Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[Gimpyfish62]

(this is sort of a sub topic spawned off of the other topic of mine)

after experimenting and playing the game enough the conclusion I've come to about brawl is that it's progression will be backwards.

The game starts with decent combos and gimp kills, and the only reason they exist is because people haven't mastered the defensive options in the game, as the game progresses combos will become smaller and smaller, and gimp kills will nearly fade out of existence. That's just how the game is.

In most games the progression is the opposite, starting with smaller combos and the like and ending with more elaborate things.

This makes for an eventual overly stale simplified game that isn't exciting to watch in a competitive sense, and will eventually shorten the game's overall lifespan.

discuss.

 

[Neokun]

agreed. sadly.

 

[Corigames]

I'm not sure if I agree fully, but the logic seems to be in the right place.

 

[Lecto2007]

I disagree, more playing time will lead to people disecting the games physics more and finding out new combos and types of kills leading to a characters advantage or disadvantage.
The game can only go Forwards!

 

[Gimpyfish62]

there is nothing that can possibly be found that can make up for the lack of hitstun on every move in the game

 

[Wrath`]

even ginpyfish cant get over the fact that this is not melee 2.0

 

[Lecto2007]

even ginpyfish cant get over the fact that this is not melee 2.0

Harsh but true.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

don't be ********, what about my past habits of posting would lead you to believe the fact that I'd harshly pass judgment on this game for not being exactly like it's predecessor, or without giving it a chance?

I couldn't wait for a new game, and I didn't want it to be like Melee, I wanted something new.

I've experimented thoroughly with this game, and these are the conclusions I've come to. Replying with things such as "lulz melee 2.0" and "then play melee" aren't conducive to good discussion, nor do they actually defend brawl or argue any points whatsoever.

Let's see some actual intelligence on these boards for once shall we?

 

[LouisLeGros]

hows about you actually counter his points instead of saying melee 2.0?

From everything we have seen so far Gimpy's observations are true, not just for players at the peak of Brawl's meta game, but EVERYWHERE.

Unless I'm playing Brawl deliberately in a matter to avoid the defensive mechanics (aka screwing around) that gimpy is talking about it gets really dry really quickly.

 

[Wrath`]

hows about you actually counter his points instead of saying melee 2.0?

From everything we have seen so far Gimpy's observations are true, not just for players at the peak of Brawl's meta game, but EVERYWHERE.

Unless I'm playing Brawl deliberately in a matter to avoid the defensive mechanics (aka screwing around) that gimpy is talking about it gets really dry really quickly.

i didnt say it was melee 2.0, i just said gimpy thought it was, gezee you cant even joke around any more,wow

couter his points, counter what? the fact that he cant combo against good defensive players? yeah if he cant combo it is not my deal to counter points with, you just have to adapt.

 

[Condor]

The combos are kinda the same from melee and thats why u think the game starts out with small combos and gimp kills and then declines. I think brawl emphasizes on playing many different characters and being albe to play them on an even playing field, there isn't really any new big bad combos b/c they are about the same or similar from melee. There will be some new stuff that people will find but nothing extraordinary, and thats probably what u were looking forward to. There is always going to be a view of good and bad characters, but i think that gap has been reduced and that is the point of brawl, atleast thats what i have seen

 

[derf]

having read your post on srk, ive already shared your point with some other smashers in my area and we tend to agree with you.

my personal wish is that the melee scene starts up again

(i see as a mod you have permanent 9999 post-count benefits)

 

[PwnyRide]

Title needs an edit.

'Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing for competitive players)

I did get a chance to have a crack at Brawl with a friend (thank you Freeloader!), i find it great fun to play, sure, but theres something that's not quite there (although i probably need a break of Smash alltogether) and i cant put my finger on it. I feel that Gimpy is pretty spot on.

Would it be safe to say that, as players, it's only up to us to really 'save' the game, or is it out of reach?

EDIT: Epiphany, that's what the competitive community have been trying to do, wow, this has done me good.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Less gimp kills seems like a good thing to me. Last time I checked, people shouldn't be able to kill at 17%, but I guess that's just me.

What exactly makes you say this? What evidence do you have that suggests that the only reason there are any combos now is because people haven't learned proper defense? I'm not criticizing you, I actually want to know.

 

[NES n00b]

Well, normally I would agree with you, but from my personal playing experience, I am gettin more and more combos.

Maybe my opponents did not master the defensive options or whatever. But anecdotal evidence is all I got.... oh yeah, this game is still gay.

