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HAHAHAHAHAHAThe biggest issue right now that i'm dealing with is brawl as it is right now is a complete joke
In the Melee, "thinking" amounted to "is he going to hit me right now", if the answer is yes, press button sequence A, if no press button sequence B. I'm not saying its impossible to use mindgames and think in Melee, i'm saying YOU DON'T HAVE TO for the most part. The overwhelming majority of player have one specific favorite way to recover from the edge, and they AUTOMATICALLY do it without thinking, everytime UNTIL they begin to get punished for it. I'm sure you don't still think this, but i've heard you yourself say in the past that your main strat for Fox was to spam drillshine and kill with up-smash. This basically defines how most people play Melee. They press pre-remembered buttons really fast in hopes they they are too fast for their opponents.In Melee you had to think, and you actually had to be fast about it. There were so many situations that could arise within the next 1 - 2 seconds that you had to be thinking constantly about what could happen. For instance, Fox edgeguarding Fox/Falco, the whole process takes approximately 1 second. In that time you have to decide whether your opponent is going to try to sweetspot the edge with an over-B, sweet spot with an up-B, up-B above the edge and move onto the stage, up-B into the stage, over-B to land on the stage, shortened over-B to grab the edge, over-B onto a platform, and up-B onto a platform. Each one of these requires a different edgeguarding tactic, and you have to decide which to use in about one second. And this is just one situation. There are hundreds more of situations like this where you have to think extremely quickly about what to do, and then you have to execute a plan to deal with the situation, in a very limited amount of time.
So don't say in Melee you don't have to think or outwit your opponent. That's just not true. You just have to think a lot faster. For some people, maybe they aren't able to think that fast so they just do random things, but the farther you advance competitively, the more every single move is done for a purpose. Because if you do something that the situation doesn't call for, chances are good you're going to be punished, which in Melee is a lot more than taking a random hit. You have to be thinking CONSTANTLY.
Unless we elminate Pit, Toon Link, Falco, Wolf and (sadly) Dedede from Meta game then Brawl will never have any sort of good mindgames. If you're gonna dumb it down, basically the tactical Brawl mindsets boils down to:In the Melee, "thinking" amounted to "is he going to hit me right now", if the answer is yes, press button sequence A, if no press button sequence B. I'm not saying its impossible to use mindgames and think in Melee, i'm saying YOU DON'T HAVE TO for the most part. The overwhelming majority of player have one specific favorite way to recover from the edge, and they AUTOMATICALLY do it without thinking, everytime UNTIL they begin to get punished for it. I'm sure you don't still think this, but i've heard you yourself say in the past that your main strat for Fox was to spam drillshine and kill with up-smash. This basically defines how most people play Melee. They press pre-remembered buttons really fast in hopes they they are too fast for their opponents.
Winning in Melee was a matter of not messing up and being faster than your opponent. That's all it takes to win in Melee. It's very very rare that someone actually wins by out thinking their opponent.
In Brawl, sure there are tactics to learn, but they don't work every time, and we've still got more time to learn stuff about the game, but as of now, Brawl is almost all in-game adaptation and prediction. Sure we memorize which moves do what, but what we actually meomrize is limited due to how much the game let's people get away from combos.
This is completely true. Brawl is a completely different beast from Melee. This is why I enjoy Brawl just as much as Melee. I made a post explaining how both games are equal but the type of players that enjoy Brawl aren't the same kind of players that enjoy melee (there is a few exceptions out there.) I actually enjoy the defense oriented Brawl game just as much as the offense oriented Melee game. The two are just as deep. You're just not seeing it because you're not the type of player that enjoys Brawl's style. This does not mean that Brawl sucks. Look at some of my previous posts in this thread that explains the skill involved in Brawl.I came from the Halo community as well and while there is some merit to the comparison, I don't think Brawl will find anything to save itself because the changes to the engine are too significant.
