Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Tarv]

Most important thing to do in the Marth vs Zelda MU is to make sure they don't press down+b.

Seriously though, from what I've seen Zelda's have an insanely difficult time approaching. They're limited to more or less waiting for their opponent to make a hasty decision and put themselves into bad position rather than creating options for themselves outright. So obviously dont be overly aggressive in your approaches play defensively if you have to because if they approach you, you have an arsenal of tools that can mess Zelda up: Dtilt within itself is a great zoning tool if that's how you wish to play the match, Then again, Marth has the advantage in pretty much every area of this match where even if you wanted to play it aggressively welll-spaced fairs, dtilts and dash attacks are your best friend. Of course uthrow, utilt, uair never let anybody down. I guess it really boils down to treating her like a peach that can't punish you nearly as well and can't really approach you. I guess the only way to give Zelda an opening is to purposefully put yourself into a bad position which includes but is not limited to running up to her, staring and doing nothing.

 

[BTmoney]

PPU seems to favor SHDFing, and then running with a FH dair instead of doing traditional Ken Combos. It allows him to react to the DI, and unlike a traditional Ken Combo, if they DI away on the last fair, you're on the ground instead of the air so you can just WD into fsmash/dtilt/ftilt. Idk if he is doing something in particular to make sure his fair chains always end on the ground, or if he just happened to be spaced properly for that when I saw him. As far as fair dair instead of fair/uair, I like it, but only out of SH. If you're even a little higher off the ground than SH distance, they're virtually guaranteed to react with a tech in time, and even if they tech a SH fair dair, you are on the ground soon enough to tech chase anyway.

Hmm, yeah that's basically how I feel about it. Does falling tipper fair combo into FH dair though? I know I get FH dairs sometimes but I actually don't know what it combos off of.

I think fair->uair is really good too.

Does anyone have advice in the Marth VS Zelda matchup? I know her physics are a lot like Peach.

DD grab, uthrow. Zelda likes to sit in shield. I think it's a super free MU. Think of her like a really really bad Peach. I don't really see how they are comparable other than in floatiness.

 

[Bones0]

It depends on the character and % obviously, but I think it would vs. most characters. There's not a whole lot they can do in that situation anyway other than try to jump out, and that will almost always get them killed if you do decide to fair so I think most people would opt for some sort of DI pretty much every time.


As for Zelda, I thought she was like DD grab proof because she can SH double kick and just be absurdly safe? I would wait for Umbreon to chip in since he's one of the 5 ever Zelda mains that was ever decent.

 

[BTmoney]

As for Zelda, I thought she was like DD grab proof because she can SH double kick and just be absurdly safe? I would wait for Umbreon to chip in since he's one of the 5 ever Zelda mains that was ever decent.

firstly,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cCKso1BVY8


secondly,
I mean if the second kick auto cancels (which I don't know) then that'd be pretty safe but even then she's just a bad Peach and Peach is grabbable enough. I don't see anything for her right now, idk.

 

[Deleted member]

zelda vs marth is literally unwinnable if marth plays right. i love it. the last marth i played against was tai at apex 2012 though and he'd body me now lol.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

Tai almost JV5'd my Zelda when I played him...

...but I'm also a super scrub.

 

[Tarv]

firstly,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cCKso1BVY8

That guy is boss at telling stories.

 

[Cactuar]

Lol. Zelda being DD grab proof. Lololol. ol. ololol.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Just dashdance outside her toe and dash attack range and watch her die. Use long dash dance iterations.

Also know that she is horribly, miserably ****ed above you. Don't let her get away with airdodges cause thats literally all she can do. Her dair is pitiful.

[note: these are general rules of thumb if you want to JV 5 a Zelda, but tbh you can do pretty much whatever you want and still win. Zelda sucks.]

 

[Mahie]

As for Zelda, I thought she was like DD grab proof because she can SH double kick and just be absurdly safe? I would wait for Umbreon to chip in since he's one of the 5 ever Zelda mains that was ever decent.

You should think about it in terms of landing lag, squat frames and start-up for the kicks, or moves in general if you're asking yourself these questions.

 

[Dr Peepee]

How do you all feel about going for Ken combos onstage/center stage?

Most people have good enough combo DI to not let you fair them 3 times (i.e. at most you will get two fairs) so I believe that the positional and or marginal gain of a fair->dair which leads to either miss tech->huge opening or tech read grab so you can uthrow->uair forever is greater than the gain you get for fair->fair. (Hell maybe fair->uair is actually the best option)

/*
edit:
does dair actually lag cancel fast enough to chase the tech consistently? it's pretty disproportional as far as the lag goes
*/

This decision making and cause effect tree is affected by MU, stage and % though. I think there should pretty much be more fair->dairs and fair->uairs really at anytime.

