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Deleted member
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shout-outs to tai for playing like a total man in every video from like the last 2 months. looks real good andrew, keep it up.
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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
PP, you said to usually keep your movement plans quick, and opt for simple mixups. Moving toward them is pressure, moving back is a bait. I often feel like my total dashdance range is sometimes inside of a persons attack range at any given moment, particularly the fast ones like Falcon and Fox. Usually I take to platforms to mitigate this (until recently, my movement has been a weak point of mine).
If I'm trying to space against someone using my dashdance/wavedash, I seem stuck in a certain area, and think can only move out of that area by either committing to a run in either direction, wavedashing, or slowly moving there with dashdances.
I don't think I'm fully grasping the viewpoint you're describing. Help?
If I'm trying to space against someone using my dashdance/wavedash, I seem stuck in a certain area, and think can only move out of that area by either committing to a run in either direction, wavedashing, or slowly moving there with dashdances.
I don't think I'm fully grasping the viewpoint you're describing. Help?
The idea is to START from a central place that is just outside of the enemy's biggest/most used attack range. From there, you begin to weave in and out of that range as you see fit with your offensive/defensive movements.
If that doesn't do it, then try moving your position with just your dash dance on your own and observe your results. See what it takes to shift position and work with your gameplan from there.
If that doesn't do it, then try moving your position with just your dash dance on your own and observe your results. See what it takes to shift position and work with your gameplan from there.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I agree with that, you better have wicked reaction time if you want to keep the entirety of your dash dance inside the range of their attacks.
Set up camp a bit further away so you don't have to commit to wavedash or run but do so as necessary
Set up camp a bit further away so you don't have to commit to wavedash or run but do so as necessary
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I'm not trying to have my dashdance inside of their range, but I think it is easy for a fast opponent to move forward slightly, causing my dashdance to be within their range. As in I start outside of their range, but as they move inward, I don't have a way to exit without going into full dash away, or wavedash. I guess what I should be doing is not letting them get that close, and punish their movement in.
This is one part me asking a question, and one part talking through a problem, that doesn't seem too complicated. . .
This is one part me asking a question, and one part talking through a problem, that doesn't seem too complicated. . .
When you consider effective range, you must also consider their dash. Get to a point where you CAN react and try to reduce that space over time.
Hitting them on movement in or tricking them into moving in then striking are pretty good, as well as moving back and keeping your space so you can keep drawing them in to you. It's a pretty general fighting game way to think but since this is a broad question that'll do lol.
Hitting them on movement in or tricking them into moving in then striking are pretty good, as well as moving back and keeping your space so you can keep drawing them in to you. It's a pretty general fighting game way to think but since this is a broad question that'll do lol.
I don't think I'm explaining this very well. If you condition your opponent to spot dodge or roll then you can hit with it (just two examples). Take Mango vs Hbox at EVO for example. At the end he starts jumping around Hbox then runs and starts charging upsmash WHILE Hbox was in shield. Hbox COULD have punished him and it wasn't a good play in neutral by itself however Mango made him afraid to stay in his shield for too long "with either pressure or grabs". Also if I had to play against a peach of armada's level I wouldn't want to let him live well into the 150% threshold until I could guarantee a kill. The longer my opponent is alive the longer there is a chance for them to pull off a come back.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
well honestly it would help to know if you're asking about Marth, yoshi, or falco =]
FrootLoop
Smash Lord
@AustinRC:
Things like Mango reading a roll with up smash are sub-optimal. He gave Hungrybox outs, worse is that those outs led to a free grab or attack on Mango. Hungrybox had winning options when better coverage could have prevented him from even being able to reset to neutral. His decision was incorrect even though he guessed right and it worked out. Just because you win 9/10 times isn't justification for throwing away the 10th one.
Just because it's Armada doesn't mean he can ignore the rules of of the game. In those long juggle situations the rules of the game state that she has no options to avoid damage endlessly until she dies. He can't guess right to get out, in fact he can't do anything to get out. This means that all the damage in the juggle is free and unblockable, and more importantly the situation doesn't change. Gravity still requires that peach will need to land, the only change is you have to wait longer for her to fall close again. The only hope peach has is that you will mess up. The damage doesn't make any difference except to ensure that she will eventually die. This type of play eliminates the "killing problem" since it's no longer an issue what % they die at. You should have more faith in your ability to execute perfectly than your ability to read your opponents mind perfectly. A main gain from this is you can eliminate more committal things from your neutral play like forward smash or dash attack because you render death just the same from grab.
