Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[!!!RM!!!]

How should I feel out my opponents? =B

 

[Tee ay eye]

very sensually with warm, scented oils, while whispering sweet nothings into his/her ear

 

[Cactuar]

i was just gonna answer with "from the inside"


but i guess TAI's answer works too.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Hello Marth boards, thought I'd ask yall since you are more experienced, but can someone please explain the game's rock/paper/scissors to me? And how to apply it? I don't understand it.

 

[DoH]

Cactuar when are you free for some hangout time? I have some stuff I want to test out and cookies to bake

 

[Winston]

Hello Marth boards, thought I'd ask yall since you are more experienced, but can someone please explain the game's rock/paper/scissors to me? And how to apply it? I don't understand it.

rock is approach, paper is something that beats the approach (like dashdancing back), and scissors is something that beats that (an overshot move)

...

(some nuances may have been omitted)

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Hello Marth boards, thought I'd ask yall since you are more experienced, but can someone please explain the game's rock/paper/scissors to me? And how to apply it? I don't understand it.

Shield beats attack, grab beats shield, attack beats grab. That's rock/paper/scissors. That is the game in its truest form.

 

[Walt]

Falco's Dair is rock

Everything else is scissors

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Scissors is Marth's Nair
Rock is Marth's Counter.
Paper is Marth's grab damage.

 

[Cactuar]

Next free weekend I have is the 24th I think. You're more than welcome to come up and try to test stuff on me. I'm highly resistant to "tricks" and such, so try and keep that in mind.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's hard to beat Cactuar because you're always getting distracted by how "cute" he is.

 

[DoH]

I once told Cactuar that these were not the droids he was looking for, and he rolled his eyes and slapped me.

 

[Cactuar]

That sounds like a legit story.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Okay so the way I try to play Marth is a combination of old and new school. They each have very important characteristics they emphasize individually that hurt them overall but can still take them pretty far. I just try to take the good from both and trim the fat.

Old school realllly likes outspacing things. I played with an older player a couple weeks ago, and he was the best Marth main in NC(he may still be now but that doesn't count for much atm like it did back then lol). He made JAB look like a good move, which totally blew my mind. He didn't even use it much. He would just be putting up really weird walls and then if he saw them come in or he suspected they'd come in he'd throw in a jab. It usually hit. This screwed with Twitch(as I was watching the two of them play) and made him respect Marth that much more than if he(Peter, the Marth) were just DD'ing. I mean all he really did was hit someone with a tippered 2-3% move, but it changes things mentally(wait longer to approach, respect walls more, which means you can go in safely for example), which is a less prominent gameplay element that most don't seem to dabble in anymore(you could also call this mindgames or conditioning sort of if you wanted but I don't think either of those are quite right for this for some reason).

PS, walking is OP. Marth has a fast walk that allows him to still utilize all of his options and big moves while being in control of his character and moving his big hitboxes around(theoretically they're always out which is why we space and yeah Marth's big on threatening....I should write about that). Basically, when you run you have fewer options but the goal is/was probably to give up some for the surprise element of Marth's speed or just the contrast from walking in general.

New school wanted to trim the fat, but they ended up trimming too much I feel. So much DD'ing and running and grabbing that sometimes I think people forget that Marth even has moves like Ftilt lol. Still, the maximized efficiency pushed Marth's game in terms of punishment should he get that first hit. Combos, edgeguards, juggles sort of, technical precision....that type of stuff became huge for Marth and it paid off when M2K was also good at getting that first hit/grab by breaking the game down to a 50/50 or better for him when taking in human factors.


The ideal Marth, the solid Marth as I called it last night apparently, is one that takes the understanding of creative walling(which I suppose I'll explain more of in a sec) and move mixups and threatening with the efficient punishments of the modern metagame. Basically taking a neutral position, winning it in as many ways as realistically possible, and then pushing that advantage as hard as possible. This makes sense when written out but I wonder how many do write it out.....


