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Captain falcon vs Pokemon trainer: Falcon's advantage - indepth

Wogrim

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Not the most reliable, but it's a great damage racker. It does more damage than Falcon Punch and has is more reliable. You should see a good Charizard utilize it. Rock Smash will give you trouble. It's not a move you throw out, it's more of a punisher, or a defensive option. It would punish Falcon Kick severely. Shielding to Rock-Smash would wreck you.
A) We do the Falcon Punch to kill, not to do damage
B) That's a fault with Falcon Kick. Everyone and their mother can punish it, which means it should be used almost exclusively as a punish move AGAINST ANY CHARACTER (i.e. this isn't some advantage of Charizard's). Even then, hyphen USmash is usually better.

It was mentioned earlier that Charizard is kind of like Bowser but a bit easier, and I have to agree with that.

Also not sure if this was mentioned yet but none of the pokemon have very good recoveries.
 

Jim Morrison

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Hmm... I play TKONTK quite a lot and he still does FK a lot. He tries to not do it, but habits, eh :p. Maybe it's just him with FK though. And I didn't mean as Falcon Punch doing damage, but just showing how serious Rock Smash is. To do more damage than the punch. It doesn't do more knockback AFAIK, though.
 

Wogrim

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Hmm... I play TKONTK quite a lot and he still does FK a lot. He tries to not do it, but habits, eh :p. Maybe it's just him with FK though. And I didn't mean as Falcon Punch doing damage, but just showing how serious Rock Smash is. To do more damage than the punch. It doesn't do more knockback AFAIK, though.
He's probably being overzealous about the ledge cancel combos he found (combo to sweet knee among other stuff, depending on which hitbox he hits you with).
 

Jim Morrison

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Wrong.

Grounded Falcon Kick is the kind of move you should only use maybe once during a match.
Agreed, aerial Falcon Kick is epic. It should be used more.

He's probably being overzealous about the ledge cancel combos he found (combo to sweet knee among other stuff, depending on which hitbox he hits you with).
I think he is :(. Trying too hard to ledge cancel results in me shield grabbing him :bee:
 

Zeallyx

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uhh... falcon kick is the kinda move you only wanna use like ONCE in a match...

if ever.
No, it punishes rolls and it can punish from a distance (but hyphen smash can too).
Also, the first hitbox of the FK sends the opponent fly away horizontally in the opposite direction you are facing (making it impossible/harder to punish)

He's probably being overzealous about the ledge cancel combos he found (combo to sweet knee among other stuff, depending on which hitbox he hits you with).
I know the positioning to LC the FK on most stages, so thats not it. It's just a habit I'm working on. (I only try to us it to punish now, and focus more on falcon's arials and moves that cannot easily be punished) I almost never use it anymore now:)
 

Player-3

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dunno what kinda crazy stuff your talking about i use FK alot :D

and ive never played a good PT so i know nothing...

but yeah, i use punch when im juts screwing around not serious battles.. ivy give me the most trouble do to his Bair Neutral B and side b
its annoying
but the falcon style tipman would be epic.
 

Tenki

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I've only read the first post and from the 3rd page on, but...

1) Why don't you talk about their B-airs???

Ivysaur's B-air is such a spacer/disruptor, and Charizard's B-air can double as a gtfo/kill/damage move.

Yes, I agree rock smash is better/more reliable than the falcon punch. Still, Rock smash is slow, and not the most reliable move charizard has.
whoa whoa.

Are you familiar with Charizard's Rock Smash "counter"?

Basically, if you hit the rock at the right time, it will explode on you and your attack.

Even though it's not a 'perfect' hit, I've done upper 30%'s with this.
 

Zeallyx

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I've only read the first post and from the 3rd page on, but...

1) Why don't you talk about their B-airs???

Ivysaur's B-air is such a spacer/disruptor, and Charizard's B-air can double as a gtfo/kill/damage move.



whoa whoa.

Are you familiar with Charizard's Rock Smash "counter"?

Basically, if you hit the rock at the right time, it will explode on you and your attack.

