chain grabbing cheap?

[bobson]

Okay, guys, put a hold on the Sirlin links for a moment. Consider for a moment that the OP wasn't playing in the Brawl World Tournament finals with a million billion dollars on the line where doing absolutely everything possible to win is not only legal, but expected. Consider that he and his opponent were playing to have fun. I know this concept is lost on a lot of you, but try to follow me here: excessively using a tactic which is easy to set up, impossible to escape on the majority of the cast until it's finished, does a lot of damage, and detracts from the fun your opponent is having is, in general, considered cheap. Yes, cheapness and honor don't exist in tournaments, but the majority of the people playing Brawl are not playing competitively, and you have to consider that before you dismiss others as worthless scrubs.

Personally, I don't mind it; I consider it as an obstacle to get around when playing against Falcos. Despite this, a lot of people are irritated by it, and it's best to try not to piss them off using it if you want to play with them more than once.

No, infinite chaingrabs that can't be escaped AND are so easy to set up that it becomes the only viable tactic = cheap. No chaingrab in Brawl meets both conditions.

King Dedede VS Donkey Kong.

 

[SmashChu]

It is cheap by all means. But if you're facing people like that, don't use it, if you're facing competitive players, you might as well.

QFT

I would say it would be fine if everyone could break out of it, but since some characters can't, then I just don't do it. The same goes for edgehog. Since tether recoveries can't come back, I just don't do it. However, I don't play competitively.

 

[~Peachy~]

If by "cheap" meaning easy to do, then yeah.
If you mean unfair, its not cheap.
But it is annoying.

That's basically my opinion of it in a nutshell. Thankyou.


This topic seems to be getting out of hand. Please take care not to let that happen.

 

[Crystanium]

but you have to admit that in certain scenarios, such gameplay can be seen as "cheap" and "unfair"

Do I? "Cheap" and "unfair" are non-existent in video games. They are subjective terms used by people who are being attacked by certain attacks. Just look at Pit. Most Pit players you come across will spam arrows, and a lot of people call that "spam" and use it in a pejorative sense. They'll say it's "cheap," even though the only button it takes to use is B.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

King Dedede VS Donkey Kong.

OK, I stand corrected. Nonetheless, that chaingrab still only applies to one specific matchup, so any Donkey Kong mainer simply has to have a good secondary to counter Dedede. Problem solved, no cheapness.

 

[UltraPuff]

Why don't we just turn all items on high if it's all about winning?


...all scrubness set aside, I don't play competitively so I hardly run into CGers. But the few times that I do I'll pick a character with good ranged attacks or a decent projectile to keep our distance.

 

[GofG]

Okay, guys, put a hold on the Sirlin links for a moment. Consider for a moment that the OP wasn't playing in the Brawl World Tournament finals with a million billion dollars on the line where doing absolutely everything possible to win is not only legal, but expected. Consider that he and his opponent were playing to have fun. I know this concept is lost on a lot of you, but try to follow me here: excessively using a tactic which is easy to set up, impossible to escape on the majority of the cast until it's finished, does a lot of damage, and detracts from the fun your opponent is having is, in general, considered cheap.

The Smash World Forums, more often known as Smashboards, is for the discussion of tournament level Smash. It is not for the discussion of playing smash with your friends with items on, 10 stock, on Hyrule Temple. We are going to automatically assume that you are talking about tournament-level smash if you are posting on this forum. This forum isn't nsider, this forum isn't gamefaqs, this forum isn't even ****ing MLG GameBattles. This is SWF.

 

[mluo2010]

Anyone that says "you should get more skillz and not get grabbed ONCE in the entire game" is flat out ********.

Funny, I thought I remembered Isai or Azen saying something along the lines of "don't get grabbed" or "don't get hit".

Of course there's no rule against chaingrabbing but if you're playing for fun with your friends, is it really worth it to win with chaingrabs every time? I mean, chaingrabs are an easy way to win but it seriously gets boring if that's the only thing that you do in a casual game. If you want to get better, it's not going to help you if you use the same tactics over and over that probably won't work in higher-level play.

