Brawl Tourney, April 26th 08, Santa Cruz CA

[Mani]

Saturday, April 26th 2008
MATCHES BEGIN 12:00 SHARP. Registration starts 1 hour prior.
------------
$5 Buy-In
1v1 Matches
3 Stock, 8:00 stock timer
Best 2 of 3 (Semi-finals and finals best 3 of 5)
Restricted stages ** (see below)
Double Elimination
NO Items
Damage Gauge: Off <--This is subject to change. You guys suck
BRING YOUR OWN CONTROLLER

PRIZES:
Prizes depend on turnout: Top 3 <32 players, Top 4 32<x<64 players, Top 6 for 64<x<128 players


Stage select:
1st match-up stage is chosen at RANDOM between:
Battlefield, Final Destination, Delfino Plaza, Yoshi's Island (New), Smashville, PS1, and Lylat Cruise.

Following matches loser can pick from any of the above stages as well as:
Pirate Ship, Norfair, Jungle Japes, Green Greens, Halberd, Frigate Orpheon,, Castle Siege, Distant Planet, Corneria
NOTE:
If enough interest is shown, a 2v2 bracket will be added. Comments are appreciated!


135 Allegro Dr., Santa Cruz, CA

Feel free to call me @ 949-933-6938

If possible, and for more details, check the facebook event @ http://www.facebook.com/event.php?ei...4122051&ref=mf

 

[Mani]

Helps if I put in the address..

135 Allegro Dr., Santa Cruz, CA

Feel free to call me @ 949-933-6938

If possible, and for more details, check the facebook event @ http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=10524122051&ref=mf

 

[Red Alert]

counterpicks are kinda generous. PS 2 is awful, orpheon can kill people when it switches (it actually can kill them off the top), bridge of elden is a walkoff.

also, PS1 is a neutral stage. Switch it with delfino plaza.

edit: wtf? damage gauge OFF? why would anyone want to play like that?

 

[Itzal]

The idea of the damage gauge off is rather odd, though interesting, but it may deter people from wanting to go to the tournament. I got a few people that are interested either way though.

 

[Gishnak]

Does anyone prefer playing with the Damage Gauge off? I don't understand this rule choice. I'd be much happier about driving three hours to this tournament if I knew the rules were a little more standard (because, in turn, that would bring more competitive smashers).

The damage gauge being turned off doesn't make sense to me, although I can understand some of the stage confusion.

Adding my two cents:
Bridge of Eldin as a counter is too advantageous to DeDeDe who is broken on walk-offs against half of the choosable characters.
Pokemon Stadium 2 is a worse version of Poke Stadium 1 in my opinion. I don't think anyone really wants to play on PS2.
Orpheon can be unfair competitively when the level flips.
Spear Pillar?! I don't think I need to go into details here.
Skyworld is typically agreed on as particularly advantageous to certain characters, seeing as ledges could be broken and characters like olimar, zss, and ivysaur are seriously gimped. Also, it is easy to hit a character into the ceiling, which in turn rockets them down. I don't like this aspect of the level.

And I agree with Red Alert, PS1 is a good neutral stage. Delfino can be a bummer for latching characters (is there a more acceptable name for characters whose recovery involves grabbing an edge from afar?), such as olimar, zss, and ivysaur, so it might be considered as a counter stage.

 

[theshmoe]

awwww

i was gona go till i saw that the Damage Gauge was off.... awww horse nuts..

 

[JTB]

Lmao, damage gauge off.

 

[pockyD]

it's ok i know all the percents

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Obviously it takes more SKILL with damage gauge off because you have less information to use so it will truly test who is better at the game.

Which is why next tourney I'm running will be all Blindfolded.

Also I might come to this, I live near downtown SC ^_^

 

[Junker4life]

i'm defintely hittin this up

 

[Mani]

I actually apologize I didn't realize the copy/paste job I did was a little old and the stage set is changed around; I will modify it accordingly

Spear Pillar and Bridge are both gone.

As for the rest of the stages, I am not dead set in them really. I will move PS1 to neutral and dump PS2 and Skyworld completely.

Damage Guage Off? You know every move of every charcter, you should be able to figure out how hurt they are. It is a CLEAR skill aspect of the game with NO randomness or detractions from the game otherwise. Besides, how often do you *really* look at it?

