Oracle
Smash Master
It's not a pointless barrier, it makes the game more competitive.
If the timing is awkward, learn how. It's not that hard.
And this is why no one respects brawl.
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Can Brawl+ Succeed?
- Thread starter Oracle
- Start date
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If the timing is awkward, learn how. It's not that hard.
I don't think it's the stages that are responsible for auto-sweet spotting.
I think it has to do with during what part of a characters recovery move can you grab the ledge.
Because If I up-B with Marth right before the edge, I'll go over it. If I up-B from the same distance away, but lower, I'll snap to it. Both were in the SS range during the up-B, but only the one started further down sweet spotted.
No, it really is a pointless barrier.
You need to learn how to do it, and there is no upside to not doing it.
Whenever you can L-cancel, you do it.
Perfect blocking in GGXX pushes the enemy away from you, so it is better than regular blocking, however, you also slowly lose Tension by Perfect blocking, so there is a downside.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
1 w1nged @ngel. Answer this. How does a simple button press make the game more competitive then having the result automatically? You don't play the game thinking "what if I miss an L-cancel" once you get used to it. You just do it. Their is NO benefit to not doing it. It only seperates those who now to do it from those who don't. It doesn't seperate experienced players from each other.
The only way for Manual L-canceling to be better then Auto-L is if their was a downside to L-canceling. And their is none.
The only way for Manual L-canceling to be better then Auto-L is if their was a downside to L-canceling. And their is none.
Skler
Smash Master
No. This has been argued a thousand times and Brawl is always shown to be more about reaction times because you have the time to react. Brawl is slower, so it's easy to react to somebody making a move. There isn't as much thinking because you don't have as many options as you do in Melee.
Those must have been terrible Falco players if they did that a lot, and if they only did it a few times they probably just missed the short hop. Either way your argument sucks. Good players don't **** up like that often.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Almost every character has a tech chase game in Melee, Captain Falcon is huge on tech chasing. Sheik tech chases on platforms all the time, Marth tech chases tippers, etc. Wtf @ trying to tech chase without WDing and dash dancing? In Melee you have those so you use them. It's still possible without them and with no guessing at all. Link just stands near them and then grabs, Falco does a SHL and grabs, plenty of characters are still capable of tech chasing. I'm not sure if you were talking about Melee or not (the paragraph is rather unclear, the only hint it gives to being about Brawl is your choice of characters that can tech chase), but I really hope you weren't.
If you're talking about Brawl+ then doesn't that game have WDing? I remember seeing a WD code a while ago. More importantly, you can DD in Brawl for the purpose it is used in tech chasing. You know they have to tech so you DD and then shoot off in the direction they tech. Techs in Brawl are tiny and slow, it is extremely easy to tech chase if somebody techs near you. You might be able to just walk up and grab instead of having to dash at all.
What are you trying to prove by saying tech chasing is harder without dash dancing and WDing? Somebody said tech chasing in Brawl+ would be way too easy with them because techs in Brawl are slow and tiny, which is true.
Oracle
Smash Master
Well, first of all, they're exactly the same except that l canceling makes the game more technical, so why not leave it in? Making it auto would just be another pointless, dumbed down feature.
Second, brawl needs something to make it more difficult. It's a party game that a two year old can become good at with a day and a half of practice.
Waka_Waka_do_do_yea
Smash Journeyman
Reminder
12345
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Being technical for the sake of being technical is NOT what Brawl+ is about. It's about adding options to make a deeper game. And again, the simple button press from L-cancel is not a good example of technical skill. It only seperates those who can from those who can't (usually new guys).
Brawl needs depth to its gameplay, NOT mechanics that are better off automatic.
Oracle
Smash Master
How are they better off automatic? It's just a little bit harder.
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
Wow, I can't believe you guys are debating this in a third topic on the Melee boards. Did not see that one coming.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
If it's 100% the best thing to do everytime, why bother having it manually if you don't have to? The technical barrier between those who know about L-cancel and those who don't (or know little) is a pointless one.
I don't even get what was Sakurai's original intent with "Smooth Landing" back in Smash 64.. All landing lag should naturally be halved.
Oracle
Smash Master
The only difference is that it makes the game more technical. The difference at top level play is negligable, but it still adds a small level of difficulty to the game that makes it better.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
We could make it so you should do a 360 turn then press Z to grab. That makes the game more technical, but does it make it REALLY make the game better?
Exia 00
Smash Champion
I don't think so.... Why play a fake when you can play the real deal. Brawl is its own game lol. If you want wavedash, combos, L-cancel etc. THEN PUT IN MELEE!
