Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[Suic]

Wow, if the list is that long then I can understand why it will be a while...I won't ask you to go into any detail, but I'm surprised you consider some of those stages salvageable *cough* 75m *cough* And it's interesting that Spear Pillar is still being worked on...I thought just freezing the stage was enough to pull it at least into competitive consideration, if only as a CP. It would be great to see Norfair frozen..I've always thought of that as a possibly very interesting and neutral (when frozen of course) stage.

 

[FrozenHobo]

norfair won't be frozen. SP is still in the idea fase, but i do want to do stuff with it. 75m will be a doubles only stage when i get done with it.

a lot of these changes will be considerably more than simple freezes (SP still isn't viable frozen).

we have some other stages that are pretty much "done", but when actually play tested the results were less than stunning. we want our stages to be good to play on.

DP is one of these that needs more work.

 

[BRLNK88]

Yes, don't mess with Norfair, its fine the way it is.

 

[Suic]

norfair won't be frozen. SP is still in the idea fase, but i do want to do stuff with it. 75m will be a doubles only stage when i get done with it.

a lot of these changes will be considerably more than simple freezes (SP still isn't viable frozen).

we have some other stages that are pretty much "done", but when actually play tested the results were less than stunning. we want our stages to be good to play on.

DP is one of these that needs more work.

I suppose you're right about SP..the bottom portion creates the same effect as the cave area that so invalidates temple for competitive play (though makes it quite fun when in a party setting where the game isn't taken seriously). I'll be interested to see about norfair...I suppose that the only thing that makes it invalid (considering that planet zebes: brinstar is competitive despite the lava) is the lava wave that forces both characters into the tube at some point. Yes I would imagine that the original 75m would practically have to be scrapped; but I suppose I will get to see them at some point down the road. An interesting idea would be to implement Dantarions level replacement code in and (while keeping the default as the competitively viable edited stage) allow the player to hold a button to load the original unedited stage in case they wanted to play it for fun.

 

[FrozenHobo]

75m is right now planned to be just the top part with ledges. however, i still have to get more gameplay testing.

norfair will be super sexy once we find the hitbox data.

 

[Willz]

I love how up to date the PAL B+ is...

 

[BRLNK88]

Willz... I think I've heard of you, have you ever faced Izaw?

Just downloaded everything 702 related, new stages are awesome, good work guys!

 

[Evilagram]

Just wondering, is there an updated text file? I want the updates but I want to keep the codes for custom menu backgrounds.

Second.

Except I want to keep the codes for stage expansions.

 

[BRLNK88]

Couple of character related issues:

1. Toon Link: His nair is honestly too weak, it takes forever to kill with. His bair however is better, and his dair has some cool magic effects.

2. Kirby: D throw has too much vertical knockback, it can't be followed by utilt at low percentages.

I do however like the new Marth, feels more like Melee Marth which is great.

 

[Wind Owl]

inb4 Veril's iron hammer of "no more balance changes"

 

[VietGeek]

Toon Link's N-air isn't suppose to kill: it's suppose to like rack up damage, set up for strings, be a semi-decent out-of-shield option and is suppose to make Toon Link extremely obnoxious. It's also a semi-meaty move so you can cut through spotdodges or whatever. In the air U-air is the undisputed king of all meaty moves though (well...Link's is better but whatever lol).

Toon Link is pretty balanced imo. He has trouble landing kill moves but the new boundary changes help him out SO MUCH. Also he received a lot of buffs to useless moves (dash attack and dtilt; pretty old changes btw) to facilitate his combo game. Toon Link has enough tools to not get TOO stale but not much else considering he's already pretty strong (probably not the best but he makes a good soft counter character imo).

3. Glad to hear that. We'll just not talk about the implications of that just yet *sits looking at 6 months pass by*

/inside joke no one understands

obv

 

[CountKaiser]

Couple of character related issues:

1. Toon Link: His nair is honestly too weak, it takes forever to kill with. His bair however is better, and his dair has some cool magic effects.