 

[Red Alert]

no, it's a clear memorization aspect of the game. I look at it enough to want it on.

 

[iankobe]

What the.

I was kinda excited until I read that damage gauge shizz.

 

[pockyD]

Damage Guage Off? You know every move of every charcter, you should be able to figure out how hurt they are. It is a CLEAR skill aspect of the game with NO randomness or detractions from the game otherwise. Besides, how often do you *really* look at it?

most good players check it frequently

and learning all the percents for hits, and especially learning how to calculate hit decay on the fly is just a pointless exercise that adds no depth to gameplay and instead restricts the mind to performing menial tasks instead of thinking about the action on hand

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

most good players check it frequently

and learning all the percents for hits, and especially learning how to calculate hit decay on the fly is just a pointless exercise that adds no depth to gameplay and instead restricts the mind to performing menial tasks instead of thinking about the action on hand

Agree.

It's identical to the claim that you shouldn't have life bars in other fighters. Or RPG's. Sure it requires more "skill," but so does making someone juggle in between each stock. The point being exactly what pocky said, that the skill involved does not complement the depth of the game, it's just tying a hand behind your back.

Most people at this point don't know the percents for the moves, and in fact the algorithm for % decay on moves as far as I know has not been worked out. Not to mention multi-hit moves which hit for variable %.

 

[Red Alert]

and even if the decay algorithm is figured out, there is no way anyone will be able to use it in a match. The only way to know how much damage your attack will do is to remember the amount of times you've used every attack for the current life, and the order you used them in, then run the algorithm in your head based on those two aspects.

Needless to say, it is a mathematical feat that would take a few minutes to compute for large total attacks.

 

[ProdigyKid]

I look at the damage guage quite often. It affects how you plan to attack.

SheriDAN lets teem kay?

 

[R3v3nant]

Damage gauge off? Whats the point in that unless you want us to suffer as we try to calculate the damage total while playing.

 

[Mani]

I'd have to say I *completely* disagree about the added skillset of damage gauge off. Personally, I don't ever look at it (maybe once or twice a match)

I strongly feel it is a skillset issue, but if people are THAT much against it I guess it could be turned on; I still feel *STRONGLY* about it on.....I am all ears for actual reasoning behind it tho

The issue isn't about calculating the total damage; its more about being able to tell how much damage a person has by using a move on them and seeing how far they fly back. I don't expect anyone to keep track of the total damage they've done as a running total; thats just dumb.

 

[Darth JoBak]

why the ridiculous rules?

 

[Red Alert]

I'd have to say I *completely* disagree about the added skillset of damage gauge off. Personally, I don't ever look at it (maybe once or twice a match)

I strongly feel it is a skillset issue, but if people are THAT much against it I guess it could be turned on; I still feel *STRONGLY* about it on.....I am all ears for actual reasoning behind it tho

The issue isn't about calculating the total damage; its more about being able to tell how much damage a person has by using a move on them and seeing how far they fly back. I don't expect anyone to keep track of the total damage they've done as a running total; thats just dumb.

it is not adding skill so much as it is putting annoying obstacles in the game. As a previous user has already stated, compare it to playing with one hand. Using your logic, playing one handed takes more skill and therefore everyone should have to play one handed.

 

[ChrisLionheart]

cmon mani, all fighting games have life bars. street fighter, tekken, all of them. It's when you know when to start using all your supers, or lamest combos, and for smash, it tells you when to start using moves that finish.

 

[Mani]

it is not adding skill so much as it is putting annoying obstacles in the game. As a previous user has already stated, compare it to playing with one hand. Using your logic, playing one handed takes more skill and therefore everyone should have to play one handed.

How is removing damage gauge even remotely comparable to playing WITH ONE HAND? When you hit someone with a certain move and they fly a certain distance you should know how hurt they are.

TBH I am severely disappointed in people's replies thus far. Noone has given me any real reasoning as to why its "like playing with one hand" except that it doesn't actually prevent you from doing anything you could do otherwise. But if people are really that intent on it, we can leave it on.

 

[Gishnak]

How is removing damage gauge even remotely comparable to playing WITH ONE HAND? When you hit someone with a certain move and they fly a certain distance you should know how hurt they are.

