C stick fastfall options/A+B techs

[DariusM27]

Intro - This thread is about using A to do air attacks and C stick to fastfall. Also it is about doing a+b movement options, which is basically bidou type inputs

Preface - The control setup involves C stick set to Smash and A+B=Smash turned on.


I'm going to be cataloguing and describing the different things you can do with these controls, and I encourage others to test it out as well.

Disclaimer - I am in no way suggesting that these techs necessarily cannot be done some other way or saying that some groundbreaking tech has been discovered.

- Initial impressions -

Fair fastfall, Uair fastfall, and Dair fastfall all seem much more effective and easy to control using this input method.
All are drastic differences for me, but most significantly is how uair is much more viable and consistent for me, using this input method, (rather than Uair w/ C stick and fastfall w/ control stick)

*Edit*

According to 1.1.4 combos, (Marth's buff patch)
I had posted a comment where I had this combo in training mode, Marth vs Marth

"Weak hit falling fair to tipper ftilt at 16-56%"

Today, while trying the C stick fastfall method, I was able to extend that to 64%.
I'm not done labbing this combo and others yet, and will post the conclusive true combo percents when I do.


More to come soon. I'm working a lot lately, so I have limited time to write, but I'll be working on this the next few days/weeks

 

[Vipermoon]

Apparently with Tilt Stick you only have to hold down A. I haven't tried it though.

 

[DariusM27]

Using this input method I was able to get falling Fair to true combo into fsmash around 50-60%ish
Marth v marth training mode.

Granted, this is in no way a practical or easy combo to achieve, but it's good to know that it's technically possible.

And I know I already referred to this, but this input method is especially useful for getting fastfalls at the earliest possible frame after the air attacks.
Because C stick has a directional input with the attack, the fastfall is necessarily buffered until after the cstick is released.
Air attacks with A allows you to bypass that, and also trains you to see how Marth's aerials can be more optimized.

More to come as I have time.

 

[DariusM27]

Here's a highlight vid of the KOs I've gotten lately using this setup. Quality isn't the best but the vids are also uploaded on my channel.

Fyi, I'm doing fastfall, nair1, fastfall with cstick, fsmash


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC3J6JJaVgo

 

[ElementUser]

Does inputting a second fastfall with C-stick actually make you fastfall more? I'm just confused why you fastfall twice (and whether that actually works, and why A+B Smash is required for this), and how you can physically fastfall twice because I didn't even know that's a thing.

 

[DariusM27]

Does inputting a second fastfall with C-stick actually make you fastfall more? I'm just confused why you fastfall twice (and whether that actually works, and why A+B Smash is required for this), and how you can physically fastfall twice because I didn't even know that's a thing.

Whenever you input an aerial, it cancels your fastfall and you go back to normal fall speed.

For instance, doing

-Full hop fair
-Fastfall
-Fair

will always be slower than

-Full hop fair
-Fastfall
-Fair
-Fastfall

Because the second fair cancels the fastfall speed, and the only way to regain the speed is to input another fastfall.

In order to input fastfalls with Cstick, you have to have Smash Cstick instead of Tilt Cstick.

Fastfalling with Cstick seems to be more precise, especially with nair1.

If you did this 10 times in a row

-Full hop
-Left stick fastfall
-Nair1
-Left stick fastfall

I'm willing to bet that you would not be able to input the 2nd fastfall effectively or you may inconsistently have input a Dair by mistake. Not saying that you couldn't do it eventually, but in my experience, it is not as consistent or effective.

For some reason, this input set up is more reliable and precise

-Full hop
-Left stick fastfall
-Nair1 (Hold A)
-Cstick fastfall

I think it has something to do with how the system interprets the inputs from the sticks differently.

I'm not saying you can't do a double fastfall nair consistently without this setup, so lab it out and see how it works for you. Many Marth users can't see themselves using Smash Cstick, but for those who do use it, this is worth learning.

Another thing with is this makes Short hop Nair1 more effective, again, because the Cstick fastfall optimizes the fastfall input, so it's input at the earliest possible moment.

I compare it to Ryo's Roy vs Abidango's Mewtwo. Ryo had more Nair1 setups than any other Roy and other Roy mains didn't know why his Nair1 lands more frequently than theirs. It's because he uses Cstick to input the nair and inputs the fastfall at the earliest possible frame, which makes a big difference in whether or not the move will land.

I'm explaining it here, but you'd have to try it to see it's benefit.

The A+B smash just allows you to do perfect pivots with the sticks, like Bidou stuff.

 

[Zarxrax]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I'm completely not understanding any of this. Why do you set A+B smash on? How does that help with perfect pivots?
And how does using the c stick to fast fall work any better than using the normal stick to fast fall?

 

[DariusM27]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I'm completely not understanding any of this. Why do you set A+B smash on? How does that help with perfect pivots?

It's just a different way to perfect pivot. Do a tilt attack by pressing and holding A and then hold B before the attack ends.

And how does using the c stick to fast fall work any better than using the normal stick to fast fall?

Try it and see. I've tried explaining but if you are curious about it, try it out. I could try and make a video about it, but it would still be difficult to see unless you try it yourself.

 

[Sir Lancelot]

And I know I already referred to this, but this input method is especially useful for getting fastfalls at the earliest possible frame after the air attacks.
Because C stick has a directional input with the attack, the fastfall is necessarily buffered until after the cstick is released.
Air attacks with A allows you to bypass that, and also trains you to see how Marth's aerials can be more optimized.

https://youtu.be/lf9nfD2rgtM?t=421
Izaw mentions a way to optimize FF nair 1 that works for A-stick users like me; fast falling first, then using the A-stick's diagonal to input nair. This both carries the fast fall throughout the nair as well as automatically frame cancels nair for Roy, possibly also for Marth. Funny he mentioned it after this discussion.

 

[DariusM27]

Definitely should be a major part of Marth's game.

Like here, he spot dodged, and that meant game over for him.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fjptcLz6XJw

Once the Marth meta finally catches on to this, we may actually deserve 13th or so on the tier list. No one is using Marth to his max, not even Mk Leo.

 

[ElementUser]

I was watching Ryo play Roy in a tournament a few months ago, and he definitely used the FF-Nair1 trick (the commentators were talking about it too, but didn't know precisely how it was executed).