 

[Corigames]

Gimpy, how do I get high-tier popularity like yours so that I get over 10 posts in a thread before closing/dieing?

Also, people, because someone doesn't like Brawl doesn't mean it's the end of the world! You can't really say, "Go back to melee!!11!1!11!" when the entire community is hung up on the shiny new thing. That's like saying that you use to have pool parties all the time with your friends. Now there are raves, and everybody goes to them just to check them out. You went to one and you didn't like it, while everyone else wants to keep giving it tries to see if they get better. So now what? Go sit in the pool alone? Don't go to either? No. You'll go to where your friends are!

Discussion Boards = Privilege to discuss
If you can't handle someone sticking their opinion in your face and you not having any response to it... DON'T RESPOND! Debates are cool, but when you are going to respond to this posts with, "I BET YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO A RAVE LOL." you'll know where I'm coming from.

 

[Zankoku]

What exactly makes you say this? What evidence do you have that suggests that the only reason there are any combos now is because people haven't learned proper defense? I'm not criticizing you, I actually want to know.

CPUs seem to have picked up on it since the beginning of the game. The lack of hitstun allows players to perform an action between almost every single one of his opponent's attacks, even if he got hit by one. Slower followup attempts can be broken out of with an aerial, while faster ones can be escaped via airdodge.

In other words, see Luigi/Samus from Melee when you attempt to hit them after their hitstun is gone.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Maybe Smash wasn't meant to have combos in the first place. After all, it's not meant to be considered a traditional fighting game.

 

[A New Challenger]

It sounds kind of like Virtua Fighter - the game being built at it's highest level about purely defensive strategies. Last I checked, Virtua Fighter was pretty respected. Melee... not so much.

Onwards and upwards.

 

[Zankoku]

Maybe Smash wasn't meant to have combos in the first place. After all, it's not meant to be considered a traditional fighting game.

And yet the Training Mode features a "Consecutive Hits" counter. I'm not exactly sure of its purpose since it won't go above 3 unless you do a built-in "combo" like rapid jabs or something.

 

[ellelaby]

How come when I watch the Brawl videos, they look so good? I mean, right now I'd rather play Brawl (if it would come out!) than Melee.

 

[Dream Chaser]

Title needs an edit.

'Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing for competitive players)

Super Smash Bros Brawl: Rise of the n00bs


Anyway.. I cant comment on the gameplay... still waiting for the game....

 

[Corigames]

How come when I watch the Brawl videos, they look so good? I mean, right now I'd rather play Brawl (if it would come out!) than Melee.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=44CRrJVhUIo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=X1EceHJi8Bw
http://youtube.com/watch?v=yd1FFTsecW4

Compare those to the Brawl video discussion. You will notice in melee that people didn't have to be ******** for the other person to pull of a combo! People in Melee got REAL combos, not hitting people and hoping they were dumb enough to DI back towards the rest of the pain.

Brawl videos suck, at least, right now.

 

[Condor]

That's like saying that you use to have pool parties all the time with your friends. Now there are raves, and everybody goes to them just to check them out. You went to one and you didn't like it, while everyone else wants to keep giving it tries to see if they get better. So now what? Go sit in the pool alone? Don't go to either? No. You'll go to where your friends are!


What?! I don't want to go to a Rave and neither do my friends so we chill at the pool and leave u guys the heck alone, we really don't want anything to do with u guys who go to Raves.... bad example man, if people like melee so much then others like them will continue playing it. I don't really care aobut people posting here and there about how they are dissapointed with some stuff in brawl (sometimes it gets annoying, not this post particularly). But honestly some peole just need to get over it, u can't change brawl.... and again i don't see a good point with the whole pool rave thing

 

[SenorPresidente]

All this means is that brawl will not be a game with big combos. We all know smash was never meant to be taken competitive and its very different from your average fighter. Some people don't even consider it a fighter but a platform/action/party etc.

Brawl videos will not be exciting to watch but at this point it is just preference. I enjoy watch both videos of melee and brawl. A game like smash with such a big fallowing will not die and it will most likely not revert to melee. The metagame will be very different and so will its main hard core fan base. But I may be entirely wrong this early in its life I don't plan to make any big decisions.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I haven't noticed any changes regarding combos. Competitive players really need to start treating Brawl as its own game.