This is my opinion so bite me
This is my opinion so bite me
Skler
Smash Master
It adds to the skill gap a bit. Hitting L before landing is very easy. As an example, if you've played Gears of War there is such a thing as an active reload, it requires pressing the reload button at the right time to reload faster and causes your shots to do extra damage for a short time. If you mess up the active reload you jam your gun and pretty much get laughed at (the jam basically makes you take the normal reload time to reload). Why not make every reload an active? Because it takes some skill to hit that button at the right time even though it's pretty **** easy. It helps separate bad from good even though it isn't hard to do. It's a purely technical barrier, but is easily overcome by anyone who wants to be good, just like L canceling.
Your idea of spinning the stick first kind of sucks because you wouldn't just do a slower grab if you hit Z, you would be entirely unable to grab. The L-cancel is not like doing a super in a normal fighter, it's a VERY simple thing that anyone can do after about 10 minutes of practice. It does help define what makes a good player and what makes a bad player though, so it should stay in.
Do you think the auto sweetspot should be removed? Sweetspoting is a technical barrier! I shouldn't have to learn how to reach the edge at the perfect height because that isn't easy!
Shines should automatically JC because JCing them is hard!
Powershielding is hard! Whenever I shield a move it should be a powershield because powershielding is obviously what I wanted to do.
Where would you draw the line?
Oracle
Smash Master
metazero: So basically, what you're saying is.....you're lazy?
Oracle
Smash Master
*high fives*
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Get it through your thick skulls people. MELEE DOESN'T HAVE BRAWL'S NEWCOMERS (and in my case, it doesn't have a non-****ty Kirby)! AND WE CAN DO WHATEVER WE PLEASE! STOP SAYING "Just play Melee". WE CAN PLAY BOTH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!I don't think so.... Why play a fake when you can play the real deal. Brawl is its own game lol. If you want wavedash, combos, L-cancel etc. THEN PUT IN MELEE!
This is my opinion so bite me
The problem with that GoW comparison is that their is a reason NOT to active reload. Mess it up and you get a jammed gun, so their is still a reason to reload normally (it's safer). Manual L-cancel however is always the 100% best thing to do. Their is NEVER a reason to not L-cancel.
Again, L-cancel DOES NOT seperate good players from bad ones. It seperates those who can from those who can't (usually newbies). That's a pointless barrier right there.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
And you just want the traditional code because you like to press a button for the sake of pressing a button?
Oracle
Smash Master
To add technicality, actually.
And therefore difficulty, making the game more enjoyable to play for more than 30 seconds.
And therefore difficulty, making the game more enjoyable to play for more than 30 seconds.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Making L-cancel automatic would drastically reduce your ability to enjoy Brawl+ (Even though auto or manual, all that matters is the options gained from the reduced lag).......I'm speechless.
That's such a meager thing to hate a game over.
That's such a meager thing to hate a game over.
soap
Smash Hero
i always viewed the difference in lcancel timing as opportunities for u to trick your opponent into missing them and giving u openings, i.e. they expect to hit a shield, and u sidestep, they press it too late. light shield, angle your shield up. Ice climbers have 2 different shields that can be independent of each other.
what im saying is lcancels can be induced to being missed on good players through trickery, making it automatic makes it well....automatic
what im saying is lcancels can be induced to being missed on good players through trickery, making it automatic makes it well....automatic
CandyAppleBlueCherry
Smash Cadet
The fact that there *IS* a Brawl+ should tell you something about the game XD
Oracle
Smash Master
I wouldn't hate it....but it makes one feel more accomplished when you actually have to press a button to get the result.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
You don't play Melee thinking "what if they get a phantom hit", you don't play Brawl thinking "what if they trip at this crucial moment", and (while not quite the same) you don't play Melee thinking "what if they miss their L-cancel timing". You assume they will L-cancel all their aerials. Waiting for a missed L-cancel or trying to induce one doesn't work against those who have been doing it for enough time.
I thought it was already established that those who are working on Brawl+ aren't fond of regular Brawl.
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
He meant, "should tell you something about Brawl."
metaXzero
Smash Champion
It's another "lolol. They hack Barlw cuz Barwl sux" post.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Have you ever seen the AZOTS Teams Grand Finals between Timmy/Mark and DSF/Ajax?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17imZwI7hZA
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
metaXzero, the extra damage you get from an Active Reload in GoW can mean the difference for a win or a loss in a match.
Plus, your reasoning just sounds dumb. There would be less diversity among players if L-Cancelling was automatically done (which doesn't even make sense since it wouldn't exist then). Wasn't the point of Brawl+ to make the game more diverse because Brawl is one of the worst fighters ever in terms of balance? It doesn't take time to learn to L-Cancel. It's so easy.
Plus, your reasoning just sounds dumb. There would be less diversity among players if L-Cancelling was automatically done (which doesn't even make sense since it wouldn't exist then). Wasn't the point of Brawl+ to make the game more diverse because Brawl is one of the worst fighters ever in terms of balance? It doesn't take time to learn to L-Cancel. It's so easy.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
I'll just assume some1 trips at a crucial moment here. The point is you don't play banking your chance of winning on that happening.