Even though it's not a 'perfect' hit, I've done upper 30%'s with this.
I forgot about the Bairs.

And that rocksmash counter, yes I know, but sometimes, when you hit charizard, he just drops his rock, without you taking damage (has to do with timing I assume)
 

Ville

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The rock is, in fact, a pretty broken attack ;/

You will have lots of trouble fighting squirtle with way faster attacks, better comboability and priority on his aerials and tilts/jabs.
You will have mayor problems dealing iwht ivy's range in the air and on the ground.
Also leaf**** and Usmash **** you big time.
You will have a very bad time against charizard because he outranges you, kills you early if played right and isn't as easy to gimp.
 

DoB04

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Ok so lets get back to discussing the matchup shall we?
Well Squirtle posing as the main threat is true, but not in Falcon's case. With the chaingrab, racking damage on him is easy as pie...., getting the grab in is also not that hard, grabbing any character at least once a match isn't hard at all, since almost all characters have laggy moves that can be punished, and even if not, getting a grab in is easy with prediction and mindgames..... but thats not really important....
the thing is, a possible infinite has been discovered against Squirtle deriving from this chain grab, and although it's not 100% confirmed, if proved to be true, then we have a winner..... with that said, i conlcude that Falcon has a 60-40 over Squirtle.

Now onto ivy... here is where the main threat lies (imo) at least for Falcon, ill explain why...
Ivy is the only pokemon out of the three with good range, good priority and a nice projectile to top it off....
now for the unfamiliar, those are the only three things keeping falcon from being higher on the tier list. He has the speed, he has the power, he simply has no range, no priority, and no projectile to space himself better... Ivy is a great damage racker, his multihitting moves are proof of this.... for that reason, he has been given less kill moves, few of them being slow and predictable (uair, usmash, dair spike) now this leaves him with only fsmash and up b as fast kill moves... both have moderate ending lag and can be punishable, so landing the kill can be painful for Ivy. with this in mind, Falcon has a main strategy, he has to play his same game. Racking up damage and then landing the final blow.... now with this strategy, comes two advantages.... if ivy gets thrown offstage in the process, its an easy kill, a good Falcon wont miss the chance to edge grab him... and the second is the already stated uair from grab release kill which guarantees a kill once the damage is high enough.... now of course this arent the only ways to kill him, as i said, these are simply ADVANTAGES, and aren't necessarily parts of the strategy.....
in conclusion, i'd say ivy and falcon are pretty even, since they both have advantages over one another, but Ivy has the upper hand so i say it'd be a 55/45 over Falcon.

Now for Charizard, well as already stated, he's basically a neutral.... Falcon does relatively good against big characters and Charizard is not different... except that Charizard is actually pretty fast for a heavy character which gives him the tie... i wouldnt say his recovery is good, but its not that bad either... (a third jump + glide is pretty good...) they both have good grabbing games and slow+strong smashes, and also good tilts... so to conclude my post, Falcon vs Charizard is 50-50
so to summarize this chunk of text, here is the final result:
Falcon vs Squirtle - 60/40
Falcon vs Ivy - 45/55
Falcon vs Charizard - 50-50

Final Result: 55-45 = Falcon has a minor advantage

Now one last thing, i'm not saying my post is a fact, because i don't know everything about all the characters and their fully developed metagames, so i leave you guys to debate my post with no flaming of course, and i ask you to prove/disprove with logic.
 

Tenki

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lol forgot?

How did you test these? Training mode, or against some rounds against a person using PT? (note the words I used lol)

anyway, some stuff about Charizard:

I didn't bother to address all the moves, but this is just some stuff that seemed really weird to me.


