Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Deathconsciousness]

"OG Purp in this hoe, you don't even know."

-Mango

 

[Dr Peepee]

screw u max LMAO

 

[SwiftBass]

meh combo videos are soooo 2010.....

 

[BTmoney]

Marths, why not first game FoD or Yoshi's?

 

[AustinRC]

I personally don't care for FoD. I think it really messes with me personally. I'd like to hear other marth mains opinions on FoD though.

 

[Dr Peepee]

FD is easier to punish on? You can abuse dashing harder there or on PS? Spacies can't recover as easily on BF?

Heck some Marths used to like DL and it's probably because of the great movement game.

 

[MT_]

Frootloop told me I should stop striking to BF and instead strike to FoD instead. Traditionally I always strike FoD and DL (unless it's against Falcon, in which case I strike FD and DL) because I'm really comfortable on BF, but not so much on FoD. But the high top platform on BF which can't be reached by SH uair (you can hit people on the top platform of YS and FoD with very precise SH uair) make it so Marth is more vulnerable to being camped by the top platform, in addition to jumping to the top platform being a safer escape for opponents when they are cornered.

FoD sets up for janky fsmash tippers when the side platforms are low, and as far as I know the platforms are always in range of utilt (I think they only go about as high as DL platforms). However, when the platforms are too low I think it's bad for Marth who is so tall that he sticks half his body above the platform. At this point, it's harder to remain safe and poke opponents that you've thrown onto the platform because they can just hit you instead of being forced to jump away or the other standard escape-from-the-platform-that-Marth-is-under techniques.

I think FD is almost always the best stage for Marth (infinite juggles, CGs vs spacies), but everyone is going to strike it against you unless they're crazy. PS is also very good because of the lack of top platform and the huge moving space. I have mixed feelings about the transformations, but I feel that the ones that are bad for Marth can be camped/waited out usually. PS is a very good counterpick IMO for certain floaties like Sheik, Peach, Puff, where you have a ****load of room to DD with and they don't have a top platform to use to avoid juggles.

BF is tricky. Speaking from a completely objective point of view, the only thing that BF lends toward Marth is that opponents have some limited options in recovery. Spacies are an easy example (knowing they can't ride a wall eliminates more than half of the possible firefox/firebird angles from below the ledge). Sheik also suffers slightly in recovery. The fact that there is no wall also eliminates wall-jump shenanigans that people like to do. However, the slightly higher side platforms make fsmashes harder (but far more rewarding) to hit. The high top platform is also an issue as stated above.

YS is the best stage because using Randall is one of the most fun things to do in the game. Everyone needs to learn the timer because it's incredibly easy.

/2cents

Also screw you Frootloop.

 

[Niko45]

FD is easier to punish on? You can abuse dashing harder there or on PS? Spacies can't recover as easily on BF?

Heck some Marths used to like DL and it's probably because of the great movement game.

amen still love dreamland in tons of MUs (anything but attrition MUs and Falcon)

 

[BTmoney]

Well my point was to stop being okay with first game BF, your opponent can't stop you from playing on Yoshi's, FoD and FD.

BF:
I don't think Marth gains anything from this stage other than space animals BF'ing themselves and their recovery angles.

DL:
I don't like this for Marth, objectively. Personally I actually don't mind it since you get room to roam but the size of the stage can easily work against you. But how bad of a kill option is inevitability?

FoD:
http://youtu.be/Wl_I3UWnqeE?t=12s
Just watch from 12-17 seconds thats all you need to see.
When I DD grabbed that nair I pretty much new that he was going to land before the plat and not hit me since he wouldn't want to land on the platform. You can DD (safely except for the 1 frame where you turn around) and crouch under the platform.

The low platforms obstruct a lot of character's jump reliant shenanigans (nair approaching, falco's lasers if he's on the short side), good for you Marth doesn't jump in neutral (at least not nearly as much as Fox, Falco, and Falcon)

Then I think Marth is perfectly fine or good on the no plat/normal plat transformations.
I'm not saying this is some new-school mandate but I think FoD is better for Marth versus not Sheik (maybe peach) than battlefield

Yoshi's:
Marth's Story/platforms. Some spacies like this versus Marth but I've always thought of this as a good Marth stage.

FD:
everyone is going to ban this, obviously his best stage

And obviously (usually) you're not going to have first game PS. Although I do like this stage for Marth I love the set up.

 

[Niko45]

BF is super good for Marth in just about all MUs just a good balanced size where he can still tipper platforms but he has space to take advantage of his mobility. Blastzones are also reasonable which always always helps Marth. Most people won't give you YS and FoD is MU dependent.