That being said, it's still not an excuse to call chaingrabbing "cheap".

-The "z0mg iz glich" argument is BS. If the players found it that easily, the devs couldn't have missed it. Besides, chaingrabbing was found at E4All and Nintendo could have easily taken it out if they wanted to.

-Yes the Sirlin article is quoted in every argument about playing to win but it has a point. If you read the entire book (which I highly recommend) he talks about separating "playing to win" and "playing for fun". He's not going overboard. He's just saying that when it comes to competitive gaming, everything within the rules of the game goes.

 

[GofG]

The sirlin article is quoted as often as it is because Sirlin is the only person who (a) understands the Art of War (b) as it pertains to competitive gaming, and (c) has the language and writing skills to be able to write about what he understands coherently.

In other words, he is a god.

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

This forum isn't nsider, this forum isn't gamefaqs, this forum isn't even ****ing MLG GameBattles. This is SWF.

If you reworded that into a Sparta joke, I would sig that.
(In fact, I need your permission to sig one of your quotes from the 'Meta Knight should be banned' thread. You also hit on one of my all-time peevies, mindless opinion injection ≠ discussion.)

It has already been established that CG's are not cheap, and that your friend is a scrub. (he even used the word 'gay' in the context of stupid, which just further proves that your friend is a scrub)

 

[GofG]

If you reworded that for a Sparta joke, I would sig that.
(In fact, I need your permission to sig one of your quotes from the 'Meta Knight should be banned' thread. You hit on one of my all-time peevies, mindless opinion injection ≠ discussion.)

Please, sig anything I write (as I see you've already done.) :D

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

Please, sig anything I write (as I see you've already done.) :D

Yay, but just for the lulz, I'll modify it a tiny bit, to sound more of a Sparta joke. (which I will be finished in a couple of minutes...)

 

[GofG]

You bring the scrubby ideals of noobs, you insult our god Sirlin, you bring to our door the plague of GameFaqs and NSider, and you expect us to give you our attention? *chain throws*
This is cheap!!!
Cheap? THIS IS SWF!!!! *ken combos*

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

Tonight, we dine in Hell the GBD! (Wait, what's the difference?)

 

[RawrBoom]

The sirlin article is quoted as often as it is because Sirlin is the only person who (a) understands the Art of War (b) as it pertains to competitive gaming, and (c) has the language and writing skills to be able to write about what he understands coherently.

In other words, he is a god.

Shove your false gods up your ***.

Let's face it, the fact that chaingrabbing exists adds a huge disadvantage to most of the cast. Why the **** should I have to switch to another character because I can be gayed by so-and-so character? Whoever says that chaingrabbing isn't cheap is an idiot.

1) It takes no skill to do it (unless doing the IC cgs)
2) Not all characters can do it
3) It imbalances the game

We all believed that tier lists wouldn't exist in Brawl and that it would be completely balanced. But look where we are, we have chaingrabbers with some people saying it's cheap while others say it isn't. Seriously, the fact that just one move called chaingrabbing can really **** my character over makes it cheap. No, it's not a set of moves, but one move.

 

[GofG]

Shove your false gods up your ***.

Let's face it, the fact that chaingrabbing exists adds a huge disadvantage to most of the cast. Why the **** should I have to switch to another character because I can be gayed by so-and-so character? Whoever says that chaingrabbing isn't cheap is an idiot.

1) It takes no skill to do it (unless doing the IC cgs)
2) Not all characters can do it
3) It imbalances the game

We all believed that tier lists wouldn't exist in Brawl and that it would be completely balanced. But look where we are, we have chaingrabbers with some people saying it's cheap while others say it isn't. Seriously, the fact that just one move called chaingrabbing can really **** my character over makes it cheap. No, it's not a set of moves, but one move.

We all believed that tier lists wouldn't exist in Brawl and that it would be completely balanced.

tier lists wouldn't exist in Brawl

it would be completely balanced.

I'm confu- oh, march 2008.

