Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[FourStar]

Ken is like the only person who really does it well. but that was back in a different metagame so yeah....

 

[Heero Yuy]

I suppose I can agree the move is mediocre overall, but what really made me wanna do it is when I saw a video of a Mew2King friendly where he spikes the opponent with the move offstage on the 3rd(?) slash. Probably isn't reliable at all in the long run, and besides it was just a friendly...

 

[CyberZixx]

It is third hit aimed downward and is exceptionally situational, to the point it may never be a good idea. It looks super stylish so I see the impulse to try for it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@H.Yuy:
Your window for the next sideB is after the slash has already taken place. With Brawl you would do it much sooner. So, just really delay before the next input.

Jigglypuff also falls slower than Falcon so you can actually react to her for longer. It also helps knowing Puffs don't(and shouldn't) fall into you without using at LEAST one/two jumps to try and slow you down lol. Burn your energy on the moves that matter.

At that position, I might just walk toward the edge but be ready to FH/DJ Uair. Or maybe I'd empty hop and react. Oh looked at it again, I would definitely get on the ground lol then do other stuff. Get that silliness above you. If you hit her once or twice she gets pretty easy to pseudo-combo and damage output skews in So, you choose to wait until she clearly has to get lower once you know a couple jumps have been burned? Well, that goes with saying how you go about wasting your time on the ground until that happens. DD or just stand there?

 

[BTmoney]

Ken is like the only person who really does it well. but that was back in a different metagame so yeah....

It's not a matter of doing it appropriately. He was asking how to do it in general and my advice is to just slow down and not mash anything.

Moving on from that Side B is pretty garbo unless you u follow up the first hit with a different move (utilt, grab etc.). I don't ever see why you should go beyond the first hit.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I do not think sideB1 actually combos into anything. Too many times I have gotten hit trying to sideB -> grab/utilt even at various percents ranging from like 30% to 170% and even seen people jump out plenty of times. SideB2Up (when it hits) seems to actually combo into other moves it seems. Oh, and SideB3Side has a huge knockback growth making it even more powerful than tipper fsmash at certain points. Its the 4th move that really has no purpose being used because if they haven't already DI'ed out by this point, the 3rd hit should have knocked them too far away for the 4th to connect.

 

[Mahie]

You can land SideB2 on fast fallers and then techchase them into upB at higher %s. It's actually quite useful. If they don't tech, you can also decide to immediately convert with SideB3 (or upB, still).

The window for each of the additional attacks is pretty large, by the way. Apart from SideB1 --> SideB2, you have a lot of leeway for imputting the attacks.

 

[Kadano]

Check the stickies first.
The frame data for the button presses is in there. Pressing B when it doesn’t trigger an attack closes the window. For example, on [1, Side](window 9-26), if you press B on frame 8, you can’t bring out the second slash at all.

 

[knightpraetor]

I could really use an explanation of how long you have to react to falco's side b. I have no real conception of how much time I actually have when the falco side b's from close by. I just know that realistically ftilting is far harder than jab so marth's don't typically do it in those situations, that jab seems to work but that the falco sometimes seem to get by marths in tournament. Can they clink it? can it magically miss?

I remember hearing about the mechanics once, and falco basically appears at three spots during the teleport. I think you have to put your hitbox in between the falco in the frame that he is crossing that area. what determines the direction the falco is sent?

 

[Kadano]

I could really use an explanation of how long you have to react to falco's side b. I have no real conception of how much time I actually have when the falco side b's from close by.

Well, a few pages ago I covered that situation. As you know that using side-B leaves you 12 frames to react, you simply need to look at the hitbox frames of other attacks and compare them to side-B’s startup.

I just know that realistically ftilting is far harder than jab so marth's don't typically do it in those situations, that jab seems to work but that the falco sometimes seem to get by marths in tournament. Can they clink it? can it magically miss?

Jab doesn’t cover all of spacies’ options, I explained that on the linked page as well. (By the way, I’m writing a reference guide right now so this stuff won’t be scattered among 20+ pages anymore)

I remember hearing about the mechanics once, and falco basically appears at three spots during the teleport. I think you have to put your hitbox in between the falco in the frame that he is crossing that area. what determines the direction the falco is sent?

