Chainchoking

[humble]

So when this was first discovered, it was an amazingly promising tech that would allow ganondorf to essentially take a stock if mastered, but because of its insane difficulty it never caught on and no one could do it reliably enough.

Well I've come back to the ganon boards to see what advancements there have been since this was discovered- has anyone managed to get this down?

It would seem like if someone got good enough at this, ganon would be in the IC situation, of having a way to take off a stock off from one grab. Though ganon doesn't pull this off on everyone, he does on the majority of the cast, and it seems like this would have been advanced more. Has anyone gone full out trying to master this tech?

 

[Ganonsburg]

So when this was first discovered, it was an amazingly promising tech that would allow ganondorf to essentially take a stock if mastered, but because of its insane difficulty it never caught on and no one could do it reliably enough.

Well I've come back to the ganon boards to see what advancements there have been since this was discovered- has anyone managed to get this down?

It would seem like if someone got good enough at this, ganon would be in the IC situation, of having a way to take off a stock off from one grab. Though ganon doesn't pull this off on everyone, he does on the majority of the cast, and it seems like this would have been advanced more. Has anyone gone full out trying to master this tech?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: No.

Basically, it's really only necessary to go 5 or 6 Gerudos long, as I think it was stated earlier in the thread. If you can read what they're going to do anyway, you get the 5 or 6 Gerudos, the person's at at least 60 or 70 percent now (if you started at 0%, which you probably didn't), and then you get an Fsmash on them for the (likely) KO.

 

[humble]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: No.

Basically, it's really only necessary to go 5 or 6 Gerudos long, as I think it was stated earlier in the thread. If you can read what they're going to do anyway, you get the 5 or 6 Gerudos, the person's at at least 60 or 70 percent now (if you started at 0%, which you probably didn't), and then you get an Fsmash on them for the (likely) KO.

I dunno, I just feel like if someone mastered this, ganon would have alot more potential. I mean, a guarenteed kill off gerudo? Its not easy to land, but it happens frequently enough, and when it means a kill, it means serious mindgames on your opponent. ICs whole game revolves around landing a grab because of how insanely great the reward is for doing so. So even though mastering all the ICs CGs are tough, a few expert ICs did it, and ICs got a huge reputation for it. Ganon has a lot harder time with chainchoking, but still, if one of you great ganons focused solely on mastering this tech, the reward might greatly outweigh the cost. I think it should become a priority for ganons; it's a tech with potential to greatly increase his metagame potential.

 

[Dumbfire]

They shouldn't focus only on the Chainchoking. New IC players do that with Chaingrabbing, and that ofcourse doesn't work. Its like, the flamechoke Isn't easy to get eithe, and you'll get ***** being punished for not knowing what else to do. I really want to get decent at all before I learn this..
And I'll fail learnign this. ...

 

[Zeallyx]

Chainchoking is a helpful feat. but not THE helpful feat.

 

[SLASHinator]

I dunno, I just feel like if someone mastered this, ganon would have alot more potential. I mean, a guarenteed kill off gerudo? Its not easy to land, but it happens frequently enough, and when it means a kill, it means serious mindgames on your opponent. ICs whole game revolves around landing a grab because of how insanely great the reward is for doing so. So even though mastering all the ICs CGs are tough, a few expert ICs did it, and ICs got a huge reputation for it. Ganon has a lot harder time with chainchoking, but still, if one of you great ganons focused solely on mastering this tech, the reward might greatly outweigh the cost. I think it should become a priority for ganons; it's a tech with potential to greatly increase his metagame potential.

At the risk of flamed/scoffed at for the relative necromancy, I'm going to respond to this for I am bored.
There is no comparing Ganondorf's chainchoking tech with IC's chaingrabs. Besides the word 'chain' and it having to do with timing, it's nothing like each other.

Ganondorf has to read his opponent to the point that he has to get into the opponent's head and exactly know what the other wants to do; a single mistake will not only f%ck up the chain, but it will put a considerable distance between the opponent and you and mabe even damage you. The kill out of a chain has to be a prediction as well (though arguably that would be the easiest part as you have already predicted the opponent to the point of being able to kill), as not all chars can be hit out of a side-b and generally those attacks would not be powerful enough.

