Can Falco Still be good if.

[Inaphyt]

You don't use shine?

I can shine perfectly, but i've seen players get hit for trying to shine so many times on videos and such (probably the same with any move) i prefer to use falco's range on his moves than shining, for example sh aerials are followed up with a tilt or a smash or a grab, why bother using shine? If you were to use uptilt instead it does more damage actually has priority etc. If you don't use shine then you still have the option of jumping twice and falco is a great character to be under the opponent. Shine becomes useless after like 60% pretty much.

I use shine to mix up my hanging on the ledge game and to dodge aerials provided i have my second jump or if a player projectiles me from long range i reflect and then fh laser to cover all horizons. Or i'll just use it for the odd combo for laughs.

Anyways i once read that "If you can't shine pick another character" Well i can shine , but i don't doesn't seem to help me. I think falco is amazing without the shine.

 

[TresChikon]

Shine is very fast and is an all-around answer to many things.

Ofc, Falco still has other great things like his dair, jump, and lasers.

I don't think Falco would be nearly as good if you took anything away (save for his fair maybe.)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

shine is really good.

1st frame hitbox
cancelable on the 4th with a jump
cancel the jump into a wavedash to follow up

~15 frames gets you a hitbox with invincibility and movement to better position.

If you get punished for shining, you spaced it bad.

 

[Inaphyt]

You have to be inside the opponent to shine, players know this they will not allow you to enter them. ; P You can approach from underneath with a shine but why didn't you use uair instead that's 22 damage iirc. You can dair into a shine but you can also dair into dtilt or utilt both are more powerful and you recover in no time at all to follow up with more devastation i know all the pro's use shine.

I reckon i'll be the falco that doesn't shine see if it works out lol.

How do you get the falco next to your name? I'm going to start respresenten soon seems only fair.

 

[Charlesz]

Falco kinda needs shine, as sveet stated, the shine allows falco so many more options offensively.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dude you just dont get it... falco isn't about entering their space, its about them entering yours.

You're lasering, you're lasering, you're lasering BAM they roll into you to try to get thru. How do you cover it? Finish your laser then shine and wavedash. Your shine wins any conflict (even if they had already started a move) and then leads into combos.

Ok now someone got hit by your nair and has to tech the platform. How do you manage to cover all those options? Shine where they are and wavedash to follow and shine again (if the first didnt hit)

Now you're lasering and lasering and the guy gets hit by a laser and you see your chance to approach. You nair, but he gets his shield up in time. How do you not get grabbed? Shine.

There are tons and tons of reasons to shine. If you suck at spacing with it, its not the move's fault. Its one of the best moves in the game.

 

[Niko45]

It's very good to question the conventional wisdom, and yes, there are spots where moves like dtilt and utilt are better than shining. But honestly, you don't sound like you are at the point where you should be worrying about that. Learn how to dair/nair to shine without getting shield grabbed. Those are the basics of Falco.

You sound like you are a little overwhelmed by the daunting task of learning and implementing advanced techniques which Falco largely benefits from. I think if you have a little patience and play for a while longer you will figure out that shine is absolutely awesome and will make you a way way way better player.

 

[bahamutz69]

honestly every other option falco has is situational.
out of every one of his shffl follow-ups, his shine is the safest and the best pay off

shine fox at 0 and he'll pop up to the ideal height where you can hit him back down
utilt fox at 0 and youll get CC>usmashed or grabbed which every falco hates

not to mention that pretty much every character can get his or her shield up before a utilt/dtilt/usmash (especially) hits. as far as ive seen only fox can get his shield up mid-combo and thats its falco messes up

not to completely **** on your idea to challenge 9 years of falco play, but you can't replace his shine with anything. especially not with his bread and butter approach style.

also not say those options are useless in any form, utilt has its priority, dtilt has its shield poke, usmash.... doesnt have ****... i guess jcing it for range?

and falcos shine is hella sexy, just watch pp or shiz. dayum

kudos for challenging everyone though, and posting a thread about it.
by all means keep doing what your doing dude.