Max?

Max will probly just tell you to hit them up lol.

I would also add conditioning and momentum to your factors to consider, as the way you comboed them last time and how the pace of the match is going will undoubtedly affect someone's DI.

Your question would basically have me talk about comboing for quite a while, so I'll answer by talking about what works for me for now. I typically combo with Fairs almost solely on momentum and % because people tend to not switch up their DI too much on Marth combos. They usually do so very early or very late from what I've noticed. This is actually kind of adaptive, as I've personally played around with different DI when being comboed by Marth and it seems not to help if I keep switching(possibly for momentum-stacking reasons but I'm probably wrong about that lol.)

What this means for Marth is that he should make a decision pretty early on about whether he wants to combo a while or not. If he wants to end it early, then move towards the edge with Fairs(probably untippered) or simply Fsmash. Both of these are great at punishing away DI. If you want to wreck inwards DI, then start Fair chaining(with some Uairs sometimes because lol[depending on MU]) and you'll get some off before MOST people adapt and that'll depend on you in part too with how quickly you swing etc etc since combo pacing could also technically influence how quickly they want to change their DI. Always assume you have control of the combo, that's a pretty solid rule to have(and with Marth especially, it's empowering....and right.)


Hope this helps. =)

 

[Dorsey]

^trash advice

I posted a .gif for you bro, if it vanishes I can only assume it's from the salt of that past 2v2 set that me and adam SHOULDA WON.

 

[Dr Peepee]

LMAO I def understand that but idk how I'd be salty about it

It was pretty close though you played well man

 

[Dorsey]

salty after winning sounds sensible at this hour(and the shenanigans that come with it).. sort of

and thanks, one of the only gg's i played that day

 

[_wzrd]

firstly,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cCKso1BVY8

LMFAO

shoutouts to hawaii & DM
jeeze

 

[Bones0]

Max will probly just tell you to hit them up lol.

I would also add conditioning and momentum to your factors to consider, as the way you comboed them last time and how the pace of the match is going will undoubtedly affect someone's DI.

Your question would basically have me talk about comboing for quite a while, so I'll answer by talking about what works for me for now. I typically combo with Fairs almost solely on momentum and % because people tend to not switch up their DI too much on Marth combos. They usually do so very early or very late from what I've noticed. This is actually kind of adaptive, as I've personally played around with different DI when being comboed by Marth and it seems not to help if I keep switching(possibly for momentum-stacking reasons but I'm probably wrong about that lol.)

What this means for Marth is that he should make a decision pretty early on about whether he wants to combo a while or not. If he wants to end it early, then move towards the edge with Fairs(probably untippered) or simply Fsmash. Both of these are great at punishing away DI. If you want to wreck inwards DI, then start Fair chaining(with some Uairs sometimes because lol[depending on MU]) and you'll get some off before MOST people adapt and that'll depend on you in part too with how quickly you swing etc etc since combo pacing could also technically influence how quickly they want to change their DI. Always assume you have control of the combo, that's a pretty solid rule to have(and with Marth especially, it's empowering....and right.)


Hope this helps. =)

I don't think the fair thing is momentum stacking or anything. I just think that's a result of requiring more than one or two fairs to actually get knocked far enough away most of the time. I have especially noticed this when I play Puff vs. Marth. Even if you DI away on the first fair, at lower percents you're probably going to get faired 3-4 more times, but if you DI in it's even worse so you sort of have to just take a bunch of fairs as a trade off for not getting daired at the end. I think SDIing the dair might be a difference maker in these situations though, so perhaps I'll try DIing in on the first fair of a combo and then SDIing the second one away to see if this gets me out sooner than just the usual hold DI.

 

[Punzz]

marth boards are fun .....xd

 

[BTmoney]

Hope this helps. =)

Thanks for the response, like I said before It's cool getting responses from good players

Yeah I got some stuff to mess around with

 

[Deleted member]

Max will probly just tell you to hit them up lol.

Have I ever told you how much you're my nigga? Like, I knew you were a homie when you drove back from apex after playing in the finals, but I feel like you just "get" me.