Things like Mango reading a roll with up smash are sub-optimal. He gave Hungrybox outs, worse is that those outs led to a free grab or attack on Mango. Hungrybox had winning options when better coverage could have prevented him from even being able to reset to neutral. His decision was incorrect even though he guessed right and it worked out. Just because you win 9/10 times isn't justification for throwing away the 10th one.
Just because it's Armada doesn't mean he can ignore the rules of of the game. In those long juggle situations the rules of the game state that she has no options to avoid damage endlessly until she dies. He can't guess right to get out, in fact he can't do anything to get out. This means that all the damage in the juggle is free and unblockable, and more importantly the situation doesn't change. Gravity still requires that peach will need to land, the only change is you have to wait longer for her to fall close again. The only hope peach has is that you will mess up. The damage doesn't make any difference except to ensure that she will eventually die. This type of play eliminates the "killing problem" since it's no longer an issue what % they die at. You should have more faith in your ability to execute perfectly than your ability to read your opponents mind perfectly. A main gain from this is you can eliminate more committal things from your neutral play like forward smash or dash attack because you render death just the same from grab.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
thanks, man
stuff like this helps me want to stick with this char
out of curiosity, which vids are you talking about?
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
moonwalk, and when the moonwalk is almost over, dash forward and you'll stickywalk
Kadano
Magical Express
Moving backwards noticably with Marth by moonwalking is only possible by walking or wavedashing in the opposite direction before. There are two ways of best moonwalks:
1. Dash right for 1 frame and hold straight from the next frame on. This is only possible during the first frames of a dash and not out of a dash dance or a turn. This is because going straight right to straight left usually produces a turn, but on the first two frames turning is not possible (on frame 3, the turn is still not possible, but unlike 1 and 2, holding left will not cause a moonwalk but a turn on frame 4)
2. Dash right, then hold left/down for two frames, then move to straight left. This works out of a dash dance.
To do a stickywalk, you need to hold forward/down (315° if looking to the right) as late as possible during the initial dash. If you do it 1 frame too late, the window where you can continue the dash into a run is over and you will simply crouch. If you do it to early, you will lose some momentum.
I’m doing a TAS video with inputs visible right now, it’s pretty amazing what Marth can do with perfect stickywalk.
Edit: Here it is.
Deathconsciousness
Banned via Administration
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2013
- Messages
- 826
Dr. PeePee, how does it feel to be the only top-pro Melee Falco player worth anything these days?
Blood Falcon11
Smash Apprentice
Is there any use for sticky walking other than to look fancy?
Kadano
Magical Express
I would be really surprised if there was one.
Like a responsibility I need to live up to lol. It's something I need to take seriously so I leave a special mark on the game and also prove my ability to myself.
Niko45
Smash Master
Falco and Marth both underperformed at evo which is kind of interesting. There is such an incredibly low sample size in smash, tho, so it's not really worth reacting to. Over the course of the past few years their results have looked more consistent.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
PP, that was all I was wanting. When you dashdance, you move a good sized area, your dash range(1), but also move the average area you occupy(2)(midpoint). When you're saying moving forward to apply pressure, and moving back to bait, are you talking about each dash interaction applying pressure, then baiting(1)? Or are you referring to the average, gradual movement forward/backward(2)?
If it is (1) you're talking about, would you consider the bait to be pretty predictable? (You always dash away after you dash forward in a dashdance). What if, for example, you're doing a small, tight, dashdance right outside of their range, then do a long dash in, long dash out, before dashing tight again. would you consider the whole cycle a bait? (not trying to pull them into you, but trying to coax them into punishing your movement in) This seems like it requires extremely tight spacing and dashdances.
If it is (2), would you consider a gradual dashdance into their range, then a gradual dashdance out, as a viable bait? I feel like I'm stuck in the movement of the dashdance, and can't move back quickly enough after they respond to my dash forward.
