Brawl- Thread: seriously how the **** do you port common3!

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hmm. I wish I knew more about what to post here.

Basically, I don't know if we're going to pull the deadline we set for ourselves. Entirely my fault; setting a deadline when half the stuff ain't done is not the best idea.

Most of the stuff is posted in the normal Brawl- thread, so I'll post the stuff that belongs in the backroom (AKA not really ready for official consumption)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/tdutigogt1k/fighter.zip = Latest pac-pack updated 1/19/10 at 3:01 PM EST
http://www.mediafire.com/?jmwojgfnqjl = current GCT.

The GCT is open. For the PAL GCT, I noticed that I couldn't find the Momentum Capture code. Which reminds me, does anyone have a copy of the Brawl+ PAL .txt file for 4.1?

To Do: ICs, Fox, Peach, Marth, MK fix/redo, Snake add more junk, ZSS redo

This is more or less the to-do list. More detailed:

Kirby needs a few tweaks but is mostly good.
Marth needs to be redone or rethought; my version is too broken and PyR's isn't changed worth ****.
Fox needs more done to him; most people are saying he's slightly underpowered and not flashy enough; I have to agree.
MK needs fixing. Probably a redo.
Peach needs to be done totally, unless I've missed something.
ICs are being done by Kirk.
ROB... ROB should be redone or at least heavily edited. He has some funny stuff, but WTF? Ftilt as a kill move, fair as a spike, nair angle is like luigi's fair, no dash attack (???)... ROB is wtf.
Snake needs more done to him, that's all. I think making his hitboxes bigger and more stupid is a good start, but it isn't enough to give him the minus feeling. Needs more zany nade/nikita/c4/mine ****. Also, I don't think we can keep DACG (Dash attack canceled Grab). It gives him a grab range over pretty much the whole field. It's also only slightly telegraphed, because he can just as easily ftilt, dtilt, or utilt. I think maybe DAC is just too good on him.
ZSS needs to be rethought and remade. My build sucks.
Zelda needs to be rethought and remade. Her current idea just isn't fair.

This list is a little old. Since then, we have a new MK which needs testing, but seems pretty decent. Basically it's just a matter of someone sitting down and getting to work. The problem is this: most of the ones marked down for redos are from me. I can't playtest.

This week or two between pound and the "release date" was supposed to be used on bugfixes, final balancing, and heavy playtesting. But we don't have a lot of the cast. Irritating. And then there are more chars that need fixing, which may not be mentioned there. Development has been moving very slowly, and we basically need to get stuff done. Anyone who is willing to help, please feel free.

Also, http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9243745&postcount=663
I think Adumbrodeus might be doing this, I dunno. I can't, I have no skillz. :V

 

[FrozenHobo]

snake's DACG is ridiculous. i literally have a couple frames to react and by then i'm already down.

i also think a slight nerf to utilt's knockback is required with the larger hitbox. same goes for ftilt as well. i'm getting tripped from too far away.

 

[Eldiran]

I'll see if I can make a new Peach or Zelda, though don't count on me since I am now back at school and may need to do actual work.

EDIT: Actually according to some B- post around 1-17-10 it looks like Kracka's taking up Zelda and some unnamed person is doing Peach, so I'll skip them.

If someone can find a character that is definitely not being worked on and needs a total redo, I'll make it as best I can.

 

[[TSON]]

Fox needs a significant amount of work. ZSS and Marth need total redos.

 

[VietGeek]

As a child I have always dreamed of fulfilling my dark fantasies and consulting people about it on the IRC

What is your train of thought on Brawl- Marth? I may be interested in casually doing something.

 

[[TSON]]

basically we're at a 'do whatever you want and try not to make infinite recoveries or guaranteed 0deaths' phase

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The main problem is, so far nobody has come up with a Marth idea that people really liked and that also really screamed minus. Like, I had the idea of Marthaknight, which nobody liked. Apparently, someone did a marth again; dunno if it's any good.

 

[The Cape]

Gonna have to load this up on Monday and see whats up with it. Then I can give you some good suggestions.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Keep in mind, the official deadline is the 30th... Time is running the **** out. >.>

EDIT:

I'll see if I can make a new Peach or Zelda, though don't count on me since I am now back at school and may need to do actual work.