Pokemon trainer has 3 pokemon (=three different characters to face), but due to the stamina addition (making switching out almost a nescissety) and the fact that when you KO one pokemon, another comes out, and in order to change back into the pokemon they where, they have to switch pokemon twice (or if they just want the next one in line, they switch once) and when they switch, it will mostly mean a free attack. (Good pokemon trainers will not change pokemon close to you, but with falcon's CG on swuirtle and grab release>Uair on ivysaur* Charizard seems the best option, but offcourse, a CG and grab release>arial don't change the whole matchup around) So either don't let the opponent switch, or try to abuse the free hit (don't let the opponent switch without punishment)
You really make it sound like PT players can only play with one Pokemon, and that, for some reason, they have to stick with that pokemon in that matchup. Honestly, if Charizard gets you to 130%, and he dies, I'm going to kill you with Squirtle, not take every waking moment possible to switch to Charizard again. And if I suck with Squirtle, or Squirtle REALLY isn't preferred in the matchup (for example, I really do suck with Squirtle, and I've done this playing friendlies with Snakes), then I'll try to nail a kill/knockback move on you (F-air, U-air [placement dependent], D-throw, U-throw, smashes). If the move kills you, more power to me. If it doesn't kill you and you get sent really high into the air/off-stage, switch time.

They don't just switch when they're far away from you. They switch when you have no choice to attack them (at least, not with any move that matters much) when they switch. They'll usually put you in a situation where you have to recover first.

>___>

edit:

and even if they get stuck out of stamina with their current pokemon, they can still use their priority/damage racking moves/whatever all the same. It doesn't make Squirtle's priority any worse, and IMO it might even help Ivysaur's bullet seed, with lower knockback and all. But if they use a kill move when you'd otherwise "die", it'll knock you far enough from them to switch while you're being sent away and as you're coming back.



Charizards moves

Neutral A: Charizards Neutral A isn't a real threat. It does not do alot of damage, and it can be punished (without much difficulty).

...

Dtilt: Charizards Dtilt is quite fast (the attack itself) but it does have some after lag. This move is quite hard to punish, but not impossible offcourse. Still, This is one of Charizards harder moves to deal with.

...

Fsmash: Charizards Fsmash is slow (wich makes it really punishable, with a sweet knee or Bair) but it hits hard when it connects.

...
Fair: Fair can be a pain. It can send you flying quite far. But its afterlag can be punished nicely.

Dair: Dair can spike, so beware of that. Other than that, its quite slow and has quite some ending lag.

...
neutral b: when caught in Charizards flames, you can counter it easily with an Up b, or just shield it.

...

Down B: Change pokemon - Make sure/try to punish this with a Dsmash or Fsmash when it happens, or even a sweet knee or falcon punch. (I recommend a smash though, as the timing is not too difficult for a smash)

Up B: Up b is kinda hard to counter, but the ending lag can be used for punishment.

Also note that Charizard can glide and has 3 jumps.
Neutral A: Charizard's jab, as I hear, is more of a GTFO move. Either way, he doesn't have to complete the jab combo either ._.;

D-tilt: You make it sound like Charizards use D-tilt to damage or something. Honestly, when I play PT, I only use D-tilt to finish someone off, maybe after a grabrelease or during the opponent's landing. I was under the impression that Charizard's D-tilt is quick and somewhat spammable, but at the most, it'd only be used 2-3 times (once for the 'oh he missed', twice for the "okay, i'm gonna grab his miss- DOH!", and three for the shield push, if neither of the first two hit Falcon)

F-smash: landing lag/spotdodge/roll punishment, but not really much use for it, unless knocking the opponent off the stage to switch.

F-air: SH rising F-airs have lagless landing. It's usually used off-stage (gimp) or on the edge (gimp setup)

D-air: Charizard's D-air is REALLY disjointed below it. It's not difficult at all to hit Falcon during his up-B or his up-B's startup time, and it's almost always fatal as a result. SH D-airs don't autocancel, but FH D-airs do. But FH D-airs hit the ground just as well as Falcon's SH D-airs do.

Flamethrower: Depends. How do you counter Charizard's flame thrower by the edge when Falcon's up-B has such noticeable startup time? Even if you get to SDI out of it and up-B over Falcon, that leaves you in landing lag that he could even land an F-smash on. Sounds fun? Though at the most, it may only rack up 20-30 damage assuming you're not UNDER the ledge.