Creative walling is something of a dead art almost. I'm still not very good at it but I understand its importance. When people complained of Marth's range, it was because Marth's were Fair'ing on reaction or threatening with them with empty SHs, or were beating their low moves/shields with Nair, or were cut off on the ground by jab/ftilt/dtilts, or tried to space anything and ate an Fsmash. Then when they shielded they would get grabbed, OR Marth would sit there(threatening). That's off the point of creative walling though. Walling is all mixups, but ground moves chained together or aerial threatens/moves to ground moves or to movement to ground/aerial moves gets pretty complicated and effective if you do it right. Nair(covers some aerials and approaches) to walk forward dtilt(to cover DD'ing closer or grounded approaches) to WD back jab(to cover lag punishment/going high for the dtilt) to double empty hop to SHFF Fair to start new conditioning/re-establish the threat of Marth's moves. I have never done the sequence of things I just suggested in that order but I would have no problem backing it assuming your opponent is reading and not just looking for a couple things to charge at over and over. The moves you use can be seen as less important than understanding what moves come after that, if that makes sense.

The way I look at walling is like this. If someone has a typical approach, figure it out and stop it. You can play your own way until you figure it out and stop it. From then on, you must recognize whether the opponent will come at you harder if you keep blocking their approaches in hopes to catch you spacing for typical moves or they wait longer to try to get you to overcommit and punish your lag(2nd is much more common these days I'm pretty sure). When I played Chillin, I would be caught offguard by how often Chillin would just rush me even when I sat back and countered his "normal" or typical approaches. I would counter them or act as if I was and then take space so it gets easier all the time. That's how I play. Chillin observed this and began rushing me when I always came in to take space and sometimes a little beforehand and it was very unnerving.



Okay long Marth post over lol. If that's confusing then just ask questions. XD

Awesome PP post, i think any marth main will enjoy this :o

 

[AceDudeyeah]

What's a good way to practice SDI'ing fox's up-air?
I got roommates who can keep doing it to me, but I'm looking for some sort of setting where my Marth will always be at the correct percent to make their upthrow -> upair easier because they are not experienced players.
Just people who can drillkick me/dsmash me to help me practice DI and such.
I thought about going to practice mode and having me(the Marth) play as the "computer" and doing the pause-percent-reset, but then there'd be no use of the c-stick...

 

[.Chipmunk.]

What's a good way to practice SDI'ing fox's up-air?
I got roommates who can keep doing it to me, but I'm looking for some sort of setting where my Marth will always be at the correct percent to make their upthrow -> upair easier because they are not experienced players.
Just people who can drillkick me/dsmash me to help me practice DI and such.
I thought about going to practice mode and having me(the Marth) play as the "computer" and doing the pause-percent-reset, but then there'd be no use of the c-stick...

The only way to really practice it is to just keep playing against fox's that do it consistently. Yoshi's is a good level to practice it on because there is no give. If you mess up you die. Just toss it on unlimited time or 99 stocks and battle it out. As far as SDI'ing, that depends on what SDI you want to use. Some people do the DI the throw, then SDI the uair the opposite direction, to which fox player's can shine turn around uair (really gay). The second school of thought is to SDI up. The third and final one that i've heard of is the quarter circle SDI which uses both side and up SDI to increase your DI chances. The entire reason SDI is possible on the uair is because fox hits with both feet in the uair and the first hit is really weak but allows for the SDI away from the second hit. So yeah, just keep getting punished till you figure out what works best and most consistently for you.

 

[ArcNatural]

What's a good way to practice SDI'ing fox's up-air?
I got roommates who can keep doing it to me, but I'm looking for some sort of setting where my Marth will always be at the correct percent to make their upthrow -> upair easier because they are not experienced players.
Just people who can drillkick me/dsmash me to help me practice DI and such.
I thought about going to practice mode and having me(the Marth) play as the "computer" and doing the pause-percent-reset, but then there'd be no use of the c-stick...

Two methods:

Get the DI and Half Circle to the opposite direction (IE hold West, when they go to upair rotate NW, N, NE, E). This is if you want to get the hang of being precise.

Another really good way to always get it is to simply practice dash dancing with Sheik. If you can dash dance with Sheik, all you need to do is spam the DD motion in the air and you will get the smash DI at a really good rate.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Two methods:

Get the DI and Half Circle to the opposite direction (IE hold West, when they go to upair rotate NW, N, NE, E). This is if you want to get the hang of being precise.

Another really good way to always get it is to simply practice dash dancing with Sheik. If you can dash dance with Sheik, all you need to do is spam the DD motion in the air and you will get the smash DI at a really good rate.

Gah. I always forget the dash dance method. That's probably the one i should be using.

 

[V]

Hey what's up guys. I've found the light and am switching from brawl to melee so I'll be hanging in these parts from now on.

 

[KirbyKaze]

welcome to the world of tomorrow!