EDIT: Actually according to some B- post around 1-17-10 it looks like Kracka's taking up Zelda and some unnamed person is doing Peach, so I'll skip them.

If someone can find a character that is definitely not being worked on and needs a total redo, I'll make it as best I can.

...

The **** is wrong with you? If you see someone that obviously needs work, you really should just up and do it. So far you've made one .pac for this project, and it's awesome, if slightly underpowered. There's a reason you're seen as one of the best PSAers on Smashboards, lol. Just grab someone that doesn't seem good and do it.

ZSS needs something, marth needs something, and snake is currently nothing more than a base that needs more PSA work. Everyone else is either being worked on or has a base solid enough to work with/redesign based off of (zelda, mostly). Nobody will admit it, but ROB needs a remake.

 

[leafgreen386]

Well, here's a few ideas...

Marth-:
- SideB moves character in the air in the direction of the swing (up only stalls descent except on say... 3rd hit) and can be interrupted with aerials or jump at (nearly) any time a hitbox is not active; later hits move marth further; much earlier initial interrupt to go into the second swing, to make a powerful form of movement
- Neutral B stalls in the air when charging (char falls slower but doesn't completely stop), propels character forward when released (gogo icecar), distance increasing with charge; can be interrupted with sideB or upB during motion, halting momentum
- UpB similar to but stronger than RC1 on non-sweetspot hits
- All aerials have earlier IASA, some with altered trajectories and kb to be used with sideB to combo
- Dash attack sprints marth further forward and enables DACUS; more combo oriented angle; overall sped up
- Dtilt set at angle that allows combos into aerials/sideB with no DI or DIing up, and sets up for dash attack or DACUS when DI'd away/down.

IS THAT BROKEN ENOUGH YET?????

 

[shanus]

Lol leaf, Just turns marth's side into ike's final smash with that idea.

 

[Eldiran]

...

The **** is wrong with you? If you see someone that obviously needs work, you really should just up and do it. So far you've made one .pac for this project, and it's awesome, if slightly underpowered. There's a reason you're seen as one of the best PSAers on Smashboards, lol. Just grab someone that doesn't seem good and do it.

ZSS needs something, marth needs something, and snake is currently nothing more than a base that needs more PSA work. Everyone else is either being worked on or has a base solid enough to work with/redesign based off of (zelda, mostly). Nobody will admit it, but ROB needs a remake.

Hmm, okay. I'll give ROB a go, probably. Any particular important changes for ROB I should cover?

Also, Ike- is really underpowered? I am shocked that's even possible when I gave him a store-able OHKO But it's kind of a relief to hear.

Also also, idea for Marth-: change his run animation to his Final dash and his dash attack to his Final Smash swing (obviously with much nerfed attack power). It would look very cool.

 

[[TSON]]

Copypaste all of the sideB changes and the bair changes so that we keep the robdashing. Robdashing is amazing.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

At the very least, the sideB changes. It's epic, I agree on that. Also, the idea "ROB is malfunctioning" is pretty interesting; it would just need to be done right. I dunno, see what you can do man.

Another point. Someone say something regarding PK Freeze. IMO, it's downright terrible and should actually do what it's supposed to do.

 

[[TSON]]

I'm sure you know my opinion, but since it breaks shields, and is a running gag, it stands for what Brawl- is. It does have followups if you are close to the opponent because of the explosion animation being like 3 frames long, and if you use it correctly, it will annoy the **** out of your foes because of the lingering hitbox and overall wtf factor. It does gimp recoveries since it turns off grabbing the ledge for a bit after it hits as well. Catch the foe off guard with it, toy with their subconscious reactions, you profit greatly from it.

 

[Veril]

Some ideas: mostly ridiculous cause I'm tired of reading everyone else's silly ideas and not suggesting any myself

Implementing alternate iasa on hit: Its too alien a mechanic for B+ generally but it lets you have a lot of control over combo windows vs. punishability + basically transform the game... BlazBrawl?

