Brawl - the game where no one ever dies?

[jmh_86]

I doubt spike spikes will return.

Spikes are hands down my favorite way to kill people. What would smash be without a good 'ole Ganondorf Thunder Drop?

 

[Yuna]

How is it bad "just doesn't work"?

Read the parts about the gaps between "Hard to kills" and "Easy to kills" widening. Just because you're hard to kill does not mean you're automatically a hard hitter/show character or vice versa. Case in point: Pichu vs. Fox.

Maybe you've played better Bowsers/Worse Peach's than me. I don't find her a lot easier to kill, except for some vertical moves.

Ease to KO (to knock you off the screen so that you instantly die from a move) is not something that is debatable. With or without DI, the same move will KO Peach much earlier to at least slightly earlier than it will KO Bowser, regardless of player skill.

Exactly. So Sonic could very well be the only one with the "stuff after up-b's" then.

I suggest you re-read my initial post (and every single one since then). I have never claimed that Sonic probably isn't the only one (or, well, one of three, one of which isn't even confirmed yet) with "stuff after Up B". In fact, as I pointed out in the OP, the fact that he's the only one is what makes it broken! It's not broken if everyone has it unless the game itself breaks. But if only one character has it...

Just for the record to whomever it concerns, the "freeze-frame" stuff was in PAL Melee. It's no big deal.

Say what? What freeze frame stuff? The only freeze frame that was changed, AFAIK, from NTSC to PAL for Melee was that Peach's Up B received freeze frames.

Which is why some lighter characters have better recoveries, like Sonics.

Weight does not automatically make an impact on your recovery. Case in point: Peach. She's, what, 10th heaviest?

Because that would be boring. If we use that logic, Almost everyone has a melee special, a projectile special and a reflecting one. Why not make them all the same attack and be done with it?

The point is not that they're giving him something new. The point is that, in my perception, this new thing is broken.

I would have thought being able to attack after dodging an increase in airial combat skills.

You must've dodged a very laggy move if you're able to hit your opponent afterwards. Smart people won't spam out random smashes at airdodgers.

Which is why Rest is broken, Sing is broken, DK's headbut is broken (Smash someone stuck into the ground, holy hell!) but, oh wait, it really isn't once we have a large group of people play for a lot longer than a few short matches to work things out. There is no way ANYTHING can be said to be broken in Brawl's current position.

Sing is not broken. It's slow as hell and does not hit aerial opponents. The only thing it can do is sing-stall but you're not really invincible for that long during ledge-singing.

How is DK's headbutt broken, anyway? Anyway, in my opinion, and I do not in any way claim I'm perfect, it's broken.

We do? Pass me a copy! Oh wait, no we don't, we had about 3 days with a version of the game that had a very reduced number of playable characters, small stage choices, 2 minute matches and unwieldy controller options.

We do NOT "have the beta"

My point is that we've had people play the beta now. And while they might change things, the beta gave us a pretty good idea of what the final product will be like.

Critisize is all you want, but from what we've seen and know, it's not broken.

Please present proof of that instead of trying to steer the argument in other directions.

No, you just don't flinch, like Gigabowser.

It's been pointed out that maybe what Gimpyfish & co experienced was a glitch.

We'll have to wait til it's released and find out.

Nice counter argument there. Obviously, this wasn't the best way of combating the problem with fast characters good at KO:ing and/or hard to kill.

So using that was an argument for why making it generally harder to KO is a good thing is a moot point.

 

[Idfection]

I suggest you re-read my initial post (and every single one since then). I have never claimed that Sonic probably isn't the only one (or, well, one of three, one of which isn't even confirmed yet) with "stuff after Up B". In fact, as I pointed out in the OP, the fact that he's the only one is what makes it broken! It's not broken if everyone has it unless the game itself breaks. But if only one character has it...

What he's saying is, peach is the only one who can float, and she's not broken. So being the only one to own something doesn't merit brokeness. Smash is all about individuality.

Which leads me to....

Sing is not broken. It's slow as hell and does not hit aerial opponents. The only thing it can do is sing-stall but you're not really invincible for that long during ledge-singing.

How is DK's headbutt broken, anyway? Anyway, in my opinion, and I do not in any way claim I'm perfect, it's broken.

He was being sarcastic. Sing isn't broken, and neither is headbutt. Just like you said. And yet, they are the only characters that have those moves. Sonic's "magic" ability may be as useless as they are.

If we're using the demo as reference, I only saw sonics getting their arses kicked.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Wait... wait... wait.
Sonic's Up+B recovery in principle is not much different than Luigi's, Pikachu's, or Pichu's methods of Over+B recovery. This in itself is not broken at all, especially when Sonic is still very free to be edgeguarded.

How can this be equated to broken, when other characters will still possess better, less exploitable recoveries? This holds no more weight than Peach being able to float to recover, and the over+B options.

 

[Mic_128]

Read the parts about the gaps between "Hard to kills" and "Easy to kills" widening. Just because you're hard to kill does not mean you're automatically a hard hitter/show character or vice versa. Case in point: Pichu vs. Fox.

Who said it did? The faster, lighter characters are going to be killed earlier than the more heavy ones. Yes, the heavier ones are going to need to be hit a bit more before dying than Melee. That's like, 1 extra attack. That's no big deal.

