

[timothyung]

If a move is worse than another in every and any situation, it needs to be tweaked.
Now prove PK Freeze is a move like this, then the buff should be considered.

 

[MK26]

Make Lucas' psi magnet the same angle/damage/kb as melee falco's shine, except not jc-able. instant awesome.

also, i'm still against walkoff stages becoming legal. Just sayin'.

Also, for ****s and giggles, try out Jungle Japes on 10x speed.

 

[Arkaether]

He doesn't NEED it.

No one NEEDED to make Brawl+

We all don't NEED to play smash

Just because you don't HAVE to do something doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

And It's a good idea because it increases his options, which makes him a deeper character, but at the same time doesn't make him all that much better.

I'd like to point out that just because we don't HAVE to do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.

And what options? Options you have to create specifically that he could easily have done a different way if you hadn't artificially added that option in this first place? Remember, this **** ain't DEPTH. My post is starting to lose its effect, obviously, seeing as how much people are throwing out the D-word again.

Also, Lucas DOESN'T NEED IT. And there is a difference between making B+ or playing smash because you WANT TO, and making a unnecessary change to a character that results in no net change except for an unwanted playstyle difference because you WANT TO. We're not going to change things just because we "don't NEED" to. We're going to change them because we NEED to.

Characters don't NEED complete movesets.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I'd like to point out that just because we don't HAVE to do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.

And what options? Options you have to create specifically that he could easily have done a different way if you hadn't artificially added that option in this first place? Remember, this **** ain't DEPTH. My post is starting to lose its effect, obviously, seeing as how much people are throwing out the D-word again.

Also, Lucas DOESN'T NEED IT. And there is a difference between making B+ or playing smash because you WANT TO, and making a unnecessary change to a character that results in no net change except for an unwanted playstyle difference because you WANT TO. We're not going to change things just because we "don't NEED" to. We're going to change them because we NEED to.

Characters don't NEED complete movesets.

But it does add to his playstyle. Psimagnet is a very unique attack in that it both changes your momentum and has a large hitbox that is actually in front of the character. The move is great for edgeguarding and can actually knock them off the stage on stages such as battlefield and PS2 that have platforms.

It is my belief that there should be no such thing as a useless special (provided that that rule covers the entire cast and not just certain characters). Special moves are so unique that having a useless one is something that could easily give a character more depth (yes I said it). Not making them useful is wasted potential.

Also I'm sick of explaining to people why PK Freeze is overshadowed by other moves he has and therefor is a useless move, so just trust me on that.

Anyways I will be back later today but right now I must leave.

 

[Arkaether]

Why do you want an addition to the playstyle of a perfectly solid character? I don't care how many arguments you raise concerning the failure of PK Freeze to stand up to any other move in his arsenal, the fact is that you can't raise any points why Lucas fails to be a perfectly solid and competent, viable character.

How many Marths do you see asking for bthrow buffs? How many Jiggs mains have asked for sing/dtilt buffs? How many wild pokemon mains have you seen asking for a down-b move?

There is no reason why a special's usefulness should be prioritized over the usefulness of a typical move, especially considering that typical moves are often used FAR MORE than specials. Specials, just like normal moves, can range from extremely useful, to useful, to situational, to very situational, to worthless, and even to NONEXISTENT on some characters.

You have not raised a single point concerning WHY lucas should have a buff to PK Freeze, EXCEPT that PK Freeze is outshadowed by other moves. And despite your idyllic aspiration of making complete movesets for all character, it will never happen. There will be situational moves, there will be useless moves, and in the end, there is no reason to buff PK Freeze aside from "oh it's not useful so why not superficially make it useful for no real purpose?"



Edit: Also, since Matt is gone, I'd like to raise a point. I used to be a BIG advocate of darkness rest, since it got rid of elemental weaknesses and I'd thought it'd look badass. Well, I was wrong. I don't like it. Darkness rest doesn't sit well with me. It doesn't "click". It doesn't look nice, it doesn't look epic, and I want my good old fashioned epic fire rest back.

BUT, the elemental weaknesses.

WHICH IS WHY I am suggesting, from Dark_Sonic's most enlightened suggestion, this following change:
[06:06:03] <Dark_Sonic> I wonder if we could make exploding rest <3

We have Project SA. Why not?

 

[Plum]

Aren't explosions fire based?
I know Red Pikmin survive any explosion so me thinks they are considered fire.

 

[MK26]

Ark, dont even say that when we're toying with a jc shine for fox.

Also, I wholly expect to be ignored again.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

why does fox need jc shine? the main use was dair>jc shine>wavedash> repeat. Does he really need that again?

 

[Revven]

He doesn't "need" it, you're right, but if people want a more skilled based game, with more tech skill involved, it is needed. Thus, Fox is getting a Dair nerf in exchange for JC Shine. Dair would no longer be able to lead into Usmash, you would need to Dair > JC Shine > Usmash if you wanted to KO with Usmash from Dair. It is adding tech skill to the game which is what everyone complains about when they play this game.