2. Kirby: D throw has too much vertical knockback, it can't be followed by utilt at low percentages.

I do however like the new Marth, feels more like Melee Marth which is great.

2. Have you been following up with uair? That's what I've been doing.

At higher percents, I just go for Fthrow, since that sets up nicely for hammer techchasing.

 

[God of Humility]

Is the text file provided on the site the good one with the fixes? It only says 7.0 at the top.

 

[VietGeek]

It looks updated to me. Go for it.

 

[God of Humility]

It looks updated to me. Go for it.

Thanks a lot. I guess the same can be said about the pac files available on the same page?

 

[Veril]

2. Kirby: D throw has too much vertical knockback, it can't be followed by utilt at low percentages.

In general, assume that when a throw has higher kb, its because said throw has an infinite otherwise. That is, in fact, the case here.

inb4 Veril's iron hammer of "no more balance changes"

^^ 6-months. We gotta allow the B+ character roster to remain stable to allow for legitimate metagame development to take place.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

norfair will be super sexy once we find the hitbox data.

Yes, indeed it will be. For those want to know a little more about that's going to happen, here's a mockup: CLICKY!
Aside from that, they are trying to get rid of just the wave from the background and the capsule that goes along with it. And if someone can figure out how to do it, make it so only one hazard can exist at any given time.

And I'm surprised that Castle Seige didn't get frozen on the 7.0.2 update, if it was already planned to be frozen. It takes like 2 seconds to add in the line to freeze it. (I've been using a frozen Castle Seige since 5.0, actually.) Perhaps it wasn't decided on completely at the time?

 

[RPGsFTW]

And I'm surprised that Castle Seige didn't get frozen on the 7.0.2 update, if it was already planned to be frozen. It takes like 2 seconds to add in the line to freeze it. (I've been using a frozen Castle Seige since 5.0, actually.) Perhaps it wasn't decided on completely at the time?

****, Chaos, would you mind linking me to your text so I can have the new stages along with the frozen CS? I love that stage frozen.

 

[proteininja]

I just finished playing 4 hours of random vs random matches on random stage select set to the neutral stages. I like this build. It doesn't feel too different from near gold. Things I noted:

-thank you for the bowser aerial upb buff. Thankfully my opponents will no longer pwn my soul when I connect with an aerial upb. I don't think you should be punished for connecting with a move, and aparently neither does the WBR.

-I don't know if it is just me, but I am seeing many many instances of the tumble animation not "tumbling" I remember seeing this from time to time before, but now I'm not sure if it is just my perception, but it seems to be happening 10 to 15 times a match. Has anyone else noticed this?

-Charizard neutral air is lulzy.

-lucas feels unchanged

-mario feels good. I don't know if he got a physics buff or if I'm getting better with him, but he is comboing very smoothly.

-once again i don't know if it is me or physics changes, but yoshi feels beastly.

- what is up with DP? rain animation gets frozen.

- on summit+ the slipping makes your pivot take like 2-3 seconds. It is going to get banned with stuff like that.

Thank you very much Veril and the rest. I am a happy man.

 

[Veril]

Castle Siege should be frozen!

The only characters with different physics are Wolf, Marth, and Falcon.

Lucas was nearly completely unchanged from 6.0. The only thing done to Lucas was f-smash 361° -> 35°. Mario on the other hand was buffed via throw angle changes and lowered SDIability on his dair. In addition, non-spiking fair and d-smash got sakurai angle fixes.

DP+ needs to be redone. Summit+ slipping is why I've recommended it be placed in CP/Ban.

 

[FrozenHobo]

- what is up with DP? rain animation gets frozen.

- on summit+ the slipping makes your pivot take like 2-3 seconds. It is going to get banned with stuff like that.

i'm going to take these 2.

DP should not have been put in. i'm not sure why the rain is glitching, but DP+ was not scheduled for release in this version

as for summit, the base is the only part that causes that. you can still pivot fine on the plats. i don't believe that that is enough to warrant making it banned. i actually feel that it is a fine CP stage, but i do agree with veril that it needs more field testing before a decision on its legality can be truly reached.