 

[bobson]

The Smash World Forums, more often known as Smashboards, is for the discussion of tournament level Smash. It is not for the discussion of playing smash with your friends with items on, 10 stock, on Hyrule Temple. We are going to automatically assume that you are talking about tournament-level smash if you are posting on this forum. This forum isn't nsider, this forum isn't gamefaqs, this forum isn't even ****ing MLG GameBattles. This is SWF.

Funny, I could've sworn the title graphic up there said "The Largest Smash Bros. Community," not "The Largest Competitive Smash Bros. Community." If he had posted this in tactical discussion, assuming he meant tourney-level would be excused, but the majority of the posts in GBD don't relate to high-level play at all, and the OP makes it pretty obvious that he wasn't talking about playing in a tournament. Don't disregard context and then insult people on misinformed ideas.

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

Shove your false gods up your ***.

Not a good way to start a discussion...

Let's face it, the fact that chaingrabbing exists adds a huge disadvantage to most of the cast.

Camping and weapon spamming are probably more impacting in Brawl's metagame (sadly). Most CG's can be DI'd out of and most only work on low percentages (infinates are another story).

Whoever says that chaingrabbing isn't cheap is an idiot.

And so the flame war begins! Comments like this make me wish that I signed up 1 month earlier.

We all believed that tier lists wouldn't exist in Brawl and that it would be completely balanced.

I'm almost certain that not all of us believe that.

But look where we are, we have chaingrabbers with some people saying it's cheap while others say it isn't.

It is typically the inexperianced scrubs that call a certain move cheap (infinates aside).

 

[GofG]

Funny, I could've sworn the title graphic up there said "The Largest Smash Bros. Community," not "The Largest Competitive Smash Bros. Community." If he had posted this in tactical discussion, assuming he meant tourney-level would be excused, but the majority of the posts in GBD don't relate to high-level play at all, and the OP makes it pretty obvious that he wasn't talking about playing in a tournament. Don't disregard context and then insult people on misinformed ideas.

You didn't know that this was a competitive smash community because you joined in july 2008. Also, Gideon doesn't understand his creation anymore.

 

[Dumah]

Sirlin is the only person who (a) understands the Art of War

I understand the art of war just fine

Chain grabbing is a cheap tactic, it's just under infinites. I really don't see how it isn't. You can play the game to win, that's fine, but don't try to be all high and mighty when you do it to somebody and they call you cheap for it. It's cheap, and you use it. If you get annoyed at people calling it cheap, and calling you cheap for doing it, don't do it.

It is what it is folks.

 

[bobson]

You didn't know that this was a competitive smash community because you joined in july 2008. Also, Gideon doesn't understand his creation anymore.

Shit, I forgot my join date being later than yours invalidates all of my arguments. Sorry, I'll leave now.

 

[GofG]

It isn't cheap.

The concept of something being cheap doesn't exist to the videogame. All the videogame understands is who won and who lost, and that's all that matters in tournaments and in money matches and in any competitive gaming environment.

edit: bobson, no. You joined two months ago, and that is a valid reason as to why you don't understand this community, as opposed to people who have been here a year, or more. Your join date does not invalidate your arguments; your words and actions accomplish that on their own without any help.

 

[theONEjanitor]

This has probably been quoted here already, but I haven't read the thread.

"Cheap" is just a scrub's term for efficiency.
--KING

 

[GofG]

theONEjanitor! I played on you GB once. Hi! <3

That's an amazing quote and that's going in my sig quote rotation.

 

[Criosphinx]

I believe chain grabbing is cheap. One of my main complaints about the game is that there are characters who are largely dependent on such repetitive and demoralizing tactics ie. Dedede and Falco. There are other characters also that have CG's but dedede and falco being the main dangerous CGers.

A chain grab in brawl is by no means skillful either. It consists of a grab to just running forward and grabbing again therefore anyone can do it. When one plays DDD in a tournament, you know exactly what to expect from them - CG's to the edge of the stage to edgeguarding.

To make matters worse, most if not many of the characters in the game can't get out of CG's up to a certain percentage or just not at all! its just stupid that such an easy tactic must be incorporated to all different levels of the game from casual to competitive.