"b-reversible" airdodges
moar parabolic double jumps (zapjumping for the masses?)

final smashes puts the character in a state where all moves are cancelable on hit, and impossible to SDI, for x seconds... hacker combos ftw

Jigglypuff's sing range doubled, iasa pushed back substantially.

PK-freeze doesn't cause Lucas to enter special fall, PK-freeze momentum affects greatly increased for ludicrous ledge-sliding PKfreeze nonsense.

MK's IDC fix implemented. Squeak sound effect on hit from the fair outer hitboxes, 1 damage.

 

[Isatis]

If you guys need me to contribute ideas for Sonic in your next build, lemme know, I have a ton of 'em

 

[Thunderhorse+]

If you guys need me to contribute ideas for Sonic in your next build, lemme know, I have a ton of 'em

I hope your first proposal is "all attacks start on frame 1 and end on frame 3 (frame 2 being when the attack hits)"

Broken AND canononical.

 

[Isatis]

That is the most diabolical thing you have EVER suggested TH.

I wasn't going to suggest that, but now that you mention it, YES.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Some ideas: mostly ridiculous cause I'm tired of reading everyone else's silly ideas and not suggesting any myself

Implementing alternate iasa on hit: Its too alien a mechanic for B+ generally but it lets you have a lot of control over combo windows vs. punishability + basically transform the game... BlazBrawl?

"b-reversible" airdodges
moar parabolic double jumps (zapjumping for the masses?)

final smashes puts the character in a state where all moves are cancelable on hit, and impossible to SDI, for x seconds... hacker combos ftw

Jigglypuff's sing range doubled, iasa pushed back substantially.

PK-freeze doesn't cause Lucas to enter special fall, PK-freeze momentum affects greatly increased for ludicrous ledge-sliding PKfreeze nonsense.

MK's IDC fix implemented. Squeak sound effect on hit from the fair outer hitboxes, 1 damage.

1. If I figure out how to do this, it's going on a lot of moves for sure... :V
2. b-reversable wut
3. Dunno how to do that, but I can think of one or two chars who could use it.
4. That's actually a really good idea, lol.
5. Doubled ain't nothing. The first jiggs build we had, the hitbubble had size 13000.
6. O.o YESZ. TSON, this is the new PKF gimmick. Make it happen :V
7. Lol, lol, lol.

I hope your first proposal is "all attacks start on frame 1 and end on frame 3 (frame 2 being when the attack hits)"

Broken AND canononical.

Yeah, but can you balance it? And what would the attacks look like?

@Bio: have you looked at sonic? How does he feel?

Some known Bugs I'm mentioning...

-little problem I've been having with MK... I edited his jab so that all the hitboxes are size 50 and no flinch, and now he ends up cutting up the screen. I wish I could explain it... basically, a really weird gfx error. The opponent vanishes, and there are these weird polygonal lines all over the screen. >.> It's odd.
-Really strong moves like Warlock Punch kill you if you hit a shield with 'em, how do I fix this...

Also: http://brawlminus.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=131&pid=3065#pid3065

This is still not done. ;_; I fail with photoshop.

 

[[TSON]]

I hope your first proposal is "all attacks start on frame 1 and end on frame 3 (frame 2 being when the attack hits)"

Broken AND canononical.

Try again

 

[Veril]

DDD's waddle doo electric attacks have ZSS lolwut hitlag... think about it ;p

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I actually have an idea. Let's grab Metaknight, and make him so obviously overpowered that he has no bad matchups. Make it almost obvious that he's stupidly overpowered. Then, deny it constantly and keep him as the obvious best character. :V

@Veril: Lol, get hit by them and eat Fsmash FTW.

 

[Eldiran]

I actually have an idea. Let's grab Metaknight, and make him so obviously overpowered that he has no bad matchups. Make it almost obvious that he's stupidly overpowered. Then, deny it constantly and keep him as the obvious best character. :V

Metaknight should be constantly surrounded by a Tornado. If he uses Neutral B the tornado gets even bigger.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Totally.
10totally

 

[VietGeek]

i am working on rarth-

the prince is dead

there is only rarth

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This is the GFX error with MK that we've been having. >.>

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://www.mediafire.com/?0gzz0ywyam3 = GCT. Pack = http://www.mediafire.com/file/ttjm0jyvzym/fighter.zip| | Currently missing: Peach, Pit, Snake, ZSS, Zelda, Diddy's changelist. Changelists included

 

[Veril]

Adumbrodeus told me you were considering altering hitstun. I highly recommend this given that combos are awesome, and excessive combos seem perfect for B- concept wise. A combination of hitstun alterations and IASA on hit will give you a lot of control over what is possible. The amount of tweaking you need to do to get combos with vBrawl hitstun is ********. I am really... really really... experienced with augmenting combos and hitstun in general.