Blacktician, I was talking very open-endedly. I'm trying to develop my movement for all of my characters. Yoshi of course being the end goal. I find if I practice a concept generally, then narrow it down toward Yoshi, it works out better. . . not sure why. Maybe my experience with Yoshi gives me tunnel vision?
If it is (1) you're talking about, would you consider the bait to be pretty predictable? (You always dash away after you dash forward in a dashdance). What if, for example, you're doing a small, tight, dashdance right outside of their range, then do a long dash in, long dash out, before dashing tight again. would you consider the whole cycle a bait? (not trying to pull them into you, but trying to coax them into punishing your movement in) This seems like it requires extremely tight spacing and dashdances.
If it is (2), would you consider a gradual dashdance into their range, then a gradual dashdance out, as a viable bait? I feel like I'm stuck in the movement of the dashdance, and can't move back quickly enough after they respond to my dash forward.
Blacktician, I was talking very open-endedly. I'm trying to develop my movement for all of my characters. Yoshi of course being the end goal. I find if I practice a concept generally, then narrow it down toward Yoshi, it works out better. . . not sure why. Maybe my experience with Yoshi gives me tunnel vision?
I can agree with it being sub-optimal from neutral. On an unrelated note saying that "Peach has no options to avoid damage endlessly until she dies." seems a bit over the top to me. If that were the case PP would have won that second set. (sry pp T.T) When peach is thrown up in the air it's a disadvantageous position for sure and her options aren't very good but she still has options such as float and air dodge. Once she burns through those options though you are correct she is basically a sitting duck and will most likely have to take a decent chunk of percent to try an attempted to grab the ledge or land on the stage. The thing is once you get peach in the air it becomes another mix up in which you have to read your opponents ****ty options to get more percent just because her options are bad doesn't mean she doesn't have any or that its free.
Are you talking about top 8, or....?
Marth should be doing so much better it kills me.
Alright I don't have a lot of time and won't be here much for a while, so I can only answer the first part of your Q(bring it back up when I'm back on like Monday and I got you.)
I'm referring to both. Your closeness to them in general is related to how far you go with each dash, but your overall closeness will affect them just like any dash length itself will affect them. The idea is to move your body with both. I wish I had more time to explain how each worked individually and together but I don't. I'd be wary of grouping them together for now.
Test out your ideas and see what you can come up with and that may make it easier than having me explain it.
Beat!
Smash Master
Alright, so I've been trying this out (mainly dtilt because I think that is going to be the most valuable asset, but also jab and the other tilts) during some practice sessions today, and while reaching an at least acceptable level of consistency seems to be completely feasible, I've also found some issues which need to be taken into consideration:
Ideally, you want to do pivot stop -> dtilt as one quick, "unified" motion, as it would be the fastest way of doing it. However, if you mess up the execution you'll do an unintentional dash attack instead***, and considering that even intentional dash attacks generally aren't particularly reliable in the neutral game, this means you have to reach near-perfect consistency with it unless you want to turn what is supposed to be low risk - low/med reward into high risk - low/med reward, which would sort of defeat the entire purpose of doing it.
One way to bypass this drawback is to wait for visual confirmation of the stop before you do the dtilt input. This alleviates the level of execution that's demanded of you and is obviously inherently better in situations where you're not actually sure you want to dtilt and want to keep your options as open as possible. However, it carries some disadvantages of its own:
1. The risk of messing up the pivot execution is still there, and while an unintentional empty dash towards your opponent is generally nowhere near as bad as an unintentional dash attack, it's still pretty damn undesirable against a competent player.
2. In situations where you're certain you actually want to pivot dtilt, there's really no way around the fact that this "loophole" (in lack of a better word) is just plain slower. While this may not necessarily be a big issue in some situations, I can't help but feel that it'll make the technique's area of use more niche than it has to be.
3. If you've taken the above into account but don't mind sacrificing some speed for easier execution and less severe consequenses for messing up, this entire technique may in fact be inferior to another alternative, namely WD down, which is extremely easy to be consistent with, and pretty much just as fast (try it out yourselves; it's surprisingly fast. Also, when I say it's just as fast, remember that I'm comparing to pivot stop -> *wait for visual confirmation*. You don't have to wait for visual confirmation with WD down since it's so easy to do.).