Yeah, that’s true, although “teleporting” isn’t different from normal movement, just 10 times faster.
If you’re referring to whether Falco is sent left or right, it’s determined by comparing your and Falco’s SCDQ positions.

 

[BTmoney]

I do not think sideB1 actually combos into anything. Too many times I have gotten hit trying to sideB -> grab/utilt even at various percents ranging from like 30% to 170% and even seen people jump out plenty of times. SideB2Up (when it hits) seems to actually combo into other moves it seems. Oh, and SideB3Side has a huge knockback growth making it even more powerful than tipper fsmash at certain points. Its the 4th move that really has no purpose being used because if they haven't already DI'ed out by this point, the 3rd hit should have knocked them too far away for the 4th to connect.

Side B true combos into utilt versus floaties at a lot of percents but most importantly at percents where you can kill them. If it isn't a "true" combo then apparently it's not very easy to escape since every Marth player does it. That's a silly statement but from my own experience and from what I've seen it is a combo. I imagine it works at higher percents/situationally versus fast fallers.

The Dr. PP Side B->Grab is not a true combo but it's basically Marth's version of a jab->grab but with more range. Jab->grab is almost never a true combo on characters anyway.

 

[Bones0]

Using more than one hit of Sword Dance is fine as long as you hit confirm. It only starts to look super awful when you do it against shielding opponents other than Scar who will just shield grab you or attack OoS in between hits.

 

[Mahie]

Quite frankly, you might as well go with the second hit from the start as well. You're only supposed to use it as an alternative punish for grab, or for a trading tool against weak aerials sometimes (Falcon's Nair, for instance). In both of these cases, you can go right into SideB2.

I would advise against using it for pokes or spacing, unless your opponent is at a really high% and you're on low%, then maybe you can use it and get the better end of the trade that will inevitably occur.

 

[AustinRC]

I've been experimenting with side B against falco to prevent him from lasering. It's purdy good, the falco I'm playing against is also pretty clever/ good so it's somewhat legit.

 

[Mahie]

If you're at a range where you can sideB to prevent his lasering, can't you dash attack/grab as well?

I'm trying to picture it, but it feels like it's too close a range for Falco to laser. He shouldn't do that in the first place. Can you illustrate it or something?

 

[AustinRC]

Well it's while he's shielding. I'm just outside his sh oos aerial range. That or when he approaches with double lasers. Forward B after getting hit with the first one. To me it's helpful because it resets neutral while they are much closer to you so I don't have to work as hard to get close to him.

Edit* - Dash attack is REALLY risky imo. I'd prefer to not use it. : /

 

[Mahie]

Well I thought we talking about trying to react/predict their laser and hit them before it comes out. (Between the start of their jump and the actual laser). Dash attack is pretty good at that, but I too have been traumatized by that time when I was a noob and dash attack was my only move out of dash dancing. I try to never use it at all now.

I don't think you should be trying to poke someone in shield with moves as Marth, unless it's really late aerials, but sideB might be alright, especially if you're behind them and they're not Falcon.

That being said I love the sideB out of laser hitstun thing. I've been trying to always throw out something when I get hit by one lately, and you can get away with so much stuff I would never have thought possible. I might try SideBing too.

 

[AustinRC]

haha dangit. I have trouble explaining myself sometimes. Yes I mean reacting to his jump and forward B'ing him then as you said.

 

[Mahie]

Well I really do think dash attack/grab is better in that case, although sideB is admittedly way easier to properly imput/space then the other two.

That being said, I'm kinda talking out of my a** right now, since I would personally just crouch in front of their shield and get ready to powershield the laser/cover the rest some way or another.

Maybe sideB's fine in the end, I don't do that kind of situations much. I'll try to think about it next time.

 

[AustinRC]

Side B as they sh out of their shield works well against Falcon too. :D

 

[Kadano]

Using more than one hit of Sword Dance is fine as long as you hit confirm. It only starts to look super awful when you do it against shielding opponents other than Scar who will just shield grab you or attack OoS in between hits.