TBH I am severely disappointed in people's replies thus far. Noone has given me any real reasoning as to why its "like playing with one hand" except that it doesn't actually prevent you from doing anything you could do otherwise. But if people are really that intent on it, we can leave it on.

Playing with one hand may be a bad example, but as said many times previously, this adds no depth to the game. You say we "should" know how hurt people are depending on how far they fly. Why should we know this? The default game setting offers this information, and determining the current damage on a character based on how far they fly is less accurate.

It is, however, comparable to saying something like (if it were an option) turning off the visuals for projectiles. If someone shoots Falco's laser at you, according to your logic, you "should" know how fast it travels and still be able to dodge it. Or you could turn off the visuals for the stage and you "should" know what the stage looks exactly like, so it wouldn't change game play. Yes, people could get really good at playing with stage's visual turned off, but why add an extra handicap that rewards only memory and no skill or strategy?

And now I've decided to look at everything you've posted, and do my best to debate it.

"
Damage Guage Off? You know every move of every character, you should be able to figure out how hurt they are. It is a CLEAR skill aspect of the game with NO randomness or detractions from the game otherwise. Besides, how often do you *really* look at it?"

Again with the "should." Yeah, we can figure these things out, by why should we? Please giver reasoning. You say it's a clear skill aspect... The only skill I see is memorization. You said it has "no randomness or detractions from the game otherwise." Maybe it has no randomness, but it definitely does have detractions from the game. For one, it's one less resource to use to your advantage. Why does a player need to keep track of how much damage they've done, or land with an attack just to see how far the opponent flies, just so they can choose their strategy better? And how often do I look at it? Constantly. Depending on how much damage the other character has, certain combos do or don't work, certain kill moves will or won't work as well, spikes are much more useful at certain damages, etc. Knowing the opponents damage is a crucial part of my strategy.

"The issue isn't about calculating the total damage; its more about being able to tell how much damage a person has by using a move on them and seeing how far they fly back. I don't expect anyone to keep track of the total damage they've done as a running total; thats just dumb."

Now you explain that you believe keeping track of damage is in fact "dumb," but turning off the damage gauge is still viable because the issue is more about being able to tell how much damage a person has by using a move on them and seeing how far they fly back... Well, what if a certain character I use often uses moves that have knocback that doesn't vary very much. Then I would have to work into my strategy hitting with a move that has more noticeable variable knockback just to see how far they fly to determine what to do next. I'd much rather choose the correct strategy that is most efficient in defeating the other player quickly as opposed to working in the occasional "damage gauge test move" to determine my strategy next.


You keep explaining that no one gives actual reasoning behind why it should be off. How is this for an argument on competitive gaming?

 

[Mani]

Thank you Gishnak your post was actually relevant and your examples made sense.

BTW, you are completely correct on your statements in regards to "turning off projectile visuals" you SHOULD know how fast it goes (tho i don't think that would be a tournament appropriate option).

I guess I just don't agree that any "true" fighter should have lifebars. In fact I feel the exact opposite on the matter, but it seems that most people don't agree, and, finally, got some reasonable thinking behind it.

Though your last example was a bit shoddy... "Well, what if a certain character I use often uses moves that have knocback that doesn't vary very much." I do agree with your earlier points.

Also, in regards to it being a resource to use. Yes, with it OFF it is one less resource, but again, its equally done so to both players so ultimately its even between them. (Whether or not its a good thing is clearly of debate, but in terms of straight fairness I don't find it to unbalance anything; am I wrong?)


Damage Gauge will probably end up being ON

 

[yostuffstank]

THIS IS A BRAWLOCRACY... LEAVE IT ON!!!!............ plz

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Also, in regards to it being a resource to use. Yes, with it OFF it is one less resource, but again, its equally done so to both players so ultimately its even between them. (Whether or not its a good thing is clearly of debate, but in terms of straight fairness I don't find it to unbalance anything; am I wrong?)