I hate to mention this but melee did not have easy tactics that can be spammed so easily. The truly usefull chaingrabs in melee were largely by ice climbers and marth. Ice climbers' chaingrabs in melee..... were very hard to do. You would not see any casual player doing desynced blizzard to nana dairs. Marth's uthrow CG was a bit easier but the opponent had a chance on every throw to di and try to fake his/her opponent out. Marth still had to read the opponent and run to their to get the grab all very quickly. Of course there were a few other chain grabs but they were mostly character vs character situations.

Ganondorf and Sheik both also had chaingrabs. They, as well as Marth, required precision reading of DI, but both were a key part of using them to the best of their ability.

 

[bobson]

in tournaments and in money matches and in any competitive gaming environment.

None of which the OP was talking about.

edit: bobson, no. You joined two months ago, and that is a valid reason as to why you don't understand this community, as opposed to people who have been here a year, or more. Your join date does not invalidate your arguments; your words and actions accomplish that on their own without any help.

I was lurking for at least half a year before joining; I know perfectly well that this community is mainly competitive. That doesn't give anyone the right to ignore the context of the post.

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

Reasoning with the GBD? My my, you are a brave soul. I think you deserve an invitation to a little something...

On topic: Competative gaming and the word 'cheap' don't mix. TheONEjanitor hit the nail on the head.

 

[RawrBoom]

Not a good way to start a discussion...

Camping and weapon spamming are probably more impacting in Brawl's metagame (sadly). Most CG's can be DI'd out of and most only work on low percentages (infinates are another story).
And so the flame war begins! Comments like this make me wish that I signed up 1 month earlier.

I'm almost certain that not all of us believe that.

It is typically the inexperianced scrubs that call a certain move cheap (infinates aside).

Oh please. Spamming? Please give me an example, because I've always been able to get around that with ANY character. But chaingrabbing? Welcome to an easy 35% if you get grabbed ONCE. Pit is doing well on the tier list, and impacting the metagame quite a bit at #14. LOL. D3 and Falco = A Rank. I wonder why? Yes, I'd LOVE to believe its because of the lasers and Waddledees, but sadly... no.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

 

[GofG]

Bobson, unfortunately the OP did not lurk for 6 months before joining. As such, he bothered to make a thread regarding the validity of chain throws, showing that he does not understand that this forum is for competitive smashers.

From the competitive standpoint, nothing is cheap. In casual play between two noobs who don't know anything? Maybe you could make an argument for the cheapness of a tactic or something, but honestly, chain throws aren't nearly as broken as many people make them out to be. A chain throw is what, 30%? Marth's fthrow to dancing blade is 25% easy, and that's a legitimate combo. No one should be complaining about chain throws, unless you want to say that something as simple as a combo is cheap. Where does it end? Even in casual play, some lines have to be drawn; chain throwing is on the fair side of this line.

Edit: D3 is A Rank because D3 is a good character. Bair spamming, well-placed aerials in general, waddledees, chain throwing... they all make up his game. He is not a one-issue candidate. Neither, for that matter, is falco. They are A Rank because they are decent characters.

 

[Foxy]

Oh please. Spamming? Please give me an example, because I've always been able to get around that with ANY character.

Namely any slow character (especially Ganon) versus Falco/Pit.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Doesn't matter, anything that is legal in competitive play and helps you win, should be sued, period.


And lol, it's not unavoidable, it's just a really punishing move. A cheap move needs to be really noobish, and almost unavoidable. I wouldn't even say Mk's nado is cheap, since it can be punished by things like Ike's fair, etc.

 

[smasher91613]

**** look at what i started lol

 

[| Big D |]

If I could just add my .02$

It seems to me that everyone has their own definition of what they label cheap. Some people beleive that everything is fair and it is up to the opponent to find away around it no matter what. Some people, as hard as it is to believe, find moves like Ike's Fsmash cheap and dismiss the arguments of being slow and predictable. Everyone in their minds thinks they are right. They have their logic they believe is sound and sticks with it. The bar is at a different height depending on what type of player you are.
Arguing isn't helping change anything besides the fact letting your frustrations go which you wouldn't have if we didn't argue in the first place. Don't get me wrong, debating on matters like tiers and matchups are diffeent for the fact that the same applies to everyone. This doesn't and should not be discussed further.