Ease to KO (to knock you off the screen so that you instantly die from a move) is not something that is debatable. With or without DI, the same move will KO Peach much earlier to at least slightly earlier than it will KO Bowser, regardless of player skill.

True, but if the person isn't as good with that character, they're going to die before they get to that point.

In fact, as I pointed out in the OP, the fact that he's the only one is what makes it broken! It's not broken if everyone has it unless the game itself breaks.

You really need to read what you type. "It's broken because he's the only one who has it" That must mean that Bowser is broken in Melee, he's the only one with an arial grab!

Oh wait, it isn't. My bad. But Peach surly is because of her floating ability! Oh wait, she's not. Well then Samus must, she's the only one witha homing projectile! Oh wait, it's not.

Being unique does NOT equal broken.

Say what? What freeze frame stuff? The only freeze frame that was changed, AFAIK, from NTSC to PAL for Melee was that Peach's Up B received freeze frames.

Samus' Up B and Forward Air (I think Up Smash too), Zelda's Fsmash and Mario's Down B too.

Weight does not automatically make an impact on your recovery.

By itself, no, but you'd be giving the lighter characters longer recoveries because they're going to get knocked futher more often. Case in point, Zelda vs Sheik.

The point is not that they're giving him something new. The point is that, in my perception, this new thing is broken.

You have not played the game. You have not used this move, nor played against anyone who has used it against you. You haven't even been in the room while a match has been played. You aren't even citing any videos to any uses at E for All what could show that yes, it might be overpowered. You have nothing personal to base your claim that it is indeed broken, other than, and I quote "the fact that he's the only one is what makes it broken!"

You must've dodged a very laggy move if you're able to hit your opponent afterwards. Smart people won't spam out random smashes at airdodgers.

Who said anything about Smash attacks? Jump towards an oponent who jumps and starts an attack, you dodge it, momentum carries you behind, and then while they're returning to default moving animation, you back air them (or if needed, double jump after the dodge to get them if they jumped higher).

Sing is not broken. It's slow as hell and does not hit aerial opponents. The only thing it can do is sing-stall but you're not really invincible for that long during ledge-singing.

My point is that in words, it sounds a lot better than it is. An AoE move that makes people near you fall asleep? A move that'll knock people INTO the ground where they're trapped for a few seconds so you can beat them up? Or use it to smash people straight down when in the air? Doesn't that sound totally awesome? Shame they sucked in practise.

My point is that we've had people play the beta now. And while they might change things, the beta gave us a pretty good idea of what the final product will be like.

And the people who DID play it never complained about Sonic's up B.

Please present proof of that instead of trying to steer the argument in other directions.

My proof is this link that leads to all complaints about Sonic's Up-B by the people who actually played with, as or against sonic.

www.complaintsaboutsonicsrecovery.com

Where's your proof that it is?

It's been pointed out that maybe what Gimpyfish & co experienced was a glitch.

Yeah. Hope so. What was shown with that went against what Sakurai said before.

Nice counter argument there. Obviously, this wasn't the best way of combating the problem with fast characters good at KO:ing and/or hard to kill.

By making the slower attacking, slower moving characters need to be hit more than the fast moving, fast attacking, fast comboing characters? How's that not even?

 

[Yuna]

Wait... wait... wait.
Sonic's Up+B recovery in principle is not much different than Luigi's, Pikachu's, or Pichu's methods of Over+B recovery. This in itself is not broken at all, especially when Sonic is still very free to be edgeguarded.

How can this be equated to broken, when other characters will still possess better, less exploitable recoveries? This holds no more weight than Peach being able to float to recover, and the over+B options.

Because all of those people lag considerably afterwards? Sonic, however, can move pretty soon after initiating Up B. Of course, he'll have a special recovery because it's simply horizontal, but with proper mindgames, I see a lot of (broken) potential. It'll be very hard to edgeguard him.

Who said it did? The faster, lighter characters are going to be killed earlier than the more heavy ones. Yes, the heavier ones are going to need to be hit a bit more before dying than Melee. That's like, 1 extra attack. That's no big deal.

Fast does not equal easy to kill nor does slow equal hard to KO.

Case in point: Game & Watch and Fox (Slow, easy to kill vs. Fast, hard to KO).

"It's just one extra attack". One extra attack is a lot. It's like saying "Fox is just the same in PAL! Nerfed usmash? Well, that's just one extra attack."

You really need to read what you type. "It's broken because he's the only one who has it" That must mean that Bowser is broken in Melee, he's the only one with an arial grab!

No, it's broken because it's a recovery move and the way it works is just too good. If everyone else could do a lot of stuff after Up B, it'd be less broken, but I see broken potential because he's the only one who has it.

Being unique does NOT equal broken.

Depends on what the unique ability is. Imagine having an attack with the hitbox of Bowser that inflicts 50% of damage and KOs at 70%. That would be broken.

Samus' Up B and Forward Air (I think Up Smash too), Zelda's Fsmash and Mario's Down B too.

I believe freeze frames were were in NTSC for all of Zelda's attacks... just not for 1.0.

By itself, no, but you'd be giving the lighter characters longer recoveries because they're going to get knocked futher more often. Case in point, Zelda vs Sheik.

Actually, Sheik and Zelda weigh just the same.

