CF's tier issues<

[SmashBrother2008]

I've pulled this one out of an old, closed thread to support my arguement that Falcon is not the complete worst. Players view CF as the worst character now, and that will create a bad name for Captain Falcon throughout Brawl and maybe even Smash Bros. Riot (or whatever it will be called).
---------------------------------
Low Tier.

The question should be:
Why is CF the worst?

We only call him the worst because we (Us less manly character mainers) want him to be.

That's the way the cookie crumbles.






Oh and his only good match up is against Squirtle.
--------------------------------
This is what I mean. Yes, it's debatable but at least it gives us a sense of where he stands right now outside of his gameplay issues. Remember Melee's resurgence of Link?

 

[DoB04]

i dont know, its hard to knee squirtles... i say hes good against bowser...

 

[Tenki]

knee knee knee

most of my kills, and IMHO, Falcon mains' kills shouldn't be coming from knees anyway.

Not in Brawl.

 

[i.E.]

Melee's resurgence of Link?

Aniki was a god.
And that's it.

Germ had a good Link, but not on the same level as Aniki (imo).

Other than that though, Link wasn't a very good character. Wasn't bad, but he wasn't really good either. Also, falcon's image isn't "hurt"; if a new smash game comes out and he ***** again, people will be like "THE RETURN OF FALCON".

Falcon isn't low on the tier because people don't like him; People love Captain Falcon. He's low on the tier list because his basic properties as a character in this game (range, priority, a reliable, again reliable kill move, priority, priority, and oh yea....priority)....aren't as good as most of the other characters in the game. If you take into consideration a character with bad range and no priority (okay, not "no", but terrible), of course they aren't going to be very good.

He's still awesome, and the funnest character to play as in the game (IMO), it's just that when you break it down he has a lot of disadvantages, and that's what a tier list is based off of.

 

[Wogrim]

Huh?

If his only good matchup is against Squirtle, isn't that supporting him being bottom tier? I don't see you giving any reasons for him to not be the worst, so what's your point?

 

[<π]

Prove your mains worth with results, you can argue ideology and concepts all you want, but in the end it's what works in actual practice and the results you produce that have any weight on the mind of the whole community. If you really want to change how people see falcon go out there and show them what you are talking about instead of posting it in the falcon thread.

 

[Ayaz18]

smashbros.................

I have debated this topic with you time and time again, when will you understand?

Falcon is low tier because A)he has no priority in comparison to the rest of the cast, B) he has no reliable approach that is moderately safe, C) no combo ability, D) laggy attacks on both the start up and after lag of ground and aerial attacks (auto canceled aerials are worthless without the fast fall), E) can be gimped out of a recovery by anything, and finally F) because he has no special technique that can be used effectively in combat

everyone on these forums must realize that CF is crap, he's been nerfed from his knee to his taunt (both can't be spammed as much) so I suggest you and every one else who goes out saying "WTFOMGN00BZ FALCUN 4 TEH TOPZ TEIRS METAKGIGHT IF F*CKING CRAP TO FALCUN!!!!!" go and perform at a live tourny with somewhat respected players and try to live

and if you think he's only bad cause we think so, how come you have not contributed a single useful AT, combo, or for that matter thread? I think he's terrible but I figure **** out with him, I realize his problems and try to get around them, im a ****ing amazing Falcon player and can stand a chance against MK's, who seriously spam all day. To your logic my Falcon must be crap because I view him as crap, well my results prove otherwise because I trained with him for literally 100's of hours trying to figure out stuff and make him playable. So don't give us this bull**** that Falcon's good if you think he is, because it's not.......in fact it doesn't even matter what you think of him, you sound like a **** hippie with all this follow your heart crap. Also squirtle is not Falcon's best match-up, shell shifting is like squirtle's mortar slide, with twice the speed, and more strength, and it's impossible to hit him at all when he''s ducking

and stop making these god ****ed topics, it's reasons like this I moved to melee, the community still is competitive

 

[A2ZOMG]

I can't understand why Falcon's good matchup would be Squirtle. Honestly. Squirtle has several qualities Falcon does not like dealing with. He's a small target. He has a lot of priority. Lastly, he has insane grab range. Honestly I'd think this is one of Falcon's worst matchups.