 

[BRLNK88]

Toon Link's N-air isn't suppose to kill: it's suppose to like rack up damage, set up for strings, be a semi-decent out-of-shield option and is suppose to make Toon Link extremely obnoxious.

In vBrawl it had semi-decent killing power, which is the way I liked it. That's why I was complaining.
But to reiterate his bair is great now. Ken combos are much easier.

 

[VietGeek]

I was a TL main in vBrawl; it realistically should NEVER kill.

 

[Blank Mauser]

If you aren't X Top tier character in vBrawl, a lot of moves realistically should never kill...

 

[Veril]

Oh Sonic, we really tried to do right by you in this set. What they did to you in vBrawl was cruel and tragic. Its ok now. You aren't horribly sloppy anymore.


Sonic had so many silly issues even in 6.0. Up-smash autoescapes, second jab not linking from the first, throws that could **** a tiny handful of characters via CGs but simply didn't work right on the rest of the cast, a fair that was massively hindered by its reverse hitbox...

So glad those are fixed.

 

[BRLNK88]

I was a TL main in vBrawl; it realistically should NEVER kill.

Maybe my opponents just had bad DI...
>_>

 

[VietGeek]

If you aren't X Top tier character in vBrawl, a lot of moves realistically should never kill...

I don't get the joke. ;(

TL's Nair has low base (20) to begin with...it'll just never get to the percent to kill or even be "semi-decent."

Btw, some things I just want to *kindly* point out:

There are a couple of flaws with this logic.

Having the texture/pac data on the SD card doesn't truly make load time "static." It will not reduce load time if other data is in the loading queue, such as a stage transformation, or any occasion of loading data mid-match. Lylat Cruise is the poster child of this crime.

If that data is already loaded, such as a double Sheik/double Zelda team, then you'll wind up with a Transform time that is actually better than what Ryoko's (actually Magus's) change was originally.

The whole point of that Transform change before was to make *vulnerability* time static, which does not change regardless of how long/short the actual loading time of the other half is. This minimizes the random load time variable to the other players' ability to use downtime to charge up special moves or get into a favorable position. With the normal Transform time, the factor of what you can do to punish it based on the load time which is *still* subject to randomness greatly increases. The previously changed Transform before also left you vulnerable for a very extended amount of time, enough to punish if you did not the proper space, or are against someone with an annoying projectile such as Pit/Falco. It was only "unpunishable" if the player was actually using it correctly as intended. The change was done because the mid-game loading mechanisms of Brawl are flawed in a way that SD loaders are only capable of making imperfect band-aid fixes, and I'm disappointed that that logic was already forgotten.

I too would like to hear the reason for why the original changes made by Ryoko and Magus were rid of. Since I wasn't involved in the decision-making for this, I genuinely just want to hear out a reason.

Also...

what ever happened to the Link+ Fair change? I don't know about anyone else, but I was sure that was gonna be in the set slightly modified or not. I wanted to start playing Link+ as a CP character in Gold after hearing that the change had...at least to my understanding...a genuine chance to be implemented. Now I kinda have second thoughts.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

The slipperiness of the ice is nothing once you know how to use it to your advantage. There are things that are worse on ice, and things that are better. And you should never do a pivot out of a full run on ice (thus having the 2-2 seconds of lag), anyway; that just shows that you don't know how to play on ice. But if one accidentally does that, one can just jump to get out of that state... It's not that hard once you know the ins and outs of the ice physics.

And RPGsFTW, if you, or anyone else, that wants to add the frozen Castle Seige yourself without waiting for an update, then...
Add this line between the fourth and fifth line of the Level Freezer code:
2A180F3A 00000019

So immediately after "2A180F3A 00000017" and before "0416A904 3F2AAAAB".

EDIT: I forgot to comment about An Easy Frag's post: I agree with it 100%! :D (I totally forgot about the original purpose of the transformation edit, as well as the other in-game loading.)

 

[CountKaiser]

I can attest to protienninja about the tumble animation not tumbling. Not sure what's causing it, but I have seen it.