***This applies to pivot fsmash and ftilt as well, but pivot fsmash is much easier to be consistent with and is generally used more often in situations where an accidental dash attack isn't as big of a deal.
This post may seem a bit negative, but I'm actually feeling pretty optimistic about the whole thing overall. I just think that generally, prioritizing focus on the issues with newly found techniques and ideas is a good and efficient way of finding out if it even has a chance of being worth learning.
Keep in mind that these reflections are a result of just one day of playtesting (and by one day, I mean in the sense of thirty minutes here, thirty minutes there), so there's plenty of room for revision and new revelations.
MT_
Smash Ace
Yeah I actually pretty much agree with everything said here as I've playtested it a little (not very seriously though; and I haven't practiced the technique that much). There was a particular scenario I was thinking it would be great in, probably because I find myself having trouble dealing with this situation personally. It's when you have an opponent cornered at the ledge and you start dash dancing to bait a roll/WD OoS and give threat of run up grab (thinking about it, dash dance is probably not very good here lol so maybe I should reconsider that first); I find that at higher levels of play, my opponent will simply just remain and shield and not fall for the roll bait. Run up grab here is also quite risky as a way to enforce the threat of your dash dance; but if I could simply abruptly stop my dashdance facing my opponent, then all my options have opened up again and their shield has now decayed to some extent due to their waiting it out in shield. From here, d-tilt would be a great option. But the beauty of pivot stop is that you can ALSO do things that don't need visual confirmation, namely jab and jump (pivot nairs anyone?). (In addition, you also have ftilt, neutral B, but these are superfluous and I'm only mentioning them for sake of completion). You're right that WD down out of DD is good too though, but I feel that that gives your opponent a visual confirmation of you canceling your dash dance that they don't quite get if you just pivot stop.
Anyways this is just one situation that I wrote way too much about and don't even know if pivot stop is a good way to deal with it (dash dancing is questionable already as mentioned above), but I think there are things to be explored with pivot stop in several other situations. Pre-emptively setting up tech chase spacing with Fsmash against opponents that you hit onto platforms is one of the things that come to mind (walking is oftentimes too slow, and using wavedashes are not good for very precise spacings). I've been trying to use pivot stops in the neutral game but haven't had that much success yet, but I also haven't really put THAT much thought into it yet.
The more I type this out the more I feel that WD down simply might be better for utilizing dtilt, but I wanted to share the idea and see what others think/might come up with. Thanks for trying it out!
EDIT: Also, I think pivot stops are much easier to perform than regular pivot fsmashes or w/e, so I think that it's very realistic to become near 100% consistent with pivot stop, considering the high consistency that people can obtain with regular pivot attacks. Thus, the visual confirmation delay thing can be nullified completely with practice IMO (something I haven't really done yet). But also it's not necessarily ideal that you must dtilt ASAP; I think being able to choose a spacing abruptly out of a dash dance can be very powerful even without swinging your sword. I just need to explore/think on it more.
Beat!
Smash Master
No problem! I'm going to keep experimenting with it. I haven't given up on the "one unified motion" way of doing it yet.
And yes, I also think WD down may turn out to be the best option.
And yes, I also think WD down may turn out to be the best option.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Thanks PP, there is no hurry on the information. I can't really practice my spacing at the moment, I don't have anyone to play (unless I drive 4 hours round trip, and have to leave/come back the same day). Right now I'm just practicing movement, and I am practicing how I control my character, both the individual dashes, as well as the gradual movement, and want to develop a stronger understanding of what I'm doing.
Again, no hurry. If you have stuff to do, I can respect that.
Again, no hurry. If you have stuff to do, I can respect that.
SUNG666
Smash Ace
Pivot stops with 100% consistency is definitely possible. But the problem I would have with this is...how long would it last due to your controller? And also not all controllers can pivot. For years I have tried to pivot stop with my controller to no avail, then I greased my control stick I was able to finally do it with great consistency. I could pivot jab very easily and I could do pivot d tilts (not in one unified motion however). This only lasted for two days, after that I could never pivot stop again.