Changes from Halo CE to Halo 2 were mostly a series of minor changes that cumulatively made for a weaker game. For instance, larger hit boxes for online play, instant-explosion grenades, easier melees, more auto-aim, more reticule magnetism, less balanced maps, broken weapons (plasma pistol...). It was still very recognizably Halo and the game felt more or less the same, the largest MAJOR changes being the decreased viewing angle from 90 to 70 degrees, the decreased run speed, and the introduction of a hit-scan based projectile system. But someone good at Halo CE could pick up Halo 2 with no problem and in fact might not even notice some of these changes without really looking for them.
On the other hand, Brawl is an entirely differen beast from Melee. They don't feel similar at all. The core mechanics of Melee were abandoned and the new engine is completely different.
Moreover, the naive notion that glitch discovery is inevitable is not true just because it happened with SOME other games. When developers make a very conscious effort to dumb down gameplay like Nintendo did with Brawl, and when thousands of people have been deliberately searching for these glitches, knowing the kinds of things to look for, and still haven't found anything, this naive optimism becomes unwarranted.
The physics engine in the Halo games is much more complicated than Smash. There are so many possible weaponglitches, and they can be very obscure. In Halo 2 the doubleshot, for instance, is a very obscure technique that took a long time to discover because there's no reason to expect the battle rifle to perform that way. The exploits in Smash, however, are fundamental consequences of the physics engine. Wavedashing is just airdodging at an angle such that the game conserves momentum. I couldn't even begin to describe how the doubleshot works. You press R, rapidly press R again, while holding hit X. The timing is difficult. Why does it work this way? I have no idea. It's undoubtedly an actual glitch.
There were very few true glitches throughout the Smash series, I think, because the physics engines are simpler than in FPS. You don't have the complex terrains to map, just 2-D stages. You don't have to design ballistics systems for all these different guns. There are just way fewer things that can go wrong.
I don't think anything significant will come up because Nintendo tried to very hard to avoid players gaining any kind of advantage, much like Bungie did with Halo 3. Halo CE was good by accident, Halo 2 was playable by even bigger accident, but as far as I know Halo 3 is complete garbage. At some point a developer wises up to these accidents.
We're not. It's the april fools thing. The site automaticly changes certain words into other words. Sometimes it's the opposit or something entirely different.Wtf Y Is Everyone Switching Melee For Brawl??? In your posts??
That's what this day is for, dude.LOL, you gotta love the word filter. It's making things quite chaotic and humorous XD.
Brawl isn't just a mindless campfest. If this was the case then a better player would occasionally lose to a worse player. None of my friends can best me in Brawl. I am not bragging about my skill but there is skill involved. I won't claim that the game never turns into camping but that doesn't mean the skill isn't there. The fast paced combos are no longer there in Brawl. If you try to be offensive all the time you're going to lose for sure. This is true as well. The game now requires a lot of thinking. Every move has to be thought out. Every action. Now it's important to try to get your opponent to make a move you want to them to make.the entire idea of the game was completely counter productive to itself and its franchise and completely ignorant to the idea of the competive market and the art of re-buying a game.
I'm already at tournament level gameplay in my region and i havent done jack ****, its quite sad really.
Now im not bragging at my skill, the point im illustrating is that the game is insanely shallow when compared to melee and when the simple complexities (oxymoron in my boards? its more likely than you think) of the gameplay is discovered... or rather just thought about, the game suddenly becomes a massive camp spam fest where thinking, quick reaction skills and overall inginuity of it all somehow never seem to cross paths when your playing 8rawl.
edit: wth... is brawl being filtered into melee?
8rawl m3l33, it is watch out...