I wish you lived closer so you could dashdance camp me more

~ <3

 

[Dr Peepee]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLL <3333

I'm comin to a xanadu soon let's hang out man

 

[strawhats]

PPU (marth) vs Hbox (puff)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRD4xvaREds

PPU(marth) vs Axe (pikachu)
http://www.mediafire.com/?5ye511ry6zkh312

 

[CyberZixx]

I had no idea there were matches saved besides top 8. Thanks for that.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Okay, lets ask pp. Why Marth recently? Why keep going with the character. Where do you want to end up with the character? Perhaps replace Falco entirely? Merely keep the option open for another character? Maybe want to prove a point about something?

 

[Druggedfox]

cuz marth is the best yeaaaaa

 

[Tarv]

I have a question for all the smash/Marth historians in the building. When did the Marth/Puff MU swing in Puff's favor? I remember looking at an old MU chart (which may have been biased, I dont know) awhile ago that had Marth with a 60/40 advantage. I would like to know what changed about Puff's playstyle that caused this shift this happen? What did puffs figure out? What did Marths stop doing? Or alternatively has Puff always been a difficult match for Marth? In that regard I don't really understand why it's traditionally seen as a difficult match; just be mindful of your spacing and keeping batting the pink ******* away. Of course that's oversimplifying things but it's not clear to be why its considered by many to be a difficult match for Marth. Is it because she's hard to kill? Because she can weave in and out of Marth's range easily? Because it's impossible to get a reliant grab on her? Because she can punish marth really easily? What is it? Why can't nairs solve everything?!

Basically, let's talk about Marth vs. Puff.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Okay, lets ask pp. Why Marth recently? Why keep going with the character. Where do you want to end up with the character? Perhaps replace Falco entirely? Merely keep the option open for another character? Maybe want to prove a point about something?

Why Marth? Because he feels good, because he fits my mind well, because he's a good character, and eventually he will, hopefully, be a tournament staple for me. This does not mean he will replace Falco, but perhaps he will see more use as I see fit. Ideally, I'd co-main the characters(insert a shuddering Umbreon) but that is proving to be a wonderfully difficult task.

I kind of initially started with Marth to prove he wasn't "dead" or whatever people say about him, and it still boils my blood a bit when people say ignorant things about him. That's a subject in itself haha.

Now, I'm not sure what I want to do honestly. I think the answer lies in what I end up figuring out about Marth as well as some outside factors(my Marth will stay consistent while my Falco has not seemed to stay that way.) I'm on a bit of a soul-seeking journey that is a lot of practicing and theorizing etc and hopefully whatever I get out of that will be something I can assert as a better understanding of Marth. I wish I had something better to offer, but right now I don't. I'll put in double-time on this because it reflects badly on the character and myself when I have not made a big call on him yet. Especially once exams are over.

I have a question for all the smash/Marth historians in the building. When did the Marth/Puff MU swing in Puff's favor? I remember looking at an old MU chart (which may have been biased, I dont know) awhile ago that had Marth with a 60/40 advantage. I would like to know what changed about Puff's playstyle that caused this shift this happen? What did puffs figure out? What did Marths stop doing? Or alternatively has Puff always been a difficult match for Marth? In that regard I don't really understand why it's traditionally seen as a difficult match; just be mindful of your spacing and keeping batting the pink ******* away. Of course that's oversimplifying things but it's not clear to be why its considered by many to be a difficult match for Marth. Is it because she's hard to kill? Because she can weave in and out of Marth's range easily? Because it's impossible to get a reliant grab on her? Because she can punish marth really easily? What is it? Why can't nairs solve everything?!

Basically, let's talk about Marth vs. Puff.

The matchup swung in the 09-10 era as Hbox beat all the Marths and the era of Puff was at its fullest. People were also putting Jigglypuff at the top of the tierlist and other such fun things at the time.

Marth vs Puff is actually pretty interesting but I seriously believe Marth whups her. The punish game isn't so terrible between them if you know what you're doing. Playing slowly vs slow Puffs and swatting or grabbing approaching Puffs keeps the control firmly in Marth's favor and Marth juggles Puff better than vice versa. Edgeguarding it may be slight puff advantage overall but Marth's could stand a serious re-vamp in their edgeguarding these days.

-don't be a noob and fall for baits when she's weaving away because that's all she has.

-if she drifts in at all then punish her with your bigger disjoint.

-learn to count jumps, she has 5 and most Puffs don't use more than 3 because they worry about getting killed for using them all.

-PATIENCE

-Nairs don't do anything unless you get a read and they kinda suck for keeping Puff out. The only move Marth's Nair reliably beats is Puff's Nair.