 

[Purpletuce]

I always thought that striking was one of Marth's strengths, because he does well on FD BF and YS, people can't force him into a super neutral stage. I'm of course referencing mid-level play, where movement typically isn't developed too much. It is more about the recoveries and ability to trap onto platforms / Fsmash. At higher levels of play, players tend to not need the platforms as much, and since combos become more developed, and technical flubs more scarce, movement and neutral game tends to become more important.

I'd say for most players, the easier option is better, which is BF. (Mainly compared to PS/DL), and fountain has a similar scheme compared to YS and BF, but with randomness and shenanigans. The moving platforms, and the high ceiling seem to benefit floaties more often than marth, and spacies can capitalize off of shenanigans pretty often.

BF is just really solid IMO. . .

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I really never understood why its thought of that Marth doesn't do well on certain stages. Of the common ones and pokemon stadium, Marth can take advantage of all of them. The stages only ever become a problem if Marth gets hit in the first place.

 

[Niko45]

The thing about FoD is that certain characters also "get to be marth" on that stage, and by that I mean they get to hit people safely through platforms and this is really scary, some might say unnaturally good, on some characters. You don't want to fight sheik/peach here generally. FoD is an outlier stage imo, some MUs just get randomly different there.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

So, there is nothing really disadvantageous about the stages for Marth, but more what does the opponent gains on them.

 

[BTmoney]

Hmmm idk I see you marth minds viewing this thread so speak

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Hmmm idk I see you marth minds viewing this thread so speak

When someone posts something like this below...

screw u max LMAO

There isn't much more to say.

 

[FrootLoop]

Marth is good but since he's not an 'options' character some stages clearly help emphasize his talents more than other stages, which mean you have to outplay them less to win on those stages.

I think marth's bread and butter punish should be his extended juggles because of his amazing ground mobility and air-to-air/ground-to-air priority. You want to be on the stages that offer the opponent the least ways to make those strengths irrelevant.

DL is therefore marth's worst neutral since his ground/near-ground game doesn't cover everything as effectively. So, he either has to give the opponent escapes to a slightly playable position from the top platform or he has to try to cut that off with his air mobility which is worse than his ground mobility.

BF poses similar but slightly less extreme problems, so I think it is his second worst neutral in many matchups.

FD plays excellently to marth's strengths so it should be his best stage in nearly every matchup. Ice climbers may be even more helped by FD so that's the only one I would strike FD against.

YS/FoD are between DL/BF and FD as marth can somewhat stageguard the top platforms from a ground-oriented position. Some characters gain extra benefits from FoD and have a harder time converting BF top platform to ~neutral than spacies/falcon so I would strike FoD instead of BF against them (peach/sheik mostly).

Most marth's are addicted to up tilting spacies/falcon through BF side platforms so they go there instead of FoD, but I think the extended juggles are just as good if not better even if it takes a bit more attention so BF is then the obvious strike.

 

[gencore]

Did your friend specify any particular situations where a wavedash grab out of dashdance would be better than a dashdance grab, or was he saying that it's a better choice in general? Because if it's the latter then I disagree, and if it's the former then I suppose it could be true, but off the top of my head I can't really think of any commonly seen situations where the wavedash would actually accomplish anything that a regular DD grab couldn't.

He said WD grab was faster if the other player is in range of the WD.

 

[clowsui]

frank said everything i want to say

man frootloop has replaced me as the hidden marth guru :') not that i ever reached guru status but still

i'm so proud of you frank. now please stop losing in the midwest

 

[Niko45]

So, there is nothing really disadvantageous about the stages for Marth, but more what does the opponent gains on them.

I don't know about nothing disadvantageous but I would agree that I'm more worried about how the opposing character/player plays on the stage. I can up tilt people through platforms on any of the legal stages, that's not a reason why I pick a stage. It can be dangerous to play spacies on small stages. You're giving them more offensive potential and the ability to be in your face more easily. A Falco or Fox player who likes to rush you down will enjoy YS or FoD against you because you will have less counterplay to that style on those stages. I don't find myself struggling to kill spacies with Marth on any sized stage (for the most part, sometimes Fox be livin) so I'm more willing to take away their offense while (imo) sacrificing relatively less of my own.

Similarly, I'd rather fight a sheik on DL in many cases cuz DL spreads her out and makes her needle-fair platform game much less tight. Sheik is quick in bursts but on a really big stage she will at times be limited and you can take advantage of that there. It's up to you to decide if it's worth her living longer overall.