 

[Inaphyt]

honestly every other option falco has is situational.
out of every one of his shffl follow-ups, his shine is the safest and the best pay off

shine fox at 0 and he'll pop up to the ideal height where you can hit him back down
utilt fox at 0 and youll get CC>usmashed or grabbed which every falco hates

not to mention that pretty much every character can get his or her shield up before a utilt/dtilt/usmash (especially) hits. as far as ive seen only fox can get his shield up mid-combo and thats its falco messes up

not to completely **** on your idea to challenge 9 years of falco play, but you can't replace his shine with anything. especially not with his bread and butter approach style.

also not say those options are useless in any form, utilt has its priority, dtilt has its shield poke, usmash.... doesnt have ****... i guess jcing it for range?

and falcos shine is hella sexy, just watch pp or shiz. dayum

kudos for challenging everyone though, and posting a thread about it.
by all means keep doing what your doing dude.

Upsmash can kill off the lower platforms so Dacus.

fox cannot grab you if you get a utilt in, there is about 1/3 of a second before the next utilt.

I don't believe i was challenging anyone, if someone ROLLS into me i have plenty of more powerful options than shine, even Dair shine is better. Hence the confusion. I posted this thread in order to learn.

So what your saying is that if they techroll or roll past me i should waveshine into them instead of like? fsmash or dairing them. at lower percents? because surely you should just go for a power hit if you can get it in.

 

[nyc_tag$]

No.

Just... no.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Upsmash can kill off the lower platforms so Dacus.

fox cannot grab you if you get a utilt in, there is about 1/3 of a second before the next utilt.

I don't believe i was challenging anyone, if someone ROLLS into me i have plenty of more powerful options than shine, even Dair shine is better. Hence the confusion. I posted this thread in order to learn.

So what your saying is that if they techroll or roll past me i should waveshine into them instead of like? fsmash or dairing them. at lower percents? because surely you should just go for a power hit if you can get it in.

lol anyone can grab you if you utilt. Its laggy.

If someone rolls into you when you're using a move, you won't have time to do anything but roll yourself or shine.

save your strong hits for the end of the stock. get combos in early. link combos into strong hits and you'll be pro.

 

[bahamutz69]

sveet pretty much covered it

utilt is safe if you land your aerial behind them and space it so your toe hits their shield, but **** thats the end of your pressure chain
its also safe if you turn it around infront of them and space it the same way, but then you're stuck utilt their shield until they roll, at which point you will have your foot above your head, unable to punish.
in any other situation, a utilt on a shield usually means a shield grab or a shine oos, which is not where you want to be.

fasho, i dont mean to make it sounds like your trying to challenge everyone, your just trying to learn. your opponent will roll away from you more than they will roll into you, but if they do roll into you then you should be shining them. ofcourse this is where percent comes in, if they are low, then you can dair>shine because the dair will keep them on the ground so the shine connects.
if they are at a mid percent, a dair will pop them up, meaning you will have to follow them with another aerial which isnt always bad but it means you will most likely either not be able to him them or be faced with another tech chase. where as a shine will pop them up in a dandy fashion and since you can cancel the shine on its 4th frame, you are free to follow them with whatever you choose (bair, nair, dair, waveland if near a platform) without having to worry about them escaping.
at higher percents a smash is probably what you are looking for because it will either take a stock or lead to an edgeguard which will most likely lead to a stock.

the last part kinda made me chuckle.
if fox rolls into you at a low 10% you can fsmash, but whats the use? its a nice 20% but it puts fox just far enough away from you so he can tech and be back on his speedy little without you being able to punish him.
or you could shine him... which would lead to a dair, to another shine to a dair, you know the cycle. shine leads to platform, meaning you can follow him even past the 55ish% where he can escape you're normal dair>waveshine madness.
infact follow him into one of those nice utilts then fmash that mofo or shinebair him for gloating privileges.
that puts him at a nice 70% off the stage thinking "well ****, i hate that bird"

if no platforms then we all know the nair fsmash

basically a combo is worth more than a smash at low %s, if he techs into you at say 100 then go for a smash, though shine would work ;D

 

[mers]

I think everyone here just got trolled.