But, he could very well be the worst character in the game. It's quite obvious that Falcon by far has the worst moveset in the entire game. What might save him is that he's not as super easily gimped as some other bad characters and running speed which allows him to punish whiffed attacks from a distance, but that's about it really.

 

[LouisLeGros]

I love Falcon, you might even be able to go as far as saying I have a man crush on him. He was declared the manliest character for a reason. Everything from the now defunct knee to the nipples of justice are oozing with military grade testosterone.

Ever since I landed my first Falcon punch I've been in love. I didn't care who I was playing against or that I could play other characters better, Captain Douglas Jay Falcon was always my favorite and will always have a place in my heart. However, we have to face that in Brawl he sucks and was nerfed in pretty much every way (including fun). Or we could just say it is actually Rick Wheeler and that poser needs to get replaced. Falcon is perpetually awesome, nothing can change that. As long as we can hear the echo of the perfect Falcon Punch we will still be there for him, but we have to face the realities of Brawl.

Now I must go pray to my Captain Falcon altar to hope for a brighter future.

 

[Miles.]

He will always and forever be top tier in manliness.

 

[<π]

Rick wheeler, what a horrible unimaginative name for a racer. It would explain a lot.

 

[Ayaz18]

I can't understand why Falcon's good matchup would be Squirtle. Honestly. Squirtle has several qualities Falcon does not like dealing with. He's a small target. He has a lot of priority. Lastly, he has insane grab range. Honestly I'd think this is one of Falcon's worst matchups.

But, he could very well be the worst character in the game. It's quite obvious that Falcon by far has the worst moveset in the entire game. What might save him is that he's not as super easily gimped as some other bad characters and running speed which allows him to punish whiffed attacks from a distance, but that's about it really.

exactly, this kids a freaking Falcon fanboy he just want's us all to say that Falcon is awesome

 

[LouisLeGros]

exactly, this kids a freaking Falcon fanboy he just want's us all to say that Falcon is awesome

Just because I have a Captain Falcon altar doesn't make me a fanboy, he is just that worthy of being worshiped. Also, I think my last post explain why he is awesome, tier lists and nerfs will never change his awesomeness.
I know you were referring to SmashBrother2008, just having some fun.

 

[Roager]

OK, I'm not trying to piss all over what Ayaz was saying, but if we look at the character discussions that the Back Room's been doing, we see them list off a bunch of things Falcon has going for him, and then declare him crap. As for Bowser, they list off all the things that are bad about him, and then say that all these disadvantages are actually an advantage to Bowser. Whether or not Falcon deserves low/bottom tier status is not my point. My point is, people ARE trying to force him there. See for yourself. I'd use Sonic as an example, but they haven't done him. So I'll use Bowser and Samus.

Synopsis:

There was a significant lack of discussion in this thread because there wasn't much to debate. The long and short of it is simply thus: Captain Falcon is bad. Manly, but bad.

His aerials all are great for racking damage (even the weak knee, which combos into other things), his jab gives him shine-esque interrupt ability, his u-smash does a large amount of damage, and his other smashes KO. Falcon even has a dair to knee combo on the entire cast! Since his up+b doesn't give the opponent their 2nd jump back anymore, it can be a viscious, albeit risky, edgeguarding tool

However, his aerials don't combo into one another very well due to the lack of hitstun and his smashes are very difficult to land. The knee, his only reliable kill move in the air, is difficult to land on a moving opponent. His recovery, while better than in Melee, is still easily gimped. While Falcon isn't light by any means, his weight does little to help him because of this easily gimped recovery.

Falcon is bad. Low tier easily, and takes a tremendous amount of skill to use at a high level of play. It is POSSIBLE to continually abuse what little strengths Falcon has to win a match... but it is unlikely, especially since Falcon does so poorly against the most prominent tournament characters such as Metaknight, Snake, and ROB.

Bowser is a character of extremes. He basically runs hot and cold. His advantages, such as his heavy weight, excellent out of shield options, grab release options, and his multitude of KO moves, are all very prominent. Unfortunately, his weaknesses, his large size (making him easy to combo and hit), laggy attacks, lack of options in many circumstances, and poor vertical recovery are just as obvious.