There are a number of good ideas floating around for B+ that simply are too radical to implement. Guru's PT suggestions are the most obvious example. I'd really like to mess around with MK-, personally. That and all the throws... once B+ goes Gold I'll have a little more time to work on this.

 

[The Cape]

I hope your first proposal is "all attacks start on frame 1 and end on frame 3 (frame 2 being when the attack hits)"

Broken AND canononical.

To balance this:

Make all the attacks have TP and no KO power.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

All right. I have come to a shocking conclusion: this needs more decent-level playtesters. Reason: Kirk cannot be everywhere at once and do everything at once. I spent virtually all of last night trying to drag together playtesting for the pack for Phase 5 only to find today that our playtesters suck and we have the wrong yoshi, Ike crashes, Pikachu is too strong, and MK needs fixes. I'd test myself if I had a ****ing wii. God this is frustrating sometimes. We currently have, as far as I can see, two or three team regulars who can effectively playtest beyond checking "does X or Y work how it should, does it have WAAAAY too much kill power, is it so obviously broken that any idiot would notice". This is not a good thing. >.< I mean, how am I supposed to know that giving pikachu Fox's usmash is a bad idea? :V

Essentially, I'm ranting about the way things go: I playtest for days/weeks/hours before I have to get a pack together for a tournament with three or four guys, get mostly positive feedback, then Kirk comes in like 10 minutes after it has to be done and shows everyone how ****ed up it really is. >.< And he's right.

 

[VietGeek]

kk

Sheik is ********.

Dsmash is basically unpunishable for the reward it gives. Just make it connect and decrease damage on each hitbox by like 3. Speed-up is dumb.

Dair: Make it the Melee one and give it a hitbox on frame 1 instead of again...speeding it up like crazy and giving it more momentum.

Making Sheik disappear when she dodges and stuff looks really unpolished. Not to mention if I hit her out of her dodge (like before or after the invinc. frames), she can stay invisible for the entire stock unless she does another move that makes her invisible (and let all the events finish so she is reset).

A lot of characters: I would also want to say that making every moving smash move half-way through FD is broken...yes. But it's not really epic, it really just allows people to abuse really dumb things because not only is the move unpunishable on block because we have N64 blockstun, but it also does a cross-up on shield...fun. <_<

Wario is definitely another really obvious problem. Super armor on like everything, Fsmash moves him a bajillion yards, Fart 1HKOs I think...etc. Wario is really good, just give him a gimmick like I did Marth ("aerial super wavedash" on aerial Shield Breaker) instead of just making him pseudo-invincible on everything. Like allow him to IASA stuff out of his bike and stuffs a lot quicker. We can retain a lot of the Super Armor stuff too, but make it Heavy Armor instead and make moves that are say...7 damage and under can't beat out the armor, but anything above can.

Also Nair has like a spike or something on the second hitbox? ;____;

Falco is also...wow. 3 lasers, unpunishable, does not have to do ANYTHING but press B to win...and has SHFF laser on SH if he wants to. I didn't play with him much but:

1. Giant recovery hitbox and more momentum = bad.
2. Triple lasers needs to be polished or done away with. Why not make two lasers come at once (on the same plane)? You can do this to the SHFF laser too.

But...

make the lasers do 1 damage AND change the electricity flag to something else (like none). This should give the lasers some real hitstun (like Melee).

Tone down windboxes on Fsmash I think...

err Falco just seems like a mess. Might have to play him more then I can assess him. IDK about his shine but pretty sure it spikes now.

Luigi...uhh yeah I said enough I think.