Down-B//stamina: Honestly, all Charizard has to do is to use a kill move as usual. As long as it knocks you off the edge, it'll buy him time to switch. And if you're not up to that % yet, he can still whittle you down to a % he can kill with even when tired.

Charizard's up-B itself isn't an offensive move, but more of an OoS kill-move at high %'s, and usual recovery issues. It has super armor towards the start, further encouraging its use as a DEFENSIVE move.
 

Zeallyx

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lol forgot?

How did you test these? Training mode, or against some rounds against a person using PT? (note the words I used lol)

anyway, some stuff about Charizard:

I didn't bother to address all the moves, but this is just some stuff that seemed really weird to me.




You really make it sound like PT players can only play with one Pokemon, and that, for some reason, they have to stick with that pokemon in that matchup. Honestly, if Charizard gets you to 130%, and he dies, I'm going to kill you with Squirtle, not take every waking moment possible to switch to Charizard again. And if I suck with Squirtle, or Squirtle REALLY isn't preferred in the matchup (for example, I really do suck with Squirtle, and I've done this playing friendlies with Snakes), then I'll try to nail a kill/knockback move on you (F-air, U-air [placement dependent], D-throw, U-throw, smashes). If the move kills you, more power to me. If it doesn't kill you and you get sent really high into the air/off-stage, switch time.

They don't just switch when they're far away from you. They switch when you have no choice to attack them (at least, not with any move that matters much) when they switch. They'll usually put you in a situation where you have to recover first.

>___>

edit:

and even if they get stuck in stamina, they can still use their priority/damage racking moves/whatever all the same. It doesn't make Squirtle's priority any worse, and IMO it might even help Ivysaur's bullet seed, with lower knockback and all. But if they use a kill move when you'd otherwise "die", it'll knock you far enough for them to recover normally.



Neutral A: Charizard's jab, as I hear, is more of a GTFO move. Either way, he doesn't have to complete the jab combo either ._.;

D-tilt: You make it sound like Charizards use D-tilt to damage or something. Honestly, when I play PT, I only use D-tilt to finish someone off, maybe after a grabrelease or during the opponent's landing. I was under the impression that Charizard's D-tilt is quick and somewhat spammable, but at the most, it'd only be used 2-3 times (once for the 'oh he missed', twice for the "okay, i'm gonna grab his miss- DOH!", and three for the shield push, if neither of the first two hit Falcon)

F-smash: landing lag/spotdodge/roll punishment, but not really much use for it, unless knocking the opponent off the stage to switch.

F-air: SH rising F-airs have lagless landing. It's usually used off-stage (gimp) or on the edge (gimp setup)

D-air: Charizard's D-air is REALLY disjointed below it. It's not difficult at all to hit Falcon during his up-B or his up-B's startup time, and it's almost always fatal as a result. SH D-airs don't autocancel, but FH D-airs do. But FH D-airs hit the ground just as well as Falcon's SH D-airs do.

Flamethrower: Depends. How do you counter Charizard's flame thrower by the edge when Falcon's up-B has such noticeable startup time? Even if you get to SDI out of it and up-B over Falcon, that leaves you in landing lag that he could even land an F-smash on. Sounds fun? Though at the most, it may only rack up 20-30 damage assuming you're not UNDER the ledge.

Down-B//stamina: Honestly, all Charizard has to do is to use a kill move as usual. As long as it knocks you off the edge, it'll buy him time to switch. And if you're not up to that % yet, he can still whittle you down to a % he can kill with even when tired.

Charizard's up-B itself isn't an offensive move, but more of an OoS kill-move at high %'s, and usual recovery issues. It has super armor towards the start, further encouraging its use as a DEFENSIVE move.
yes I forgot, sue me.

I'll edit a reply into this post later.
 

Steeler

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rock smash is not slow when used as a counter

it's almost/just as fast as falcon's jab when used as a "counter"

and the bowser comparisons are horrible. charizard and bowser are completely different, they only share flame breath/flamethrower. that's it. charizard is much much better offstage and is much quicker overall.
 