Let me address this first since the point I want to make here will apply to the rest of my post. Balance is not the only reason to ban/allow something. There are 4 things: Balance, Randomness, Stalling, and "changing the game." Without going into too much detail about the other things, in my opinion the first 3 are really just special cases of the fourth. A game is defined precisely by what skills are tested in it. To change the rules of the game changes what we call "skill," e.g., if items are on, using items is now part of "skill" where they weren't without them (so by this logic, the argument that "items take no skill" makes no sense). However not all skills are created equally. I could make you juggle (sorry to reuse the example but you get the idea) in between each stock. Would that take more skill? Clearly it would. But it's a stupid skill to test, because who cares how well you can juggle in the context of Smash? So if you're going to propose a change in the rules (I'm tacitly asking you to do me the favor of agreeing that the Status Quo of Smash is to have the damage gauge on), we have to argue that the skill change is worthwhile and complements the other skills in the game. Damage gauge off is balanced, sure, but so is Master Hand randomly coming down and stealing a stock from someone with equal probability for each character. The average outcome of the match is unaffected, but clearly this is not something that would make the game better in any way.

BTW, you are completely correct on your statements in regards to "turning off projectile visuals" you SHOULD know how fast it goes (tho i don't think that would be a tournament appropriate option).

Like this example, I believe the 'blindfolded' analogy that I made in my first post is in fact apt. Removing the damage gauge is NOTHING but a limitation on the information that we have at our disposal, as is a blindfold (actually to be perfectly analogous, it should be some blindfold that masks YOUR moves since you could ostensibly figure those out from your own controller inputs, but NOT your opponent's movements). Clearly it's an extreme example but I use it to show that any rule change in this direction is unwarranted and can only interfere with the other skills of the game. That is, yes, it does take a kind of skill to play the game with no damage gauge, or blindfolded, but at what cost?

I guess I just don't agree that any "true" fighter should have lifebars. In fact I feel the exact opposite on the matter, but it seems that most people don't agree, and, finally, got some reasonable thinking behind it.

Continuing, I just don't see any reason at all to limit the information (in ANY way, whatsoever) a player has about the mechanics game in any way (I make the distinction about mechanics, because there are clear examples where it is completely anathema to the game to have every piece of information ever about the game, e.g. if you knew your opponents' cards in Poker). It can NEVER complement the other skills that are already present in the game, ONLY interfere with our execution of them. And for what? To introduce a memorization skill aspect into the game? I just frankly think that anything rote in a game is a design flaw. I have a question though, when you say no true fighting game should have life bars, do you mean the actual life bar mechanic (and if this, why?), or simply the display of it? Bushido Blade for PSX is an example of a fighter without life bars.

Though your last example was a bit shoddy... "Well, what if a certain character I use often uses moves that have knocback that doesn't vary very much." I do agree with your earlier points.

You propose that we should be able to figure out how much damage a character has with a 'test hit.' But it's not quite as simple as that, because many moves have multiple hitboxes on their body (that can also change over time. Most weaken, but Doc's nair in Melee actually got stronger, perhaps something like that exists in Brawl) that do different amounts of damage/knockback. So we'd also be required to know exactly what hitbox of the many possible of the move to judge their damage. Not to mention that hit decay is huge in this game, and the decay recovery algorithm isn't even known yet.

 

[ChrisLionheart]

aw man, bushido blade was an awesome game! Not as good as street fighter though, which all have life bars. But still i wish they would make another bushido blade for the ps3, no lifebars.

 

[Mani]

Damage gauge off is balanced, sure, but so is Master Hand randomly coming down and stealing a stock from someone with equal probability for each character. The average outcome of the match is unaffected, but clearly this is not something that would make the game better in any way.

I'm being nitpicky sure, but this example is actually not balanced. If Master Hand came down and took a stock with equal probability from either player, yes over all time it would balance out however in the limited timespan of a 7 or 8 min match there is no guarantee that it will. That would add randomness and not be equal to damage gauge off; but just being picky


As for the skills issue, I completely agree. It is a change to the skillset certainly. What I don't agree with is that it does so at a serious cost to the other skills in the game. In fact, thats the reason I am for it off; it seems to add a skillset without removing others (as well as not adding any of the things you mentioned...randomness, balance, stalling, etc).

I see the 2 skillsets being different, but I don't particularly see why everyone agrees so strongly in one way.

