Character Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

Very nice post, @Spirst, but some disagreement from my side.

If you're playing DH, there's almost no reason you should be standing still and using projectiles only.

There is a lot of reason for you to be doing this if you're fighting against a character who has to approach you. The advantage of not having to approach is a significant one, and why shouldn't Duck Hunt use it? It is of course trivially true that DHD does more damage actually fighting up close and trapping rather than attacking from a distance. The same can be said of Villager and Pacman; close-range fighting is just more lucrative than long-range fighting (that's the tradeoff of camping: safety for damage), and long-range fighting is in fact often easily broken through, even when it's really good long-range fighting. If DHD isn't a long-range zoner, then the term has been really confused/conflated, because unlike most characters (even Megaman!--Metal Blades from long-range are laughable; just z-catch them), DHD does have long-range zoning capabilities, and he will use them when it's to his advantage (not just against slow characters like Ganon, but against anyone where the opportunity presents itself). It's for the same reason that the character in the lead doesn't have to approach, or characters with a dangerous charge like Robin--Robin has a great set of aerials due to Levin Sword, but Thoron+ still makes the character want to take advantage of any situations where he finds himself at a distance away from his opponent. Same applies to DHD.

On the subject of his abilities: I think that Duck Hunt might be low tier, if so probably bottom 10, but then I don't know enough about the likes of Olimar, Samus, Kirby, WFT, Swordfighter, and Zelda to say for sure. That doesn't mean that he's a bad character, it's just that most characters in this game are pretty good relative to the cast (though top tiers are probably a mile away better than everyone else). People should be aware of what they're claiming when they say that a character "isn't in the lower tier regions." They're claiming that a character is better than, what, 15 other members of the cast that they probably don't really know much about? I don't see DHD being clearly superior to 15 (similarly underdeveloped) members of this cast, at least without customs, at this time. With customs, he gets better, with more potential, but others who are low also get better (and with just as much potential--see WFT's customs for an example, and Kirby's Jumping Inhale is ridiculous), so again I'm not sure and would need to see more of all the supposedly low and mid-tier characters to understand.

Snake had some of the best trapping tools in Brawl (MVD is the man to note here, who also mains DHD interestingly enough), in addition to immense, fast KO power (4- or 6-frame u-tilt?) and damage racking abilities (21% f-tilt), and he still started to decline in strength as the Brawl metagame advanced, because he got juggled and had an abusable recovery. Now, smash 4 has seen the removal of Olimar/Meta Knight as dominant threats, but DHD doesn't have anywhere near the KO power that Snake had, and his recovery is just about as bad, though he doesn't get juggled quite as hard. This analogy, like most cross-game analogies, ultimately falls apart because of the minute but numerous differences between the games and the characters, but in making this comparison I am trying to explain why analyzing Duck Hunt's tools in a vacuum in this fashion isn't quite enough. Snake had a ton of theoretical potential too, but his weaknesses were far too severe for him to exploit that potential in his metagame.

With all of that said: I'm not disagreeing with your position that there is more to DHD than we currently understand, and I learned quite a bit from reading your bullet points. In general, DHD has the ability to create traps and bad situations for the opponent, and these traps get even more interesting when different stages are thrown into the mix such as Lylat. I am interested to see these traps in action, and it's definitely too early in the game's lifespan to say that he sucks. At this point I'll leave it at a "I don't think this character is very good, but he can probably do some interesting things" note.

 

[meleebrawler]

Have you tried this in a real match? I have and it was not pretty. Since 1.0.4 spin dash reflects gordos passively while moving, and inhale is such a massive commitment it is very easy for sonic to jump out of his spin dash and kick your head. He doesn't even have to approach while a gordo is sitting there if it is somehow a problem, there's ample start up for him to get in if you wish to keep gordos out and keep throwing new ones.

The match up is pretty hard. I don't know what the other dedede's are doing but I have been content to shield spin dash and try to punish his landing whether or not he chooses to spring off into the skies. It kinda sucks trying to space out a character who can easily whiff punish your f tilt at pretty much any range.

I don't have enough high level experience to say who wins the match up, but I would put my money on the way, way better character unless there's extraordinary evidence that dedede wins.

Perhaps saying he wins was an exaggeration, but
it's just that Dedede has the tools to greatly slow Sonic down.