Tenki

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Oh btw, Ivysaur receives more knockback from fire-type moves.

Falcon's F-smash, Falcon Punch, Raptorboost, and Falcon Kick are super effective.

it's kind of funny. I think I've seen Falcon Kick kill Ivysaur from the stage once lol.
 

Zeallyx

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No you didn't Tenki.

And I still believe Bowser > Charizard.
I agree with steeler that charizard is faster overall and has a better offstage game than bowser, but bowsers grab release stuff is beast.
 

Steeler

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bowser also has a ****ty grab in general.

zard has a top 3 grab. :D
 

Zeallyx

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bowser also has a ****ty grab in general.

zard has a top 3 grab. :D
You act like grabbing an opponent is almost impossible..
even without a large grab range, (perfect) shield>grab isn't too hard to pull off..
 

Steeler

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just because a character has a ****ty grab doesn't make grabbing impossible

see: captain falcon

but i am pointing out differences between zard and bowser, because you seem to be fixed on comparing the two (and declaring that bowser is better)
 

Zeallyx

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just because a character has a ****ty grab doesn't make grabbing impossible

see: captain falcon

but i am pointing out differences between zard and bowser, because you seem to be fixed on comparing the two (and declaring that bowser is better)
I didn't say wich one is better. I listed pro's of both of them, wihtout a conclusion.
 

Xiahou Dun

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Falcon Punch works GREAT against the switching of Pokemon.
Bwahahahahaha.

Lol at the WELL FALCON JUST FAIL SO YEAH HE FAILS argument being put forth by the pkmn trainer mainers. Saddening that the epidemic has spread from the ganon boards.
Ever heard the term "Fight Fire with Fire"? Well this is the opposite end of the scale. "Throw poo at crap" Pokemon Trainer mains are busy enough trying to reason with arrogant High Tiers who automatically stick a 70:30 on every low tier with no real discussion other then a bit. Why bother spending more pointless time arguing with the worst character in the game when they made an even less well informed and intelligent analysis then the former? If Falcon boards made a semi-intelligent analysis of Pokemon Trainer maybe you'd see some more PT player participation.

As it is the OP in this thread was abysmal. The writer of it very clearly showed that he has absolutely nowhere near sufficient knowledge of Pokemon Trainer and has probably barely even played a good one if ever.

Yes, I agree rock smash is better/more reliable than the falcon punch.
Ya think? Falcon Punch is agreed by almost everyone to be the joint worst or second worst move. Rock Smash is considered by many to be in the top 5 moves in the game.

Yes, we all agreed on that. But that doesn't take away the fact that rock smash is still slow.
I think it's 5 frames and then the Counter is out. Although I may be a little off.

except that Charizard is actually pretty fast for a heavy character
He's pretty fast for a light Character.

Falcon vs Squirtle - 60/40
Falcon vs Ivy - 45/55
Falcon vs Charizard - 50-50

Final Result: 55-45 = Falcon has a minor advantage
That's not how a PT matchup works. It's hella easy to fight with just two and completely avoid the disadvantaged character. Even if your ratios were true you need to take the two matchups most in PT's favour and find the middle ground between those two for the overall.

I also found "Also you can be hit by UpTilt>UpTilt" funny. 1 Uptilt will usually lead to about 70% damages worth of juggling.
 

Xiahou Dun

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Perhaps input would give the rest more knowledge, avoiding these threads in the future? So still thanks for your input.
Ok now let me try to look at this from the Falcon side.

Yes the Chaingrab on Squirtle sounds promising. But Squirtle is really hard to grab, really hard. But if 1 grab really does = 1 stock it's still a huge threat that cannot be ignored.

I'd like to hear more about this as well as the Grab Release to Up air on Ivysaur, what can you do with it how can you do it and why is it put forward as if it's gamebreaking.

I know Falcon has some good options with Jab>___. But Bullet Seed and Fly have been known to be excellent Combo Breakers. I highly doubt Fly could break out of this but Bullet Seed probably can being lolframe1 and all that...

