Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dart]

he did this to you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW0L1lvsrMw

 

[improbable]

I've only been playing competitively now for about 4 months, been to 4ish tourneys and my marth's been getting much better. My ground movement and grab game are very solid, I use to wavedash Fsmash way too much like every scrub but I've mostly kicked that habit. However, I practiced against a pretty good sheik a bunch the other day and it's come to my attention that my ledge game is terrible. I held my own the the stage but I just couldn't get my kills. I'm pretty good at gimping space animals from the stage and following them off with Fair/up b, but that simply doesn't work against sheik with her invincibility and easy sweetspotting. That leads to my question. I very rarely ledgestall/ledgehop aerials/ledgehop waveland so the muscle memory mostly isn't there, but when I do, I usually use back to drop off because the timing is easier. Is that ok? Or should I devote the time to develop the muscle memory to use down without killing myself? It seems a bit quicker, but does it really matter? Thanks.

 

[Ryuker]

I very rarely ledgestall/ledgehop aerials/ledgehop waveland so the muscle memory mostly isn't there, but when I do, I usually use back to drop off because the timing is easier. Is that ok? Or should I devote the time to develop the muscle memory to use down without killing myself? It seems a bit quicker, but does it really matter? Thanks.

I personally use down but you can have the same effect holding back. The stick has to travel further to jump forward though then when you hold down but it doesn't mean it's not possible. I've been able to jump higher holding back though. That's because I probably waste less frames before I start the jump.

So my advice would be try them both and use what works for you ^^

 

[Dark Sonic]

Back is actually the superior option if you can do it quickly enough. You don't drop as low and you don't have to come back up as high, meaning you're not wasting precious invincibility frames. It also makes a few unimportant things like ledgehopped neutral B->regrab easier.

But the invinciblity point still stands

Down is easier for most people to get up to speed though, and as a result most people use down. There's not any DRASTIC difference between the two, so no need to change your existing habits. You can let go of the ledge by c-sticking back if you really want to <_<.

 

[improbable]

Thanks for the quick responses guys, I guess I'll just stick with using back for ledgehops. My only concern is that it seems a lot better to plank with down so you fastfall, hop up to sweetspot faster and preserve those ever-so-precious invincibility frames. So establishing a rhythm planking with down, then switching it up to hit back when I want to ledgehop/waveland can be a little awkward, and possibly a minor tell if my opponenet is paying really close attention. However, if it's almost strictly better, there's no reason not to practice that way. Thanks again.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I use down when I want to fast fall.

I use back when I dont.

Ledgedrop fair with down and like ledgehop bair with back.

I plank with back because its easier to sweet spot off a jump.

I use down to fast fall and come up with and attack. down and under kinda things.

I use them differently for spacing purposes. not to mention you can also use down without fast falling and still have your invincibility options.

Find your calling.

 

[Roneblaster]

When is Dart gonna make his own marth thread?

 

[Dart]

When is Dart gonna make his own marth thread?

when i play well enough to deserve it, unless i can win money in a legit tournament i doubt i will.

 

[wiitubeaccount]

i'm used to fighting fast people but when i fight my brother(falco) who rolls, grabs, and smashes a lot i panic and sometimes lose. what should i do? he always rolls and shields my air attacks at the right time

 

[stelzig]

If he rolls so much i'd start looking for the rolls and simply run after them in a tech chase-ish manner.
Maybe wavedash back alot to bait one of those laggy smashes and punish them.

 

[ComboTurtle]

stelzzyyyy

 

[ChivalRuse]

i'm used to fighting fast people but when i fight my brother(falco) who rolls, grabs, and smashes a lot i panic and sometimes lose. what should i do? he always rolls and shields my air attacks at the right time

Oh man! That broken rolling and shielding.

 

[Hero 13]

what the hell do i do in a marth ditto.. i get banged everytime.
I have no idea what to do..
how to approach ?
how to combo him correctly with out him fairing me out of it ?
how to edge guard him so he never comes back !!! ?
and what do i do when im recovering..any tips ????

 

[Heart Break Kid]

what the hell do i do in a marth ditto.. i get banged everytime.
I have no idea what to do..
how to approach ?
how to combo him correctly with out him fairing me out of it ?
how to edge guard him so he never comes back !!! ?
and what do i do when im recovering..any tips ????

Go to te next no johns biweekly. Play me

 

[Hero 13]

hbk you going to four swords in CT ?