Falcon can bring his grab out earlier than Marth his DB2U¹, but if Marth is standing at least as far away from him as in the following picture, Falcon will whiff. If Falcon does shield SDI, Marth needs to stand a bit less close to him, of course.

As for oos attacks, all of Falcon’s aerials as well as his up-B have too much startup so they can’t hit Marth in time. I tested DB1 to DB2U. If Marth uses DB2S instead, Falcon can jump over the hitbox.

¹Up is a much better choice than neutral for several reasons:
1. Comes out two frames earlier, but can be canceled at frame 17 just like DB2S
2. Covers Falcon’s jump
3. Doesn’t extend Marth’s arm hurtbox towards Falcon’s grabrange

 

[AustinRC]

As for oos attacks, all of Falcon’s aerials as well as his up-B have too much startup so they can’t hit Marth in time. I tested side-B-1 to side-B-2↑. If Marth uses side-B-2→ instead, Falcon can jump over the hitbox.

 

[Mahie]

What happens if you go into SideB3Down from that situation?

Can you delay everything enough to cause shield decay to allow a for a stab with SideB3, SideB4 Down?

Also we should just start calling them Dancing Blade # Direction, like, DB3S or DB4U, it takes forever to write lol.

 

[Kadano]

What happens if you go into SideB3Down from that situation?

Falcon can easily jump above it. He can’t grab though.

Can you delay everything enough to cause shield decay to allow a for a stab with SideB3, SideB4 Down?

If you delay, you give Falcon better oos options. Also, Falcon can grab you out of DB3U and DB3S unless you’re spacing it really well. He only has a window of 1-3 frames for the grab, though.

Also we should just start calling them Dancing Blade # Direction, like, DB3S or DB4U, it takes forever to write lol.

Good idea, updated my previous post. Included more stuff too.

 

[Mahie]

Kadano you're the best thing to happen to this thread in a while.

I'll try to toy around with the DB pressure next time I get a chance to.

Can Falcon waveland into crouch, or shield release into crouch, or just get hit and retaliate ?
I'm wondering if it's actually worth it connecting with DB2U, or if you're better off landing it on their shield and baiting that grab+pressuring a bit.

 

[Bones0]

So basically DB's second hit, when directed upwards, is less likely to be grabbed? Neat. I may mess around with that. I find myself almost exclusively using the first hit or first three hits because ending on the second has always seemed so unsafe.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

SideB one time too many and roll behind will punish you. Otherwise, its fairly neutral set-up. I'd like to avoid SideB on shield.

 

[BTmoney]

may I ask what the second hit gets you?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

A set-up into the third hit. DI, percent, character, and hitbox you hit with depending.

The Up has more randomness due to varying base knockback while the side has less randomness in all hitboxes are the same (except angle).

 

[BTmoney]

I don't see why you would chose this option though. I don't think this has enough range or utility to turn down getting 4 inches closer and grabbing them.

Can you not easily DI out of DB? I'm not well acquainted with the move because I never use it but that seems to be the case.

So reading through this again, what is the point of this in all seriousness? What is this better than doing or when is this the best option? If falcon is shielding directly in front of you, grab him.

 

[Blood Falcon11]

When your opponent is on the ledge, is it better to be a wavedash length away from the edge or right up against the edge in shield?

 

[Kadano]

When your opponent is on the ledge, is it better to be a wavedash length away from the edge or right up against the edge in shield?

WD length away.

Regarding all other frame related questions: I’ll answer them in the next 24 hours if noone else does, I’ve been busy making this guide and need some rest.

 

[Xyzz]

WD length away.

Regarding all other frame related questions: I’ll answer them in the next 24 hours if noone else does, I’ve been busy making this guide and need some rest.

I love you.

Wait, I meant to say "i sorta kinda don't dislike you that much" :D

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

How does one deal with getting back on the stage if there's a Marth CC dtilting you in the face/ankles. Can you fit in a WD OoS > Grab between hits?