Keep UP people! I have explained this at least 2 times in this thread now...

 

[Dark Sonic]

Toying with =/= implimenting.

I hope you guys realize that sometimes we're just seeing what we can actually do with our tools and not actually considering those changes. We always ask for feedback on these changes and if people are up in arms against it we simply take them out. We've tried out crazier **** before (Sonic upsmash?) and we've taken them out when people protested (although I personally loved spiking upsmash )

why does fox need jc shine? the main use was dair>jc shine>wavedash> repeat. Does he really need that again?

You don't actually play melee do you? <_<

 

[cookieM0Nster]

jc shine + bair = win. and there are lots of other combos. LOTS.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Arkaether, I hate how you ignore posts and the points in them and then claim that people never made them.

I've been talking about how Lucas has fallen behind the curve for the last couple pages. Frankly, he is a fine character without these changes, but I feel that if we can improve a characters options without actually making them all that much better, that's a good thing. Especially when a character isn't even considered all that good anyways.

I actually think that Lucas should get a PKT1 nerf so that it doesn't completely **** some character like it does right now.

 

[Strong Badam]

also i love JC shine for fox. puts more technical skill into fox, which is what he SHOULD be all about (it's what he was about in 64 and melee).
now all we need is wavedashing.... rofl. it's a joke ppl stfu.

 

[Alphatron]

Here's the thing. There are some characters who are considered amazing and don't get any nerfs because it would destroy their character.

Then there are characters who are considered fine and dandy and do not get any buffs because they don't need them.

When the future of brawl+ shows how big the gap is between those types of characters with results, then we can expect to see reasonable changes to respective chars.

That being said, I see no reason to use Ganon in a tourney setting if Snake is still bttr

 

[PKNintendo]

I still need to see proof that he's fallen behind the curve...

I've seen a Lucas take on a Falco and Wario (good players mind you)
and do well.

Nerfing PKT1 isn't a good idea. If you can provide a good enough reason to buff psi magnet, they might do it!

Again PK freeze seems strange to me. Why PK freeze when you can PKT1, Dair etc. Of course more options are always nice but...

 

[Mattnumbers]

I prioritize Psimagnet and Zair hitbox above PK Freeze, since unless you did something really weird with it like make the hitbox linger for a bit it would never be that great. The buffs I thought of using nothing weird is just one way you could make it at least situational.

Also, mind you that below average isn't really that bad, since half the cast is below average. I just feel that if they are considered below average that is a good sign that buffing them slightly but giving them more options/depth/whatever you want to call it wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[Alphatron]

My problem with freeze is that it has virtually no use, kinda like vbrawl raptor boost. At least kill off the top well if you're gonna toss my frozed opponent high into the air.

 

[Finns7]

We can't just change things because "it doesn't make sense". For example Snake users are used to the ftilit and utilt hitboxes for a year and half. If you change that many people will be whining. Learn the hitboxes. Though now with PSA, we can add effects. Hopefully we can add effects to those "nonsense" hitboxes

Alot of things dont really make sense in brawl to me.......Lucas fsmash (he is a little boy, magic I understand being powerful but plain physical attacks nah) that is just smash. But in a competetive fighting video game....-_- .

And dude Ive played the game since it came out and I adjusted to it. That doesnt make it right though in my eyes, some of you guys act like snake cant gain something better and more legit than utilt___________________________. Snake is heavy and his recovery sucks blah blah, WHY does he weigh so much anyway??? Its smash but some things hold true. Look at DK, D3 and Ganon ohh and lets not forget bowser (who shouldnt be so **** floaty) they are and should be the true heavies. Snake getting a lower wieght or something would make him die easier sure, but it would prob help him get out of combos.

I think there is something we can do for snake, while removing ___________________________________ of the utilt and replacing it with ________.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

My problem with freeze is that it has virtually no use, kinda like vbrawl raptor boost. At least kill off the top well if you're gonna toss my frozed opponent high into the air.

its not as useless as MK's jab, and i dont beleive we're gonna change that
at least freeze has SOME use
i'd be fine wiht speeding it up
is it possible to controll how long you freeze someone for?

 

[Nybb]

I swear, more than half of this thread is arguments about Earthbound characters.

When can we expect a new nightly/weekly/whatever?

 

[PKNintendo]

When we get a firmer grasp of PSA.

Okay, let's talk about someone else. NOT earthboundy.
I like Mario's Backthrow angle change.

 

[Finns7]

Seems like it lol, I dont think pk freeze needs anything, lucas has already been built up pretty nice to be viable if a SKILLED player enters a tourney. Not just turning on the game or playin a couple matches and thinking every move has to connect combo **** ravage ect.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Lets talk about Jiggs Fthrow please.

And the WBR has a tendency to forget things sometimes, so I just want a WBR member to recognize my ideas in some way.