This really isn't true. There are always a lot of scenarios that can arise in very short amounts of time, and you have to be thinking about what to do for those scenarios. If I'm sitting there laser camping I do have to constantly be answering the question "is he going to hit me right now" but at the same time I'm looking for my own openings, thinking about what moves will combo into kill moves, etc., based on the damage my opponent is at. It's also not as simple as "if yes, A else B" as there are a variety of tactics that may or may not work depending on specific approaches. In a Fox vs. Falco match for instance, I might try to intercept a dair with a utilt, usmash, or shield and try to time a shield grab or JC shine.In the Melee, "thinking" amounted to "is he going to hit me right now", if the answer is yes, press button sequence A, if no press button sequence B.
Not true at all, except at very low levels of play. Tech skill only gets you so far. At most tournaments everyone's tech skill is near the same level, anyway. Most good tournament players are capable of playing Fox, the most tech-heavy character in the game. Yet choosing Fox hardly grants an automatic victory, even if you have very high tech skill. His matchups are more complicated than many other characters and you have to know them very well.theONEjanitor said:I'm not saying its impossible to use mindgames and think in Melee, i'm saying YOU DON'T HAVE TO for the most part.
I very much doubt it. Again this is perhaps true at very low levels of play, but anyone not thinking will be punished, especially for something like recovering in the same pattern.theONEjanitor said:The overwhelming majority of player have one specific favorite way to recover from the edge, and they AUTOMATICALLY do it without thinking, everytime UNTIL they begin to get punished for it.
I do remember telling you something like this, but I was using hyperbole, emphasizing my lack of knowledge of Fox at the time. Fox's dair is actually not that spammable, due to its tiny hitboxes and lack of priority. Most any move will beat it. Even if you hit with a dair, it frequently gets DId so the shine will miss if you don't quickly react to your opponents DI by slamming left/right to adjust the dair. Fox's most spammable move is perfectly SHFFLd nairs, which are fairly hard to do and highly punishable if you mess up. For instance, Peach can CC into a dsmash if you don't fast fall it. You also get dsmashed if you miss an L-cancel or misspace the nair so the shine misses. This translates to something like 60 damage since Fox will be holding down at the time. Usmash is not spammable either. I usually try to combo into it or else uthrow => uair which although inescapable for many characters is not that easy to do.theONEjanitor said:I'm sure you don't still think this, but i've heard you yourself say in the past that your main strat for Fox was to spam drillshine and kill with up-smash. This basically defines how most people play Melee. They press pre-remembered buttons really fast in hopes they they are too fast for their opponents.
How could you possibly even know this? It may not be apparent to you that people are thinking during their matches but they probably are. The only way you could know this is if you were winning tournaments without thinking, or else if others winning tournaments admitted they do not think. I've never even heard of this happening. Silent Wolf generally gets wrecked by Ka-Master despite being one of the most technical Foxes in the world. Technical proficiency doesn't let you win, at all. Else I'd be amazing at this game.theONEjanitor said:Winning in Melee was a matter of not messing up and being faster than your opponent. That's all it takes to win in Melee. It's very very rare that someone actually wins by out thinking their opponent.
Against whom? I can't really contradict you since I haven't played you in a long time, but unless your Fox has improved drastically this seems unlikely. Regardless, you contradict yourself in this statement. Your DD/wd camping and error baiting is thinking. You admit you don't attack indiscriminately, you try to create openings and then attack when you see them. That's thinking.theONEjanitor said:When i play Fox in melee, I dash dance/wavedash around, and space n-airs, and wait for the opponent to mess up, in which time I drillshine, waveshine to grab upthrow-upair, or upsmash, or another waveshine, depending on the character. it requires no thinking. AND IT WORKS.
I've never seen your Falcon, but I've played NES n00b's Falcon quite a bit. He's good. He doesn't play how you describe at all. Falcon is a complicated character. His combos require rapid improvisation based on opponent's DI, tech-chasing, etc., and precise spacing to properly execute them. His recovery is also so horrible that the Falcon has to be EXTREMELY smart about his recovery to even have a chance of not getting *****.theONEjanitor said:With falcon I attempt to space nairs, and immediately grab--downthrow, and either up-air or knee. i do this because I already know it will work. if I avoid getting hit and keep doing this, I will win. it requires no thinking, and It works.