Edit: I'll try to make it to no johns; I need that marth practice :'/

 

[Niko45]

bi-weekly my ***

 

[Just Sexed]

bi-weekly my ***

Word If you wanna get better at marth dittos play them with a friend.

Stay on the ground a lot and dont DJ.

 

[I.B]

what the hell do i do in a marth ditto.. i get banged everytime.
I have no idea what to do..
how to approach ?
how to combo him correctly with out him fairing me out of it ?
how to edge guard him so he never comes back !!! ?
and what do i do when im recovering..any tips ????

• d-tilt is pretty ****ing safe
• dash attack/tip fsmash him when he's running away
• at low %'s CC grab Fairs and F-smash (or CC into F-smash if it'll send him close to/off stage)
• around 7-13%, try Up-throw u-tilt
  if it connects, combo
  if it doesn't connect, chase his DJ
• tip your fairs when comboing at low-mid % or else you're going to get F-aired back majority of the time
• when you miss a dash attack or d-tilt or another grounded move, hold down to CC his non-grab/d-air punish
• for edgeguarding, just time d-tilts, F-smashes, etc.
  proceed to edgehog. if/when he uses his DJ and attempts to recover over you, ledgehop N-air with invincibility to send him back off-stage
• when you're recovering, sweetspot, preserve your DJ, learn2tech->bair or airdodge onto stage, and *remember* only your first 2 or 3 forward B's help your recovery, doing anymore than that is actually bad. (they are "refreshed" whenever you touch ground)

hope that helps

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

• when you miss a dash attack or d-tilt or another grounded move, hold down to CC his non-grab/d-air punish
  

so when you hold down and you get hit when you're still in the animation from your attack instead of crouching can you still get the crouch cancel effect? I've wondered this for a while..

if that doesnt make sense i can explain better too lol

 

[ComboTurtle]

ofcourse you can, thats why vs like some **** sheik players i often get lazy and spam fsmash at low % take the dash attack or fair and just get a free grab. Ofcourse i wouldnt advise it all the time cause if you get grabbed you're done, but its sort've fun to **** around with and is very useful because you mayswell do it uncase they do a move you can cc so everytime u whiff an fsmash or dash attack you may aswell be holding down esp at low %

 

[I.B]

ofcourse you can, thats why vs like some **** sheik players i often get lazy and spam fsmash at low % take the dash attack or fair and just get a free grab. Ofcourse i wouldnt advise it all the time cause if you get grabbed you're done, but its sort've fun to **** around with and is very useful because you mayswell do it uncase they do a move you can cc so everytime u whiff an fsmash or dash attack you may aswell be holding down esp at low %

It's almost never worth the risk if it can equate to a grab for Sheik imo
Throwing out f-smashes (especially at low%) is pretty reckless/dumb and will get you crucified by competent Sheik players for it.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

ok really confused about the sheik matchup

I used to think you always upthrow to combo, but after watching Strawhat and other marths at pound i feel like forward/down throw -> techchase is way better. If im near the edge ill usually go for the downthrow -> gimp but other than that im confused.

thoughts?

 

[Niko45]

Strawhat seems to really love the fthrow/dthrow tech chases in general against lots of characters. Up throw is really good vs sheik tho, especially early on. Early she needs to either use her second jump or get up tilted, and then you can follow her now with an opportunity to follow up while she has no jump. Sheik also really sucks at getting back down.

You always worry about up throwing her and it turns out you've up air'd her to 120% and now you can't kill her, but I still find it better when you're not near a ledge.

 

[Tee ay eye]

(they are "refreshed" whenever you touch ground)

random note:

they aren't refreshed when you touch the ground with an aerial or perfectly (i.e. without any dust)

im not sure if standing/ledge attack/rolling from the edge recharges them

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth has to hard-turtle against a good Sheik.

Make sure it's darn impossible for her to get in and space everything perfectly.

Worry about her camping when she does it.

Or pick Jigglypuff/Fox/Falco.

 

[Europhoria]

[*]around 7-13%, try Up-throw u-tilt
if it connects, combo
if it doesn't connect, chase his DJ

Wait, what? Don't I always just forward b out of that when you throw me up

ok really confused about the sheik matchup

I used to think you always upthrow to combo, but after watching Strawhat and other marths at pound i feel like forward/down throw -> techchase is way better. If im near the edge ill usually go for the downthrow -> gimp but other than that im confused.

thoughts?