 

[Corigames]

bad example man, if people like melee so much then others like them will continue playing it

One problem, big tournament hosts don't. Sure, chillin' with friends on melee is STILL A BLAST for us. The thing is, when is the next big melee tournament? EVO is supporting Brawl, and so is MLG. All the other local stores and shops are going to Brawl. It's the big hit right now, there is no more support for melee. If I want to play melee, I feel like I have to abandon all competition and chances to win or at least participate in tournaments. Which, by the way, was my favorite part of melee.

EVERYONE is at the rave. There are no pool party hosts. "Why not host your own?" Because who the **** knows me? I wasn't the best at anything in melee. I was a very good Samus. I was runner up for AZ power rankings. I was a very high tiered player, but not top. If I host a tournament, $10 pot entry, can I really expect a hundred some people to show up? No! Especially since that the pay out might not be worth the ride for most people, let alone a flight.

Sorry, pool's closed for Brawl.

 

[Frey]

I haven't noticed any changes regarding combos. Competitive players really need to start treating Brawl as its own game.

Check training mode, youll notice that few moves actually count as an inescapable combo. Which means, it would be like trying to grab a greased pig when fighting someone.

Now on topic, Well basically brawl for me isn't what melee was, its too biased towards casuals now, and doesn't hold the same feeling that melee gave. I mean seriously, watch the fall speed etc, slow as molasses, which makes 2-3 life games go longer or as long as a 5 man one in melee.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Check training mode, youll notice that few moves actually count as an inescapable combo. Which means, it would be like trying to grab a greased pig when fighting someone.

Now on topic, Well basically brawl for me isn't what melee was, its too biased towards casuals now, and doesn't hold the same feeling that melee gave. I mean seriously, watch the fall speed etc, slow as molasses, which makes 2-3 life games go longer or as long as a 5 man one in melee.

Now that you've mentioned it, I did try Falco's neutral combo near a wall and he could get over a 20 combo before the opponent broke free.

 

[Dais]

Hold on . . . A Fox Combo Video?!?! Is that all this game is About to some people? How fast you can cheaply kill someone with Fox. People would rather get kicked around by Fox than play brawl?! You know how many Foxes I've had to Fight just because he is easiest to master? Melee was unbalanced as hell, okay?!?! Lets talk about Melee's Flaws for once. A ton of people talk about it like there wasn't a thing wrong with it but I don't feel that's true. Melee had flaws, and yeah, of course Brawl does too. It's more like just trading out those flaws. Brawl is a more balanced game that is slower and takes longer to finish fights. Tournaments will conform by lowering stock AND people will learn to fight differently. We've all talked about unavoidable tiers before so I wont go there. Is Brawls combat so dumbed down that it can't be competitive? I really don't think so. So Boo Hoo, you can't watch Fox scoot around wave dashing & shining a billion times. There is not enough wrong with Brawl to completely Sh##-Can people seriously playing it.

 

[LavisFiend]

(this is sort of a sub topic spawned off of the other topic of mine)

after experimenting and playing the game enough the conclusion I've come to about brawl is that it's progression will be backwards.

The game starts with decent combos and gimp kills, and the only reason they exist is because people haven't mastered the defensive options in the game, as the game progresses combos will become smaller and smaller, and gimp kills will nearly fade out of existence. That's just how the game is.

In most games the progression is the opposite, starting with smaller combos and the like and ending with more elaborate things.

This makes for an eventual overly stale simplified game that isn't exciting to watch in a competitive sense, and will eventually shorten the game's overall lifespan.

discuss.

...For competitive players.

The games lifespan will continue to thrive with or without. Casual tournaments will still exist.

Competitive players dying interest will not destroy Brawl.

 

[Corigames]

Hold on . . . A Fox Combo Video?!?! Is that all this game is About to some people? How fast you can cheaply kill someone with Fox. People would rather get kicked around by Fox than play brawl?! You know how many Foxes I've had to Fight just because he is easiest to master? Melee was unbalanced as hell, okay?!?! Lets talk about Melee's Flaws for once. A ton of people talk about it like there wasn't a thing wrong with it but I don't feel that's true. Melee had flaws, and yeah, of course Brawl does too. It's more like just trading out those flaws. Brawl is a more balanced game that is slower and takes longer to finish fights. Tournaments will conform by lowering stock AND people will learn to fight differently. We've all talked about unavoidable tiers before so I wont go there. Is Brawls combat so dumbed down that it can't be competitive? I really don't think so. So Boo Hoo, you can't watch Fox scoot around wave dashing & shining a billion times. There is not enough wrong with Brawl to completely Sh##-Can people seriously playing it.