In general, here are some flaws I see through a lot of characters:

- Ridiculous movement on moving smash attacks or whatever.
- Ridiculous hitbox size increases without any effect to show its new size (sonic nair <_<).
- I often see a lot of recovery buffs by tacking on more momentum. I think we should make recoveries WEAKER. This is basically Gentleman's Brawl64 here, might as well balance it like N64. =V

How I think this project can be a lot cooler:

1. Smash is all about movement. Give characters a lot of cool movement tricks, like Luigi's trip momentum into stuff (WITH NO INVINCIBILITY THIS TIME >=( )

2. I suggest damage buffs unnecessary. I feel like everyone wants people to die quicker and rack damage faster, and make their characters the best. That's fine and all but if you want to make this a fun side-game you need some balance for in-game competition, not competition by programmers. <_<

3. So...I think with the hitstun rather high we can make everyone crazy good on-stage, and 0-death combos will happen anyway.

Here are some suggestions:

1. lose autosweetspot, you can keep the autosnap on hit glitch I guess. Make ledge grabs a lot smaller (and compensate with PW's backward ledge grab size code for snapping on the back).

2. Reduce hitlag to some stupid low constant (50% or 55%), compensate epic moves accordingly in PSA.

3. Make Falcon's UpB say "Show Your Moves" on release instead of delaying the explosion. I feel it really detracts from the flow of the match, and Falcon is all about flow.

Just pick and choose I guess. I do feel like some characters are harder to put gimmicks on than others, but making them plain broken is kinda boring as well. =V

<3 BPC

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

kk

Sheik is ********.

Dsmash is basically unpunishable for the reward it gives. Just make it connect and decrease damage on each hitbox by like 3. Speed-up is dumb. Dsmash has been noted; DACDS is stupidly good against shields; like, your opponent blocks and that's your cue to DACDS. It's hard to punish, does a ton of shield damage... Should I lower the speed or the damage?

Dair: Make it the Melee one and give it a hitbox on frame 1 instead of again...speeding it up like crazy and giving it more momentum. Have you seen Dair->dair->dair combos? seriously, they work.

Making Sheik disappear when she dodges and stuff looks really unpolished. Not to mention if I hit her out of her dodge (like before or after the invinc. frames), she can stay invisible for the entire stock unless she does another move that makes her invisible (and let all the events finish so she is reset). This is actually kinda the idea; sheik can make herself invisible (until using a power move) either by getting hit while invisible or airdodging into the ground. The idea of removing invisible on hit is prolly a good one though...

A lot of characters: I would also want to say that making every moving smash move half-way through FD is broken...yes. But it's not really epic, it really just allows people to abuse really dumb things because not only is the move unpunishable on block because we have N64 blockstun, but it also does a cross-up on shield...fun. <_< There aren't that many... Sheik, Wario, aaand I can't think of any others (Okay, Sheik DAC, ICs nana smashes, and the odd dash attack like DDD's)... But most of those are either side-effects or IMO not a huge deal. I could get rid of the one on sheik's fsmash though. Wario's has to stay, it just has to.

Wario is definitely another really obvious problem. Super armor on like everything, Fsmash moves him a bajillion yards, Fart 1HKOs I think...etc. Wario is really good, just give him a gimmick like I did Marth ("aerial super wavedash" on aerial Shield Breaker) instead of just making him pseudo-invincible on everything. Like allow him to IASA stuff out of his bike and stuffs a lot quicker. We can retain a lot of the Super Armor stuff too, but make it Heavy Armor instead and make moves that are say...7 damage and under can't beat out the armor, but anything above can. Moving it from super to heavy armor seems fair; Wario is really good. Fsmash should stay IMO. As far as movement goes... I dunno. Wario's movement is really not bad enough to warrent a buff; look at ganon. Full waft is a OHKO on the headbutt, I should prolly check my figures on the actual fart hitbox. Half Waft is a frame one OHKO which may need to be nerfed.