If you wanna talk about it or anything else I've said in more specific terms I'd be glad to. It's been a while since I've directly discussed either topic.

 

[Tarv]

Hmm, interesting stuff PP. I was hoping you'd elaborate on your comment "...but Marth's could stand a serious re-vamp in their edgeguard these days" Do you mean that most Marths just aren't as good with their edgeguarding, like they aren't on-point with it enough or the whole approach to edgeguarding from a Marth's perspective needs an adjustment? Are you keeping edgeguarding secrets?

Also in regards to Nairs it was my impression that throwing out Nairs was a good zoning tool but I could reasonably be wrong. To me, it seemed like Nairs were a good way to keep Puffs approach honest. This may be a poor way of putting it but Nairs help creating that "wall of swords" that make it difficult for Puff's to get to Marth in my personal opinion.

A lot of my strategies in the match come from watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1pT_56wWyM which in my opinion is a fantastic example of how to play the match. Buuuut, it may be outdated since it's like six years old. Nice to know that most of things I picked up are still relevant in the current game.

I've always just played the match with the principle "don't let her get near you, if she does you're dead" and thus I keep hitting her like a pinata.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hmm, interesting stuff PP. I was hoping you'd elaborate on your comment "...but Marth's could stand a serious re-vamp in their edgeguard these days" Do you mean that most Marths just aren't as good with their edgeguarding, like they aren't on-point with it enough or the whole approach to edgeguarding from a Marth's perspective needs an adjustment? Are you keeping edgeguarding secrets?

Also in regards to Nairs it was my impression that throwing out Nairs was a good zoning tool but I could reasonably be wrong. To me, it seemed like Nairs were a good way to keep Puffs approach honest. This may be a poor way of putting it but Nairs help creating that "wall of swords" that make it difficult for Puff's to get to Marth in my personal opinion.

A lot of my strategies in the match come from watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1pT_56wWyM which in my opinion is a fantastic example of how to play the match. Buuuut, it may be outdated since it's like six years old. Nice to know that most of things I picked up are still relevant in the current game.

I've always just played the match with the principle "don't let her get near you, if she does you're dead" and thus I keep hitting her like a pinata.

I did not explain everything is all haha. Watch how Hbox recovers vs Marth. If he's low he comes up with some Bairs around their sword height to keep them away then weaves around and usually takes the edge. Most Marths never really catch on and move away to avoid the Bairs and Hbox gets the edge for free. But what if you just moved back and then came in to swat him when he moved toward the edge?

If he's higher, then he goes high with that Nair trick he likes and usually burns a couple jumps doing it. Why not force those jumps out then just use whatever move you wanted to in order to hit him since you have control over Puff? It's not hard.

The thing that Puffs start doing at this point is panicking LOL. They're not used to being edgeguarded at all so they come into you more with Bairs etc and also airdodge more. The point is that you take away their safer options so they have to start being risky(they may also burn another jump or two in order to be "safer" but this pays dividends for you if you keep Puff airborne.)

Count the jumps, be patient but don't stay still all the time. Puff has this way of lulling most people into staying in place or lowering their momentum and that's what makes you lose. When you have puff offstage you need to remember that YOU are in control and she can't beat your sword. If more specifics are required I can give them but I suggest potentially watching the PPU Hbox(or other marth puff) set and see how you may have edgeguarded differently with this information.


Walling Puff out works pretty well and Nair can help with that, but keep in mind Mango also used more Fair/Nair/grounded approaches like dash attack then Hbox did so this didn't work on Hbox at all(watch M2K's Marth vs Hbox sometime and see him get Bair'd when he tries to Nair.) I don't actually like that match in SCC because it shows Mango learning how to deal with M2K's wall the whole time while M2K didn't punish(juggle/edgeguard) well out of so he didn't reap much of a reward for his very solid strategy. Ultimately, the punishment per read evened out and Mango won. Mango then proceeds to go on in the set and do even better iirc because he figured out so much during that match. You could also argue that M2K may have fallen apart more but we'll just chalk that sort of discussion up to "fighting games 101" and move on for now.

My solution to fighting Puff is more movement-based right now. Puff and Marth both zone heavily, so center stage control is incredibly valuable. Thing is, Marth also gets movement and moves to zone with while Puff only kinda gets movement(aerial) and mostly moves to zone with. This means Marth can control Puff just using his movement and some moves, leaving him free to counterattack Puff as he pleases. This knowledge will inevitably put pressure on the Puff's to approach(even if only slightly) and Marth can swat her then. I'll put it like this: Hbox was not very happy with me the one and only time we played this matchup lol. I don't blame him either it was likely very frustrating.