If spin dash does reflect gordos like you say, then Dedede
should still have time to shield since Spin dash still has noticeable
startup. Gordos also help cover inhale since the most reliable
way to get past the bouncing ball for Sonic in most cases is
to dash under it, which gets beat out by inhale.

As long as Dedede is careful with his gordos and doesn't
use them too close to Sonic, he shouldn't be getting them hit in his face.

Basically, Dedede has the tools to control the pace of Sonic's
game, as opposed to other heavies who Sonic can rush at
with relative impunity.

 

[FimPhym]

Oh, you haven't played the match and are just imagining how it might go? Please really try it out. Gordos don't exist to sonic and inhale is so easy to move around by jumping out of spin dash. Test it with a friend, it is very different from how it might seem on paper. Sonic is perhaps the match up I use gordos the least, having a moving attack that passively reflects gordos almost completely invalidates them outside of specific ledge set ups.

I'm also not sure how in your example dedede can inhale spin dash but also shield reflected gordos and for that matter end inhale and set up new gordos. If you think spin dash has noticable start up, this whole set up might as well be warlock punch.

Sonic truly doesn't have to respect dedede's gordos or inhale.

 

[Antonykun]

Sonic is perhaps the match up I use gordos the least, having a moving attack that passively reflects gordos almost completely invalidates them outside of specific ledge set ups.

Even less than the waking reflector known as Villager?

 

[Kofu]

Even less than the waking reflector known as Villager?

The fact that Gordos bounce makes it a little harder to deflect them if you don't have a move like Spin Dash that is one long hitbox. But between Lloid and his slingshots Villager doesn't have much trouble reflecting Gordos. That's to say nothing of Pocket, which amplifies Gordos even further. You have to be careful with those, though. I saw a video where a Dedede reflected a Pocketed Gordo and did over 60% to Villager (he died, obviously). But if you time it right Pocketed Gordos are one of Villager's most potent KO options against the fat Dedede.

Amusingly enough Pocketed Fire Hydrants are also amplified in power, both when Villager drops it and when someone sends it flying. Villager also has the ability to send it flying easily with DTilt (not at a very good angle, mind, but it does do 13%).

 

[FimPhym]

Villager would be another match up on the extreme low end of gordo use, not that they are used nearly as much as I think some may still believe in any match up. With villager the only time outside of ledge games that I use gordos would be some sort of hard read to punish lloid start up with an aerial gordo. May as well just dash and take the space though, much safer.

There's actually a few odd misconceptions about dedede, I feel. Like the idea that his advantage/disadvantage match ups are split down the lines of non-zoners/zoners. That's not to say that projectiles are easy for dedede, but it is significantly harder to deal with characters that have extremely safe recoveries and good ways to escape juggles after uair. Brutal zoners like DHD and villager have very tame recoveries from dedede's perspective and are the weakness you exploit to win the match up, as odd as it may sound to call villager's recovery weak.

I'm much more scared of say, yoshi and sheik among others. Losing the threat of off stage game is huge. That's why I think every dedede should be excited by this 1 frame of sweet spot vulnerability. Dedede can often harass edge guarders away with up air to recover safely, but gains an advantage against previously safe teleport recoveries.

 

[ZHMT]

I'm not capable of posting a whole lot at this time but how in the world is Sonic vs Dedede anything but Sonics favor? Sonic should be able to dance around D3, almost everything he does is punishable really because of Sonics dash speed. Dedede is so slow in the air too with fast falling speed which Sonic likes.

Does Spindash beat gordos? I read it does, and if that's the cast then lmfao the matchup is bad. (By design I personally think spindash is unbalanced and shouldn't clash like it does, it should just be treated as a grounded move that just loses if the hitboxes connect, treat it as -8% damage when calculating priority). Spindash shouldn't be clashing with characters smash attacks or tilts. The strength of it should be that its difficult to time a punish and it can be cancelled, that's MORE than enough.

Anyway back to Dedede vs Sonic. How does Dedede grab Sonic? Sonic can spring out of danger and Dedede can't do much about it, its like a shine. I don't understand...

 

[FimPhym]

Yeah in 1.0.3 spin dash was vulnerable to gordo in transit but would reflect during the jumping portion. Now it reflects always. This was by far the biggest change caused by the reflect threshold going from 3% to 2%, the only other notable move being charizard's fire breath.