The point is that despite this, you have a safer option to it (in case you can't consistently active reload or something), which means you can't compare it to L-canceling (you also can't use SF3 parrying, SC series Guard Impacting, or Roman Canceling(?) in GG series either). When comparing a mechanic to L-cancel, it has to be the 100% best thing to do in all situations with no safer option.metaXzero, the extra damage you get from an Active Reload in GoW can mean the difference for a win or a loss in a match.
Plus, your reasoning just sounds dumb. There would be less diversity among players if L-Cancelling was automatically done (which doesn't even make sense since it wouldn't exist then). Wasn't the point of Brawl+ to make the game more diverse because Brawl is one of the worst fighters ever in terms of balance? It doesn't take time to learn to L-Cancel. It's so easy.
AGAIN, L-cancel only seperates those experienced with it from those new to it. It doesn't seperate good players from better ones since both cases will know to L-cancel every aerial. You don't look at M2K or Azen and say "their L-cancels are too good".
Purpose of Brawl+ is to add depth to the shallow game of Brawl. Manual L-canceling adds little-to-no depth. The options that come from the reduced lag (auto or manual) is what adds depth. But we also want Brawl+ to be inviting. And having it technical for the sake of being technical (what Manual L-cancel is) isn't as inviting as simply having all lag halved by default.
ZeroFrames
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2008
- Messages
- 30
Look...
Its not so that you ALWAYS catch the button
yes, i play Melee for 3 Years competive and often I didnt catch the R-Button for L-Cancling. But this is normaly.
If you play Tetris very proffessional, you will also sometimes fail in level 1. ^^
UNLESS you play very very concentrated.
And if you lose a Match because of you Fail ONLY ONE L-Cancle (you fail it when you Drill [DownB of Fox] CaptainF. He grabs you and combo you to the out) then it was YOUR FAULT!
L-canceling would be better if there was a punishment for a missed L-cancel or if there was a downside to a completed L-cancel like you lose a chunk of your shield. Although, the first option is probably the better one.
Also getting hit by your opponent because you missed an L-cancel is not the same thing as being punished for missing it. That's like not trying the fast reload, just doing the normal reload, and dying in the middle of it because you wanted to go with the safe option, instead of the risky one.
In Melee, there is no safe/risky option. L-cancel is 100% safe with no risk.
There should be a defined safe option and a defined risky option (Although GoW's reload is borderline because it is so easy) other wise it would be best to do without options at all (Although, reducing options is a bad thing)
Also getting hit by your opponent because you missed an L-cancel is not the same thing as being punished for missing it. That's like not trying the fast reload, just doing the normal reload, and dying in the middle of it because you wanted to go with the safe option, instead of the risky one.
In Melee, there is no safe/risky option. L-cancel is 100% safe with no risk.
There should be a defined safe option and a defined risky option (Although GoW's reload is borderline because it is so easy) other wise it would be best to do without options at all (Although, reducing options is a bad thing)
Skler
Smash Master
Negative, everyone will always go for the active reload. Ask any competitive/good Gears player and they will tell you they always go for the active. Regular reload for anything but the pistol (which is also always active reloaded) gives the enemy enough time to regenerate/run away to regenerate, so you might as well jam or get an active.
Active reloading is always the 100% best thing to do, there is never a reason not to active reload.
WTF @ not separating good from bad. What DOES separate good from bad? If somebody can do infinite drillshines and does that to me 4 stocks in a row are they better than me or did it just tell you that they can infinite and I can't? If I die every stock because I can't sweetspot and I can never edgeguard the other person because they sweetspot every time does that mean they're better or do they just know how to sweetspot and I can't?
Did you know there are ways to get people to mess up their l-cancels? It takes skill to l-cancel even when your opponent throws off your timing by spot dodging when you should be hitting their shield.
Imagine how easy it would be to pillar shields with Fox if all you had to do was SHFF drills into JC shines. Anybody who took 5 minutes could learn how to do it perfectly and the best part is no matter what your opponent did those drills would be unpunishable (this is unless the opponent is Samus or Bowser). Now think about doing the same thing with L-cancels. It gets a lot harder because of that one input and the fact you can mess it up. A simple spot dodge can make you miss the l-cancel and get grabbed.
MuBa
Smash Lord
Really I think the best way to make both parties (Auto-cancel and L-Cancel) happy is to really use both codes together =/
Essentially what happens is then your original aerial lag from regular Brawl is now HALF and with pressing the L/R button (The timing is a little on the thin side) gives you HALF the lag of an autocanceled aerial.