So I'm wondering whether it's worth mastering... Can the controller last? What if the motion you used to do it with didn't work because the controller randomly didn't register it and you didn't realize it in a match and assumed it was your own fault? I don't know the ins and outs of how the control stick works and what makes it easier for me to do pivot stops or what makes it easier for me to do reverse B moves in the air.
I'll still be doing pivot smashes and stuff cause they don't require the the control stick to be perfect in the way you want it to be though. Perhaps someone can come and tell me what people should do to make the control stick exactly how you would want it to be? Hmm
So I'm wondering whether it's worth mastering... Can the controller last? What if the motion you used to do it with didn't work because the controller randomly didn't register it and you didn't realize it in a match and assumed it was your own fault? I don't know the ins and outs of how the control stick works and what makes it easier for me to do pivot stops or what makes it easier for me to do reverse B moves in the air.
I'll still be doing pivot smashes and stuff cause they don't require the the control stick to be perfect in the way you want it to be though. Perhaps someone can come and tell me what people should do to make the control stick exactly how you would want it to be? Hmm
Niko45
Smash Master
I was referring to top 32. The more narrow the field the more you're talking about individual players and less about characters.
In any case all the info is fairly meaningless because it IS about players and, at most, the info shows a character's ability to one man wreck an entire colossal tournament. Which, unsurprisingly, Fox is really good at. That phrase they kept using on stream at evo was pretty fitting I thought - "Life's too short for bad matchups." Cause yea, if the marths keep running into sheiks, the peaches running into jiggs, the ICs running into peach etc, character results will look off.
FrootLoop
Smash Lord
Just because PP wins or doesn't win a set doesn't mean the strategy is flawed. Marth is crazy good in air-to-air and peach is slow and fat. Watching the set you can see points where PP overextends and armada gets under him. You can also see when marth can just outwait peach since while grounded his mobility and range still exceed peach's and he can wait forever while float only last so long. Airdodge through swings is coverable unless you extend too hard. As long as your coverage forces an up hit or up throw it's free damage. Marth may not even have to allow peach to grab ledge if she tries for it, but even so she can't do anything off the ledge anyway, she doesn't really get any options because of it.
With how you were explaining it it seemed as though it was an auto win. I think I'm starting to see what you're saying though. I'm sure that it's possible on the highest level of play however I haven't seen it and it seems like theory crafting to me. Closest I've seen is PP's so that's what I've been basing the matchup on lately. With what you've said and another person I've talked with I'll have to give this all a second thought and start playing around with it myself and maybe incorporate it more into my play. Thanks for providing me with a different perspective.
Beat!
Smash Master
This is an interesting point, which increases the appeal of WD down as an alternative even more. I suppose time will tell. I went from not having anything that even resembled consistency to a 50-60-ish% success rate over the course of a day, so I'm staying optimistic for the time being. Although I'll probably need to fix the fact that the entire left part of my upper body twitches notably every time I do the motion, lol.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
After playing around with pivots in friendlies today, I think the only thing I will actually use in serious matches is pivot grab. With shield stopping it's pretty easy to get near 100% consistency (I don't really use things I don't have at that point, because I really dislike matches being decided by technical flubs) and it feels really helpful for micro adjustments in spacing to evade approaches.
Beat!
Smash Master
Yeah, you should definitely use pivot grab. It's essential to the CG on spacies, and as you said, a great tool against bad approaches in general.
Shield stopping is amazing.
Although I'd highly recommend that you at least learn pivot fsmash as well. The Puff matchup (and to some extent other floaty matchups as well) becomes so much easier with it.
Shield stopping is amazing.
Although I'd highly recommend that you at least learn pivot fsmash as well. The Puff matchup (and to some extent other floaty matchups as well) becomes so much easier with it.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
How exactly do you do f smash pivots? (Yeah, I've seen Austin's amazing guide and everything... just curious which method you use 
)
also: against floaties I kinda always feel fine throwing them upwards and then wait for them to try to pass me on their way down and that seems to be working out quite fine... although killing people at like 60 from a throw > tipped fsmash combo sounds amazing
)also: against floaties I kinda always feel fine throwing them upwards and then wait for them to try to pass me on their way down and that seems to be working out quite fine... although killing people at like 60 from a throw > tipped fsmash combo sounds amazing
Beat!