I can't say I have a lot of experience against good sonic players, but the match up is quite sad as you imagined. Mostly it involves trying to punish landings the way I have played it. Or if sonic refuses to aproach, just carefully take space and force him to do something eventually. I have heard it is possible to grab sonic out of spin dash with good timing. If that's true that helps but I've not had a chance to test it.

Edit: thanks @ Locke 06 I did not know that!

 

[Locke 06]

Yeah in 1.0.3 spin dash was vulnerable to gordo in transit but would reflect during the jumping portion. Now it reflects always. This was by far the biggest change caused by the reflect threshold going from 3% to 2%, the only other notable move being charizard's fire breath.

I can't say I have a lot of experience against good sonic players, but the match up is quite sad as you imagined. Mostly it involves trying to punish landings the way I have played it. Or if sonic refuses to aproach, just carefully take space and force him to do something eventually. I have heard it is possible to grab sonic out of spin dash with good timing. If that's true that helps but I've not had a chance to test it.

Mega Man pellets didn't reflect it before. Now they do. It helps that matchup significantly for Mega Man.

 

[Jabejazz]

As long as Dedede is careful with his gordos and doesn't
use them too close to [Insert character here], he shouldn't be getting them hit in his face.

Yes, we're pretty much all aware of this critical point. Really doesn't make the MU in our favor.

Basically, Dedede has the tools to control the pace of Sonic's
game, as opposed to other heavies who Sonic can rush at
with relative impunity.

I'd agree he has more tools to control it, compared to other heavies (minus Ike), but he still heavily struggles at doing so.

Anyway back to Dedede vs Sonic. How does Dedede grab Sonic? Sonic can spring out of danger and Dedede can't do much about it, its like a shine. I don't understand...

Well, the post-spring part is where it becomes manageable. Sonic wants to spring as a last resort; it's definitely not a free get out of jail card. We don't necessarily get a grab out of it, mind you, but it's really punishable.

Truth be told, we probably don't land grabs much in this MU. Inhale, UAir, Ftilt are like the moves I used the most in this MU.

 

[Thinkaman]

There's been a lot of talk about Sheik lately. What do people think about Piercing Needles and Pisces? Are they actually relevant?

Piercing Needles have less range, more damage closer and less farther, pierce multiple targets, and do MASSIVE shield damage.

Pisces has way more commitment than Bouncing Fish, but hits way harder and is more mobile. It also can't be used as well when edge-guarding or pressuring a shield.

Needles
Frame 0- X: 1.9% 0b/342g 60° 0.8-Hitlag Pierce

Penetrating Needles
Frame 0- 5: 2.2%(+9) 0b/396g 60° 1.1-Hitlag Electric
Frame 6- X: 1.6%(+7) 0b/288g 60° 1.1-Hitlag Electric

Bouncing Fish (hit)
Frame 2- 8: 12% 26b/1080g 361° 1.7-Hitlag

Pisces (hit)
Frame 3- 8: 15.5% 45b/1395g 140° 1.7-Hitlag

 

[Esquire]

With APEX being just a month and a half away, and with a few qualifiers being done recently, I think it's a fair time to discuss what top characters we'll be seeing in a tournament setting. I've made a personal tier list to start off, but that's not really the focus of my post. It's rather just an explanation of where I stand in terms of interpreting characters. Think of it as a reference. Feel free to view it in the hidden quote section though! (NOTE: This list includes Mii Fighters, which some tier lists currently don't include. The tier list would obviously change without them, but I'm not doing two tier lists...)

A+

1. Diddy Kong
2. Sheik

A

3. Zero Suit Samus
4. Pikachu
5. Ness
6. Fox
7. Rosalina and Luma

A-

8. Mii Brawler
9. Sonic
10. Captain Falcon
11. Yoshi

B+

12. Lucario
13. Mario
14. Robin
15. Luigi
16. Mega Man
17. Greninja
18. Villager
19. R.O.B.


B

20. Pit
21. Wario
22. Duck Hunt
23. Little Mac
24. Shulk
25. Peach
26. Marth
27. Palutena
28. Jigglypuff
29. Dark Pit
30. Link