Yeah... that was a home run. My post was on such a higher level than you, that I don't even think you knew you were playing baseball.

The point in that post was to show that characters in melee looked like they were DOING something compared to current Brawl videos. It seems though, that you were so hell bent on going on a melee tantrum, which, by the way, was not pretty, that you missed the entire intention of everything. You know what was wrong with melee? You say it was unbalanced. Well ****, who was the best player in the world. You are a noob, so I bet you know only a handful of pros anyway, especially ken. Who did he play as? ****ING MARTH!!! OMG Fox is sooo broken! And what is this bull about him being the easiest to play with? He most certainly is not. The right is reserved to Shiek. Any new player can grab shiek, move in the direction of the enemy and hit the C-stick towards them to win. Wow, that fox with his timing, spacing, and such is just to easy to grasp.

But yeah, they totally got rid of THAT cheapness. Now we have chaingrabs off the stage with many characters, instant gimps with certain characters, and tons of wall infinites or near infinites. Yeah, this game is way better. Someone who plays Yoshi, DK, Sonic, amd other low characters completely stand a chance against all that bull.

So, Boo-hoo, attention *****.

 

[Gamerjoe]

While I can’t argue so much about the eventual decrease of the competitive elements in brawl, those elements having been what made melee great, do you think there are any redeeming elements in brawl that will shape it into perhaps a different competitive experience Gimpy? Of course it may be too early to tell or Brawl may go into a direction that no one expected. I would just like to hear more about your thoughts on the future of Brawl, or have you counted it out as a competitive game entirely?

 

[Resident_Smash_Genius]

This game will not stop being fun for years. Smash 64 is still fun. The game's lifespan will be as long as your wii's. There is no reason to doubt that.

 

[WaterTails]

Hold on . . . A Fox Combo Video?!?! Is that all this game is About to some people? How fast you can cheaply kill someone with Fox. People would rather get kicked around by Fox than play brawl?!

Compare those to the Brawl video discussion. You will notice in melee that people didn't have to be ******** for the other person to pull of a combo! People in Melee got REAL combos, not hitting people and hoping they were dumb enough to DI back towards the rest of the pain.

Dais, read the rest of the post. It was posted to show that in Melee, it was actually possible to get combos, which is nigh impossible to do in Brawl.

...even though some of those vids aren't the greatest examples, because WDing wasn't a few months of the release.

 

[kazaken455]

I personally like Brawl a lot more then Melee. Even if everyone learns all the defensive moves, you are still going to hit them and get combo's in, it will just be harder. I've seen some of your matches Gimpy. I've seen you put combo's on people and do a great amount of damage. I just feel that people will grow to learn how to combo people who even use the defensive technique. It just takes some observing skills.

 

[Desruprot]

This does curtainitly seem like the way it is going, but I view it as a good thing...Bigger Fights...

 

[Corigames]

...that isn't the greatest example, though, seeing as WDing wasn't discovered within three weeks of the American release.

Then again, how big was the melee community at 3 weeks into the game? And, I know, there were a ton of people debugging it. Now compare that to Brawl; the number is vastly larger, yet we haven't found much to dittly. The closest things are roll canceling items and dash attacking out of shields. Nothing that separates a new player from a veteran.

I haven't fully looked into the argument about # of melee players at release vs # of Brawl, but I can only imagine that it would be more. Plus, now that smashboards and other sites are up, the community is stronger and should be able to find things more efficiently.

Who knows?

 

[Spife]

Then again, how big was the melee community at 3 weeks into the game? And, I know, there were a ton of people debugging it. Now compare that to Brawl; the number is vastly larger, yet we haven't found much to dittly.

^This.

I really wish, as a community, we could remove "Smash" from the title of both Melee and Brawl and have a competitive scene for both. I know EVO and MLG wont be sponsoring Melee, and that's not going to help my case but the games are so different and the community is up in the air in terms of brawl and how competitive it can get, I just think literally separating Melee from Brawl would be a good idea. We would have a choice of which game to play, which metagame to master (or develop) and which tournaments to go to.

OT: Brawl is fun and I'm really interested to see where it goes, but I still love the versatility that Melee has.

 

[Rash]

Gimpy, just play as the improved Bowser and have fun. And we already had a thread about this. Just because it isn't made by you DOESN'T MEAN YOU WEREN'T QUOTED WITH THE EXACT SAME WORDS IN ANOTHER THREAD.