For ICs, once you have a grab you do not have to predict. This makes it a whole lot easier, as the opponent has nothing to do with the chain(grab). A kill can be followed into without the opponent having anything to say about it.

For ICs, all you need to do, is learn the (specific) timing. For Ganondorf, you'd not only need to learn the specific animations for all characters for all get up possibilities (like Clai just posted), but also you'd need to train yourself to react appropriately very fast.

So you could say ICs have the easy mode, and we are hardcore. Better would be to say, that ICs have the technique, we have the mindgame. Imo, in no way comparable.

 

[Z1GMA]

Slash, Chain Choking isn't based on prediction.

 

[SLASHinator]

Of course it is. You choke, he gets up. Does he stand up, get up attack, roll left or right. Seems you have to predict to me.

 

[Noobicidal]

Of course it is. You choke, he gets up. Does he stand up, get up attack, roll left or right. Seems you have to predict to me.

Of course it isn't. CC'ing is based PURELY on reaction.

 

[Bahamut777]

It's a mix of both. You CAN predict and read some common actions and patterns on rolling, get up and stuff, but you also have to react when that patter is already worn out and your opponent starts thinking a little before acting. Also, PSing GUAttacks is a reaction only thing that only Clai has enough balls to do so.

 

[SLASHinator]

Of course it isn't. CC'ing is based PURELY on reaction.

Ok, maybe if you've got a kickboxer's reaction speed. I, however, am mortal and most of the time I can't react that fast, at least with some chars.



I could see where you're coming from but I disagree nonetheless.

 

[Noobicidal]

Ok, maybe if you've got a kickboxer's reaction speed

Don't mind me then. I'll just be over here successfully Chain Choking.

I, however, am mortal and most of the time I can't react that fast, at least with some chars

Well now you're implying that kickboxers aren't human. That's just silly!

 

[SLASHinator]

Don't mind me then. I'll just be over here successfully Chain Choking.

Ok. I'll be here......... I guess I'll just be here.

Well now you're implying that kickboxers aren't human. That's just silly!

They scare me, I'm trying to rationalize that fear through making them immortals.
Makes sense no? NO?!

 

[Z1GMA]

It's a mix of both. You CAN predict and read some common actions and patterns on rolling, get up and stuff, but you also have to react when that patter is already worn out and your opponent starts thinking a little before acting.

You could think of it that way. It's a nice thought, Baha.

However, in theory, CC'ing is based 100% on reaction only.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Lol, I can only chainchoke G&W

 

[DLA]

Ok, maybe if you've got a kickboxer's reaction speed. I, however, am mortal and most of the time I can't react that fast, at least with some chars.



I could see where you're coming from but I disagree nonetheless.

When we talk about the term "chainchoking", it means reacting to your opponent's action and getting a guaranteed choke (because you're reacting, not predicting). It's a lot more difficult than predicting.

I've done a lot of work on chainchoking, but I've pretty much given up. It's exciting to think about Ganon having a guaranteed 0-death on the entire cast, but human reaction time during a match is just too slow to make any use of this.

It's one thing practicing on CPU's, since chainchoking is the only thing you need to focus on. In a real match though, you're not only focusing on the chainchoke; you also need to correctly react to your opponent's mindgames. And considering that you'll only be able to land a choke 2-3 times a stock tops against a good player (much less if you were actually able to 0-death consistently, since they'd know to avoid it), then once you actually land a choke, it would require more focus and concentration than humanly feasible to actually chainchoke with any semblance of consistency.


TL;DR: Humans don't have fast enough reactions to chainchoke good players reliably (pretty much what most people have been saying)

 

[Bahamut777]

What I mean is that every player is human and, as a human, they have some lines of thinking that every human addopt in their lives and, most of times, apply during gameplay. High level players, however, can set free of that patterns and always think inside the game for the best option acording to the situation they're in.

I think I'll translate my guide about humanity during Brawl gameplay and post it here, someday.