B-

31. Meta Knight
32. Bowser
33. Mii Gunner
34. Pac-Man
35. Toon Link

C

36. King Dedede
37. Ike
38. Falco
39. Mr. Game and Watch
40. Bowser, Jr.
41. Donkey Kong
42. Kirby
43. Olimar

D

44. Lucina
45. Wii Fit Trainer
46. Samus
47. Ganondorf
48. Zelda
49. Dr. Mario
50. Charizard
51. Mii Swordsman

- I'm not buying the whole "Sheik is #1" talk just yet. A lot of tournament players recently have been saying that Sheik is the clear choice for the top character in the game over Diddy Kong, and she's certainly in the Top 2 regardless. However, I really think that her lack of both knockback options outside of Bouncing Fish/FAir strings and her serious lack of damage output puts her at a practical disadvantage compared to Diddy Kong. Surely, her offstage game is clearly superior to the rest of the cast, and her recovery options are significantly better than Diddy's, but Diddy's damage output, strong knockback overall, superior throw game, unique mix-ups and zoning game just give Diddy players too much of an advantage in all match-ups. Sheik is an excellent character because she has no crippling downsides to exploit offensively. Damage output is low, but that doesn't hinder her offensive pressure. In the end, though, I think the difference between Diddy and Sheik is their ceilings and floors/rewards and risks. Diddy has a slightly lower floor than Sheik, but he also has a higher ceiling (which is odd, as Sheik is arguably harder to master than Diddy). The difference in floors doesn't make Sheik better outright, but the difference in ceilings is enough to make Diddy much more worthwhile to use in tournament.

- Characters I think are on the rise:

• Fox: Has recently been impressive in tournament play, strong character whose only limitation is his light weight. The metagame is extremely kind to him at the moment match-up-wise. Wouldn't be shocked to see him in Top 5 placements post-APEX.
  
• Mega Man: Proving to be one of the best mid-range spacers in tourney play. Lemons disrupt a lot of approaches, and his throw traps are incredible. Can approach players, yet is hard to approach himself.
  
• Villager: Camping game is unreal. Can space out players much like Mega Man, but from a longer distance. Does have some polarizing match-ups against some reflector characters, but also has some polarizing match-ups where he's way favored.
• Meta Knight: Scary good aerial combo game. While his ground game is lackluster, he doesn't have issues popping people up into the air. This is a character, IMO, you're going to be surprised the most by come APEX. Can easily see him sneaking into Top 25 range soon.

- Characters I think are falling:

• Lucario: Aura game is indeed threatening, but as this thread has been pointing out lately, his reach is just really bad. He's essentially a CQC who is slower than other top CQC options and lacks their range. Seems to have to rely on some repetitive normals to consistently get hits. He's certainly still Top 15 material, but he might end up right near that 15 mark.
• Greninja: To be honest, I don't think Greninja's descent is his own fault. Greninja is still a very solid character with a great aerial game, good recovery, and top-flight mobility. However, Sheik's prominence really hinders Greninja's usage, as the two characters do have a somewhat similar playstyle (re: not identical, but enough to compete for usage). The metagame is not kind to Greninja, and he just has enough flaws (light weight, bad grab game, etc) to limit him. Top 20 potential, but usage will be an issue.
• Bowser, Jr.: I've seen this character used in tournaments and have tested him before, and...I'm just not seeing his competitive value. His Side B is cool and really is Spin Dash Light, and he has a ton of disjoints, but it just seems that he's one of those "good on paper, mediocre in practice" kind of characters. Tournament players have had almost zero issues gimping his Up B, which is sad. He's not useless by any stretch of the imagination, but I can't see him doing well on most potential tier lists.

- You can't place Lucina well in a tier list. I mean this two ways: it's difficult to place her, and placing her near Marth for the sake of her being a near-identical clone of Marth does not make sense. Lucina is not like SSBM Roy, who is a fundamentally different character than Marth, and she's not like Dark Pit, who is identical to Pit in everything minus some inferior options, so it's hard to differentiate her match-ups from Marth. It's just that Marth does significantly better than Lucina in their identical match-ups. The way I viewed it is that, due to this difference, Lucina has a worse TTK (time to kill) potential against the cast in regards to the role she can potentially play using her playstyle, and thus should be relegated to a lower tier.

- I'd be disappointed if the Miis aren't allowed in tournaments. This is probably a discussion for a different day, but character impressions for tier lists really need to include all available options, and the community's seemingly flimsy stance on Mii Fighters in tournaments screw up competitive interpretations like these. Some tournaments allow them, some don't. Some come up with "middle ground" solutions like 1111 sets or "medium/medium" builds. Many pros throw them aside immediately, while others are preparing for them. What's going on here, and how can we get to a solution so that we can properly evaluate and create a metagame?

That's all from me for now! Feel free to comment about anything I wrote, and I'd be happy to explain my rankings if you have any questions.

 

[JWrecks]

So I got a good 5 hours of playtime in against my friends pretty legit megaman. Idk how much megaman discussion has gone on in this thread but I figured I'd throw in a few things.

- megaman can cause trouble for most characters who like to approach with Nairs that don't have large hit boxes, all he has to do is crouch and punish really hard, ZSS has no good options for approaching in the air.
- his fox trot is awesome ( short dash which makes space control easy ) so his movement options are strong, coupled with all his options to zone makes him better in neutral then most characters.
- his SH approach game is pretty mean, Fair is a nasty hit box and starts to combo at later percents with a lot of ease, Nair is just solid, it's got so many uses and really makes facing MM feel different
- Utilt and Dsmash ko at some really nice percents, Dsmash was hitting me at 80% as Zss and murdering me, as a hard read option or roll catch it's awesome. Utilt comes out fast and is a great oos option, koing slightly later but punishes almost anything that isn't an auto cancel
- Uair is absurd and easy to combo into, even if it doesn't kill you the move is brutal because it pushes you so far up that your basically just reset into a situation where you have to land safely against a character with great options for his vertical hit boxes
- MM's gimp game is brutal, Dair covers absurd range and so does Uair if you go the high recovery, Fair also beats out a lot of air moves and recovers quick enough to let him rejump your air dodge and smack you anyway... Oh and Bair kills really early when done off stage. Then he has thrown razors and charge shots along with the leaf shield to make your covering projectiles not count, this might be his strongest aspect
- the biggest issue with MM is his move set is so fun and situationally useful that you want to throw out his moves and make big reads, but when you miss your going to get punished hard for it, like really hard. His safe moves are great but your not utilizing him fully with just his safe moves, and that means you have to take some risks. The good thing is MM can rack up damage pretty fast so when you can recover quickly from a few bad reads

I think MM is solid just really awkward to play I think he loses to long ranged pokers like ZSS who can mix up they're recoveries enough to avoid the gimp, but I don't think a solid MM player is going to be out of any games because he controls space really well but hits like a dump truck. Also his movement is solid with the awesome fox trot and his grab is more then serviceable. I think he's going to be a dark horse like wario, not a top 5 or ten due to some rough match ups but we will see him be a solid tourney character. I just think it will be slightly longer for MM to see any prominence because he's so different and to get the most out of him you need to be spot on with your spacing, wario can get away with some pretty derby stuff.

 

[Nat Goméz]

I have heard it is possible to grab sonic out of spin dash with good timing. If that's true that helps but I've not had a chance to test it.

I just did, I think pretty much anyone with good grabs can grab Sonic out of his spindash. Is just the timing that's hard, but with practice you can learn how to do it consistently.. I think. And it's obviously easier with theter grabs, but DDD can do it too:

Spoiler

 

[FimPhym]

That is really kind of you to test and provide screenshots of something I should have gone and tested myself, I'm often stuck on 3ds without a partner so it can be a bother. Thanks so much!

Edit: God damn dedede is insanely proud of himself in that last screenshot.

 

[san.]

You can, but with the nerf to the roll cancelled pivot grab, you're also risking a grab break.

 

[Lavani]

There's been a lot of talk about Sheik lately. What do people think about Piercing Needles and Pisces? Are they actually relevant?

Piercing Needles have less range, more damage closer and less farther, pierce multiple targets, and do MASSIVE shield damage.

Pisces has way more commitment than Bouncing Fish, but hits way harder and is more mobile. It also can't be used as well when edge-guarding or pressuring a shield.

Needles
Frame 0- X: 1.9% 0b/342g 60° 0.8-Hitlag Pierce

Penetrating Needles
Frame 0- 5: 2.2%(+9) 0b/396g 60° 1.1-Hitlag Electric
Frame 6- X: 1.6%(+7) 0b/288g 60° 1.1-Hitlag Electric

Bouncing Fish (hit)
Frame 2- 8: 12% 26b/1080g 361° 1.7-Hitlag

Pisces (hit)
Frame 3- 8: 15.5% 45b/1395g 140° 1.7-Hitlag

I think a near-instant projectile that pierces and pressures shields is enough reason for it to be relevant in itself. Not the most relevant matchup, but the increase in damage means the needles reflect Dedede's Gordos at close range while also piercing through it rather than being walled by it. Luma can't wall them for Rosalina, either.

Also if you throw a bunch of them on 3DS they shimmer on the ground and make the game lag so that's a thing.

Pisces lacks a lot of Bouncing Fish's versatility and I can't see it being worth the increased kill power in most cases. Maybe there's a matchup where the speed helps, but as I recall the Sheik board wasn't thrilled about much beyond XX11 sets during Ampharos' project.

- I'm not buying the whole "Sheik is #1" talk just yet. A lot of tournament players recently have been saying that Sheik is the clear choice for the top character in the game over Diddy Kong, and she's certainly in the Top 2 regardless. However, I really think that her lack of both knockback options outside of Bouncing Fish/FAir strings and her serious lack of damage output puts her at a practical disadvantage compared to Diddy Kong. Surely, her offstage game is clearly superior to the rest of the cast, and her recovery options are significantly better than Diddy's, but Diddy's damage output, strong knockback overall, superior throw game, unique mix-ups and zoning game just give Diddy players too much of an advantage in all match-ups. Sheik is an excellent character because she has no crippling downsides to exploit offensively. Damage output is low, but that doesn't hinder her offensive pressure. In the end, though, I think the difference between Diddy and Sheik is their ceilings and floors/rewards and risks. Diddy has a slightly lower floor than Sheik, but he also has a higher ceiling (which is odd, as Sheik is arguably harder to master than Diddy). The difference in floors doesn't make Sheik better outright, but the difference in ceilings is enough to make Diddy much more worthwhile to use in tournament.

[...]

- Characters I think are on the rise:

• Meta Knight: Scary good aerial combo game. While his ground game is lackluster, he doesn't have issues popping people up into the air. This is a character, IMO, you're going to be surprised the most by come APEX. Can easily see him sneaking into Top 25 range soon.

[...]
- Characters I think are falling:

• Greninja: To be honest, I don't think Greninja's descent is his own fault. Greninja is still a very solid character with a great aerial game, good recovery, and top-flight mobility. However, Sheik's prominence really hinders Greninja's usage, as the two characters do have a somewhat similar playstyle (re: not identical, but enough to compete for usage). The metagame is not kind to Greninja, and he just has enough flaws (light weight, bad grab game, etc) to limit him. Top 20 potential, but usage will be an issue.

Diddy's lower skill floor is certainly a reason he's garnered so much popularity, but he has a much more vulnerable recovery than Sheik, and (I believe) doesn't have the frame data that allows Sheik to just throw attacks at a shield and get away with it. I definitely think he's a top character, but at this point in the game's life I only feel he's being perceived as top due to ease of use and the kind of reward per hit that demands a less technical understanding of the character than someone like Sheik. Sheik also isn't limited to Bouncing Fish for KOs; Vanish KOs Mario from the middle of FD around 125% and considerably sooner in an edgeguard situation (runoff Vanish is love). Bair KOs in edgeguard situations. Sweetspot usmash can kill sub-100% and while it takes a read on its own, Gravity Grenade combos into it in a customs environment. Bouncing Fish can also true combo off weak hit nair, needles, and I think fthrow among other things. Damage per hit may be low for the popular combo moves (ftilt, fair) but she has harder hitting attacks like nair (8%), bair (10%), bouncing fish (12%) that can all end combos and help tack on that much more damage.

Meta Knight feels like he revolves too much around dash attack/dthrow>uair and B moves. He loses his uair strings at lower mid percents, even earlier with rage, and his upB is apparently vulnerable to SDI to avoid the killing hit. His damage per hit is comparable to Sheik, but he has much more end lag on attacks than Sheik. I don't think he's terrible, probably around the middle of the cast, but he just has issues that established upper end characters don't and his approaches are predictable.