In any case, like someone said it is a "brawlocracy" after all

 

[yostuffstank]

damage gauge being off is, imo, a bad idea. it is true that it is a handicap for both players, but it is something that is against tradition and out of the norm. the tradition and norm of smash in terms of damage gauge is usually on. whoever here thinks damage gauge off is better is someone that would be cool with playing with 2 times damage ratio, or playing metal/giant/flower/curry/tiny/lightning/etc brawl. these are definately changes (not sure if u would call these handicaps) that affect both players equally, but they are totally out of tradition and what people are used to. so if u want damage gauge off, y not play with 2 times damage ratio, and all the special brawl crap?

am i right? or am i right?

PS.. Lanre is my homeboy!

 

[ChrisLionheart]

i love lanre too, not as much as i love lifebars in smash though.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

I'm being nitpicky sure, but this example is actually not balanced. If Master Hand came down and took a stock with equal probability from either player, yes over all time it would balance out however in the limited timespan of a 7 or 8 min match there is no guarantee that it will. That would add randomness and not be equal to damage gauge off; but just being picky

It is balanced, because the mean outcome -at the beginning of the match- is unchanged, despite increasing the standard deviation. After one instance of the event, it is no longer balanced. But that is a conditional probability, which isn't an appropriate context. You have to talk about balance from right when you hit START.

As for the skills issue, I completely agree. It is a change to the skillset certainly. What I don't agree with is that it does so at a serious cost to the other skills in the game. In fact, thats the reason I am for it off; it seems to add a skillset without removing others (as well as not adding any of the things you mentioned...randomness, balance, stalling, etc).

I don't dispute that it adds a skill, but this skill is something rote; it has no depth to it. I'm saying it's not a relevant skill to test. So even if it had no effect on the other skills (which I argue it does to a negative extent), it would still not be a good rule, by this argument.

I see the 2 skillsets being different, but I don't particularly see why everyone agrees so strongly in one way.

Well, optimally I suppose what we would have done is consider each one equally from the beginning of Brawl. It's just logistically impossible at this point because the damage meter being ON from Melee has established a status quo that is just not going to go away. I've been fighting for a long time in the SBR to get people to just have one big tourney to test items, but it seems like a futile effort. For damage meters I don't think we would have come to a different conclusion anyway even if we could have held them in equal regards at the beginning.

 

[Red Alert]

so is the damage gauge gonna be on or off? Because I'm not going to go if it's off.

 

[VANS]

darn i need a ride

 

[SuperRad]

I might show up. Maybe bring a friend or two.

And, sorry dude, but Hyuga is trouncing you hard. He's using hella fancy words and his argument is stronger.

edit: actually im going to be at calculus camp (lol nerd status) so chances are if i did show up it would be just to see DNC again.

 

[Odendaalrust]

counterpicks are kinda generous. PS 2 is awful, orpheon can kill people when it switches (it actually can kill them off the top), bridge of elden is a walkoff.

also, PS1 is a neutral stage. Switch it with delfino plaza.

edit: wtf? damage gauge OFF? why would anyone want to play like that?

Cuz it's cool and exciting.

 

[Odendaalrust]

Saturday, April 26th 2008


If possible, and for more details, check the facebook event @ http://www.facebook.com/event.php?ei...4122051&ref=mf

That fb link does not work

 

[Red Alert]

is this tournament even going to take place? I don't think I've ever seen a thread where the host does not respond to questions.

 

[Mani]

It is balanced, because the mean outcome -at the beginning of the match- is unchanged, despite increasing the standard deviation. After one instance of the event, it is no longer balanced. But that is a conditional probability, which isn't an appropriate context. You have to talk about balance from right when you hit START.

Actually in the context of a tournament it will still be unbalanced. I had a longwinded response typed out but my browser just ate it...anyway this is a moot point.


As for the tourney happening, of course it is. Just because I don't log into smash boards for a few days....cmon...


And as for damage gauge on or off, I still prefer it off and most seem to be ok with that. If there is a significant number of people who insist it on the day of the tourney, then we can turn it on.

 

[SuperRad]

Actually in the context of a tournament it will still be unbalanced. I had a longwinded response typed out but my browser just ate it...anyway this is a moot point.


As for the tourney happening, of course it is. Just because I don't log into smash boards for a few days....cmon...


And as for damage gauge on or off, I still prefer it off and most seem to be ok with that. If there is a significant number of people who insist it on the day of the tourney, then we can turn it on.

are you high? the majority of the people here are pulling for it on. in fact, i dont remember one other person besides you wanting it off.