S You have not played the game. You have not used this move, nor played against anyone who has used it against you. You haven't even been in the room while a match has been played. You aren't even citing any videos to any uses at E for All what could show that yes, it might be overpowered. You have nothing personal to base your claim that it is indeed broken, other than, and I quote "the fact that he's the only one is what makes it broken!"

Neither have you, yet you argue the opposite as it were the truth. We're all opinionated. You have not personally cloned someone yet I'm sure you've at one time or another discussed cloning in the past.

S Who said anything about Smash attacks? Jump towards an oponent who jumps and starts an attack, you dodge it, momentum carries you behind, and then while they're returning to default moving animation, you back air them (or if needed, double jump after the dodge to get them if they jumped higher).

Momentum carries you behind them? Umm... say what? What kind of momentum does this game have if, despite having no directional airdodges, you'll actually be carried behind an opponent by simply jumping and airdodging?

And I said Smash Attacks because a lot of Smash attacks are slow both on startup and cooldown. If someone's spamming airdodges, you just start using faster, less cooldowny moves, just like you would against someone who rolls a lot.

S My point is that in words, it sounds a lot better than it is. An AoE move that makes people near you fall asleep? A move that'll knock people INTO the ground where they're trapped for a few seconds so you can beat them up? Or use it to smash people straight down when in the air? Doesn't that sound totally awesome? Shame they sucked in practise.

While I'll admit we don't know everything about this move yet, I still think it sounds too good in my ears ATM. I could be wrong, I make no claims to being Knower of All Truths.

And the people who DID play it never complained about Sonic's up B.

Did any of them play a good Sonic? How many people set out to become Good Sonic Players and try to exploit the Up B?

My proof is this link that leads to all complaints about Sonic's Up-B by the people who actually played with, as or against sonic.

www.complaintsaboutsonicsrecovery.com

Where's your proof that it is?

Umm... is that sarcasm? Because the link does not work.

Yeah. Hope so. What was shown with that went against what Sakurai said before.

I'm sure there's been other instances where Sakurai's said stuff that wasn't true/was changed. He's only human, after all.

By making the slower attacking, slower moving characters need to be hit more than the fast moving, fast attacking, fast comboing characters? How's that not even?

Ummm... what? I'm not getting what you're trying to say here.

My point is that not all slow characters were hard hitters and that all fast characters were loose hitters. And somehow people keep equating slow with longevity.

My actual point is that long-living characters don't necessarily have hard knuckles and vice versa. Good examples are Fox - Fast and a hard hitter (Usmash, Uair, anyone?) vs. oh, say a whole bunch of Low Tiers excluding Bowser who are much slower than Fox and weaker hitters than him.

Simply making it overall harder to KO does in no way mean the slower characters will have it easier. Making it harder to KO only helps those who survive for a long time. It's not really helping Bowser much if it's suddenly harder to KO someone if yet another Fast Character that's a Hard Hitter appears and destroys him at what he does best (hitting hard).

 

[Psydon]

Wait.. What?

You're kidding, right?

No, really. I'll see if I can find the video again.

Because all of those people lag considerably afterwards? Sonic, however, can move pretty soon after initiating Up B. Of course, he'll have a special recovery because it's simply vertical, but with proper mindgames, I see a lot of (broken) potential. It'll be very hard to edgeguard him.

What else can he do? A Sonic player could:

-Go close to the stage and Up+B straight up to the ledge (slowly, remember), and overshoot it.
-Up+B earlier on (taking into account, of course, the top edge so that he doesn't go right into it and kill himself) and use another special to return horizontally.
-Pretend to die, but actually Up+B right into the ledge (it's possible if you have a far enough bottom edge).
-Not use the Up+B and instead recover with one of his Spindashes, which would defeat the purpose of this argument.

And it's not like he can hold himself in the air the way Samus can with bombs, allowing for a moment of wonder for the opponent. Once Sonic is off the stage He Must Recover! ( =P ) And, as I've already said, the player has to take into account the actual distance of his Up+B, as well as the slow travel rate of it. He doesn't travel nearly as fast as, say, Mario and Marth do. Heck, even Samus' Up+B moves faster than Sonic's; that and the distance can leave him very vulnerable to counterattack, freedom to act afterwards or not. Add in the fact that Sonic doesn't move quickly in the air, and the fact that he's a short-range, light and weak character, and you've got plenty of weaknesses to take advantage of with one's anti-recovery moves.

My point is that not all slow characters were hard hitters and that all fast characters were loose hitters. And somehow people keep equating slow with longevity.

My actual point is that long-living characters don't necessarily have hard knuckles and vice versa. Good examples are Fox - Fast and a hard hitter (Usmash, Uair, anyone?) vs. oh, say a whole bunch of Low Tiers excluding Bowser who are much slower than Fox and weaker hitters than him.

Simply making it overall harder to KO does in no way mean the slower characters will have it easier. Making it harder to KO only helps those who survive for a long time. It's not really helping Bowser much if it's suddenly harder to KO someone if yet another Fast Character that's a Hard Hitter appears and destroys him at what he does best (hitting hard).

It's true. But given what we've learned and seen, there's certainly more of a shift towards that notion.

Fast speed? Weak or decent hits (look at Fox: they nerfed two of his best kill moves and the Shine) and light weight.