Most people will say it's even, and that Marth should just do up-throw juggles and play safe and it's ok. I wish that was the case. Against a Sheik at/above your skill level the best you can probably hope to break with them is like winning 1-2 out of every 5 matches. You should just go Fox, Falco or Puff (I know this is the Marth boards, but really that's better advice then anything I can tell you about the match up itself) However, if you actually have to do this...


Up-throw is monstrously inefficient. You can possibly rack lots of damage with up airs, but it doesn't apply any real pressure or lead to a scenario where you can kill Sheik (you'll get like a b-air at 120% optimally which won't even send her far enough to be off the edge unless the Sheik is bad or something). That assumes it's FD, if it's another stage the juggle will probably fail because of platforms... you might get 1-2 hits before she turns the tables on you? Despite what Niko says, she will get back down and then you die.

Even after a successful juggle you now have to get her off stage somehow and kill, but if you juggle them to that % nothing combos/works and you have to land an f-smash or some other garbage.

This doesn't make up throw bad, just do f-airs and try to push her off the stage from it instead of mindlessly juggling. Go directly to that part about getting her off stage and killing her while **** combos and still works rather then putting yourself in a scenario where you kinda have to get lucky every time.


Edit: ****it David >_> But yeah that's right. Camp her hard and it'll be ok until she camps you back, then you're pretty much screwed.

 

[stelzig]

It's almost never worth the risk if it can equate to a grab for Sheik imo

Comboturtle plays PAL though so if they grab it's not as bad as in NTSC.

 

[Niko45]

Yea you don't want to up air forever but up throw is still really good. If you manage to take her jump there's a decent chance you can move her off stage.

 

[KirbyKaze]

U-throw is fine against Sheik if you're not completely stupid about it. Your goal isn't to rack damage -- you're trying to keep control. There's nothing wrong with a 2-hit air combo if you can stalk her landing and punish it (while being safe).

She's more likely to get control back from being F/D-thrown because of her monster tech roll and invincible ledge waveland than she is from being comboed for 30% and launched. It's not efficient, but neither is F-throw because you almost have to guess because of her great tech options. At least comboing her is more consistent and preys on her crappy aerial mobility.

After 60 U-throw becomes completely worthless, so F/D-throw tech chase is pretty much required.

 

[Dynamism?]

What Kazy said wraps it up.

Uthrow is the best option to start, but it only goes so far and is best just to use that Uthrow set up to set up something else. Whether it's another grab, edgeguard, whatever.

Don't let Shiek have control and you're doing good, uthrow gives you a fair amount of options to control.

That's all it comes down to really. :\

 

[Cactuar]

Use more moves. Imo.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I learned everything about Marth's game vs Sheik from you, Cactus. And all you said was to do tipped Fair. And that camping Sheik ***** Marth.

 

[Cactuar]

Ya, I know evting about every matchup. Lolol.

Cactuar vs Forward Round 1 @ Evo East = "How to play vs Sheik w/ Marth 101"

Spam that fair, souljaboy.

Also Forward suicided hard. I have a history of lucky tournament wins. I actually suck at melee.

 

[KirbyKaze]

 

[Dynamism?]

Use more moves. Imo.

I like these simple words.

Shiek can't get inside a wall of sword, so spam it.
Makes soooo much sense.


LOL KK EVOLUTION

 

[wiitubeaccount]

what is shield di, how do you do it, and how is it useful?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

shield DI is smash DI (and ASDI) that you input during the hitlag on your shield. It lets you move a little closer or a little farther to respace.

If you SDI backwards from an aggro fox/falco shield pressure (non-spaced) you can shield grab and the shine will miss. You could also use the SDI forwards to grab someone who spaced something on your shield but out of grab range (sheik or samus, perhaps)

 

[wiitubeaccount]

cool that seems pretty useful thanks

 

[FireFly]

What do you do when a Fox gets aggressive and starts pressuring you? What are some options?

 

[Tee ay eye]

im not exactly sure what to do in marth dittos when you get cornered with spaced d-tilts

you can't really grab
if you roll, they can react and grab or forward B you (hm... i should try to take advantage of the forward B. in any case, they can grab)
if you try to fair out of shield, you might get hit
i guess you can try to counter, but that seems bad to rely on

then again, i guess not everything in smash is 50/50

is this just one of those bad situations where it's legitimately hard to get out?

hell, i'm pretty bad at marth dittos in general.... I should fix this *sends Taj a text message*