The first hit of Bullet Seed can be SDI'd so you avoid the entire thing much like Pikachu's Down Smash. Which is a lifesaver as Bullet Seed has amazing damage racking. Emphasis on CAN though. Literally everyone I play regularly against knows this and none have yet done it successfully. But its thre and if you think you see an unavoidable Bullet Seed coming while in hitlag or whatever(Some predictable setups involve Neutral air to Bullet Seed or Spotdodge bullet Seed at really close range) get that C stick DI mashing and you may just save yourself a world of hurt.

That's all for now as I need ot leave but you will probably see more later tonight or tomorrow.
 

washy

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This might be old but lol at that first post.

Did you like do this in training mode against computers.
 

Umpadumpalump

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The CG on Squirt does not take a stock. Grab release to uair can only be used if the Ivysaur jumps.
 

__V

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Falcon > Squirtle 60-40

Falcon > Charizard 55-45

Ivysaur > Falcon 70-30 (Or possibly even worse)
 

Xiahou Dun

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The CG on Squirt does not take a stock. Grab release to uair can only be used if the Ivysaur jumps.
I see. So what does it achieve? And how much use is the Grab to Uair on Ivy provided he jumps?

I gave it a try and I managed to escape Falcon's jabs between the first and second hit with Bullet Seed a couple times. I also managed to interrupt between the Second Jab and a Grab with both Bullet Seed and Fly once or twice each.

If a Charizard spaces his Forward Air incorrectly the tip of the flame deals damage but no knockbak. This sometimes leads to Falcon jumping through a wall of Fire to deliver a perfect knee which is rare but so full of win it has to be mentioned. I was also surprised at how nicely Falcon's Neutral Air can do in this matchup and due to Charizards slow Down Air startup juggling him with Up Air for a while is pretty easy.

Recovering however Pokemon Trainers good priority disjointed air attacks allow them to edgeguard Falcon with ease. It's not a massive gimpfest but Falcon will always have to make careful recoverys as there's real danger of early kills when he's offstage. Nothign I expect a good Falcon main won't be used to though.
 

Bomber7

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hey guys I got a suggestion (yall will love this) get RJPunch in here and ask him what he thinks of PT

=D
 

Zeallyx

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I see. So what does it achieve? And how much use is the Grab to Uair on Ivy provided he jumps?

I gave it a try and I managed to escape Falcon's jabs between the first and second hit with Bullet Seed a couple times. I also managed to interrupt between the Second Jab and a Grab with both Bullet Seed and Fly once or twice each.

If a Charizard spaces his Forward Air incorrectly the tip of the flame deals damage but no knockbak. This sometimes leads to Falcon jumping through a wall of Fire to deliver a perfect knee which is rare but so full of win it has to be mentioned. I was also surprised at how nicely Falcon's Neutral Air can do in this matchup and due to Charizards slow Down Air startup juggling him with Up Air for a while is pretty easy.

Recovering however Pokemon Trainers good priority disjointed air attacks allow them to edgeguard Falcon with ease. It's not a massive gimpfest but Falcon will always have to make careful recoverys as there's real danger of early kills when he's offstage. Nothign I expect a good Falcon main won't be used to though.
I kept screwing up grab release>Uair on the ivysaur I played (the person who says it only works if ivy jumps) but as far as I have tested, Ivy cant escape a Uair after a grab release if timed correctly.

Also, yes PT can edgeguard falcon nicely, but falcon can also edgeguard PT nicely..
hmm.. :/

Ivysaur has some aerials that sure are hard to deal with (same with squirtle), but a SH flubbed Knee lagless landing is a good approach against both charizard and ivysair, and if shielded falcon can grab or up b them.

If ivysaur and charizard can interrupt falcon's grab game like that, than I admit grabbing either one of them gets harder, but grabbing squirtle remains the same: not hard imo.:)
 

Tenki

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[1] I know Falcon has some good options with Jab>___. But Bullet Seed and Fly have been known to be excellent Combo Breakers. I highly doubt Fly could break out of this but Bullet Seed probably can being lolframe1 and all that...