Medium speed? It varies.

Slow speed? Powerful hits, heavy weight, and Super Armour.

When you factor that into the slower engine and the floatier gameplay, as somebody else said somewhere, slow characters are being made to be more like tanks. Their survivability will definitely improve.

 

[Twinslash]

no one's forcing you to buy the game.


for anyone who consistently makes threads about anything remotely controversial without having played the finished game (which is everyone) and has serious doubts or problems with it already. I remind you..... You don't HAVE TO ****** BUY THE GAME

Oh and Mewtwos and Game & Watches Up+B aren't """" ZOMG Broken"""" they were designed like that for a reason. Characters have strengths and weaknesses. G&W and Mewtwos recoveries are strengths. stop overanalyzing

 

[Mic_128]

It'll be very hard to edgeguard him.

Not really, won't be any harder than edgeguarding, say Marth. Get the timing right, and get a good Smash in.

Fast does not equal easy to kill nor does slow equal hard to KO.

No, but as said above, the faster characters don't hit as hard, but can hit more, and now the heavier characters are still slower, but they can resist attacks and their hits hurt more.

Case in point: Game & Watch and Fox (Slow, easy to kill vs. Fast, hard to KO).

What about Pichu vs Bowser?

"It's just one extra attack". One extra attack is a lot. It's like saying "Fox is just the same in PAL! Nerfed usmash? Well, that's just one extra attack."

Pretty much, yeah. I've always thought if they really wanted to nerf Fox they should have cut his feet off.

No, it's broken because it's a recovery move and the way it works is just too good. If everyone else could do a lot of stuff after Up B, it'd be less broken, but I see broken potential because he's the only one who has it.

So iss Peach's Float. It's a recovery move and the way it works is just too good. If everyone else could do a lot of stuff while floating, it'd be less broken, but I see broken potential because she's the only one who has it.

Oh, except it wasn't broken.

Depends on what the unique ability is. Imagine having an attack with the hitbox of Bowser that inflicts 50% of damage and KOs at 70%. That would be broken.

Yeah, see, Sonic's recovery doesn't do that.

I believe freeze frames were were in NTSC for all of Zelda's attacks... just not for 1.0.

I don't know about that, the only NTSC version I've ever played is 1,0

Actually, Sheik and Zelda weigh just the same.

Okay, bad example. How about Pikachu vs Falcon?

Neither have you, yet you argue the opposite as it were the truth. We're all opinionated. You have not personally cloned someone yet I'm sure you've at one time or another discussed cloning in the past.

I don't quite know what cloning has to do, but I have evidence to back me up, that being the complete lack of any complaints, comments or observations by anyone who was at E for All about Sonic's recovery being broken.

Momentum carries you behind them? Umm... say what? What kind of momentum does this game have if, despite having no directional airdodges, you'll actually be carried behind an opponent by simply jumping and airdodging?

Simple, instead of air dodging a direction, your character keeps moving as if you hadn't done anything. So if you ran forward, jumped and then air dodged, you'd move the same way you would if you just ran and jumped.

And I said Smash Attacks because a lot of Smash attacks are slow both on startup and cooldown. If someone's spamming airdodges, you just start using faster, less cooldowny moves, just like you would against someone who rolls a lot.

Why the heck would you shff air dodges?

Did any of them play a good Sonic? How many people set out to become Good Sonic Players and try to exploit the Up B?

With the controllers there, I doubt anyone played a great Sonic, but they would have noticed if it was so game breakingly broken.

Umm... is that sarcasm? Because the link does not work.

That was sarcasm, correct.

I'm sure there's been other instances where Sakurai's said stuff that wasn't true/was changed. He's only human, after all.

Release dates among them, yeah. Obviously it's still all subject to change, but it sounds more like a glitch than aomething intentional.

Ummm... what? I'm not getting what you're trying to say here.

My point is that not all slow characters were hard hitters and that all fast characters were loose hitters. And somehow people keep equating slow with longevity.

My actual point is that long-living characters don't necessarily have hard knuckles and vice versa. Good examples are Fox - Fast and a hard hitter (Usmash, Uair, anyone?) vs. oh, say a whole bunch of Low Tiers excluding Bowser who are much slower than Fox and weaker hitters than him.

True, but from what we've seen, he's gone about changes to make it more balanced, the anti-flinch armour, for example.

Simply making it overall harder to KO does in no way mean the slower characters will have it easier. Making it harder to KO only helps those who survive for a long time. It's not really helping Bowser much if it's suddenly harder to KO someone if yet another Fast Character that's a Hard Hitter appears and destroys him at what he does best (hitting hard).

Again, from what we've seen, it's looking up for the slower characters. And even so, this still isn't a bad thing. If the heavies can survive longer, they can do more damage, get more kills, ect. It's not going to make them godlike, yes, but it's not a bad thing.

 

[Aminar]

Spikes are hands down my favorite way to kill people. What would smash be without a good 'ole Ganondorf Thunder Drop?

Thats a meteor smash. Last I remember Ganandorfs spike is In air Falcon kick.

 

[KratosAurion192]

People just love to say "This is just a demo". They've been saying it for over a year about crap like the ultra-freeze-frame-**** now. Just because something is stupid does not mean it'll be gone in the final version. A lot of stupid stuff gets overlooked, even by companies which make some of the big fighters like Tekken and Street Fighter.