How do you know why you lose? The only explanation of losing you can be certain about is "I got outplayed." Perhaps you can try to attribute your loss to certain critical errors that lead to stock conversions. Perhaps your opponent also made errors and you didn't capitalize as well. "My opponent is faster than me"--what does this even mean? He hits buttons faster than you? He thinks and reacts faster than you? That sounds like a valid reason for losing to me, and is generally what is meant by "I got outplayed."theONEjanitor said:I'm not the greatest player, but the only reason I lose is when I mess up, or when my opponent is faster than me.
So keep practicing. Melee has a high learning curve, admittedly, but rapid improvement is popular. I've been playing not much longer than a year, in Mississippi, and I've gotten OKAY at this game. I can get a lot better.theONEjanitor said:It just so happens that most people who've practice for so long are much faster and more efficient than me. I've never felt like "omg that dude totally tricked me or mindgamed me" THAT NEVER HAPPENS. (in brawl, this happens almost everytime you hit someone if its not because they simply don't know the game well)
There really are no combos in Melee that work like this. Even simple combos like chaingrabs are a little more complicated to execute. Marth's chaingrab against the spacies for instance requires watching DI, adjusting grab direction, pivoting grabs around 28 - 30, when to transition into utilts, when to regrab, when to attempt a tipper, etc. It's not set in stone. You have to play fluidly. Even the type of combos you're probably thinking of, like drillshine combos, are not that straightforward. First off your opponent can DI the drill. Assume your shine connects though. From this point there are a variety of things that can happen. Some characters fall, and if you do a perfect wavedash you can jab them to make them stand or roll. Depending on which they do, you time a uair. For the characters that don't fall, a variety of things can happen. Take Marth for instance. If Marth DIs toward you a wavedash => usmash will work. If he doesn't DI or DIs away even a perfect wavedash will not generally hit, so you wavedash => dash => JC grab => uthrow. Now, depending on your opponent's damage, you either have to do a FJ => uair, instant double jump => uair, or late timed double jump => uair. This depends on how he DIs the throw as well. You have to mash left/right immediately if he DIs the throw. He can also smash DI the first hit of the uair. If you're paying attention you can follow him as he falls to the ground and perhaps hit him anyway. But if you're just randomly throwing out these "drillshine combos" you will have a much lower success rate than you would if you were thinking, which means you will lose against thinking opponents. Basically, the types of combos you're thinking of, with some exceptions, do not really exist because of DI.theONEjanitor said:What happens in Melee is, "omg that dude totally did a pre-remembered combo sequence on me".
You're using a strange definition of thinking. We're not talking about abstract reasoning or writing dissertations here. We're talking about rapid mental computations and decision-making. Generally if your opponent "outthinks" you this just means he's always a step ahead of you because he predicts and reacts to your behavior faster than you do to his.theONEjanitor said:When someone capitalizes on a mistake, its not because they had to "think". its because they knew automatically what to do in this situation. If they DI toward me, this will work. Its pre-remembered. The only brain function involved is looking and confirming they have indeed DI'd towards you.
Name one good player who doesn't play smart. Just one.theONEjanitor said:Melee was a game of learning combos and remember techs and tactics. There was very little thinking needed to be a good player. Those who did implement TRUE on-the-spot thinking, those were the people that rose above everyone else. But it wasn't necessary to be considered a good player.
I think Brawl will devolve into MORE memorization because what will become important is knowing the sizes of hitboxes so you can precisely space that GW bair.theONEjanitor said:In Brawl, sure there are tactics to learn, but they don't work every time, and we've still got more time to learn stuff about the game, but as of now, Brawl is almost all in-game adaptation and prediction. Sure we memorize which moves do what, but what we actually meomrize is limited due to how much the game let's people get away from combos.