 

[GofG]

The problem with labeling things as cheap is that too often, when a pro goes up against a scrub, everything the pro does to beat the scrub, the scrub labels as cheap. Chain throw to uptilt spam to fsmash 0-death as marth? it's cheap, fine, so you back off and just fairspam. Oops, too cheap. What does it come down to? Spacing fsmashes? Nope, then you're just spamming fsmashes.

The reason the word "cheap" should never be used is because it's too much like the Bible; anyone can make it mean whatever they want it to mean.

 

[RawrBoom]

Namely any slow character (especially Ganon) versus Falco/Pit.

The spamming would be easy to get around. If you're patient, you could SMARTLY dodge and shield. You can get around it still. But with CGing, you're stuck getting grabbed.

 

[kainsword]

Would you like a list of every fighting game where there has been a tournament where someone won more than 500 dollars, with a tier list that EVERYONE AT LEAST AGREES EXISTS?

Here it is:

1. Akatsuki BLITZKAMPF -ARC/PC
2. Arcana Heart FULL/2 (not same game) -ARC/PS2
3. Breakers Revenge -ARC/NEO
4. Capcom vs. SNK -ARC/DC
5. Capcom vs. SNK 2 -ARC/DC/PS2
6. Dead Or Alive++ -ARC
7. Dead or Alive 2 Hardcore -ARC/DC/PS2
8. Dead or Alive 3.1 -XBX
9. Dead or Alive 4 -X360
10. Fatal Fury Special -ARC/NEO/PS2
11. Fist of the North Star (2005) -ARC/PS2
12. Garou: Mark of the Wolves -ARC/NEO/PS2
13. Guilty Gear X -ARC/DC/PS2
14. Guilty Gear XX #Reload -ARC/PS2
15. Guilty Gear XX -ARC/PS2
16. Guilty Gear XX Accent Core -ARC/PS2
17. Guilty Gear XX Slash -ARC/PS2
18. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure -ARC/DC (JPN)
19. Jojo's Venture -ARC/DC
20. King of Fighters '98: The Slugfest -ARC/NEO
21. King of Fighters 2002, The -ARC/NEO (WW)
22. King of Fighters Maximum Impact Regulation A -ARC/PS2 (EastAsia)
23. King of Fighters NeoWave -ARC/PS2/XBX
24. King of Fighters XI -ARC/PS2
25. Marvel vs. Capcom -ARC
26. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 -ARC/DC
27. Melty Blood: Act Cadenza ver.B -ARC/PC
28. Mortal Kombat 3 -ARC
29. Mortal Kombat Trilogy -N64/PC/PSX (Columbia, D.R.)
30. Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen! 4 -GCN
31. Naruto Shippuuden: Narutimate Accel 2 -PS2
32. Naruto Shippuuden Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX -Wii
33. Naruto Shippuuden Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX2 -Wii
34. NeoGeo Battle Coliseum -ARC/PS2
35. Real Bout Fatal Fury 2 -ARC/NEO/PS2
36. Samurai Shodown II -ARC/NEO
37. Samurai Shodown VI -ARC/PS2
38. Samurai Shodown V Special -ARC/NEO (EastAsia)
39. Senko No Ronde Rev. X -ARC/X360 (JPN)
40. Soul Calibur -ARC/DC
41. Soul Calibur 2-GCN/PS2/XBOX
42. Soul Calibur II -ARC/GCN/PS2/XBX
43. Soul Calibur III -PS2
44. Street Fighter Alpha 2 -ARC/PS2
45. Street Fighter Alpha 3 -ARC/PS2
46. Street Fighter II: Champion Edition -ARC
47. Street Fighter II: The World Warrior -ARC
48. Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike -ARC/PS2/XBX
49. Street Fighter III: New Generation -ARC/DC
50. Street Fighter III: Second Impact -ARC/DC
51. Street Fighter II Turbo: Hyper Fighting -ARC
52. Super Smash Bros. -N64
53. Super Smash Bros. Brawl -Wii
54. Super Smash Bros. Melee -GCN
55. Super Street Fighter II Turbo -ARC/DC
56. Tekken 3 -ARC/PSX
57. Tekken 4 -ARC/PS2
58. Tekken 5 -ARC/PS2
59. Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection -ARC/PS3
60. Tekken 6 -ARC (EastAsia)
61. Tekken Tag Tournament -ARC/PS2
62. Touhou Suimusou: Immaterial and Missing Power -PC (JPN)
63. Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 -ARC/X360
64. Vampire Hunter -ARC/PS2
65. Vampire Savior -ARC/PS2
66. Virtua Fighter 2 -ARC/PS2/SAT
67. Virtua Fighter 3 -ARC
68. Virtua Fighter 3tb -ARC/DC
69. Virtua Fighter 4 -ARC/PS2
70. Virtua Fighter 4 Final Tuned -ARC
71. Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution -ARC/PS2
72. Virtua Fighter 5 -ARC/PS3/XBX
73. World Heroes Perfect -ARC/NEO/PS2
74. X-Men vs. Street Fighter -ARC