And SSBB has stayed pretty much the same since the very first trailer. Nothing's changed as far as we know..nd it's not that reliable to think that they'll change stuff before release. They weren't smart enough to not include it in the first place, after all..

As far as we know...

problem is we don't know how much it has changed.... only the people making the game know for sure...

Almost everyone is a sitting duck after their Up Bs. Why not just give his move attack frames and be done with it?

It doesn't have attack frames which is why he's allowed to attack, balances out....

Ummm what? When did I "not want to talk about start-up lag and the ability to hit"? And who are these people who've "discovered" that Bowser's a lot easier to combo than Peach? It must just be that Bowser's generally a lot easier to combo (because of a bad jumpout, bad hitstun, whatever) because unless Meta-Knight has a shine-like move, there's no reason why it'd be easier.

Well you were talking about weight and floatyness of a character, but nothing else, if you wanted to, why didn't you?
Bowser IS easier to combo, it's a fact, hence why he's lower in the teir list...
The fact that he is easier to combo, makes it easier to get him to a percent that HE personally can be KO'd at... combos lead to KO's

5) Pray tell, besides a handful of characters who have an extra option or two, what options do the general populus have besides Up B and jumping? Certain Side Bs like Luigi Missile is limited to that handful of characters and a lot of moves that give you some extra distance won't give you enough distance to make it back (like Marths Side B). The general populus only has Up B and double jumping (especially in Brawl, where you no longer have directional airdodge).

Well are you talking melee or Brawl? Brawl I have no idea about, but I'm sure more than two will be found out.

pika and pichu have their side b like luigi, Shieks fair aids her as well as zelda's up-b, marth and roy have their side b for a little aid, samus and link have their bomb, link, samus and ylink have the grapples, mario and doc both have a LOT in their recoveries... shall I go on?

We have the trailers and the beta. If we can't criticize the game for stuff in the beta, can we praise it? Can we talk about anything at all? I'm so sick and tired of people saying "This isn't the final game! Why are you complaining?!". Then why are we talking about the game whatsoever?! Quick, close down the boards! The game's not out, after all. You can't prove Sonic's gonna be in the final version!

E for all had the beta, for like three days, that isn't even nearly enough time to judge anything. It's not the final game, most of the brawl boards are spam and topic about what we DO know now, that's the only reason I'm here :D

oh... and dojo proves Sonic in.... that was lame....

So instead of just balancing the game by making it so that the characters with good comboability and finishers are less broken, the solution is to make it generally harder to KO? What about those characters who were fast, good at KO:ing and lived for a very long time? As I said, making it generally harder to KO will make the gaps even greater. It's not generally balancing the game in favour in those who are slow. They still have to deal with speedy characters zig zagging between their legs.

You are still seeing brawl as melee.... stop... please....

 

[CommanderGrit]

lol, not to mention new features such as gliding and the auto-lock-on tethers

 

[RyokoYaksa]

There are plenty of things you're oblivious about in regards to Sonic's Up+B.

It resets reduces his horizontal momentum, which makes him a slow target for easy edgeguarding, and also limits the window where this Up+B can be used to recover (like DK's Up+B).
He can't do his B moves when free falling after using Up+B. The "stuff after" is limited to A moves and the aerial dodge which don't increase his recovery.
He can't act at all until -after- he starts falling when using Up+B. When rising up he is fair game.
He can't sweet spot on the way up with the Up+B.
-Nothing- Sonic can do while free falling from his Up+B will help his recovery further without leaving him open to attack at the same time, including the present form of air dodge. He can attempt to swat away potential edgeguarders, but he's not hard to hit out of his Up+B. And when he does get hit, he's in big trouble because the move itself won't allow him to cover much horizontal distance without a predictable path.

In all seriousness, Sonic's Up+B is Game & Watch's Up+B with the addition of him being able to attack afterwards, and the option to rebuild your aerial momentum if you're REALLY HIGH UP. And Game & Watch won't jump to brokenness by this alone.

There were already recoveries in Melee that are better than Sonic's at present. You're making the word "broken" meaningless.

 

[Mattnumbers]

There are plenty of things you're oblivious about in regards to Sonic's Up+B.

It resets his horizontal momentum, which makes him an initially slow target for easy edgeguarding, and also limits the window where this Up+B can be used to recover (like DK's Up+B).
He can't do his B moves when free falling after using Up+B. The "stuff after" is limited to A moves and the aerial dodge which don't increase his recovery.
He can't act at all until -after- he starts falling when using Up+B. When rising up he is fair game.
-Nothing- Sonic can do while free falling from his Up+B will help his recovery further without leaving him open to attack at the same time, including the present form of air dodge. He can attempt to swat away potential edgeguarders, but he's not hard to hit out of his Up+B. And when he does get hit, he's in big trouble because the move itself won't allow him to cover much horizontal distance without a predictable path.

In all seriousness, Sonic's Up+B is Game & Watch's Up+B with the addition of him being able to attack afterwards, and the option to rebuild your aerial momentum if you're REALLY HIGH UP. And Game & Watch won't jump to brokenness by this alone.

There were already recoveries in Melee that are better than Sonic's at present. You're making the word "broken" meaningless.