 

[Arkaether]

Arkaether, I hate how you ignore posts and the points in them and then claim that people never made them.

I've been talking about how Lucas has fallen behind the curve for the last couple pages. Frankly, he is a fine character without these changes, but I feel that if we can improve a characters options without actually making them all that much better, that's a good thing. Especially when a character isn't even considered all that good anyways.

I actually think that Lucas should get a PKT1 nerf so that it doesn't completely **** some character like it does right now.

Matt, I hate how you attempt to skew my words. I never ignored your post, or the points you made. I merely pointed out that all the points you made were, well, pointless.

For one, in your first sentence of the second paragraph, you say he's fallen behind the curve. THEN you say he's a fine character. Sometimes you have to accept the fact that half of the entire roster is below average, and that's how it's going to stay. A needless buff to "give him more options" is still needless if he's already a solid character with a solid playstyle. Any other changes to give more "options" in situational circumstances where other options could have worked just as well is what they call pointless. I know sometimes that having the ability to change so many things makes Brawl+ appealing, and you want your character as best as possible, but accept that not everything you want is a good idea.

Basically, give A SINGLE GOOD REASON as to why lucas needs a PK Freeze buff, that IS NOT "BECAUSE THE MOVE SUCKS". That's ALL the WBR needs. That's ALSO why the WBR is ignoring you.

Edit: As for jiggs fthrow, I'd rather have higher base and lowered growth, whereas bthrow is lower base and higher growth, but hell if I care enough to push for a change either way. Keep bthrow as it is, and I don't mind what you do to fthrow. Might wanna get veril/glick's opinions first, though.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Matt, I hate how you attempt to skew my words. I never ignored your post, or the points you made. I merely pointed out that all the points you made were, well, pointless.

For one, in your first sentence of the second paragraph, you say he's fallen behind the curve. THEN you say he's a fine character. Sometimes you have to accept the fact that half of the entire roster is below average, and that's how it's going to stay. A needless buff to "give him more options" is still needless if he's already a solid character with a solid playstyle. Any other changes to give more "options" in situational circumstances where other options could have worked just as well is what they call pointless. I know sometimes that having the ability to change so many things makes Brawl+ appealing, and you want your character as best as possible, but accept that not everything you want is a good idea.

By fallen behind the curve = below average

And I feel that every character at this point is viable.

A Zair hitbox gives him more range than a fair and would be able to get through offenses.
Psimagnet can be used when on stage to both knock them offstage and set up for a Dsmash edgeguard
A PK Freeze that makes them lose elevation does what its supposed to, which PKT2 does not.
All of them help mix up his game
None of them are "pointless" And there are plenty of situations where they would be better than an existing option, just not enough to actually make him one of the best in the game.

EDIT:

Basically, give A SINGLE GOOD REASON as to why lucas needs a PK Freeze buff, that IS NOT "BECAUSE THE MOVE SUCKS". That's ALL the WBR needs. That's ALSO why the WBR is ignoring you.

Edit: As for jiggs fthrow, I'd rather have higher base and lowered growth, whereas bthrow is lower base and higher growth, but hell if I care enough to push for a change either way. Keep bthrow as it is, and I don't mind what you do to fthrow. Might wanna get veril/glick's opinions first, though.

I never said that Lucas needs it, I said that it would be a good thing for him to get it because:
1. His metagame would benefit from it
2. There's no major reason why he SHOULDN'T get it, besides saying "He's fine". He obviously isn't considered "Too good", many other characters have received buffs when they were considered fine and Lucas shouldn't be the exception
3. Not having it useful is wasted potential

And the WBR isn't "Ignoring me", how would you know if they were anyways.

 

[Alphatron]

Hopefully the SA will apply to Bowser's backwards crawl too.

 

[Pyrostormer]

a Zair hitbox is the ONLY thing lucas needs, and i've been saying this forever.

-stingers

edit:

I've seen a Lucas take on a Falco.

were you talking about me? *hope*

 

[PKNintendo]

a Zair hitbox is the ONLY thing lucas needs, and i've been saying this forever.

-stingers

edit:

were you talking about me? *hope*

I believe so.

 

[JCaesar]

a Zair hitbox is the ONLY thing lucas needs, and i've been saying this forever.

-stingers

edit:

were you talking about me? *hope*

He was. Someone posted a link to your MM with Thunderhorse earlier. I dunno if you saw it yet but it's on my youtube.

And I agree about the zair thing.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I feel the zair is the most important change, but I would still like to see the Psimagnet change as well.

I'll leave changing PK Freeze up to the WBR to decide whether they should do it or not.

 

[VietGeek]

Vietgeek, does that mean that once we can edit props we can give Lucas's zair a hitbox?

I liked to say it's already been edited to the point of completion. The worst that can happen to it other than it being simply forgotten or rejected is for its angle to be nerfed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRWTrljeyDw