Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[linkoninja]

Jab and dash attack cancel out every projectile Samus has, even a full charge shot. If you find yourself at a distance getting spammed, just jab > wd or dash attack your way to better spacing so you can punish that laggy ****. Who knows, you can probably do the same thing with fair.

how do you dash attack cancel :O? I've heard of it but I don't know how to do it.

 

[Alukard]

so i picked up marth again ... YAY!

i hate pokemon and yoshis in doubles ... and in singles i'm starting to hate falco more then sheik >_> lololol

 

[Beat!]

Falco is such a fun MU. I don't understand all the hate. A PS or two and he goes from confident bird to scared chicken. Then you touch him and he dies. Then he tries to get a quick revenge KO and you gimp him.

Just WD OOS into stuff a bunch. It's funky and cool yet effective.

 

[Niko45]

two words: shine grab

 

[Beat!]

*shrug* I try to not get caught in that situation in the first place. I mostly use shield for baiting purposes (and PSing).

Of course I'll still end up in that situation sometimes, but if it's just a few times then getting grabbed isn't really the end of the world.

 

[Niko45]

At a certain point Falco just becomes really really hard if the Falco is really good and/or comfortable with the MU.

Believe me at many different points I've said "ok, I've figured this character out," and each time, it turns out I haven't. :/

 

[Mew2King]

I think falco's fun too... when they aren't good

I beat a falco in my 3rd round gen2 pools in 58 seconds.

really good ones are A TOTALLY different story. A lot of marth vs falco MU comes from either perfect powershielding, or punishing a mistake, and mistakes are rare at high level falco play today. Marth's easier to slay newbs falcos or one's that don't know the MU as well. Low level play and high level play that MU is ENTIRELY different.

 

[Veetaak]

really good ones are A TOTALLY different story. A lot of marth vs falco MU comes from either perfect powershielding, or punishing a mistake, and mistakes are rare at high level falco play today. Marth's easier to slay newbs falcos or one's that don't know the MU as well. Low level play and high level play that MU is ENTIRELY different.

This is so true

Marth does so much better when he is able to punish alot

 

[leffen]

@Niko- as long as people are evolving you have to keep learning matchups ;o

and punishing "mistakes" as the only thing marth can do? lmfao, really? This isn't brawl, every option has a counter and you can force a lot of options, they don't have to make a mistake for you to be able to punish it.

 

[Beat!]

Idk, I've heard that several times (about the matchup becoming super tough against really good Falcos), but even after playing against players like Pepito, leffen, Calle W and Hack I still don't feel like the matchup in itself is any problematic. I rarely lose by much and a lot of the time I feel like I'm doing better than I "should", considering how much better they are (as evidenced by my performance against them in other matchups). Guess I'll have to wait and see if my opinion changes.

 

[Mew2King]

falco's shield pressure, when done at a high level, has a huge risk/reward ratio in falco's favor against marth. Shield grabbing is not a good option at all in today's metagame, and all of marth's other punishes are not very strong. The best he can do is get a WD OOS (assuming they don't waveshine towards you or shine-grab, which mango and PP both do) or a Fair OOS. Fox, Falco, Sheik, Peach, and probably even puff (due to her low duck which can maneuver around many options and mixups for falco pressure) have better OOS options, and can also hold their shields for longer than marth can.

yeah beat, no offense, but you haven't played a truely high level falco yet

I used to think marth beat falco for a while, when I used to 3 stock everyone, and then they stopped putting themselves in positions where I was able to grab them, and started killing off of combos and not messing up fundamentals. Marth is probably the 2nd strongest "punish" character in the game, after jigglypuff (but if you ban FD... his punishes become MUCH worse). I've probably jv 5 stocked over 50 times with marth actually, in various matchups, most common ones being marth ditto, marth vs fox, marth vs falco (yes i've jv 5d many falcos) and marth vs samus. Trust me I know a lot about this subject and MU, but if you went over to Lucky's house and played Mango for hours AFTER MANGO WAS FULLY WARMED UP AND NOT MESSING AROUND, you would see how it can be. And Mango doesn't even camp me at all, it's just the pressure situations Marth lacks answers for compared to most of the other top tiers. The only character that truely has it worse is C.Falcon in terms of OOS options.

Another very problematic thing that marth has against Falco but not Fox is Falco's short hop Nair is perfect for shield stabbing marth. If marth has like... idk... anything less than half shield, it will always shield stab him. None of the other characters have this problem, and it gives very little time to think or stay in shield; another thing falco can take advantage of. I think Marth does much better vs Fox than Falco by far, at top level.

 

[leffen]

the matchup isn't based on falco sitting on marths shield >_>.

that is like me saying "OMG FALCO LOSES MARTH CAN EDGEGUARD FALCO BETTER THAN PEACH"

>_>

and for every stupid "omg pp and mango did this this this and you cant do anything vs it" just stfu, Taj proved that you can do something about it.
Oh and lmao at me not being "high level", I was the second highest placing falco main at genesis 2 >_>

 

[Beat!]

None offense taken, M2K, I'm here to learn =) (but I think you're underestimating leffen and the others ).

I'll still consider the matchup in Marths favour though, at least until I get to play Mango/PP .

I'll beat 'em =D

 

[Veetaak]

I suck so much against marth. I like the match-up though.

I'm so bad at recovering, especially against his gimps, I suck at spacing and I start to tremble when I lose my flow (when marth PS a laser for example)

 

[Tee ay eye]

the matchup isn't based on falco sitting on marths shield >_>.

that is like me saying "OMG FALCO LOSES MARTH CAN EDGEGUARD FALCO BETTER THAN PEACH"

>_>

and for every stupid "omg pp and mango did this this this and you cant do anything vs it" just stfu, Taj proved that you can do something about it.
Oh and lmao at me not being "high level", I was the second highest placing falco main at genesis 2 >_>

no offense, but i'm not sure how much of an accomplishment being the second highest placing falco main at G2 actually is. what other notable falco players were there other than peepee and yourself?

i'm pretty sure mew2king meant "top level," rather than "high level." tbh i actually do think you are a good player, and i actually respect you as a player, although a lot of people don't and have nothing but contempt for you, but i wouldn't say you are quite on the level of dr. peepee, mango, zhu

Spoiler

on a good day

, and maybe axe, who would be the players that represent the level of falco that jason is referring to.

 

[Beat!]

Hey Tai, what's Taj's opinion on the matchup?

 

[OverLord]

Leffen is probably closer to them than you people thinks, I have strong faith in his future accomplishements.


By the way, I think Falco-Marth is kinda even and though M2K said lot of true facts, as Leffen stated you can avoid being in that situation with a bit of effort.

 

[leffen]

no offense, but i'm not sure how much of an accomplishment being the second highest placing falco main at G2 actually is. what other notable falco players were there other than peepee and yourself?

i'm pretty sure mew2king meant "top level," rather than "high level." tbh i actually do think you are a good player, and i actually respect you as a player, although a lot of people don't and have nothing but contempt for you, but i wouldn't say you are quite on the level of dr. peepee, mango, zhu

Spoiler

on a good day

, and maybe axe, who would be the players that represent the level of falco that jason is referring to.

no offense taken, its just really stupid to do the thing ppl always do "you absolutely have NO IDEA about high level because you haven't played mango when he isn't messing around!!11"
Do you really think that I'm so far away from their level that I just don't know anything of those GAMEBREAKING (shinegrabbing, not making mistakes!!11!) that PP just learned once he became a little better? Thats the only thing that I'm really debating, since he obvoiusly thinks that I can't display the matchup at a level anywhere close to theirs and that PP (who is considerably better than M2K, mind you) vs him is a 100% accurate display of the matchup.

also, random john: I'm pretty sure that I would've gotten at least 8th place if I had not underestimated s2j so badly (>_<) and I'm pretty sure that I could've pulled out vs M2K since hes bad at the match up.

Btw: its funny that people never say "oh but x european player has gotten a LOT better since X national" but people always say "omg pp is much better than he was at apex2010 BECAUSE WE KNOW FROM AMERICAN REGIONALS!!!"
It's not really that many simply view europe as worse, its just that american player rankings get updated and changed while european players sit on their last american national placement. I can give examples if you want, but you should get the idea.

uhhuh, just a random thought.

 

[Dart!]

the matchup isn't based on falco sitting on marths shield >_>.

that is like me saying "OMG FALCO LOSES MARTH CAN EDGEGUARD FALCO BETTER THAN PEACH"

>_>

and for every stupid "omg pp and mango did this this this and you cant do anything vs it" just stfu, Taj proved that you can do something about it.
Oh and lmao at me not being "high level", I was the second highest placing falco main at genesis 2 >_>

He likes to underestimate people. don't sweat it.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

lol jv5ing samuses

im so ashamed at being so bad at that matchup

 

[Niko45]

I mean it's not only Marth, any player will tell you Falco gets considerably harder against their character at higher level.

It's a character that just flat out wins when he doesn't mess up.

 

[stopNstart]

m2k would tap that *** leffen all night.