Quoted for truth
________
digital vaporizer

 

[Samochan]

I think what Yuna's basically saying is, the big boost in how long it takes for character to die gives many advantages to those who have reliable vertical KO options (pika, fox), those who have very good meteors (like ganon), spikes (falco) and semi-spikes (fox) or those who can go very far/high off stage and hit the recovering characters (peach, jiggs). I don't see how it's balancing the game when kirby still can't KO anyone now till 200% mark and even peach can KO meta to the top with 50% off her pan and Pika shieldstabs with dsmash to 90% KO's. >_> And has pika's upsmash been nerfed at all? I foresee pika as the new top tier with peach-like cheap shieldpressure on dsmash, infinite jab (try and grab chu doing jabs on you with pika) and strong and reliable KO option to the top like Fox and who would ever forget the fun in getting tailspiked by his uair at 0%? Not to mention pika has awesome, very versatile recovery and he's quick to boot and has projectile to spam. Fox still has shinespike and while the upsmash started to KO things from 50% to 108% on ntsc, even 150% is a big difference to 200%. Also this opens up a gap between players who can DI and who can't. Superb DI was one of the hardest things in ssbm to master. Freeze frames might make it easier to DI, but since good DI is gonna be childs play now, very good players will start smash DI'ing like on Perfect Control and live till 300% (there is a one vid where fox lives at 300% from fully charged shot). Me thinks 100% difference in dying % makes a big gap between players.

 

[KratosAurion192]

I think what Yuna's basically saying is, the big boost in how long it takes for character to die gives many advantages to those who have reliable vertical KO options (pika, fox), those who have very good meteors (like ganon), spikes (falco) and semi-spikes (fox) or those who can go very far/high off stage and hit the recovering characters (peach, jiggs). I don't see how it's balancing the game when kirby still can't KO anyone now till 200% mark and even peach can KO meta to the top with 50% off her pan and Pika shieldstabs with dsmash to 90% KO's. >_> And has pika's upsmash been nerfed at all? I foresee pika as the new top tier with peach-like cheap shieldpressure on dsmash, infinite jab (try and grab chu doing jabs on you with pika) and strong and reliable KO option to the top like Fox and who would ever forget the fun in getting tailspiked by his uair at 0%? Not to mention pika has awesome, very versatile recovery and he's quick to boot and has projectile to spam. Fox still has shinespike and while the upsmash started to KO things from 50% to 108% on ntsc, even 150% is a big difference to 200%. Also this opens up a gap between players who can DI and who can't. Superb DI was one of the hardest things in ssbm to master. Freeze frames might make it easier to DI, but since good DI is gonna be childs play now, very good players will start smash DI'ing like on Perfect Control and live till 300% (there is a one vid where fox lives at 300% from fully charged shot). Me thinks 100% difference in dying % makes a big gap between players.

See that does make sense to a point, IF THIS WAS MELEE this is the thing that he doesn't seem to see, it's not melee... end of story....

 

[Samochan]

See that does make sense to a point, IF THIS WAS MELEE this is the thing that he doesn't seem to see, it's not melee... end of story....

But this is brawl and that's exacly the reason here. Ssbm didn't have such freeze frames, but even little amount of freeze frames make DI'ing extremely easy. Take this from someone who's buddy can consistently smash DI pichu's fsmash so it doesn't hit correcly, peach's parasol, zelda's fsmash and so on when it comes to just freeze frame attacks, but not forgetting smash DI'ing the normal attacks all the time. On ssbm there is little chance of characters living past 200% mark cause you hit the blastzone regardless. The exception occurs when people use excessive smash DI and live even from the more powerful knockback attacks, like on the one japanese vid where fox survives a charge shot on FD at 300% due to smash DI'ing. Freeze frames makes it incredibly easy to smash DI around and having bigger stages in general, more floathier and the general concept of living longer with higher damage, all that is different from ssbm and is on brawl. Horizonal KO's and edgeguard do not work for the same reasons as effectively as they did on ssbm, cause characters live longer, recover from higher due to floathyness and all the changes that were made to recovery mechanics like up b autosweetspots and aerial dodge. This makes characters that have reliable vertical KO options, meteors, spikes, semi-spikes and can go far off stage to edgeguard perform a lot better than those that need to rely on horizonal KO's, cause they can get their KO's off at much lower% than those of horizonally KO'ing characters. Characters that lack low% options are met with severe disadvantage due to increased DI and in overall bigger stages. Everyone at high level could possibly DI well and survive, but not every character has good KO options at their disposal. It makes a big difference when pika can reliable KO any character at 90% and make it back from anywhere at 150-200% and his opponent can't KO pika till 150-200% reliably but just gets KO'ed at 100% mark or so. Fox performs **** good on ssbm cause he can KO at low%, kirby performs really bad cause he can't KO anyone till 200% to save his life. The concept applies to brawl as well, cause the simple idea behind stock matches is to reduce your opponents stocks to zero faster than he does to you.

 

[SliK]

I don't know how you played Melee, but Bowser was much harder to kill compared to Peach

I'm sorry this made me lawl. Are you talking about smash or some other game named melee I have never heard of.

 

[Samochan]

I'm sorry this made me lawl. Are you talking about smash or some other game named melee I have never heard of.