Was CS really supposed to be frozen?

Was G&W even changed at all in this? He feels the same.

 

[VietGeek]

CS had some admirable support for the first transformation to be frozen there. So probably...although now I think it might be too small for doubles lol.

The tumble animation is probably made by some tinkering by Yeroc on his Airdodge during Tumble code. I'm guessing it'll be fixed sometime soon will Yeroc gets around to it (it's a very minor glitch lol...btw Marth in fixed tumble animation = air bed obv).

 

[RPGsFTW]

Thanks, Chaos.

I hope the changelist is up soon!

 

[MK26]

castle siege frozen? please, no. Just give it the zelda-sheik treatment - putting the pac file on the sd card massively speeds up loading time, thus cutting the time spent in the transformation phase.

Also, if for some reason you are running full speed on the bottom of Summit+ and for some other reason you desperately ned to pivot and run the other way...pivot grab. Bye-bye massive lag, hello, smaller lag. Or play Ice Climbers. Those **s****s don't slip on ice.

 

[CountKaiser]

CS had some admirable support for the first transformation to be frozen there. So probably...although now I think it might be too small for doubles lol.

The tumble animation is probably made by some tinkering by Yeroc on his Airdodge during Tumble code. I'm guessing it'll be fixed sometime soon will Yeroc gets around to it (it's a very minor glitch lol...btw Marth in fixed tumble animation = air bed obv).

First transformation? You mean the place with the PS edges that eat you? Eeeewwwww.

Just leave it as is.

 

[FrozenHobo]

castle siege frozen? please, no. Just give it the zelda-sheik treatment - putting the pac file on the sd card massively speeds up loading time, thus cutting the time spent in the transformation phase.

Also, if for some reason you are running full speed on the bottom of Summit+ and for some other reason you desperately ned to pivot and run the other way...pivot grab. Bye-bye massive lag, hello, smaller lag. Or play Ice Climbers. Those **s****s don't slip on ice.

or crouch -> turn. the ice adds a lot more technical skill to the mix.

or play ICs. they're clearly broken.

 

[JCaesar]

I too would like to hear the reason for why the original changes made by Ryoko and Magus were rid of. Since I wasn't involved in the decision-making for this, I genuinely just want to hear out a reason.

Also...

what ever happened to the Link+ Fair change? I don't know about anyone else, but I was sure that was gonna be in the set slightly modified or not. I wanted to start playing Link+ as a CP character in Gold after hearing that the change had...at least to my understanding...a genuine chance to be implemented. Now I kinda have second thoughts.

^^
2nded, all of this.

 

[VietGeek]

First transformation? You mean the place with the PS edges that eat you? Eeeewwwww.

Just leave it as is.

Btw, I think Perfect Chaos fixed those edges. So yeah...it's kinda cute now imo.

 

[The_Guide]

I can third proteinninja's observation. I can also add that this causes cpus to fall to their doom, as they don't know how to jump out of it.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I like the Summit's slidiness.

PK Fire edge cancels on the summit are lulzy.


On a more important note, I've been following this project since editing knock back was still an issue. I've mostly been lurking, only posting to get into a few small debates when I felt it needed.

However, I've got to take this time to thank the team, from past to present. So much work has been put into this project to make it such an amazing game, and I believe it has succeeded.
Not only has the B+ team done an amazing amount of work in the visible parts of the game, but they've also had to put up with near constant criticisms, fixes, and old fashioned *****ing.

So for this, for everyone who has put work into Brawl+ I must say...

Thanks for putting up with us for so long. And thanks for the hundreds of hours of fun my friends and I have had with it.

 

[PKNintendo]

Good job gentlemen/ladies.

I canot play for a while but wa Ness changed in any way?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

So I noticed something. The original ledge limit code (the one that caused freeze issues with some people) made it so tether ledge-grabs counted towards the counter. But for this newer ledge limit code, tethers don't count towards it, so anyone with a tether is essentially allowed 3 more ledge grabs than those without.
...just pointing that out so people know. Not sure if it calls for a fix or not.