 

[bahamutz69]

i hope so, i dont want anyone thinking falco is playable without his shine -___-

 

[battousai555]

i hope so, i dont want anyone thinking falco is playable without his shine -___-

Let's do Falco dittos this weekend and I'll try to beat you without shining ^^

 

[Strong Badam]

falco would still be good
worse, but good

 

[bahamutz69]

deal
every shine you do you have to sd
shield or not

 

[bobert4936]

lol... wtf? falco needs shine bro. shine is 1 frame, thats really good. the combos that string of shine are again really good. shine oos is really good. shine after 60% is really good, u can combo fox at 60% ez using shines and some tech chases. shine to bair is really good. wave shining is really good, shine pressuring such as shine pillar/fairs are really good, if shine wasnt as good as u think it was why would zhu, pepe, shiz even bother using it?

 

[Moooose]

shine is good but its not necessary

 

[KirbyKaze]

shine Is Good But Its Not Necessary

I think at this stage in Smash's development, Shine is very necessary.

 

[Moooose]

I think at this stage in Smash's development, Shine is very necessary.

what i mean is that he is definitely still playable without a shine. 24 of the 26 characters get by without it, i don't see why falco can't do it. people brought up "when the opponent rolls inward"s, but a grab can be used to cover that option. also, dair comboes into grab at lower percents, and into uptilt/dtilt at like 35% +.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I suppose you could get decent with Shineless Falco, but Shineless Falco will probably never amount to anything higher than elimination during 3rd round pools (if even that).

 

[RaynEX]

A 1 frame move with invincibility on that single frame? Why the hell wouldn't you use it?

I understand the want to pull it out sparingly, but taking it out altogether would provide results similar to KirbyKaze's scenario. (If not much, much worse)

 

[Animal]

shine is the best move in the game. certainly not top tier that for sure. depends on what move you replace it with. jiggz rest? lmao

 

[DaemonFang]

dude, not using falco's shine is like, hey, i have a 10 inch ****, but id rather use this 6 inch dildo on her instead

 

[LLDL]

Falco would be bottom tier if not for shine. It IS necessary for him, he wouldn't have any viable offense.

 

[ArcNatural]

I've beaten Game & Watch by ONLY dairing, poor Game & Watch

 

[monkeyx4]

shine=**** u can wave dash into it brings shield pressure and can jcgrab y not use it T_T

 

[RaynEX]

Falco would be bottom tier if not for shine. It IS necessary for him, he wouldn't have any viable offense.

With laser, being offensive is more of a choice than a path of necessity. You never truly have to run in unless you want to. Falco, by default, controls the pace of the match. He has great priority, controls space easily, corners easily, edge-guards easily.

-Laser opponents to make them drop for easy bairs/dairs

-platform camp for high priority dairs from above

-laser camp under a platform to avoid getting FH approached and to protect yourself.

Most of Falco's most blatent strengths come from his other moves first, his shine later. Having one of the best mid-range games, in terms of lockdown and priority, is vital. You don't really need shine for that.

You're grossly underestimating his "real fighting" capabilities. When I say "real fighting", I mean not using an invincible 1 frame move on both offense and defense (oos). Falco is fully capable of destroying characters using a smart, zone-heavy combination of dair, nair, bair, laser and utilt.

The shine is broken as ****, but it is by no means the sole determining factor of his greatness. His laser and pressure with dair both on and off the stage are about equal to the shine in that regard.

 

[Inaphyt]

My point from the beginning wasn't people get punished for using the shine, people get punished for thinking hmm i'll go for the shine and then becomes a one trick birdy.

If you don't worry about the shine and start thinking in terms of range or using more damaging moves than the shine dair repeat thing.

People don't realise what a great battering weapon ftilt and fsmash are lol. Or how quickly dsmash comes out.

 

[LLDL]

I'd like to see a falco win a tournament without the shine.

 

[null55]

shine is accepted as godly.


and it's underrated.

 

[Filthee]

honestly, i cant understand why you dont like using shines. that **** is so ****ing fun to combo with. honestly you are only gimping yourself by not shining, lasers are falco's bread and shines are his butter, it what makes falcos combos so **** mode.

 

[Rayku]

Upsmash can kill off the lower platforms so Dacus.

LOL am I the only one who noticed this?

I think you guys got owned