Smash Master
I slam the control stick and the c-stick at (almost) the exact same time. Usually the control stick in one direction and the c-stick in the other, since that's the followup of fthrow -> dash forward.
Upthrow -> juggle is great against floaties in general. The problem with it against Puff is that she has such a ridiculous amount of room to work with due to her air mobility and having several jumps + pound. Juggling is still good against her, but the fact is that f/dthrow --> pivot stuff give you not only guaranteed followups; they give you guaranteed finishers. Even if you only learn pivot fsmash, you're still covering all kinds of DI except down and away up to about 100%, and "down and away" for fthrow is "down and towards" for dthrow, and vice versa. This along with the fact that it's very hard to perfectly DI an immediate throw on reaction every time means that you will land your (tipper) fsmash very often.
Upthrow -> juggle is great against floaties in general. The problem with it against Puff is that she has such a ridiculous amount of room to work with due to her air mobility and having several jumps + pound. Juggling is still good against her, but the fact is that f/dthrow --> pivot stuff give you not only guaranteed followups; they give you guaranteed finishers. Even if you only learn pivot fsmash, you're still covering all kinds of DI except down and away up to about 100%, and "down and away" for fthrow is "down and towards" for dthrow, and vice versa. This along with the fact that it's very hard to perfectly DI an immediate throw on reaction every time means that you will land your (tipper) fsmash very often.
Indeed. On YS, you can get kills at ridiculously low percents.
gencore
Smash Rookie
I have a question about grabs with marth. A friend of mine says that wavedash out of dashdance into grab is good, but I feel like just a normal dash would be faster. Are there applications for both of these techniques? When would a wavedash grab be useful as marth?
Beat!
Smash Master
Did your friend specify any particular situations where a wavedash grab out of dashdance would be better than a dashdance grab, or was he saying that it's a better choice in general? Because if it's the latter then I disagree, and if it's the former then I suppose it could be true, but off the top of my head I can't really think of any commonly seen situations where the wavedash would actually accomplish anything that a regular DD grab couldn't.
WD -> grab has its uses. For example, if you're shielding (for whatever reason), and you think/know that your opponent will overshoot an approach, you can WD back pre-emptively and grab them.
WD -> grab has its uses. For example, if you're shielding (for whatever reason), and you think/know that your opponent will overshoot an approach, you can WD back pre-emptively and grab them.
I treat pussy like weed cause I pass it around.
Iron Dragon
Smash Lord
I am forever going to quote that post in my sig, Kevin. Thank you for that.
~Twitch~
Smash Master
mow get off kevin's account
D
Deleted member
Guest
circumstantial evidence, that's all you got.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
smash is a stoner's game anyway
edit:
Just cause. Ignore those super miss-spaced fsmashes lmao (so basically the 1st stock). I was sort of using them just to see if they worked and if I'd actually get punished for it. My movement and that last combo was alright lol.
I don't know what to do with Falcon when you grab him a low percent so I started tech chasing lol at some point.
I also couldn't remember how to edge guard falcon at low percent, or at least the best thing you could do.
Every bad combo was pretty much related to a technical error and me messing up my IASA frames (like pushing fast fall too soon before uair ends).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl_I3UWnqeE&lc=aTil_sQxMghjAorz7wail5FVyTxrjzJ80SgA8VCkgAA
don't look at my Falco LOL if you can find it i wasn't warmed up at all that was my first match in like 3 weeks.
Marth's really fun though.
edit:
Just cause. Ignore those super miss-spaced fsmashes lmao (so basically the 1st stock). I was sort of using them just to see if they worked and if I'd actually get punished for it. My movement and that last combo was alright lol.
I don't know what to do with Falcon when you grab him a low percent so I started tech chasing lol at some point.
I also couldn't remember how to edge guard falcon at low percent, or at least the best thing you could do.
Every bad combo was pretty much related to a technical error and me messing up my IASA frames (like pushing fast fall too soon before uair ends).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl_I3UWnqeE&lc=aTil_sQxMghjAorz7wail5FVyTxrjzJ80SgA8VCkgAA
don't look at my Falco LOL if you can find it i wasn't warmed up at all that was my first match in like 3 weeks.
Marth's really fun though.