 

[Frame Perfect]

For years I have tried to pivot stop with my controller to no avail, then I greased my control stick I was able to finally do it with great consistency.

lmao that explains a lot about javi.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Fountain is better than BF in just about every matchup

I actually can't think of one where that is not the case

 

[Blistering Speed]

Sheik immediately springs to mind.

 

[Tarv]

I keep seeing people say that I need to start pivot grabbing fox at around 20% in the upthrow chain to avoid them shining out or jumping out. I'm not sure I understand why. I've heard that Marth's hitbox wont allow you to grab without pivot grab at that percent, and seems to be a pretty solidly accepted concept (start pivot grabbing at around 20%) but I never understood the mechanics of why this is necessary. As far as hitboxes/the mechanical factor of the moves go why do we start pivot grabbing at that percent?

Thanks

 

[Construct]

I've never really been a fan of FoD, the stage never really clicked for me. Falco and Falcon get these absurd combos through platforms that don't even make sense and sheik and peach can do disgusting things there too. It doesn't have the edgeguarding assistance or free uptilts that BF gives, and it lets other characters pretend to be Marth under a platform. Plus Marth sticks through the platforms half the time. I don't know, I'm just not really a fan. I'd love to be good there because then I'd be able to strike/ban other more situational stages, but right now I just hate that place

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Sheik immediately springs to mind.

v Sheik its

FD > Stadium >> FoD >> YS >>>> BF >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DL

In a bo3: ban DL, strike DL + BF, counterpick either Stadium or FD.
In a bo5: strike DL + BF, counterpick Stadium + FD

Sheik not having SH fair to deny dtilt approaches is pretty dope. And her needle game is mediocre there whereas its godlike on BF. Plus top platform/uthrow punishes are easier. Short stage lets you throw her off faster, though you have to be careful of walljump options. etc

 

[Xyzz]

I keep seeing people say that I need to start pivot grabbing fox at around 20% in the upthrow chain to avoid them shining out or jumping out. I'm not sure I understand why. I've heard that Marth's hitbox wont allow you to grab without pivot grab at that percent, and seems to be a pretty solidly accepted concept (start pivot grabbing at around 20%) but I never understood the mechanics of why this is necessary. As far as hitboxes/the mechanical factor of the moves go why do we start pivot grabbing at that percent?

Thanks

20% is just the point where Fox's hurt box doesn't end up in Marth when you up throw him. If you have a look at how upthrowing fox looks without DI, you'll notice the guy ends up going slightly behind you, and at 20% it ends up to be actually enough for your grab to miss. And simply turning around to grab won't help because you move the grab box too far in the other direction and fox will still end up behind it. So you need to move and put a grab hitbox where you just where standing, and how to do that is kinda obvious, haha.

 

[Tarv]

Ohh, I see I see. Makes sense to me. Thank you xyzz!

 

[AustinRC]

v Sheik its

FD > Stadium >> FoD >> YS >>>> BF >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DL

In a bo3: ban DL, strike DL + BF, counterpick either Stadium or FD.
In a bo5: strike DL + BF, counterpick Stadium + FD

Sheik not having SH fair to deny dtilt approaches is pretty dope. And her needle game is mediocre there whereas its godlike on BF. Plus top platform/uthrow punishes are easier. Short stage lets you throw her off faster, though you have to be careful of walljump options. etc

Never even thought of this. I've been using FoD against falco but that's actually pretty crazy. Might make it weird though if she camps on a platform, not as effective but still annoying probably. I'm gonna have to play around more with FoD now. ^^

 

[Kadano]

Xyzz already explained this, but maybe you’ll find this explanation I wrote a few weeks ago helpful too:

You’re neglecting one crucial fact: Marth’s horizontal grab range is less than infinite. At DamageFlyTop 38, Fox’ hurtbox has a low horizontal hurtbox extension that allows him to slip through both grab and turnaround grab. And not just at 38, at all frames at that %-DI combination.

 

[Tarv]

I still cant get over how helpful all of you are.

Thank you Kadano.

 

[Xyzz]

If you get answers by Kadano, you have the incredible advantage of getting pretty images instead of my horrible wordings :D

 

[Tarv]

Pretty pictures are nice but when you post I get the added advantage of seeing your incredibly cute avatar again.


