changing the way we play lucario?

[nightSN]

iv been trying to work on this thing for months and can see it has potential when we cant use a good kill move. so basically its another way to set up for a kill.

now im pretty sure every lucario main has pulled the off-stage "combo" of fair, fair, jump, fair, fully charged aura sphere/nair/dair.

now have you ever wanted to link this and at the end use bair? well i found a solution. this set up requires you to use RAR much faster then what we usually do when we are on the ground when we want to use bair.

The "Combo" *considering your opponent is offstage
rar > fair > fair > jump > fair > bair

btw your really going to have to use the cstick if you want to be able to have the momentum of going backwards while still doing fair.

so as you can see (if you just tried this) that fair has a hitbox that hits even behind lucario. this hitbox has the same knock back and deals the same damage as you would if were doing a fair forward but the only downside to this is that the range on the fair from the back does not reach as far as it would if it were on the front.

now this is just an alternative if you dont have an aura sphere all charged up because honestly iv tested which is stronger and has a bigger hit box and aura sphere beats bair. now although this is true we can still put this on stage as well.

now the usual combo that all lucarios do when on stage is:
fair > fair/nair/dair/as

instead we could just do this.
rar > fair > bair

again some downsides because of such the short range that the back of fair has which is also a risk of being shieldgrabbed.

discuss.

 

[Timbers]

A good deal of fairs have a hitbox that's "behind" the character. Knowing this it's good to know that you can follow an opponent with an fair and still have covered a wide area, and then finishing with a nair or something. Trying to use consecutive fairs like this will require the opponent to be at very low percents, however, and bair is, in all honesty, too slow to reliably followup anything. You don't want to give the opponent a chance to escape, something that is all too possible inbetween an fair to bair.

And given how low their percent must be to pull this off, you could just as easily do this with fair->fair->fair->bair. No RAR. The bair hitbox still hits in the desired direction so long as you're hitting with the very brunt of it (which is about halfway into Lucario)

In this situation though I would still go for fair->dair. When the percents are that low, it's just a wiser option to go for the much faster move.

 

[nightSN]

A good deal of fairs have a hitbox that's "behind" the character. Knowing this it's good to know that you can follow an opponent with an fair and still have covered a wide area, and then finishing with a nair or something. Trying to use consecutive fairs like this will require the opponent to be at very low percents, however, and bair is, in all honesty, too slow to reliably followup anything. You don't want to give the opponent a chance to escape, something that is all too possible inbetween an fair to bair.

And given how low their percent must be to pull this off, you could just as easily do this with fair->fair->fair->bair. No RAR. The bair hitbox still hits in the desired direction so long as you're hitting with the very brunt of it (which is about halfway into Lucario)

In this situation though I would still go for fair->dair. When the percents are that low, it's just a wiser option to go for the much faster move.

uhmm not so true, bair start up lag is probably almost just as much as aura sphere's and i dont think it has to be at low % like iv been able to pull one off on a MK at 100ish %

 

[TK Wolf]

They're close, but AS is a bit faster. Though I'm not sure if even AS is a true combo...

It's good to know and might turn up with some uses in some matches. I don't know if I'd specifically try for a RAR-fair combo though. I'll experiment with it and see if I can get comfortable with it.

At a first glance, I it sounds good that hitbox of the fair will reach the opponent a little faster, but the cost of less range seems pretty heavy.

 

[Timbers]

Few things wrong with that.

I never said aurasphere. If your percents are low enough where reverse fairs are connecting, so will a dair. Dair is 4 frames. If you can use dair I would recommend that over aurasphere in every situation.

Aurasphere covers much more range than bair. At this point, you'd have no more midair to use, while your opponent should still have theirs. At this point, they'll be trying to use thier midair to escape while you're losing altitude. You'd want to use the option that has a greater vertical reach to catch them out of their midair.

It's entirely up to you if you want to continue with it, but seeing as there's "no such thing as combos" in brawl, you generally want to be spaced much further away from your opponent, as anyone with a 2-4 frame aerial could easily hit you out of this. Anyone trying to DI the fair hits will also be more likely to escape it as you lose a lot of range. Infact, I wouldn't doubt the idea that an opponent could DI into Lucario and get hit with the fair to where it sends them right back to the stage.