Bowser will never be the powerhouse that a player can simply pick up and destroy the opposition with, but if a player dedicates himself to this character and gets around his weaknesses it is highly likely that they can make significant marks on the tournament scene. The fact that Bowser has so many obvious weaknesses may actually be a boon to him; there are few serious Bowser mains in existence, so if you happen to run up against one you are unlikely to have experience fighting them... while they will almost certainly have experience fighting your character.

Originally Posted by Overswarm View Post
Summary:


Samus is a unique character with a lot of depth. She is much more difficult to use than the majority of characters in this game, and as such has a much harder time in tournament play. Consistency troubles aside, she is a solid character that is held above water by her natural strengths: a heavy weight, good air mobility, a strong aerial game, a strong combo game, an excellent recovery, and a good projectile game.

While Samus excels in many areas, she lacks in killing power. Many of her kill moves are slow to come out, require charging, or are very easy to see coming; it isn't often that you see a Samus player hop towards you with her back facing you, and when she does you know a bair is coming.

It is likely that Samus' issue of killing power will become less prominent over time; her aerials all auto-cancel, allowing her to short hop an aerial into an opponent, land, and then immediately f-smash or d-tilt to attempt a KO. She also has a great setup from her grab release to do large amounts of damage or potentially get off a KO move.

Samus also has the ability to turn into Zamus mid-game by using the d-pad; while this will more than likely not be a prominent feature to her gameplay, it is possible that Samus could switch into ZSS to use the items as KO capable attacks late in the game.

Regardless of your personal feelings, you have to admit: Falcon's the ONLY character to be flat-out called bad. And, considering that Falcon CAN play well against most other characters, he really doesn't deserve that much hate.

 

[Wogrim]

I'm a Falcon fanboy... and Show Me Ya Moves spams reasonably fast when you're facing left I don't see the problem with it. And Falcon I think generally needs tactics not techniques... unless you call double hit on DSmash a technique. I get 31% with one DSmash in one of my vids... it's nuts. I'll explain it a bit more in "Epic Footage 3", but basically DSmash kicks *** if you can place it right. Obviously many of you know that DSmash can double hit, but knowing how to place it is important, and I don't think anyone's really realized how much damage it actually does.

 

[Red Alloy]

I can't understand why Falcon's good matchup would be Squirtle. Honestly. Squirtle has several qualities Falcon does not like dealing with. He's a small target. He has a lot of priority. Lastly, he has insane grab range. Honestly I'd think this is one of Falcon's worst matchups.

But, he could very well be the worst character in the game. It's quite obvious that Falcon by far has the worst moveset in the entire game. What might save him is that he's not as super easily gimped as some other bad characters and running speed which allows him to punish whiffed attacks from a distance, but that's about it really.

I wouldn't say he has a bad moveset. It worked just fine in Melee. Given the physics, however, that's another story.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Resurgence of Link??? I thought people thought Link was good, then realized he wasn't, then realized Peach was awesome.

What about a resurgence of Peach?

 

[Ville]

Hmpf, I wonder why many people consider the Knee as "bad" now :O
For me its still an insane aerial, hard to hit, but killing and ridicolously low percentages and having a great damage.
Of course, he's just so ****ing much worse than in Melee, no debate about that.
I say, playing Falcon is all about reading your opponent and just try to punish every mistake/move, be passive (well, that's why you suck donkey ***** vs all those nasty campers).
You also shoulnd't forget that his combination of speed and K.O. potential is like unique, even tho its not of such great use with this crap priority.
The only way to win is your enemy making a mistake, that's like the same in every game, and that's why you can beat every character even with CF, you just gotta be (impossibly) much better than your opponent.
You might lose many matches with the Captain, but it's always a pleasure to just Knee or PAUNCH the enemies and win some matches, no MK or Snake could replace this.

In the end everybody has some different opinion about falcon, but you can't change that he's just bad.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Huh?

If his only good matchup is against Squirtle, isn't that supporting him being bottom tier? I don't see you giving any reasons for him to not be the worst, so what's your point?