Edit: I can't tell you guys how frustrated I was getting because I kept missing the upthrow chaingrab after 20% all just because I didn't know that I had to pivot. And now that I actually know why this is so much easier. Given, I don't have a human opponent to play against right now but I can actually chaingrab to that crucial 30% utilt percentage fairly regularly now. Yay

 

[knightpraetor]

i definitely prefer to strike to Fod and YS over BF vs falco. Vs fox it's a harder decision, so I don't really know. You shouldn't be striking Peach to FoD with marth in my opinion. I think marth's preferred stages change a lot based on the matchup.

Also, FD and PS are really good. I am starting to think I should counterpick spacies and floaties to stadium. They can't ban both. It's really hard to make these decisions though because space to run away is very valuable to marth, but preventing people from escaping to top platform is also very valuable. Personally as I've gotten better I find myself liking BF less and less as marth because the extra space to dashdance isn't nearly as valuable as making sure the fox/falco dies.

and vs sheik it's no contest for me at least...no escape means I combo them to death...having 3 cm of extra room in exchange for them shortening my combos or removing the finish just isn't worth it to me

marth does really well in the current stage ruleset. I honestly wouldn't have considered him a real character back in the corneria green green days, so I guess we have a lot to be thankful for

 

[Purpletuce]

PP, it is Monday. Any chance you have a bit of time to talk about the difference between the ultimate movement of dashdances, and the movement of each individual dash?

Also, I don't know where else to ask, so here seems good (Kadano is here, and lots of people know movement/pivots well). What are the tradeoffs of turning around using a wavedash compared to with a pivot? For example, if I wanted to move slightly in a direction (left/right), but then use a move facing the direction I came from, what is the difference (other than how I execute) between the options?

 

[Xyzz]

Pivot is faster, but you can go further with a WD.

Pretty pictures are nice but when you post I get the added advantage of seeing your incredibly cute avatar again.

Considering that an avatar is a picture as well, that means I automatically attach a good picture to each of my posts. That's pretty neat :D

 

[Kadano]

What are the tradeoffs of turning around using a wavedash compared to with a pivot? For example, if I wanted to move slightly in a direction (left/right), but then use a move facing the direction I came from, what is the difference (other than how I execute) between the options?

Pivot is faster, but you can go further with a WD.

But wait! There’s more.

When you pivot, Δx (horizontal momentum or whatever you want to call it, I use this term because it’s short and precise) is reset to zero the moment you turn. When you wavedash into a move, Δx decreases slowly by ground friction except if you do a B or ↑B (those reset Δx to 0 the frame they start). Thus, wavedashing will make you slide for a long time. Sometimes, this is good (for closing up to opponents far away quickly, dash into wavedash fsmash hits earlier than run-canceled fsmash, for example) and sometimes, this is bad (if you want to techchase with tipper, it’s pretty hard to choose the correct wavedash angle so you don’t slide too far. Pivoting is easier in that sense as you only need to do the motion right).

Out of a dashdance, pivot takes 1 frame, wavedash takes 14 until you are actionable.

In your example, pivot is superior.

 

[Purpletuce]

Some stuff I knew, a little I didn't. Let's say you're coming from standing still (dashdancing complicates things.) You need to do an initial dash before you do the pivot (giving you the horizontal movement), can you produce a range of frames that this would be at? (As in the total time it takes for a as-short-as-possible pivot before first actionable frame, as well as the longest possible pivot's time until first actionable frame) I think this would be more accurate way to compare their startup times.

 

[Kadano]

Some stuff I knew, a little I didn't. Let's say you're coming from standing still (dashdancing complicates things.) You need to do an initial dash before you do the pivot (giving you the horizontal movement), can you produce a range of frames that this would be at? (As in the total time it takes for a as-short-as-possible pivot before first actionable frame, as well as the longest possible pivot's time until first actionable frame) I think this would be more accurate way to compare their startup times.

The earliest frame of the dash you can turn on is frame 4. So, together with the turning frame, pivot from standing takes 5 frames.
If you hold the dash direction for more than 15 frames, dash translates into run, where pivot is not possible. If you return the stick to neutral on frame 15 or earlier, you will continue the dash animation. Total animation length is 27 frames. You can turn and thus pivot on all of this frames, and Δx hardly decreases during frames 16-27. So, the longest pivot duration is 27 frames (28, arguably; I personally don’t consider turning on frame 27 a pivot anymore).

Wavedash duration is still 14 frames, obviously.

 

[Xyzz]

The shortest pivot possible would obviously be not to dash into the other direction at all. Shortest in terms of start up, and shortest in terms of movement away from your opponent. Clinical example, sure...
Your "start up" really depends on how far you want to go.


well, Kadano wrote all that a lot better... stupid ninja