Bread & Butter punishes on Sheik?

[PlamZ]

Hey everyone.

Lately I've been wanting to perfect my punish game on Sheik. Since it can be difficult to experiment alone (I do not have access to 20XX, sadly), I decided I should be studying my decision trees so that I can apply them in a real match.

Even though I've seen a couple thread with bits and pieces of what I was seeking, it always seem to miss some small components...

So, what are the guaranteed follow-up on sheik? That includes tech-chases, throws, juggles, ETC. Also, if it's not guaranteed all the time, what are the damage and/or DI required that makes it guaranteed?

Thanks!

 

[Link24a]

Uthrow confirms to up utllt at certain percents
aerial strings are pretty free until like 60 or so

barely anything is ever confirmed regardless of di.

remember that shes a moderately fast faller with pretty high gravity so juggles work well

just jump after aerials and take opportunities when you get them. thats what i do. up tilt, up throw, and almost every aerial are great starters

as they said in the documentary, you play this like jazz. as opposed to say street fighter which is like classical music.

 

[PlamZ]

Uthrow confirms to up utllt at certain percents
aerial strings are pretty free until like 60 or so

barely anything is ever confirmed regardless of di.

remember that shes a moderately fast faller with pretty high gravity so juggles work well

just jump after aerials and take opportunities when you get them. thats what i do. up tilt, up throw, and almost every aerial are great starters

as they said in the documentary, you play this like jazz. as opposed to say street fighter which is like classical music.

My biggest problem is that u-throw utilt is not really guaranteed and can be jumped out off with a 1 to 2 frame window most of the time. It seems like I really need the sheik to mess up or get a b-throw at middle percent to force a platform situation.

 

[Stride]

In case you haven't already read this: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-8#post-16084304

 

[Smashing Turnips]

My biggest problem is that u-throw utilt is not really guaranteed and can be jumped out off with a 1 to 2 frame window most of the time.

In this case, if you can read their jump, you can delay your up-tilt or opt for an up-air, and combo Sheik until death. Sheik has a very hard time coming down against Marth (like most characters).

 

[SwiftBass]

correct me if I am wrong but around late 30s- ealry 40s throw utilt gets iffy. Sometimes I can't tell from the uthrow if I will hit. I will throw utilt out anyways and if it doesn't hit(they DJ out) and they are NOT DI'ing away I immediately sh uair them on the way down. If they aren DI'ing away for defense they are generally in an attacking range after the DJ.

 

[Wafflesaurus]

Someone said so before but check the Kadano thread. It has guaranteed follow ups. Most important ones to know are that you can up tilt any DI between 22-30 (turning on back DI) and between 32 and 45 dash into fair is guaranteed on forward and backwards DI, and up air (and most of the time up tilt) is guaranteed on no DI.
On low % which don't have guaranteed follow ups you can see how your opponent reacts after up throw and react accordingly e.g. if they jump wait for them to jump and start up air juggles, if they don't jump, up tilt them etc.
You can also tech chase, which I recommend to keep them honest. Near 0 you should do a down throw to try to force the tech and start from there. You can get cheesy regrabs on forward throw but opponents with experience will know how to get out of them easily.
A lot of the times you can also get the guaranteed up air to cover all tech options on platform which is on the kadano thread (although the example uses a fox)
Edge guarding consists on doing regular get ups from the ledge into grabs and throwing shiek offstage again or hitting her with dolphin slash or f smash (this won't kill until really high % if you are sending sheik to the other side of the stage). When you throw her off stage there's a lot of mixups you can do. If you know your opponent likes to wait and do a sweetspot double jump, you can wavedash off into fair into up b or run off double jump dair. if they like to instantly do a double jump into aerial just space correctly and d tilt or f smash them etc. You need to be creative here.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Based on the kadano analysis I would say tech chase until the time you can get Utilt going and into Uair or Fair level. At some point you are going to lose your guaranteed stuff and will have to do your punishes on Sheik through juggle/edgeguard advantages.