Also Nair has like a spike or something on the second hitbox? ;____; Yes. Second hitbox is a meteor spike that I should probably nerf

Falco is also...wow. 3 lasers, unpunishable, does not have to do ANYTHING but press B to win...and has SHFF laser on SH if he wants to. I didn't play with him much but:

1. Giant recovery hitbox and more momentum = bad. ?? He needed some buff to the upB. I think the problem was just that Taro couldn't figure out how to make it just go further, so he added that hop on the top. The upB hitbox is getting nerfed I think; Dthrow->upB is 40 if they tech and 60 with a chance of regrab if they don't.
2. Triple lasers needs to be polished or done away with. Why not make two lasers come at once (on the same plane)? You can do this to the SHFF laser too. Meh. Probably true; the triple lazer is a pain.

But...

make the lasers do 1 damage AND change the electricity flag to something else (like none). This should give the lasers some real hitstun (like Melee). There are plenty of electric moves with hitstun; it just doesn't send the opponent anywhere, that's the problem, and therefore can't really have hitstun. We could try flag 18....

Tone down windboxes on Fsmash I think... sadface

err Falco just seems like a mess. Might have to play him more then I can assess him. IDK about his shine but pretty sure it spikes now. I agree. Falco is a mess. >.> A fun mess though.

Luigi...uhh yeah I said enough I think. Yeah yeah he's getting nerfed

In general, here are some flaws I see through a lot of characters:

- Ridiculous movement on moving smash attacks or whatever.
- Ridiculous hitbox size increases without any effect to show its new size (sonic nair <_<). I didn't change the size on that... O.o But yeah, that's only on a few chars and it's being fixed on the most prominent one (Zelda FTW)
- I often see a lot of recovery buffs by tacking on more momentum. I think we should make recoveries WEAKER. This is basically Gentleman's Brawl64 here, might as well balance it like N64. =V Ew. No. We aren't emulating smash 64 here, we're just breaking ****.

How I think this project can be a lot cooler:

1. Smash is all about movement. Give characters a lot of cool movement tricks, like Luigi's trip momentum into stuff (WITH NO INVINCIBILITY THIS TIME >=( ) Something like this is good. Screwing with momentum is generally lulzy (see DDD dash attack)

2. I suggest damage buffs unnecessary. I feel like everyone wants people to die quicker and rack damage faster, and make their characters the best. That's fine and all but if you want to make this a fun side-game you need some balance for in-game competition, not competition by programmers. <_< It isn't that unbalanced, I don't think. High damage+dies early=use 5 stocks. :V Some buffs are really pushing it (falco upB, pretty much all of sonic (but remember, this is sonic's whole gimmick-he doesn't kill earlier, he racks damage better), various other attacks)... Kirk'll kick our *****, I hope.

3. So...I think with the hitstun rather high we can make everyone crazy good on-stage, and 0-death combos will happen anyway. Nuuuu hitstun is great how it is. ;_;

Here are some suggestions:

1. lose autosweetspot, you can keep the autosnap on hit glitch I guess. Make ledge grabs a lot smaller (and compensate with PW's backward ledge grab size code for snapping on the back). This was, surprisingly enough, voted down. >.> I wanted NASL, but the rest of the Brawl- forums said no. Normally I'd say "**** that" and just add it anyways, but Kirk was also against it. And Kirk makes the GCTs. (Well, that's a side factor; I trust kirk more than myself)

2. Reduce hitlag to some stupid low constant (50% or 55%), compensate epic moves accordingly in PSA. Also voted down. TBH though, huge hitlag makes the whole game feel more epic, makes each hit feel more like BAM YOU GOT PWNED. If anything, we'll prolly reduce the SDI mod globally.

3. Make Falcon's UpB say "Show Your Moves" on release instead of delaying the explosion. I feel it really detracts from the flow of the match, and Falcon is all about flow. Your opinion is now invalid

Just pick and choose I guess. I do feel like some characters are harder to put gimmicks on than others, but making them plain broken is kinda boring as well. =V

<3 BPC

Huge post is huge. Comments in bold. Most of it is good, and we need high-level testing like this. Which reminds me...

http://www.mediafire.com/?imcyjy4mbci

That's the pack we sent to phase 5. We're pretty close to an alpha release, but a lot of stuff just isn't polished yet. Diddy for example. (Inb4TSON. Nobody is arguing that it's not in the feeling of Brawl-; it's just stupidly overpowered and would need to be banned through a rule; UTD himself said he was going to ban diddy because it was too stupid.) Also, things like stage codes need to go in, and the like. But we aren't too far off.

