Camping; And a Response to Dragz

[Dark Sonic]

First of all, how is hitting your opponent once or twice and running away not camping?

At what point did I mention running away.Was it when I was talking about when hyrule temple got banned. That is a problem with the stage design, and the same thing would've happened if that stage were placed in any other fighter. We banned it because camping was litterally an unbeatable strategy. This example doesn't apply to the metagame of melee at all, because this stage is not included in the metagame in the first place.

Second, I think we're using different definitions of camping. When I say camping, I mean the tool by which you pressure an opponent from out of their reach in order to reduce their options, then punish when they make a mistake.

And I'm completely aware of this. I'm completely aware that Marth can fair camp, or that Falco can laser camp from just a few character lengths away. I'm saying that Falco mainly used his lasers to approach, not to camp. Haven't you seen Falco's flying at you with SHL only to shine and start pillaring as soon as they get in range?

This can involve staying on the other end of the field spamming projectiles, which there is ample evidence of Melee pros doing

And yet it's done much more so in brawl, and much more effectively, because the game engine promotes it.

I think you're talking about the use of this tool as a strategy in and of itself.

That's not what I'm talking about. You specifically mentioned Fox and Falco as campy characters, when they are at the same time percieved as two of the most agressive characters in the game. Isn't that a contradiction? They often stay well within your range, you just can't hit them because at the time you are stuck in stun. I've rarely encountered campy Foxes or Falcos, and I live in Florida, where those two characters are everywhere!

But ultimately, you're ignoring the point, which is that people will find a way through it.

People may find a way through it. Perhaps short hopping while airdodging will become effective. Perhaps powershielding will eventually discourage camping (I doubt it because powershielding doesn't actually harm the camper in any way).

Not every character will have a way through Pit's arrows, but some do. This game has a much more prominent rock paper scissors aspect to it, and there will be characters that can get through projectiles, like Luigi and Marth.

And there will be some characters that can't like Gannondorf and Ike.

I was argueing against your statement that melee was as campy than brawl, which is just not true.

 

[Deleted member]

FluxCapacitator, I know how you feel, I've had to switch from my favourite character (Marth), in order to counter this! I'm now trying to main Pit.

I'm get ***** by Falco on Final, he'd stay in the corner spamming blasters at me and rack up a few percent run in hit me away, and repeat.

I chose pit due to good recovery, reflectors, and projectiles.

Just so u know, marth can get through camping =/ Lrn2getpastcamping =P Also, i think that eventually, people will learn to get past camping effectively, through maybe ATs, or just greater knowledge of the game.

 

[arnquist]

THIS is camping... youtube.com/watch?v=68tQ3qNQuRU&NR=1
HADOOOKEN!!!! TIGERRRR!!! HADOOOKEN!!!! TIGERRR!!!
lol....

 

[rabbitgod]

I think that problem is that camping is so easy to do now. Sure if you are good enough you can probably evade a campers attacks and beat them. But why should you have to try so hard to play against someone who actually is not that good? I find it the most annoying thing playing against a camping Pit, but if I am him, it is really easy to just dominate using that tactic. I barely play Pit at all, it is just really easy to camp with him and a few other characters. It just kind of feels cheap to me.

 

[Mattnumbers]

There are ways around camping

1. Do not pick FD; camping is not as effective on stages that have elevated areas that are safe from uncontrollable projectiles. FD is also fairly big. Battlefield really should be the new standard stage.
2. Turn on certain items; since you can turn off crates/capsules in brawl certain items can now be turned on. certain ones of these can help against campers. For this reason I think that the franklin badge should be allowed in the future.
3. Pick a good anti-camping character; Lucas and MGW are awesome against campers besides TL and all three space animal's reflectors are good against all non-explosive projectiles

I can debate any of these steps further if people want to flame me, just don't do it here, PM me.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Pick scrolling stages as counter picks.

 

[ph00tbag]

Sonic Wave, turning three paragraphs into a wall o' text is no way to form an argument. I haven't even read your reply, and if you can't formulate it into something cogent and legible, I won't bother continuing this discussion.

 

[chaos 9]

i find that camping is a legit and fine stratagy. like stalling in pokemon. it does make it boring but it is beatable and it is not banable. The best way to counter a camper is to either a) overwhelm them or b) camp better. (or use zelda as she is the camper slayer.)