Simply put, all of that swinging of M2K's put him in bad lag and didn't abuse his other advantage over Jigglypuff at all. He did a great job of executing his strategy, but I am suggesting an improvement to it, at LEAST in terms of punishment. After all, PPU did very well vs Hbox playing like you and M2K would indicate.





Edit: Kadano, would you mind if I bothered you sometimes for various .gifs and hitbox information? You're extremely helpful =)

 

[Kadano]

Too bad this one and only time didn’t get recorded, haha. I’d love seeing your Marth wreck Puff.

Edit: Kadano, would you mind if I bothered you sometimes for various .gifs and hitbox information? You're extremely helpful =)

Not at all, actually I just started making hitbubble screenshots. Here is Marth’s nair vs Puff’s bair:

In this frame, bair just barely whiffs (if it had hit, Marth’s hitbubbles would have vanished and the educational value lost).
Puff can easily beat nair by simply going slightly above Marth. This is not the case with fair, which has a much better vertical coverage. However, stationary shdf aren’t safe either as Puff can dashattack Marth on his L-cancel lag. Only retreating fair and bair are somewhat safe.

 

[Deleted member]

nair: sucks vs ground control and air control. yet another reason to stop using it.

 

[Bones0]

I could have told you Puff's bair beats nair without checking Dolphin. rofl

 

[Xyzz]

But unlike you dolphin is scientific

(that's because, there are no buses in Gensokyo!)

 

[Kadano]

nair: sucks vs ground control

Indeed. AC nair can’t even hit a crouching Puff. So if she calls you on it, she can run up to you, crouch and get at least a free grab, jab or ftilt. If she is fast, she even gets a free rest (!) unless you’re drawing it back really far.

I could have told you Puff's bair beats nair without checking Dolphin. rofl

Seeing the hitbubbles of both moves’ relevant frames gives a much easier understanding than lengthy explanations.

 

[Bones0]

AC nair can at least nick a Puff as it's rising, and I feel like it would also hit on the way back down so long as they aren't already right on top of you (not that I would do it anyway 'cause of the whole top half of my body being exposed thing).

 

[Tarv]

Whelp, an application analysis by one of the best players in the game, visual evidence and confirmation by a few other respectable members of these boards. I could be wrong about Nairs... *rethinks life in general*

Thanks all. Might reply in more detail to PP's stuff later but maybe not. We'll see

 

[Kadano]

AC nair with earliest possible fastfall can be done on either the first, second or third frame after leaving the ground. I’ve settled for second here, but it works on the other two just as well, sadly.
I didn’t include hitlag frames. Made with Beneton Movie GIF and Faststone.

Edit: If Marth fades back his AC nair as far as possible while still not doing a backward (“JUMPB”) sh, he can still be hit by Rest. Only by doing a jumpb is his AC nair Rest-safe.

 

[Construct]

Can you elaborate on Marth's punishment game? Aside from the occasional f-air string and protracted damage-building edgeguard I have trouble hurting Puff very much once I get a hit in.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Nair's purpose in the neutral v Puff has nothing to do with actually hitting with it.

Nair ought to be used to manage minute spacing at the tip of Puff's bair range. Ken is the only one who uses it properly.

Since you activate nair so early in your jump frames it masks what type of jump and aerial movement you committed to. Its an alternative to dash back->dash forward shield stop that the kids love nowadays: its slightly slower (note: this isn't much of a problem v Puff), similarly deceptive, and lets you keep your ground moves upon landing.

God, I could write a ****ing book on the Marth-Puff matchup. What an amazing, amazing matchup. Ugh. So sexy.

[note: Ken overuses nair and swings improperly sometimes, but pay attention to when he does it correctly.]

 

[Xyzz]

If you ever write one, I'll read it :D

 

[BTmoney]

cool stuff

I feel bad asking you to do stuff lol but Q #1 is for you since you've done such a good job with this kind of stuff and I guess you or anyone could answer #2

1. can marth ledge dash with any amount of invincibility? I kinda of want to know exactly where he can be positionally and still have invincibility (i.e. how high in the air or how long into his WD)
(how exactly do you do what you're doing, by that I mean this framework and those skins, I want to get into doing AR stuff)

2. any merit to boost grab or whatever people call it with marth? he really freaking lunges. I was messing around with it and it looks good at least