Been experimenting with side-b away from the stage into rising dair to get back on, but it seems generally terrible and unsafe.

 

[soma ghost]

I use DB to stuff aerial approaches against falcon mostly but sometimes fox too.
Most opponents will ff into shield when hit. So I will do a dash away and pivot tipper. This almost always catches them coming out of their shield.
Then the next time they will be expecting the fsmash and just stay in shield or roll, so I do a quick DD and grab.
This actually works really well. I'd like to see higher level players try implementing it.

 

[soma ghost]

Pivot tipper is amazing

 

[AustinRC]

I'm Arc and I approve the above message.

 

[Mahie]

Ado, the issue with grabbing Falcon directly is that it is a gamble and you could lose it. Marth is a character that has nothing guaranteed out of the neutral game. Anything and everything you do is just a trigger for a series of event that will eventually give you the advantage, but you can't do anything guaranteed per se. The goal with Marth is just to send out such invitations without losing ground, until eventually your opponents tumbles into the chain reaction and only then can you safely punish them.

That's at least the theory vs Fastfallers, you do that, and then you deal as much damage as you can, optimally you death touch them like Armada does with Peach, pretty much. Move around, use some frametraps (namely dtilt), dodge by a hairbreath, then ****.

What Kadano found, however, is an option that allows you to be proactive. These are really scarce as Marth and frankly, even if it's not useful, it's always good to take. Show to your opponent you can sometimes act first and not only play the pseudo-agressive game that Marth excels at.

That being said, I've tried experimenting with some DB pressure vFalcon today, with no real success. I need to figure out a set-up that eventually leads into that spacing and allows for the DB poke/frametrap. I think that's the most interesting part about it by the way, the fact that you lose nothing, but your opponent could possibly whiff his grab if he attempts one.

Pivot tipper is amazing by the way. I love techchasing with DD into reactionary tipper if they don't tech, for instance. Such a good feel.


tl;dr : Any new option that can be summed up as "Either win something or lose nothing" is a good option. And Pivot Fsmash is ****ing great.

 

[Kadano]

Can Falcon waveland into crouch, or shield release into crouch, or just get hit and retaliate ?

It’s too complicated to give a simple answer. Basically, Falcon can waveland on spot and escape below DB2U by doing so. DB2S would hit him, of course. Also, at low % Falcon doesn’t even need to get into crouching animation to get a frame advantage, holding the control stick down is enough to land free jabs before Marth can bring the next hitbox out.
The only way Falcon can’t do anything dangerous is if you space DB as far away from him as possible. He can’t grab through your DB2S that way. On the downside, he is out of DB2U range.

I'm wondering if it's actually worth it connecting with DB2U, or if you're better off landing it on their shield and baiting that grab+pressuring a bit.

I don’t think it should be used as the standard DB1 followup, but it’s definitely good to mix in. I don’t think any Falcons will react to it with a wavedash on spot if they aren’t expecting it.

DB1 is a good tool against aerial approaches and for exerting a low committal (sorta¹) pseudo-pressure on Falcon. If you do it against his shield and stop after DB1, he can nair and knee (strong hit) you even if you are very far away from him. By using DB2U afterwards, you can catch these oos attempts.

¹There are many valid counters he has against every DB attack, but none of them cover all your options, and he doesn’t get to choose. You do. Mahie described this really well. By varying in your DB rhythms, you make it very hard for Falcon to do something oos without risking to get hit.

@Ado recommending grabs: Falcon can sidestep a grab he sees coming and punish you. He won’t be punishing you from a sidestep he does during a DB cycle, haha. Also, like I wrote above, Falcon can knee you if you only do DB1. That alone should be argument enough to use DB2U at least sometimes.

This post is pretty unorganized … sorry.

 

[Blood Falcon11]

Been experimenting with side-b away from the stage into rising dair to get back on, but it seems generally terrible and unsafe.

If your opponent doesn't have that quick of a reaction time then it will probably work the first time, but after that, when your opponent sees that side-B off the stage, they'll know to either shield and punish or wavedash away and f-smash.