Only beware that some tech chase situations are tricky. With the right DI you might simply Dthrow/Fthrow the person directly onto the ledge because they tech'd in place and slide onto the ledge. Or they simply slide off in no tech and caught the ledge. Similar with Sheik has a huge tech back rolll.

 

[SwiftBass]

Someone said so before but check the Kadano thread. It has guaranteed follow ups. Most important ones to know are that you can up tilt any DI between 22-30 (turning on back DI) and between 32 and 45 dash into fair is guaranteed on forward and backwards DI, and up air (and most of the time up tilt) is guaranteed on no DI.
On low % which don't have guaranteed follow ups you can see how your opponent reacts after up throw and react accordingly e.g. if they jump wait for them to jump and start up air juggles, if they don't jump, up tilt them etc.
You can also tech chase, which I recommend to keep them honest. Near 0 you should do a down throw to try to force the tech and start from there. You can get cheesy regrabs on forward throw but opponents with experience will know how to get out of them easily.
A lot of the times you can also get the guaranteed up air to cover all tech options on platform which is on the kadano thread (although the example uses a fox)
Edge guarding consists on doing regular get ups from the ledge into grabs and throwing shiek offstage again or hitting her with dolphin slash or f smash (this won't kill until really high % if you are sending sheik to the other side of the stage). When you throw her off stage there's a lot of mixups you can do. If you know your opponent likes to wait and do a sweetspot double jump, you can wavedash off into fair into up b or run off double jump dair. if they like to instantly do a double jump into aerial just space correctly and d tilt or f smash them etc. You need to be creative here.

Thanks for that. I go off feeling a lot but its great knowing specifics like that. Notes taken!

 

[FE_Hector]

Edge guarding consists on doing regular get ups from the ledge into grabs and throwing shiek offstage again or hitting her with dolphin slash or f smash (this won't kill until really high % if you are sending sheik to the other side of the stage). When you throw her off stage there's a lot of mixups you can do. If you know your opponent likes to wait and do a sweetspot double jump, you can wavedash off into fair into up b or run off double jump dair. if they like to instantly do a double jump into aerial just space correctly and d tilt or f smash them etc. You need to be creative here.

That depends very much upon the situation. In general, I recommend WD off to grab the stage and to keep her Vanish from allowing her up via that route. Once she Vanishes (right before if she's super close to you), use the roll up. It gives you control over the ledge for a ridiculously long time and can keep just about every angle from getting the ledge. If she opts to land on the stage and your timing is good enough, you can either fsmash or reverse fsmash her after that to force her back off the ledge. I've done it a number of times and myself, and I will say that the timing is possible.

Seriously, though, edgeguarding is one of the most important things in this MU. If you catch your opponent by surprise or just land a solid combo, it's possible to get her off the edge at fairly low %s, and Marth does not want her getting back on stage. Heck, he doesn't even want her getting on the ledge cuz she can just Shino Stall and leave you lost for what to do (though Kadano does cover that).

 

[SwiftBass]

That depends very much upon the situation. In general, I recommend WD off to grab the stage and to keep her Vanish from allowing her up via that route. Once she Vanishes (right before if she's super close to you), use the roll up. It gives you control over the ledge for a ridiculously long time and can keep just about every angle from getting the ledge. If she opts to land on the stage and your timing is good enough, you can either fsmash or reverse fsmash her after that to force her back off the ledge. I've done it a number of times and myself, and I will say that the timing is possible.

Seriously, though, edgeguarding is one of the most important things in this MU. If you catch your opponent by surprise or just land a solid combo, it's possible to get her off the edge at fairly low %s, and Marth does not want her getting back on stage. Heck, he doesn't even want her getting on the ledge cuz she can just Shino Stall and leave you lost for what to do (though Kadano does cover that).