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic Wave, turning three paragraphs into a wall o' text is no way to form an argument. I haven't even read your reply, and if you can't formulate it into something cogent and legible, I won't bother continuing this discussion.

Okay, how's this?

You originally said that melee promoted camping and then asked how brawl is any different, but I don't agree with your statement that melee promoted camping.

I also would like to note that camping is currently the best strategy because defense is overpowerred in brawl. Defense is showing more and more potential while offense is being left in the dust, and I don't think that's a good thing for a competative game.

And that was hardly a wall of text, but I see your point.

 

[Dark Sonic]

grr. double post.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Sonic Wave, turning three paragraphs into a wall o' text is no way to form an argument. I haven't even read your reply, and if you can't formulate it into something cogent and legible, I won't bother continuing this discussion.

What a bull**** statement. I'll be surprised if you actually respond to Sonic Wave.



He took your post apart and responded to each thing with which he disagreed. He even separated them as to not confuse multiple topics or confuse points, since he was often refuting a single point.

Also, his post isn't that long. It wasn't repetitive or off topic. He made his points concisely. If you thought that his 17 lines of text were a "wall o' text," why did you even bother reading the initial post, which is significantly longer than Sonic Waves?

 

[ph00tbag]

What a bull**** statement. I'll be surprised if you actually respond to Sonic Wave.

He took your post apart and responded to each thing with which he disagreed. He even separated them as to not confuse multiple topics or confuse points, since he was often refuting a single point.

Also, his post isn't that long. It wasn't repetitive or off topic. He made his points concisely. If you thought that his 17 lines of text were a "wall o' text," why did you even bother reading the initial post, which is significantly longer than Sonic Waves?

He nitpicked about every statement instead of formulating an opinion. I don't need to read the reply to see that. He doesn't know why he disagrees with me, and I'll never be able to figure out why either from what he's said. I tried in the last post, and obviously failed, because even in trying to do so, I'm still wrong in finding out where our opinions differ, since as I see it he seems to have analyzed every minute detail of my argument on their own and found fault with all of them, on their own.

I dunno, maybe he wasn't paying attention to my point. I don't care, because I don't want to read such a confusing post. At least the OP formulated his opinion into a well-thought-out, coherent thought that flowed throughout.

Edit:

Okay, how's this?

You originally said that melee promoted camping and then asked how brawl is any different, but I don't agree with your statement that melee promoted camping.

I also would like to note that camping is currently the best strategy because defense is overpowerred in brawl. Defense is showing more and more potential while offense is being left in the dust, and I don't think that's a good thing for a competative game.

And that was hardly a wall of text, but I see your point.

Whoooops! I should have checked back a page. My apologies.

I see what you're saying, and I suppose that a more accurate way to word my opinion is to say that camping can afford a higher level of success in Melee. Keep in mind that camping dominated competitive play in Melee for a year or two in the game's infancy, and it can still make matches significantly harder for the campee to this day.

For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xDR-ELKhIo

If you watched Rd1, you know that HugS is obviously the better player. However, when the combatants moved on to Battlefield, Light was able to camp so effectively that HugS was only able to win by countercamping his way a 24% lead and stalling. If Light had combined his play with an effective plan B, he probably could have won that match, if not the set.

So IMO Melee didn't solely exclude camping from consideration. The metagame evolved past it, but in so doing held onto it for future reference. Similarly, Brawl has issues with camping now, with that no one can disagree. However, I think that in the future camping will be less effective, so the best thing to do is stop complaining and make that happen sooner rather than later.

 

[Overswarm]

He nitpicked about every statement instead of formulating an opinion. I don't need to read the reply to see that. He doesn't know why he disagrees with me, and I'll never be able to figure out why either from what he's said. I tried in the last post, and obviously failed, because even in trying to do so, I'm still wrong in finding out where our opinions differ, since as I see it he seems to have analyzed every minute detail of my argument on their own and found fault with all of them, on their own.

I dunno, maybe he wasn't paying attention to my point. I don't care, because I don't want to read such a confusing post. At least the OP formulated his opinion into a well-thought-out, coherent thought that flowed throughout.

You just ended a sentence with a preposition.

*shakes fist*

 

[ph00tbag]

You just ended a sentence with a preposition.