WOWI'm not the greatest player, but the only reason I lose is when I mess up, or when my opponent is faster than me. It just so happens that most people who've practice for so long are much faster and more efficient than me. I've never felt like "omg that dude totally tricked me or mindgamed me" THAT NEVER HAPPENS.
Seriously, he thinks that faster fingers are the only thing that beats him?WOW
John much?
Great post. Except the very first point might not really be accurate, as it would probably just come down to the better camper.Brawl isn't just a mindless campfest. If this was the case then a better player would occasionally lose to a worse player. None of my friends can best me in Brawl. I am not bragging about my skill but there is skill involved. I won't claim that the game never turns into camping but that doesn't mean the skill isn't there. The fast paced combos are no longer there in Brawl. If you try to be offensive all the time you're going to lose for sure. This is true as well. The game now requires a lot of thinking. Every move has to be thought out. Every action. Now it's important to try to get your opponent to make a move you want to them to make.
This won't win you the game as it would in melee. You have to be able to consistantly do this in order to have the match. Another part of the game is patience. You must have impeccable defense. While doing your defense you got to outlast your opponent and whittle away at his health. When he's killable you got to be able to safely predict his moves in order to approach and make the kill. The games last a lot longer than melee. Everything must be thought out. Every move you make must be precise, accurate, and on time. Spacing is very important. Mind games are very important. If you approach you're putting everything on the line. If you screw up you take damage, they're untouched, and you're back at square one leaving them with a major advantage.
I understand that most people cannot get into a style like this but some of us actually like it. To win a game of Brawl you have to be several steps ahead of your opponent. I'm leaving out some other tactics but they're not all necessary. I am not claiming that Brawl takes more skill than melee. It just takes a different kind of skill. Brawl is more about tactics, strategy, and a bit of cleverness. Melee is about combos, reflex, and quick thinking. Of course this isn't all that's involved in both games but it's an example. So please stop trying to claim that overall Brawl is a worse game. In the traditional fighter sense? Perhaps it is but as a game? No. The competitive nature in Brawl is equal to Melee if you count out the tripping but tripping isn't bad enough to break the game either.
Brawl is very different than the two previous games before it. It has little in common in terms of strategy than the past games. This is why I claim that Brawl resembles chess more than a traditional fighter. It's like chess with a fighter twist or perhaps a fighter with a chess like twist. This isn't to say it's exactly like chess or requires the same ammount of intelligence or strategy as chess. It's just more comparable to chess than a traditional fighter. You guys hate competitive Brawl. I like competitive brawl. I am sorry if they stop hosting Melee tournaments. I don't think this should happen considering how different brawl is compared to melee but if it does? There's not much that can be done.
**** straight son. I mindgame all sorts of *****es. XD lolI've never seen your Falco, but I've played NES n00b's Falco quite a bit. He's good. He doesn't play how you describe at all. Falco is a complicated character. His combos require rapid improvisation based on opponent's DI, tech-chasing, etc., and precise spacing to properly execute them. His recovery is also so horrible that the Falco has to be EXTREMELY smart about his recovery to even have a chance of not getting *****.
More mind game over combos? This fighting game that you are talking about must be the greatest fighter ever made. And what do you know about combos anyway, just push your up B. And oh yea, Bowser is soooooooooooooooooo exciting to watch in a competitive sense. Win a major tournament for your fans, just once, PLEASE.(this is sort of a sub topic spawned off of the other topic of mine)
In most games the progression is the opposite, starting with smaller combos and the like and ending with more elaborate things.
This makes for an eventual overly stale simplified game that isn't exciting to watch in a competitive sense, and will eventually shorten the game's overall lifespan.
discuss.
EDITED:
I personally agree with you Gimpy, but I hope that you're wrong..., i want melee to have a competitive scene =(
Pity that melee isnt brawl 2.0 honestly, i wonder what sakurai-san was thinking when he killed melees online play, made the game half as fast and screwed over combos X_x
Oh well, only time will tell
yea, i realized that 10 seconds later, lawl