Gotta be careful with the roll up. I wouldn't consider it a go to option until I see that the opponent is trying to poof to the ledge with me doing regular get up or wave dash. I like to establish regular get up and WD get up because you have more freedom and time on stage to react to shiek's landing.(WD on allows the most time for me to line up tippers) regular getup can defend against poof to the ledge if timed right but not all of the time if shiek does the nice delay poof where she poofs a little above the ledge or at an weird angle.

While roll on defends against all methods of poofing on ledge better than regular get up or WD(which doesn't really defend) it lacks in freedom to cover shiek when she lands on stage. You can get a few rolls where you cover everything but shiek poofing at the end of the stage or on platform near the end of the stage is tough to cover optimally. Also if shiek poof pretty far into stage its hard to be optimal. I find alot of the time that marths will roll and get no tipper fsmash or do something else that can be DI'd well enough for shiekd to get into DJ ledge grab range. basically if shiek thinks you are gonna roll she has a few options to negate your counterattack AND be on stage in a safe position.

Its a better mix up then a go to. I much prefer regular get up as a go to. It helps to set up WD on which is imo the best poof on stage option cover as it gives you the most freedom frame wise. WD on doesn't cover ledge nearly as well as regular getup or roll but its up to you as the marth to keep shiek honest and establish ledge as a non option early with things like(regular getup, roll, attack getup) etc.

In short there really isnt one solid go to for a shiek. while her recovery is very formulaic, there are still small variances in style that can change how an opponent will choose to recover and one or two of those extra chances because you chose the wrong option as marth can be the game.

 

[Wafflesaurus]

Based on the kadano analysis I would say tech chase until the time you can get Utilt going and into Uair or Fair level. At some point you are going to lose your guaranteed stuff and will have to do your punishes on Sheik through juggle/edgeguard advantages.

Only beware that some tech chase situations are tricky. With the right DI you might simply Dthrow/Fthrow the person directly onto the ledge because they tech'd in place and slide onto the ledge. Or they simply slide off in no tech and caught the ledge. Similar with Sheik has a huge tech back rolll.

I Still think mixing in up throw with d throws to tech chase is worth it. Reading their jump (or lack thereof) can easily lead into a kill. Tech chasing until guaranteed stuff is doable in theory but it can be harder in practice because of the things you said (although 22 is not such a hard % to reach with tech chase, even though Marth does little damage after every throw).

 

[FE_Hector]

I Still think mixing in up throw with d throws to tech chase is worth it. Reading their jump (or lack thereof) can easily lead into a kill. Tech chasing until guaranteed stuff is doable in theory but it can be harder in practice because of the things you said (although 22 is not such a hard % to reach with tech chase, even though Marth does little damage after every throw).

I agree. Marth's Uthrow can follow up pretty easily, even if not everything is guaranteed, and Sheik is much weaker in the air than Marth is if Sheik's above him.

 

[DeadPigeon]

I agree. Marth's Uthrow can follow up pretty easily, even if not everything is guaranteed, and Sheik is much weaker in the air than Marth is if Sheik's above him.

I disagree with "Sheik is much weaker in the air than Marth is if Sheik's above him". I think that both characters are very weak in the air against the other. Shiek can do pretty much any aerial besides dair to continue comboing marth in the air.

 

[FE_Hector]

I disagree with "Sheik is much weaker in the air than Marth is if Sheik's above him". I think that both characters are very weak in the air against the other. Shiek can do pretty much any aerial besides dair to continue comboing marth in the air.

But Marth can dair sheik to force her to back off. I've done it plenty

 

[DeadPigeon]

But Marth can dair sheik to force her to back off. I've done it plenty

Depending on the situation, the sheik could outspace the dair with a uair, bair, or nair. Or they could try to bait out the dair and punish it's extreme lag.

 

[FE_Hector]

Depending on the situation, the sheik could outspace the dair with a uair, bair, or nair. Or they could try to bait out the dair and punish it's extreme lag.

I've never seen uair outspace Marth's falling dair, but baiting it out is possible. Still, it's better to try SOMETHING than get uair juggled to death