 

[VietGeek]

Should I lower the speed or the damage?

I don't think the speed should be there at all; and why can't the Dsmash connect? Make it connect better and give it sh*tty priority or something. You just made it stupid but in a balanced way. =V

Have you seen Dair->dair->dair combos? seriously, they work.

That's why I want the speed-up gone. I'm not saying the move isn't good enough, I'm saying it's stupidly good in a bad way.

This is actually kinda the idea; sheik can make herself invisible (until using a power move) either by getting hit while invisible or airdodging into the ground. The idea of removing invisible on hit is prolly a good one though...

If anything make her reappear commands come BEFORE her invincibility frames end. Also add some sort of effect as she does so; ATM it looks extremely unpolished for her to just disappear just like that.

Wario's movement is really not bad enough to warrent a buff; look at ganon.

IIRC Ganon's Side-B takes him through nearly a whole stage. Except Wario's Fsmash has a huge hitbox, can be used to camp and kill, and has Super Armor. As it is it's dumb.

There are plenty of electric moves with hitstun; it just doesn't send the opponent anywhere, that's the problem, and therefore can't really have hitstun. We could try flag 18....

The glitch seems inconsistent to me. For example Ganon's UpB explosion uses the electric flag, and as you know deals no hitstun. It might be a glitch that applies to "special" hitboxes (outside of Offensive and Special Offensive Collisions).

A fun mess though.

You can make characters fun and broken without automatically seizing a crazy advantage from the get-go. Either that or you balance the the Falco ditto match since that's probably how I would beat another Falco-. =P

Ew. No. We aren't emulating smash 64 here, we're just breaking ****.

Except you already have. It is just you do not know yet. Yet. Yet.

It isn't that unbalanced, I don't think. High damage+dies early=use 5 stocks. :V Some buffs are really pushing it (falco upB, pretty much all of sonic (but remember, this is sonic's whole gimmick-he doesn't kill earlier, he racks damage better), various other attacks)... Kirk'll kick our *****, I hope.

Actually because the game is so wtfbbqhax, matches can take a while because 1-hit from any "well-made broken character" equals death anyway. Camping isn't that uncommon, it's the first thing I think of when I see Brawl (of any form), and I'm sure others feel that way too.

Nuuuu hitstun is great how it is. ;_;

I meant the hitstun was good as it is because it's already so high.

Also voted down. TBH though, huge hitlag makes the whole game feel more epic, makes each hit feel more like BAM YOU GOT PWNED. If anything, we'll prolly reduce the SDI mod globally.

It also feels incredibly clunky because everyone increases hitlag on moves anyway. But whatever lol.

Your opinion is now invalid

No u

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't think the speed should be there at all; and why can't the Dsmash connect? Make it connect better and give it sh*tty priority or something. You just made it stupid but in a balanced way. =V

Wait I don't see the problem. Sheik's Dsmash is about on the level with, I'd say, maybe ROB's or MK's; AKA a really ****ing good dsmash. You're saying that it's stupid but balanced? Abuse moar DACDS; you'll hit with multiple hits most of the time.

That's why I want the speed-up gone. I'm not saying the move isn't good enough, I'm saying it's stupidly good in a bad way.

OIC. I've heard this a couple of times... guess I'm gonna get rid of it.

If anything make her reappear commands come BEFORE her invincibility frames end. Also add some sort of effect as she does so; ATM it looks extremely unpolished for her to just disappear just like that.

I could try to make the invisibility a little cleaner. Invisible starts with any kind of dodge, ends on smash, any of her decent kill moves, or when you get hit? How does that sound?

IIRC Ganon's Side-B takes him through nearly a whole stage. Except Wario's Fsmash has a huge hitbox, can be used to camp and kill, and has Super Armor. As it is it's dumb.

The gerudo buff was needed. Ganon needed to be able to go somewhere. His mobility was ****, what else should we have done?

The glitch seems inconsistent to me. For example Ganon's UpB explosion uses the electric flag, and as you know deals no hitstun. It might be a glitch that applies to "special" hitboxes (outside of Offensive and Special Offensive Collisions).

