Can we talk stages? Let's talk stages.

[BatShark]

There is a surprising lack of stage talk here! At least in an organized thread. We should change that, even if it's a relatively short conversation where we mostly agree with each other.

Over here in NorCal we use Paragon stage set for basically everything, so that will be the context here. (BF/FD/SV/T&C/DL as neutrals with 1-2-1 strikes, DH & Lylat as counterpicks.)

Some of my observations and experiences...

• I think T&C and Dreamland are pretty clearly our best neutrals. I am running into more and more players who ensure that those two stages are struck against me, although there are plenty of characters who benefit similarly from the low ceilings of T&C and are happy to let us go there.

• Anecdotally, people used to always ban Battlefield against me and this has almost entirely stopped. I think people would rather just prioritize banning Dreamland in this case, AKA psuedo-Battlefield w/lower ceilings.

• I don't think any of the neutrals are particularly bad for us, but I think there are characters who benefit from Smashville a heck of a lot more than we do. (Sheik for certain, Mario, Rosalina to aid her waits on Luma recovery, generally anyone who can try to camp us out.)

• In matchups where we can bully people and force an approach, I am more than happy to FD or Omega it up. (Falcon, Bowser, Ike, Kirby, sword users like Shulk who also benefit from platforms that they can cover with their disjoint.)

• Lylat is, in my opinion, the only stage that is negative for us. My counterpick ban flowchart 90%of the time goes like this: Do I know they will not pick Lylat and want to camp me on Smashville? Y) Ban Smashville. N) Ban Lylat. Ban Lylat in all other scenarios.

• Banning Lylat is, IMO, particularly urgent against characters who are very comfortable in their recovery on that stage (granted, it's considerably less janky with the patch a while back) and who can cover all of the platforms well. Examples off the top of my head include Yoshi, Villager, the Links, Sheik, Shulk, Bowser, Kirby.

Thoughts?

 

[andrebound]

I usually ban DH and Lylat. Lylat for obvious reasons and DH for preference. The dog and bushes annoy me too much. plus the only benefit we get from it is the small chance we can combo up airs from the tree. I'd rather play on FD/Omegas instead since it's still not a bad stage for ZSS.
People will generally want to ban Dream Land and Battlefield against us so Town & City is usually a good choice.
It all comes down to MU and preference in the end. We can still do well on SV and FD so there aren't any particularly bad stages for us (aside from Lylat at times which you should probably be banning).
It might be worth going FD if you aren't confident in surviving low ceilings against certain characters/players but If you have the option for platforms and/or low ceiling, you should probably go for it.

 

[pichuthedk]

Weird I have been finding an increasing success rate on LyLat as opposed to banning in I am sometimes all for it.

For short chars proper spacial awareness let's me utilize paralyzer pressure sure it sucks because the map changes at the most inconvenient times...

In regards to it tilting and messing up recovery I feel like us of all people have less to worry about that then others because of tether and flip jump, there is also the heat of the moment tarzaning underneath the stage recovery method (depending on the tilts and very precision based!).

Anyways I tend to ban fd and smash vile because to many characters have bs on smash vile like when we discussed sonic and DeLux said the platform was a get out of jail free card for sonic.

As for fd since my neutral isn't amazing just like zss's I've felt having no platforms or as much breathing room hindered things like the comeback factor, there is something alluring about quite literally sweeping victory out from under your opponents feet once they are forced to air dodge onto a platform just to get up air kill confirm.

 

[andrebound]

Sometimes Lylat can be good for us, up airs and bairs seem to be really good on it, but landing nairs, zairs and paralysers are much more difficult and annoy me personally when they just don't work because of the tilt of the stage. You're right about the recovery thing, we don't have to worry about it as much as other characters.
The comeback factor is indeed much more real on BF and DL.
As for SV, are there any other characters it would be a bad pick for aside from sheik and sonic? I don't mind it too much tbh.

 

[pichuthedk]

Ness I don't wanna give away a trade secret of my Boi Nakat but that's a bad day vs a good ness imo...

Who else ? Probably pikachu , metaknight (if they purely focused on getting you to air dodge onto the platform for free up bs or nados) diddy might be good here to if he can setyou up with the platform for an early fsmash kill.

I kinda feel like giving opponents a form of safe recovery instead of getting gimp ed at 45% is not a good trade off.

But sometimes we need that I guess so.

 

[Daisy101]

Yes Lylat can be good for our combo's. yet its not our best stage then it come to play neutral/zoning in my opinion.

 

[pichuthedk]

Yes Lylat can be good for our combo's. yet its not our best stage then it come to play neutral/zoning in my opinion.

I can concur with that , however I still think even though I dislike the stage that it can be our best stage it depends on whether or not we can even study it.

The important parts would be the phases and if they have something to do with all the tilts ( I believe it has to steer during the phase with the dog fights going in).

If we were to fully figure this out then we could know when we can go for the f/b throws -> spikes for early kills or gimps by hitting someone off and forcing them to go low knowing full well the ship will be tilting around then.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Lylat is amazing for us as long as the enemy isn't tiny.