Essentially what happens is then your original aerial lag from regular Brawl is now HALF and with pressing the L/R button (The timing is a little on the thin side) gives you HALF the lag of an autocanceled aerial.
soap
Smash Hero
this is what i basically said before, then he started going off about u dont go around expecting phantom hits, which is a much rarer occurence, but ive even seen people with very good smash DI inducing phantom hits to break marth combos.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Again, the point is that with GoW, you have a safer option then Active Reload. Of course if you can consistently AR, you should. But if you can't, their is the safer option of normal reloading (I'm assuming jamming is equilavent to missing a parry in SF3 and taking the full blow).
.....-_- You are seriously asking what makes players better then others?
Utilizing your given options better then your opponent is what seperates players by skill. Using (and reading) DI, wavedash, the reduced lag from L-cancel, and other stuff in combination of mindgames were what seperated players in Melee in a good way. L-cancel only seperated those who could from those who can't (for whatever reason).
Are you seriously saying that a relevent part of Melee's meta-game was trying to get your opponent to miss L-cancels? Are you ****ing serious?
Question guys. If Brawl had the SAME gameplay as Melee with the only difference being that all lag was halved by default, would you have been mad?
jugfingers
Smash Champion
MetaXzero and anyone else in this thread advocating auto l-cancelling
there is varying degrees of l-cancelling, its not just a monotonous process.
l-cancelling is vastly different with each character and with each individual move,
and l cancelling moves in rapid succession, in multiple ways cumulatively adds to the difficulty of performing this successfully especially with speed and precision.
for example shffling an aerial down onto a platform and then dropping through the platform and l cancelling another aerial on the ground dashing and then continuing with another aerial possibly doublejumped fastfalled, etc etc, is alot harder than just shffling a single move into a grab or something and the timing is alot different as well.
l cancelling isn't just another button press it adds an entire rhythm to aerialattack based movements. auto l-cancelling would eliminate the need for timing and rhythm
although I couldn't care less if auto l-cancelling was put in brawl because im not going to play it, but the notion of auto l cancelling is appalling, and you should be ashamed for defending it. because basically your suggesting that timing and rhythm are not important
EDIT
as to you question, I wouldn't be mad because I play melee. but if melee had all lag reduced automatically I would probably stop playing it because of what I said before about timing and rhythim etc.
there is varying degrees of l-cancelling, its not just a monotonous process.
l-cancelling is vastly different with each character and with each individual move,
and l cancelling moves in rapid succession, in multiple ways cumulatively adds to the difficulty of performing this successfully especially with speed and precision.
for example shffling an aerial down onto a platform and then dropping through the platform and l cancelling another aerial on the ground dashing and then continuing with another aerial possibly doublejumped fastfalled, etc etc, is alot harder than just shffling a single move into a grab or something and the timing is alot different as well.
l cancelling isn't just another button press it adds an entire rhythm to aerialattack based movements. auto l-cancelling would eliminate the need for timing and rhythm
although I couldn't care less if auto l-cancelling was put in brawl because im not going to play it, but the notion of auto l cancelling is appalling, and you should be ashamed for defending it. because basically your suggesting that timing and rhythm are not important
EDIT
as to you question, I wouldn't be mad because I play melee. but if melee had all lag reduced automatically I would probably stop playing it because of what I said before about timing and rhythim etc.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Doesn't matter about the difficulty. It only seperates those new to it from those accustomed to it. Mid-to-High level players won't be bothered by "what if I/they miss an L-cancel" because they won't miss them enough for it to really matter in the long run.
Manual L-cancel=Reduced lag from pressing a button. Increases options due to reduced lag.
Auto-L-cancel=Automatically reduced lag. Increases options due to reduced lag.
Manual L-cancel is just being technical for the sake of being technical.
And you would quit Melee if you didn't have to pointlessly press a button? That's...........sad. The gameplay is still Melee.
EDIT: I made another thread to steer lag-canceling discussion over there.
Yeah, I definitely think that while manual l-cancelling is good, automatic l-cancelling isn't something worth quitting over.
It would probably piss me off a bit if I ever played with scrubby friends, just because it would be annoying to see their lag reduced without them doing anything. While playing better people, though, I probably wouldn't notice that much of a difference, and I'd be slightly more alright with it.
It would probably piss me off a bit if I ever played with scrubby friends, just because it would be annoying to see their lag reduced without them doing anything. While playing better people, though, I probably wouldn't notice that much of a difference, and I'd be slightly more alright with it.
ZeroFrames
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2008
- Messages
- 30
Say what you want,
the Mainstream will choose if Brawl+ will have Manual or Auto LC
and there are really really good arguments for Manual!
You hear it over and over again in all Smashboards:
"Brawl is as Technical as brushing teeths"
Do you really believe that any option, which makes the game more Technical will be ignored for a "new" Brawl? ^^
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