That's just something to do with the move itself. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. We gotta try to fix it. >.> But it isn't electric that makes it have no hitstun. Go look at CF's knee and tell me that that has "no hitstun"... Eh I dunno what causes it on Ganon's upB; it sure as hell ain't lack of knocback.

You can make characters fun and broken without automatically seizing a crazy advantage from the get-go. Either that or you balance the the Falco ditto match since that's probably how I would beat another Falco-. =P

Well yeah. I'm just sayin', it ain't a bad base.

Except you already have. It is just you do not know yet. Yet. Yet.

Eh... So? :V

Actually because the game is so wtfbbqhax, matches can take a while because 1-hit from any "well-made broken character" equals death anyway. Camping isn't that uncommon, it's the first thing I think of when I see Brawl (of any form), and I'm sure others feel that way too.

I dunno... I'm not seeing a problem, I guess.

I meant the hitstun was good as it is because it's already so high.

Okay.

It also feels incredibly clunky because everyone increases hitlag on moves anyway. But whatever lol.

No u

No u

 

[VietGeek]

Wait I don't see the problem. Sheik's Dsmash is about on the level with, I'd say, maybe ROB's or MK's; AKA a really ****ing good dsmash. You're saying that it's stupid but balanced? Abuse moar DACDS; you'll hit with multiple hits most of the time.

I don't think you're understanding. Remove the speed buff, THEN make it connect better, AND give it terrible priority.

This would THEN make the move balanced but still stupidly good. I know that right now it is actually probably even better than the moves you listed. I'm telling you to redesign it, and telling you that if you redesign the way I proposed, you would still get an unbelievably good move that has a weakness.

I could try to make the invisibility a little cleaner. Invisible starts with any kind of dodge, ends on smash, any of her decent kill moves, or when you get hit? How does that sound?

Sounds fine. Also I meant you should tack on an animation before she disappears, similar to Meta Knight's Down-B or Sheik's Vanish (UpB) animation. Something like that. I think the way you programmed it will make that kinda hard though. You might have to do custom animations.

The gerudo buff was needed. Ganon needed to be able to go somewhere. His mobility was ****, what else should we have done?

o_O I'm not even talking about Ganondorf. You compared Ganondorf's Side-B horizontal distance to Wario's horizontal F-smash horizontal distance. I am saying that those two moves aren't even on the same level.

Wario's fsmash as it is is ********. Ganon's Side-B doesn't have Super Armor, doesn't outright kill, can't be used to camp, etc. so you comparing it to Wario's fsmash is a moot point.

Wario's fsmash either gets no horizontal distance or no armor at all. Having both is overkill. Brawl- might be about making things broken, but making One-Move Wonders isn't what I think Brawl- is about.

That's just something to do with the move itself. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. We gotta try to fix it. >.> But it isn't electric that makes it have no hitstun. Go look at CF's knee and tell me that that has "no hitstun"... Eh I dunno what causes it on Ganon's upB; it sure as hell ain't lack of knocback.

If you read a little more carefully you would notice I said the glitch might only affect non-normal hitboxes (which means the no hitstun glitch might only happen on projectiles and throws; Ganon's UpB is a throw collision and I am only speculating on projectiles).

I feel like you didn't read my post very well. A lot of misunderstanding on topics I thought we established enough context on for me to not have to outright say what we're talking about. =/


Also in your Phase 5 .zip, the Marth .pac and the changelist don't match up at all. I think it's your Marth .pac bundled with my Marth.pac's changelist? lol

 

[goodoldganon]

What about making the charge level on Wario's f-smash be relative to how far he goes with it. No charge = regular F-smash. Full charge = his current one.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding, I haven't slept in a while. Getting ready for phase 5 and all. ;_; Gonna think of a better reply when I'm not wasted and stressed

http://www.justin.tv/hawky111#r=XNNKaMg

 

[VietGeek]

drink some warm milk and nap already then ;_;

 

[Veril]

I know you want to let me give Lucas rocket shoes and super momentum tricks. That was the first thing I seriously researched and wrote about on Smashboards btw... Lucas and his snazzy gimmicks.