This only proves how little effort you put into reading this topic and how little you understand of the difference between KO'ing and edgeguarding. >_>

Edgeguarding bowser is not a super difficult task. But there is a definitive difference in what % bowser dies compared to peach. It is not farfetched for bowser to live till 220% against peach's fair or dsmash on the very edge of Final destination with good DI, while peach on the other hand dies at 180% with same DI, from the center of the stage. KO percentaces do not take account on how easy it is to edgeguard someone and with very good DI any character that's not Kirby has a good possibility to get back stage, Bowser included. Bowser survives far longer than peach does cause he weights a lot more.

 

[rsc_390]

hmmm.... with all this talk of longer lasting lives...

Does anyone else see 3-stock battles becoming the new tournament norm? If the battles are too long we might HAVE to make 3-stocks the default so the tournament doesn't take forever.

 

[Eaode]

This only proves how little effort you put into reading this topic and how little you understand of the difference between KO'ing and edgeguarding. >_>

Edgeguarding bowser is not a super difficult task. But there is a definitive difference in what % bowser dies compared to peach. It is not farfetched for bowser to live till 220% against peach's fair or dsmash on the very edge of Final destination with good DI, while peach on the other hand dies at 180% with same DI, from the center of the stage. KO percentaces do not take account on how easy it is to edgeguard someone and with very good DI any character that's not Kirby has a good possibility to get back stage, Bowser included. Bowser survives far longer than peach does cause he weights a lot more.

Does it REALLY matter what the technical difference between KO'ing and Edgeguarding are?

I define killing as making the opponent lose a stock. That's all that matters. And Bowser will die faster than Peach.

 

[Ban Heim]

See that does make sense to a point, IF THIS WAS MELEE this is the thing that he doesn't seem to see, it's not melee... end of story....

You have a very solid argument there. This isn't Melee, therefore we are all wrong and you are right. How stupid we are...thank God you're around to show us the error of our ways.

How about you back up your argument instead of just saying "it's not Melee?" Samochan pretty much ***** any argument you may have had and that post of his above yours shows exactly why the new DI/recovery mechanics might screw Brawl's balance. How would you feel if you had to get Falco up to 160% to kill him but he could just spike your *** at 0%? Unfair, right?

 

[gigasteve]

You're right. You can't die in the land of the Immortals. But seriously, this makes the matches more fun, and noobs couldn't get us that high in the first place.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

This thread really screams "paranoia".

 

[Ban Heim]

You're right. You can't die in the land of the Immortals. But seriously, this makes the matches more fun, and noobs couldn't get us that high in the first place.

It's not a noob vs pro argument. Noobs will be noobs, regardless of how easy it is to pull off advanced techniques. The argument is about characters and how the gap between low and high tiers will be much larger than it was in Melee. Everyone wants a more balanced Smash but Brawl doesn't seem like it will be as balanced as Melee was, which wasn't that balanced in the first place.

 

[gigasteve]

It's not a noob vs pro argument. Noobs will be noobs, regardless of how easy it is to pull off advanced techniques. The argument is about characters and how the gap between low and high tiers will be much larger than it was in Melee. Everyone wants a more balanced Smash but Brawl doesn't seem like it will be as balanced as Melee was, which wasn't that balanced in the first place.

Ttyl agree. Bowser vs Samus= Samus every time.
^ That's totally.

 

[rsc_390]

I think its a little too early to say what the balance will be like.

And if you DO want to use Melee as a reference, recovery is not directly proportional to tier. Think about how high up Falco and C. Falcon up on the tiers. Then think about how low Pikachu and Mewtwo are.

So as far as affecting balance, while this makes someone with a good recovery/strong DI (like JigglyPuff in Melee) more likely to be higher up in the tiers, it doesn't necesarily WIDEN THE GAP in the tiers, since for all we know the guy with the worst recovery could wind up with the next "shine".

 

[Ban Heim]

I think its a little too early to say what the balance will be like.

And if you DO want to use Melee as a reference, recovery is not directly proportional to tier. Think about how high up Falco and C. Falcon up on the tiers. Then think about how low Pikachu and Mewtwo are.

So as far as affecting balance, while this makes someone with a good recovery/strong DI (like JigglyPuff in Melee) more likely to be higher up in the tiers, it doesn't necesarily WIDEN THE GAP in the tiers, since for all we know the guy with the worst recovery could wind up with the next "shine".

Right, but I never said recovery was proportional to tier. Recovery actually has no relevance. If you can DI well, recovery (talking about recovery moves here) isn't as important. So if you can live longer with good DI and can kill your enemies with spikes (where recovery/DI means nothing), then you have the upper hand. So the guy with the worst recovery can still be top tier if he has the next shine/spike spamming ability since DI prevents him from being knocked off as far. A character like Falco (if he was in Brawl) would be very tough to beat. His recovery is mediocre, but with good DI, that doesn't matter. He can still live for a long time and he can kill quickly and at low percentages with his spike.

And yeah, I know it's too early to say what it'll be like, and most of this is speculation based off of the videos/personal opinions of the guys who went to E for All, but it is a Brawl forum. If we didn't speculate, most of this forum would be very lifeless. Speculation is all we have right now, so if we can speculate on who might be in Brawl, why can't we speculate on how the game will be played?