This list is incomplete and was compiled from a list of all games, on SRK, with some basic research done by me.

ARE YOU SURE THAT TIER LISTS DON'T EXIST? DOES IT BOTHER YOU THAT SMASH IS THE ONLY COMPETITIVE SCENE THAT ARGUES OVER WHETHER TIER LISTS EXIST?

edit: oops, double post.

And why is Brawl, and more importantly Melee scratched out on that list?

with a tier list that EVERYONE AT LEAST AGREES EXISTS?

Is it because of that stipulation mentioned before the list? I had thought Melee players had already established a tier list that was agreed upon, while Brawl is still in stages of infancy that a concrete tier list is still subject to change over the coming years.

 

[Delta_BP26]

If I could just add my .02$

It seems to me that everyone has their own definition of what they label cheap. Some people beleive that everything is fair and it is up to the opponent to find away around it no matter what. Some people, as hard as it is to believe, find moves like Ike's Fsmash cheap and dismiss the arguments of being slow and predictable. Everyone in their minds thinks they are right. They have their logic they believe is sound and sticks with it. The bar is at a different height depending on what type of player you are.
Arguing isn't helping change anything besides the fact letting your frustrations go which you wouldn't have if we didn't argue in the first place. Don't get me wrong, debating on matters like tiers and matchups are diffeent for the fact that the same applies to everyone. This doesn't and should not be discussed further.

Q to the motha****ing FT. This is exactly what I've been wanting to say.

 

[Foxy]

The spamming would be easy to get around. If you're patient, you could SMARTLY dodge and shield. You can get around it still. But with CGing, you're stuck getting grabbed.

No.

Ganon has a ridiculously bad matchup against Falco, no matter how easy shielding/powershielding/rolldodging/jumping past is.

Why?

Because whenever Falco feels like it, he can run away and force you to shieldrun/rolldodge/jump past for 5-15 seconds just to reach him again (at which point you get ***** anyways).

I know because I and many others play Ganon for reals.

 

[Criosphinx]

The concept of "cheap" in and of itself is a fallacy if you take into account that; in a competitive format the morality of "right" and "wrong" are removed from the equation of "victory" and "loss"

Cheap, is, in and of itself, a word to be used amongst friendlies. It is slang, little more.

 

[GofG]

And why is Brawl, and more importantly Melee scratched out on that list?



Is it because of that stipulation mentioned before the list? I had thought Melee players had already established a tier list that was agreed upon, while Brawl is still in stages of infancy that a concrete tier list is still subject to change over the coming years.

No, you don't understand; that list isn't for games with tier lists that are agreed on. That list is for games where the MEMBERS AGREE THAT A TIER LIST EXISTS OF SOME SORT. There are scrubs in both melee and brawl who think that tier lists don't exist because it depends on the skill of the player; i.e. they don't understand what a tier list is.