That middle section would be a quote from somebody else. I just didn't feel like making a quote box.

 

[<π]

OK, I'm not trying to piss all over what Ayaz was saying, but if we look at the character discussions that the Back Room's been doing, we see them list off a bunch of things Falcon has going for him, and then declare him crap. As for Bowser, they list off all the things that are bad about him, and then say that all these disadvantages are actually an advantage to Bowser. Whether or not Falcon deserves low/bottom tier status is not my point. My point is, people ARE trying to force him there. See for yourself. I'd use Sonic as an example, but they haven't done him. So I'll use Bowser and Samus.



[quotes]



Regardless of your personal feelings, you have to admit: Falcon's the ONLY character to be flat-out called bad. And, considering that Falcon CAN play well against most other characters, he really doesn't deserve that much hate.

I likes this post. We thought out.

Honestly I spent too much of melee trying to get people to realize the true potential of Pichu to really care at all about tier lists anymore.

But I just wanted to point out some the knee is far from C.Falc's only aerial kill move , all of his move spare nair will kill at resonable percentages fresh. Comboing obviously isn't his (or anyones) main point in this game, even if it was in melee, most C.Falc players I've seen have little issue with in that regard. his ground game jab and dtilt espeacially are very good. And like other people have said falcon is more about punishing small errors through his moves that close distance quickly than running in with a multitude of invincible approaches. The main problem is despite a very similar moveset falcon can't be played like melee falcon once people wrap thier heads around that we'll see a better falcon meta game over all, and less knees.

I don't know why I'm listing crap like this, oh yeah, so I can say. Who cares, teir lists aren't some 100% acurate-1 stop answer to all your smash needs, people make them and people are wrong all the time. Going back to what I said (and partially against it in this post) stop complaining start proving if you really want to see a miraculous change.

 

[Roager]

I likes this post. We thought out.

Honestly I spent too much of melee trying to get people to realize the true potential of Pichu to really care at all about tier lists anymore.

But I just wanted to point out some the knee is far from C.Falc's only aerial kill move , all of his move spare nair will kill at resonable percentages fresh. Comboing obviously isn't his (or anyones) main point in this game, even if it was in melee, most C.Falc players I've seen have little issue with in that regard. his ground game jab and dtilt espeacially are very good. And like other people have said falcon is more about punishing small errors through his moves that close distance quickly than running in with a multitude of invincible approaches. The main problem is despite a very similar moveset falcon can't be played like melee falcon once people wrap thier heads around that we'll see a better falcon meta game over all, and less knees.

I don't know why I'm listing crap like this, oh yeah, so I can say. Who cares, teir lists aren't some 100% acurate-1 stop answer to all your smash needs, people make them and people are wrong all the time. Going back to what I said (and partially against it in this post) stop complaining start proving if you really want to see a miraculous change.

Right now, I'm not good enough to prove that Falcon has massive potential. I'm working on it, but i'm not there. Someday, we'll see. My post was less to ***** and whine, more to raise awareness. People are criticizing Falcon a LOT, and I just used the SBR discussion as an example. Not to bash the SBR entirely, but these overviews show just how biased it gets. And yeah, sure, this is just one example, and using one source, it's somewhat expected to be biased. But the overviews mirror the community's thoughts pretty well.

And yeah, Tier lists aren't even close to 100% accurate. The problem is, too many people put too much trust in them. When they see a tier list, they immediately use that to form their opinion. And most of them will just take the tier list as fact. Or as close to fact as they'll find. When (not if. the SBR showed their perspective) Falcon gets put in low/bottom tier, more and more people will refuse to believe that he's anything but that.

Granted, there's more to the issue than that. The falcon community needs to work harder on metagame. It's true. We need more active members. If we can't work to make Falcon better, he'll never see the light of day.

Put simply, Falcon looks pretty much stuck. It's POSSIBLE, but hardly likely, that he'll be able to overcome the problem of community hate, especially when reinforced by tier lists and community apathy.

 

[Roihu]

Hmm... not really been here much, but why isn't Sonic considered crap?