 

[KratosAurion192]

You have a very solid argument there. This isn't Melee, therefore we are all wrong and you are right. How stupid we are...thank God you're around to show us the error of our ways.

How about you back up your argument instead of just saying "it's not Melee?" Samochan pretty much ***** any argument you may have had and that post of his above yours shows exactly why the new DI/recovery mechanics might screw Brawl's balance. How would you feel if you had to get Falco up to 160% to kill him but he could just spike your *** at 0%? Unfair, right?

You guys are COMPLETLY missing what I'm trying to say here...

They are two different games, things will translate over but NOTHING except the general basics of the game can be completly confirmed until it's tried. Every example that you have given me, every bit of your argument, is based off of melee. And even then, who is to say falco could be combo'd to 160% before he could even get off that spike?

Eaode said it best, a kill is a kill. gimped off, spiked, combo'd, edgeguarded.... All the same result in the end, it's all about how much effort you have to do to get it, which that effort is gauged in way more ways than I feel like listing (and they should be obvious)

You are automatically assuming because people HAD the ability to kill at under 20% in melee that they will still have that ability in Brawl, You are assuming that more percent means that killing off that character will be a lot more work than needed, You all are looking at the mechanics of melee, putting them in brawl, and saying that since things are different now, it's going to make the differences just that much more apparent in the teirs, which simply cannot be proven yet...


I didn't feel the need to say more than "It's not melee..." because frankly, as far as anyone can clearly state, that is pretty much the only fact that we have to run on. Anything else is just assumption, or observation from E for All demo (which for that matter, how do we know that they won't lower the killing percents from the demo?)


The game WILL play differently, it happened between halo 2 and 3, it's happened in all of the Resident Evil games I've played, hell it always happens. You just need to accept that and be open to the posibility that it will work and not make it worse, and if you feel that it does, melee will always be around for you to play, I can keep going but I really don't feel like going on right now...

 

[rsc_390]

Right, but I never said recovery was proportional to tier. Recovery actually has no relevance. If you can DI well, recovery (talking about recovery moves here) isn't as important. So if you can live longer with good DI and can kill your enemies with spikes (where recovery/DI means nothing), then you have the upper hand. So the guy with the worst recovery can still be top tier if he has the next shine/spike spamming ability since DI prevents him from being knocked off as far. A character like Falco (if he was in Brawl) would be very tough to beat. His recovery is mediocre, but with good DI, that doesn't matter. He can still live for a long time and he can kill quickly and at low percentages with his spike.

And yeah, I know it's too early to say what it'll be like, and most of this is speculation based off of the videos/personal opinions of the guys who went to E for All, but it is a Brawl forum. If we didn't speculate, most of this forum would be very lifeless. Speculation is all we have right now, so if we can speculate on who might be in Brawl, why can't we speculate on how the game will be played?

I guess I see what you mean. The Falco example helps.

Though out of curiosity do we know for a fact that spiking (not just meteor smashing) has returned? I think I remember Gimpy mentioning that the footstool couldn't be meteor cancelled, but i'm not 100% on that one.

Oh and I wasn't blaming you guys for speculating, i'm just reminding you to be cautious in what you assume, that's all.

 

[Samochan]

You guys are COMPLETLY missing what I'm trying to say here...

They are two different games, things will translate over but NOTHING except the general basics of the game can be completly confirmed until it's tried. Every example that you have given me, every bit of your argument, is based off of melee. And even then, who is to say falco could be combo'd to 160% before he could even get off that spike?

Okay, so now Pika's 90% dsmash KO and peach's 50% pan kills vertically and fox shinepike are not confirmed even while people played on E for all and tested out themselves? >_> I don't think brawl videos are based off melee.

And Eaode, the difference does matter when a character is good in just one thing, not both. Like peach is pretty good at edgeguarding but sucks at KO'ing. Kirby is decent in edgeguarding but is truly horrible in KO'ing. It makes all the difference in the world.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

You forgot that edgeguarders also get buffs, such as being able to edgehog easier. It just means that edgeguarding will play an even more central role in brawl.

 

[Mike Hawk]

there is this thing on the options menu called "damage ratio" use it.

 

[rsc_390]

there is this thing on the options menu called "damage ratio" use it.

If you've ever done that on Melee, you'd know that it doesn't affect everything in the same way.

For example if you put the Damage Ratio at its highest, Falco's shine is a kill-shot (fox's is pretty much a guaranteed kill too), but other moves seem unaffected (don't remember exactly which but I think Y. Link's bair has exactly the same knockback)

So adjusting the damage ratio will probably just screw up the whole game.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Yes, I know it's old. However, it is very interesting to see what we were thinking before the game even came out. I think I just gained a lot of respect for Yuna.

 

[shaSLAM]

i think we analyzed the game more before it came out than we did afterward
lol

 

[OmegaXXII]

why the bump?

but yeah, even before the release, Yuna was all into it already.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Odd enough, sometimes characters die too early. They are ether gimped or something extremely stupid involving DI or what not Makes characters live too long. There isn't an equilibrium.

 

[Barge]

Let it die guys, this thread isn't even relevant anymore.

"Making it virtually impossible to kill below 130%"

LOL

 

[HeroMystic]

Actually, making people generally much harder to KO will only serve to make the gaps between the Top Tiers and Low Tiers even more noticeable.

I found this hilarious because it's true.