 

[Browny]

if it aint broke, dont fix it. it works too well to be changed

 

[Samuelson]

I tested this out and it works better at high percents IMO. One backwards fair to a bair *****. If you're going to string more then one Fair i would recommend not using RAR. Also approaching with backwards fair is kind of cool, Fair>weak Nair> Utilt is too goood. Utilt works because it comes out so freaken fast when the opponent is behind you. This isn't a game changing discovery or anything but it should be taken into account and experimented with, people will expect a bair if you approach with your back turned and the last thing you want is to be predictable, this changes things a little bit.

Also, backwards fair to AS charge is cool but i have no idea how useful it is, probably not very. "Pseudo Sticking" an AS when you approach backwards is awesome also and useful for spacing

Like i said it's not game changing but i'm going to try to incorporate it into my game for now and if it ends up being useless (which is something i doubt) then i'm not gonna use it anymore.

 

[TK Wolf]

if it aint broke, dont fix it. it works too well to be changed

I think it's great that he looked into this! We need to look for new things, because right now the only thing I have to work on is spacing and mixups... that's not much. Even if only 5% of the things we try out work, as long as we get some new additions, it's worth it.

 

[phi1ny3]

I tested this out and it works better at high percents IMO. One backwards fair to a bair *****. If you're going to string more then one Fair i would recommend not using RAR. Also approaching with backwards fair is kind of cool, Fair>weak Nair> Utilt is too goood. Utilt works because it comes out so freaken fast when the opponent is behind you. This isn't a game changing discovery or anything but it should be taken into account and experimented with, people will expect a bair if you approach with your back turned and the last thing you want is to be predictable, this changes things a little bit.

Also, backwards fair to AS charge is cool but i have no idea how useful it is, probably not very. "Pseudo Sticking" an AS when you approach backwards is awesome also and useful for spacing

Like i said it's not game changing but i'm going to try to incorporate it into my game for now and if it ends up being useless (which is something i doubt) then i'm not gonna use it anymore.

I knew that this backwards fair had potential. It's not the most staple and stable, but it is good to mix imo.

 

[Browny]

frame advantage testing on this gooooo.

If someone hasnt done it by the time i get home ill get on it. atm im very sure fair-fair is much safer

also i remembered... i actually tried this mixup multiple times in my first tourney grand final match

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=wAJ9W35cwK0
1:50 was the closest i ever got to pulling it off
and 0:45 i went for it too, but it would have only hit if wolf DI'd to the right instead of left.... maybe i was too quick to judge on this. I think the potential risk, vs someone with an average aerial game like wolf, can be worth it if you predict their DI, while being safe if you miss anyway

 

[Timbers]

The downside to this is that you're going to have to throw yourself into an opponent and be completely vulnerable even when trying this, as the range on the fair when facing away is terrible. If the fair was quicker in the back (like 2 frames) I'd endorse this, but fair isn't the quickest thing in the world, and the only reason it's even worth mentioning in Luc's moveset is due to it's range and it's setups.

It's worth looking into, but I'm not holding my hopes very high on this.

 

[D. Disciple]

Heh I've brought up RARing Fair a lot of times on here but my posts usually get drowned out. >.>

But there are many things you can do with this that have been swarming through my head, but I always found it too risky.

Common things you can do especially around mid-percents. Let's go with 60% of damage you have on you, you can do RAR fair-land-bair-bair-hop-bair.

I could recommend this against Snake players who love to up-b right away when they get off stage, or people that love to jump right away as well. The aura around Lucario will be bigger obviously so RAR Fair's knock back will set you up for a bair. Then the other two bairs are for edgeguarding the aura part of the bair should hit them too for best knockback.

I've been dying to see how well this would work too, for an edgeguarding attempt to stage spike.

You can either hang from the edge, drop down with fair immediately from the edge, and start to carry your opponent with a few more strings of fair then end it with uair.

From what I see how this could be done is Falling-fair-fair-second hop fair-uair. I think this would be very good on PS1, Battlefield and Smashville.

 

[nightSN]

hmm alright how about this? surprising the opponent? what i have tried was go from edge, drop down, walljump, hold control stick to the upper left and then use this backwards fair. what iv noticed about this is that you gain a lot of momentum from the wall jump so this could almost replace the range that is missing from the backwards fair.

 

[Silvran]

I'd say it'd be great to pull out partway through the match, even if to just throw off the timing, since they'll see you coming, think "oh, b-air in all likelyhood", and could easily screw up the dodge/block. I'll have to work on this, but I'd say the very idea has potential... now we need people to work on the forward moving back air- sound interesting to you?

 

[nightSN]

haha yes interesting. i should of brought this up when i started working on this alone. LOLL god was it ever a pain of 2 months -.- and i still havent got it down yet LOL