 

[Rigor Mortis]

Look how far we have come with Captain falcon in brawl, we havent moved one bit. We seriously need to realize HE SUCKS, BAD. And start, i dont know but making a frigging thread everyday arguing he is not the worst or he isnt low tier doesnt help his game.

I know he sucks but you guys dont have to remind me of it every 10 mins.

 

[DMG]

What's more important to you: Allowing serious CF mains to have more pride when they beat a MK cause CF is at the bottom, or proving that CF isn't at the bottom? Think about it...

Captain Falcon DOES NOT have a problem with tiers; tiers have a problem with Captain Falcon.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

We just need more active players in the C Falcon community to help develope his game. And I'm seeing alot of poeple leave CF for some other main or go completely back to Melee. That doesn't help.

 

[Ayaz18]

What's more important to you: Allowing serious CF mains to have more pride when they beat a MK cause CF is at the bottom, or proving that CF isn't at the bottom? Think about it...

Captain Falcon DOES NOT have a problem with tiers; tiers have a problem with Captain Falcon.

k..............?

Look how far we have come with Captain falcon in brawl, we havent moved one bit. We seriously need to realize HE SUCKS, BAD. And start, i dont know but making a frigging thread everyday arguing he is not the worst or he isnt low tier doesnt help his game.

I know he sucks but you guys dont have to remind me of it every 10 mins.

my friend, welcome to my struggle

 

[i.E.]

We just need more active players in the C Falcon community to help develope his game. And I'm seeing alot of poeple leave CF for some other main or go completely back to Melee. That doesn't help.

The thing is, it's not that we aren't working on his game; I play this game everyday. I only use Falcon when I'm playing "for serious" (all my money matches are with falcon). I mess around with him though when im playing friendlies...I try to find new things. Wouldn't you say you do the same? Wouldn't others like wogrim say the same thing? Ayaz can attest that he tried new things/tactics/crazy stuff to see what the outcome would be.....

When i first picked up Falcon, I argued continuously with BananaTrooper and KeyKid, who kept telling me he was low tier, maybe bottom tier. Back then, i argued that Falcon could easily make mid tier. easily. Because I thought he was that good. But as I got better with falcon, learned how to play him better, even found out a few important things myself (Falcon's offensive uses of his Up B were mostly something i stumbled upon, with some help from keykid as well, and some more testing from Btrooper). But even after finding some techs with falcon, some pretty good gimps (up air sends opponents at an odd angle if you use it facing away from a recovering opponent, and bair off the ledge stage spikes; you all know this though), and learning that falcon has a pretty great pivot grab....all of this still doesn't make him a good character. It's still fairly hard to win with falcon...unless you're a godly talent like Champ, SS, RoyR....but even then, they could be good with any character they pick up, imo.

Basically what I'm saying is, we CAN win with falcon. We can take falcon to tournaments and we could start coming in first place (like champ recently did). We could all start doing really well with falcon if we put in a hell of a lot of practice. But you could do that with any character if you play this game enough, or you're talented enough, or you're smart enough and good at predicting.

Even with that said, that doesn't mean he'll rise up the tier list, or that he's a great character. Because he's not. He was programmed that way, put into the game with distinct disadvantages that can't be taken out of the game (save for some code/cheat device). But captain falcon has too many disadvantages to be considered a "great character" in this particular game, and no one can argue that.

That's just the way sakurai made him this time around.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Well said.

 

[Zanoske]

knee knee knee

most of my kills, and IMHO, Falcon mains' kills shouldn't be coming from knees anyway.

Not in Brawl.

His Bair works great as a kill besides the knee. Yet it isn't strong as the knee with the electrical pads of justice but, I get some good kills with the Bair.

 

[DKKountry]

Falcon's tactics overshadow his moveset. I don't deny that his moveset is weak, but he has excellent tactics and I'm a little tired of people tagging him as terrible. I'd rather be Falcon than Boozer but everyone wants to give Boozer the benefit of the doubt and just say that he has a learning curve. Well Falcon has a learning curve too, but that doesn't make him the worst character.