 

[Aber]

m2k would tap that *** leffen all night.

agree. seconded.

 

[leffen]

lmfao @niko.

that is a terrible argument, how do you define "mess up", there is no perfect option, that is just getting outplayed.

also watch Ice.

 

[Niko45]

Wasn't really arguing anything, just stating facts.

Speaking of Ice, you should probably not get free-0'd by him if you're going to claim you'd beat m2k.

 

[leffen]

yeah because m2k has done so great vs Falco lately

*remembers all the 4 stock ragequits and copouts to sheik*
when did he defeat a top level falco recently using marth only D:
I was also really off my game vs Ice, I missed every single combo and punish lol.
not really worth discussing however, the past is the past and we both know that we won't change our opinion.

well using your "stating facts" strategy I could go on and say that Marth wins when he doesn't make mistakes. Its really dumb and shallow.
I was also responding to m2k on that point ;o

 

[Niko45]

Yea it's really shallow I know. I'm pretty lazy. You just clearly are looking for a debate or something and I was just sort of talking and don't feel like getting into it.

Going back to the original point that brought it all up I can totally understand someone feeling like Falco is harder than Sheik.

And first it's like "go watch Ice" then it's "oh wait I was off my game" ie MESSING UP a lot. Go watch you vs Ice for my definition of Falco messing up.

 

[leffen]

me being the debater and someone else being the troll for once

thats new.


and if you take the result of a match as a indicator for who wins the matchup then ur ******** anyway (m2k logic hurrdurr).
Me flubbing combos has nothing to do with how the neutral game is played (the important part) which is what Ice is so good at while M2K really only knows how to continue combos.

 

[Beat!]

Noooo Falco is freeeeeeeeee

Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[Niko45]

Well I don't see how I'm using a result to determine a MU since the Marth won in that set.

But since the games are all pretty close and you say you were dropping tons of punishes clearly his neutral game wasn't good enough cause under normal circumstances you would have gotten enough hits to win.

I just went back and watched it again just in case you might not be full of it, and I don't want to get into it cause I'm really not trying to bash players but no I'm really confused as to why his neutral game is so good. His punishes are pretty sick tho.

 

[leffen]

Not saying that his neutral game is perfect by any means, but he displays a lot of legit options that aren't really used at all by many top marths. It still remains to be refined but I think he has got a better basic understanding then anyone else tbh.

Also, it being close is partly due to it consisting of my CPs with no bans on lol.

His neutral game did more or less force me to forget standard lasering too which I don't really feel I have to do vs ANY other marth (not in the US either, armada said the same thing and he has played falco vs m2k plenty lol).

 

[Beat!]

Taj is pretty good at the neutral game too.

 

[leffen]

Very true, Taj really just beat the character outright vs Mango.

I also think that marth having so superior punishes is the main reason to why he wins.

 

[Niko45]

I was wondering why you like...never lasered.

He didn't powershield a single time.

Like you basically tried to fight Fox vs Marth with Falco and just got pivot grabbed for free. And then went on platforms without much of a plan when you got scared and he admittedly did a good job swatting you out of that but still it's weird to watch.

I can understand if some previous experience where he PS'd a lot or something intimidated you but still...you gotta make him beat you the hard way. Pivot grabbing Falco's naked crappy mobility is free.

He also whiffed like 9/10 counters from like across the stage.

Under any sort of pressure he pretty much just sat in shield until you either ***** him or sometimes you whiffed a grab right in front of him or fsmashed it for free openings. There was like no WD oos stuff, no fair oos stuff.

Like you have to play people to really know what's going on so I'm not trying to judge too much off of youtube but it still doesn't look like anything he's doing is that significant.

I'm trying to be fair here, is there a better example of Ice's neutral game you could link?

 

[leffen]

Good points- I don't really have time to answer how (homework -_-) but I'll try to get it later.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBH1O...&feature=g-all

my marth vs shiek/marth.

tips appreciated.

 

[Beat!]

IIRC first game of Ice vs Calle W from Beast 2 was a pretty good demonstration by Ice (CW switched to Fox after that).

 

[Aber]

i think the primary argument against ice is that european falcos aren't at the same level as top american ones. Which I tend to agree with.

 

[Divinokage]

yeah because m2k has done so great vs Falco lately

That's fine by me because regardless he would own you for free.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i think the primary argument against ice is that european falcos aren't at the same level as top american ones. Which I tend to agree with.

i would say that applies to one player. peepee.

what other falcos soar above the rest? i feel like people judge too easily based on how they play in the technical aspect, since they tend to be more mental players.