...yesterday.

 

[V]

What's funny is I've played this game since the day it came out and I used marth not knowing anything about competitive smash until brawl came out. I've been messing with melee on and off for about two years but I'm sick of brawl. I'm tired of dealing with bad players who get by abusing broken aspects of the game when they have no skill. If I lose in this game its because I flat out got out played. Brawl I hardly feel that way. Plus this game is just fun to practice and the players are way more chill.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

wow long marth post by pp. he definitely had some interesting ideas

 

[.Chipmunk.]

What's funny is I've played this game since the day it came out and I used marth not knowing anything about competitive smash until brawl came out. I've been messing with melee on and off for about two years but I'm sick of brawl. I'm tired of dealing with bad players who get by abusing broken aspects of the game when they have no skill. If I lose in this game its because I flat out got out played. Brawl I hardly feel that way. Plus this game is just fun to practice and the players are way more chill.

Also, the secret technique of M2K is to play melee to practice brawl.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I meant a way that would make the practice of SDI'ing more efficient/plausible as I have my noob-roommates play fox and upthrow up-air me.
Like it would be faster to practice up-b out of shield on Corneria because you can grab the fin and eliminate the landing lag on any other stages so you can practice more up-b's in less time.

But as long as we're on the topic of different SDI methods, is there a superior one?
I always thought SDI'ing up was the one with the most chance of success at the cost of DIing up and possibly killing yourself if you miss the SDI.

 

[Winston]

SDI to the side is better than SDI up, I think.

 

[Jartravious]

Haha. I still answer good/interesting questions.

Most of the stuff that comes through here has been answered at least 5x before.

Would you be willing to take the good questions and responses and put them on the first page or something

 

[Cactuar]

I mean, I said that I would when I made this thread. I haven't forgotten. That post is still barren on purpose.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I mean, I said that I would when I made this thread. I haven't forgotten. That post is still barren on purpose.

lolz the ambiguous callout

either we suck cause we've been giving bad questions

or cactus sucks because hes hasnt had any good answers

what a riddle

 

[Smasher89]

This might have been asked alot of times before, but is there a thread or somewhere that I can see a summary of the upthrow mechanics in different matchups and at different %. Like when it´s possible to shine out as fox/falco, or when a character lands on for example YS platforms /similar things? Not sure I´ll keep moving forwards a speedbased(hard execution) play as ICs but instead calcylated walk based play as marth(melee MK).

 

[_eternal]

What should I do if I grab a Falcon at 0%? Or should I not be doing that?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

What should I do if I grab a Falcon at 0%? Or should I not be doing that?

Depends on where you are. If there is a platform above I would uthrow and play the platform game. Otherwise I'm fond of fthrow unless a dthrow will push him off the stage for edge guard shenanigans. Shrug.

 

[Winston]

fthrow at 0 lets him buffer roll out. If they're a buffer rolling type you might want to try to fthrow and punish the roll, but generally its more consistent at 0 to dthrow techchase until you can start fthrow techchasing.

 

[_eternal]

Okay, that makes sense. I noticed that uthrow wasn't linking to anything and fthrow didn't knock him to the ground (and I don't think fthrow -> dtilt works on him like it does on Fox at 0). So yeah, pretty much just techchase.

 

[Strong Badam]

What should I do if I grab a Falcon at 0%? Or should I not be doing that?

i usually fthrow and see what they do and then next time i'm usually able to get another grab or something depending.

 

[Tee ay eye]

marth can't cargo throw, strong bad

 

[Strong Badam]

lol tai XD

 

[Winston]

Yeah that's probably fine if you're like, at the wrong end of the stage on FD/DL, but I think on the smaller stages/at the edge of FD/DL dthrow techchasing is just better.

 

[Aber]

Falco's ledge hop lasers? What to do about them? I mean the obvious thing is counter but if they wait for it or do pretty much anything else your in a really bad vulnerable position.......Attempting to counter is feast or famine you have to be absolutely sure they're going to ledgehop laser.......Are there other options to beat it/get falco back off stage? What can be done to put yourself in a position to react to the ledge hop laser as well as any other option falco has?

 

[the_CAM_factor]

powershield grab the second lazer can work

 

[Winston]

You can crouch -> dtilt a lot of peoples' ledgehop lasers because they don't shoot them low enough.

I think shield -> fair oos between the lasers works too if you have really good timing, not sure though.