Disclaimer: IMHO

 

[Collective of Bears]

Falcon is more advanced in Brawl. It takes more strategy and mindgames to land the Knee or the PAWNCH. Is he worse in Brawl? Yes. Is he low tier in Brawl? Yes. Is he the worst character in the game? Not by a long shot. I say Falcon specialized in 2v2, but he can most definitely hold his own. I wouldn't be surprised if Falcon goes up in rank as the tier list progresses.

 

[epic of DE]

Yeah I would like to argue that Falcon isn't supposed to be that low on the tier list, but he really isn't a very good character in brawl. That being said many people tossed falcon aside and didn't bother to think on how they would fight falcon.

A decent comparison I could give is that Brawl Falcon is like Melee Pikachu. Since he wasn't as good as he was in the 64 version some people didn't even think of what to do if they fight one. I've used Falcon for a while and I can say that learning his moves isn't the hard part, it's trying to judge whether your opponent knows what falcon can do.

After all, I've beaten many a snake user that got lazy thinking that Falcon was going to be a joke to fight as I kneed him nearly a dozen times by the end of the match (and one for the win)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ That's a typical mistake of "not-so-good-players". thinking, that you've won a match already by default...that's just stupid. If he'd have really taken you serious, like he should, he'd won, unless he's lacking skill

 

[MyNameIsRyan]

Although he has been nerfed, i still use Captain Falcon as one of my mains. Lets hope that one day Captain Falcon will return and show his moves.

 

[ALiAsVee]

Yeah I would like to argue that Falcon isn't supposed to be that low on the tier list, but he really isn't a very good character in brawl. That being said many people tossed falcon aside and didn't bother to think on how they would fight falcon.

A decent comparison I could give is that Brawl Falcon is like Melee Pikachu. Since he wasn't as good as he was in the 64 version some people didn't even think of what to do if they fight one. I've used Falcon for a while and I can say that learning his moves isn't the hard part, it's trying to judge whether your opponent knows what falcon can do.

After all, I've beaten many a snake user that got lazy thinking that Falcon was going to be a joke to fight as I kneed him nearly a dozen times by the end of the match (and one for the win)

Because Falcon was made less of a character than in melee, most people don't have the patience to use him. In fact, i think that most veterans who got nerfed in brawl suffer from character usage because of this. Newcomers are "easier" to use as a whole, with some exceptions, which is most likely who someone new to brawl or someone who wasn't dedicated to a melee character would pick. Then, if there was a sequel to Brawl, the same cycle would persist. I am not saying its bad to use newcomers, i just think that they will always garner the most attention from the aforementioned demographic.

I have used Luigi since Smash 64, never gonna quit xD.

 

[Kneeslash]

I have to say that as muck as I love playing with captain falcon, I know he is not a top tier. He's just a fun character to play with.

THATS IT!

 

[chewyy]

I have to say that as muck as I love playing with captain falcon, I know he is not a top tier. He's just a fun character to play with.

THATS IT!

I agree. Falcon isn't top tier, he's FALCON TIER!!!

 

[i.E.]

The thing I'd like to see is A Doubles Tier List, like for teams. Most people i play with tend to think Falcon is a HELL of a lot better at Teams than he is singles, and I definitely agree. We all know he can rack up damage pretty quickly; it's KOing he has a little trouble with. Plus, landing the knee is a lot easier when two opponents are flying around the stage. My teammate even holds them sometimes and will say to me "I got him. Knee. Now".

My teammate uses DK, and at first he didn't want me using falcon in teams, but he likes it now; we've won the last two money matches we've played, one against a snake and a Zamus, another against an olimar and a metaknight.

I think falcon is good in teams...imo anyway.

 

[talkingbeatles]

I agree with i.E.
Falcon is awesome in teams. It's a hell of a lot easier to hit with the knee, and the punch as well. Falcon does best on the defensive, and with a partner like, R.O.B., Toon Link, Yoshi, Samus, Link, Snake, Pit... so on and so forth. Anybody with a good projectile attack to pressure the opponent into approaching.

 

[ChibiPichu]

Yes... We'll have a team tier list... and the team at the top... TEAM FALCONZ!!!
Composed of two Falcons, and the crumple all the rest!!! PAWNCHED TWICE IN THE SAME FRAME!!!

Though I like the idea...