*shakes fist*

I believe in cogent argumentation, not a prescriptivist grammar.

 

[Overswarm]

I believe in cogent argumentation, not a prescriptivist grammar.

Using polysyllabic descriptors to accent your affluency in conversational tendencies doesn't make you sound smart.

It just kinda makes you seem like a tool. >_>


Regardless, it's okay to end a sentence with a preposition as of the late 1990's as far as American English is concerned. I just couldn't resist. ^_^

 

[ph00tbag]

Using polysyllabic descriptors to accent your affluency in conversational tendencies doesn't make you sound smart.

It just kinda makes you seem like a tool. >_>


Regardless, it's okay to end a sentence with a preposition as of the late 1990's as far as American English is concerned. I just couldn't resist. ^_^

At least you know it's okay to end a sentence with a preposition. And it's been okay for longer than that, IMO. People just acted like it wasn't. The thing that pisses me off is that people don't know when to use the past participle anymore. You'd think that's something people would keep track of. -.-;;[/wildly OT]

 

[distr0ia]

...anyway,

1. Do not pick FD; camping is not as effective on stages that have elevated areas that are safe from uncontrollable projectiles. FD is also fairly big. Battlefield really should be the new standard stage.
2. Turn on certain items; since you can turn off crates/capsules in brawl certain items can now be turned on. certain ones of these can help against campers. For this reason I think that the franklin badge should be allowed in the future.

nailed it. paper fans and Mr. Saturns are desparately needed and Battlefield is the new hotspot

people complaining about the ridiculous camping are well within their rights. I agree; it sucks




...but when you constantly pick an unbalancing stage that favors projectile spam like Final Destination, you're asking for it

 

[Koga]

Camping is only a threshold right now; its not even an overpowered strategy. In order to be a top player your skill and character must have an answer for Camping, much like shieks Dthrow chain in melee.

Mario
pit
Spacies
zelda
Mother kids
meta Knight
Wario sorta (Bike)
Rob
eh, that's all i can think of

all those characters laugh at camping,

Camping is just something you must deal with to win. That's not a bad thing, it doesn't make the game more defensive to the point that there's no competition, in fact, without the additional buffs to defense; Camping would be even more difficult to deal with.

Brawl's fine. Play a character that beats camping. Camping is the new L-cancel. its the threshold that must be crossed to play well. No Biggie

 

[ellelaby]

Well its not a problem to me. I main Falco so I'm pretty much the second best camper, on top of that the best camper Pit, can't beat me in a game of camping as Falco's shine reflects all his arrows back perfectly. I'll camp my blaster, but as soon as my opponent converses with me in fist to fist battle I'll fight, I only use the blaster to rack up extra damage. If someone wants to camp against me, I'll find a way to chain-grab them. So I'm left with unlimited options. Blasters, chain grabs, multiple ground and aerial AAAs that noone can compete with except in a very cases. I'm not too fussed about the campers. I mean, Marth is sweeping and awesome, I know Ike has trouble, but then when Marth and Ike do connect with a camper like Pit or Snake they are unstoppable so for that advantage I guess sword characters without projecticles need to learn how to fight campers.

 

[Conda]

Mother kids for high tier, then.


Let's not forget Ness, everyone.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

For those who think Melee isn't campy: http://youtube.com/watch?v=E7mV-ot0Nw4

Hey look, a 1 stock Melee match (part of a crew battle) that lasts about as long as most 3 stock Brawl matches I've had...

 

[Corigames]

...anyway,

nailed it. paper fans and Mr. Saturns are desparately needed and Battlefield is the new hotspot

people complaining about the ridiculous camping are well within their rights. I agree; it sucks

...but when you constantly pick an unbalancing stage that favors projectile spam like Final Destination, you're asking for it

I think I almost threw up after reading this. No wait...

 

[thesage]

For those who think Melee isn't campy: http://youtube.com/watch?v=E7mV-ot0Nw4

Hey look, a 1 stock Melee match (part of a crew battle) that lasts about as long as most 3 stock Brawl matches I've had...

Peach vs. Jiggs is a notorious matchup for being campy and ghey. Not a good example. People hate playing that matchup.

Edit: camping Was in melee and it was hella effective. I camped all the time with Ness on Jungle Japes (I beat eggm's fox thar).