[2] The first hit of Bullet Seed can be SDI'd so you avoid the entire thing much like Pikachu's Down Smash. Which is a lifesaver as Bullet Seed has amazing damage racking. Emphasis on CAN though. Literally everyone I play regularly against knows this and none have yet done it successfully. But its thre and if you think you see an unavoidable Bullet Seed coming while in hitlag or whatever(Some predictable setups involve Neutral air to Bullet Seed or Spotdodge bullet Seed at really close range) get that C stick DI mashing and you may just save yourself a world of hurt.
[1] Do you mean Fly frame 1, or Bullet Seed frame 1? I spam BS out of shield (or through multi-hit moves) often and it really doesn't feel like a frame 1 move.

[2] Correction: The first hit of Bullet Seed can be DI'd to avoid the entire thing. Pikachu's D-smash must be consistently SDI'd to escape, in my recollection. But if you spotdodge, jump over, or airdodge, and Ivy catches it and uses an early Bullet Seed, you're in for a world of organic hurt.
 

Xiahou Dun

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 24, 2008
Messages
524
Location
England
I kept screwing up grab release>Uair on the ivysaur I played (the person who says it only works if ivy jumps) but as far as I have tested, Ivy cant escape a Uair after a grab release if timed correctly.

Also, yes PT can edgeguard falcon nicely, but falcon can also edgeguard PT nicely..
hmm.. :/

Ivysaur has some aerials that sure are hard to deal with (same with squirtle), but a SH flubbed Knee lagless landing is a good approach against both charizard and ivysair, and if shielded falcon can grab or up b them.

If ivysaur and charizard can interrupt falcon's grab game like that, than I admit grabbing either one of them gets harder, but grabbing squirtle remains the same: not hard imo.:)
Ok so you've landed an Up Air. Now what? Where do you go from here?

Only really Ivy. Falcon doesn't really have too much going for him in the way of getting around the wall of Waterfall or throuch Charizard's Super Armour, although Squirtle is light enough so that a good hit before he gets in Up B Range could finish him, meh. And Ivy gets edgeguarded at low percents only. We can just DI up and not have to use Ivy's up B at all at mid percents. At low percents we'll usually be using Squirtle unless it's a complete **** matchup. All in all I disagree on your estimation of Falcon's edgeguarding against Pokemon Trainer.


Falcon can't Up B Ivy from a standing position she's too short, he just soars over her when i tried it. And with Frame 1 attacks good grabs and Flamethrower I don't really think a flubbed knee is a good approach unless Charizard or Ivy have just thrown out a Missed Smash with decent lag like Charizard's Forward Smash or Ivy's Up Smash. In that case sure it oculd work but when your best option is relying on a huge mistake before you can do anytrhing then you don't really have any good options. :/

Squirtle's Jab hits on Frame 1. If Bullet Seed can break it so can that...

[1] Do you mean Fly frame 1, or Bullet Seed frame 1? I spam BS out of shield (or through multi-hit moves) often and it really doesn't feel like a frame 1 move.

[2] Correction: The first hit of Bullet Seed can be DI'd to avoid the entire thing. Pikachu's D-smash must be consistently SDI'd to escape, in my recollection. But if you spotdodge, jump over, or airdodge, and Ivy catches it and uses an early Bullet Seed, you're in for a world of organic hurt.
1 Bullet Seed. Well some frame data threads say it's frame 2 one says 3 a couple say 4. It's generally referred to as a Frame 1 move although it's not concrete, hence the "lolframe1" it could be an exaggeration or wishful thinking. But it's around that speed. All I need to know is that I can land it between Falcon's jabs if I'm playing Ivy.

2 As well as SDI You can perfect DI Pika's Down Smash so only the very first hit catches you just like Bullet Seed. There's a video somewhere...I'll have to try and find it. And yes no easy way out of Bullet Seed if you fall in without being hti by the pop-up move.
 
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