Greninja I felt was going to drop off even before 1.0.4 hit. His best OoS option is basically shielddrop jab because he has a godawful 14f grab, and all aerials except for bair have significant startup except his shorthop is too high for bair to hit. Similarly, he doesn't have any safe approaches, so his gameplan heavily revolves around throwing shurikens and hoping his opponent does something punishable.

 

[David Viran]

So I got a good 5 hours of playtime in against my friends pretty legit megaman. Idk how much megaman discussion has gone on in this thread but I figured I'd throw in a few things.

- megaman can cause trouble for most characters who like to approach with Nairs that don't have large hit boxes, all he has to do is crouch and punish really hard, ZSS has no good options for approaching in the air.
- his fox trot is awesome ( short dash which makes space control easy ) so his movement options are strong, coupled with all his options to zone makes him better in neutral then most characters.
- his SH approach game is pretty mean, Fair is a nasty hit box and starts to combo at later percents with a lot of ease, Nair is just solid, it's got so many uses and really makes facing MM feel different
- Utilt and Dsmash ko at some really nice percents, Dsmash was hitting me at 80% as Zss and murdering me, as a hard read option or roll catch it's awesome. Utilt comes out fast and is a great oos option, koing slightly later but punishes almost anything that isn't an auto cancel
- Uair is absurd and easy to combo into, even if it doesn't kill you the move is brutal because it pushes you so far up that your basically just reset into a situation where you have to land safely against a character with great options for his vertical hit boxes
- MM's gimp game is brutal, Dair covers absurd range and so does Uair if you go the high recovery, Fair also beats out a lot of air moves and recovers quick enough to let him rejump your air dodge and smack you anyway... Oh and Bair kills really early when done off stage. Then he has thrown razors and charge shots along with the leaf shield to make your covering projectiles not count, this might be his strongest aspect
- the biggest issue with MM is his move set is so fun and situationally useful that you want to throw out his moves and make big reads, but when you miss your going to get punished hard for it, like really hard. His safe moves are great but your not utilizing him fully with just his safe moves, and that means you have to take some risks. The good thing is MM can rack up damage pretty fast so when you can recover quickly from a few bad reads

I think MM is solid just really awkward to play I think he loses to long ranged pokers like ZSS who can mix up they're recoveries enough to avoid the gimp, but I don't think a solid MM player is going to be out of any games because he controls space really well but hits like a dump truck. Also his movement is solid with the awesome fox trot and his grab is more then serviceable. I think he's going to be a dark horse like wario, not a top 5 or ten due to some rough match ups but we will see him be a solid tourney character. I just think it will be slightly longer for MM to see any prominence because he's so different and to get the most out of him you need to be spot on with your spacing, wario can get away with some pretty derby stuff.

ZSS's nair can hit any crouching opponent if you know what you are doing same with her Bair.

 

[NairWizard]

Sheik's damage output is on par with Diddy's. Chained f-airs and Bouncing Fish/b-air setups add up. The last patch actually buffed her damage output because f-air is easier to chain now that it's weaker.

Diddy's advantage is that he kills earlier than Sheik (even with Sheik's setups). Sheik is safer in exchange (both on and offstage), though, and needles are better than Diddy's camp game.

I've been thinking for a while @ Thinkaman that Sheik's customs are very relevant, and I don't see how she gets much worse with them on relative to the cast (unsure if she retains #1 position). Gravity Grenade adds to her KO setups, which is important for her, and Pisces offers extra mobility at the cost of some of those KO setups, a great pair with Gravity Grenade imo (GG into up-smash is really "gg", and having the mobility to mess up your opponent's spacing at a word is too good). I haven't seen the point in Piercing Needles except against Luma, because Sheik wants to condition you into shielding in general, and Piercing Needles make you want to dodge instead of shield, but it might be useful against projectile campers.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

26. Marth (B)
- (B-)
- (C)
44. Lucina (D)

You can't place Lucina well in a tier list. I mean this two ways: it's difficult to place her, and placing her near Marth for the sake of her being a near-identical clone of Marth does not make sense. Lucina is not like SSBM Roy, who is a fundamentally different character than Marth, and she's not like Dark Pit, who is identical to Pit in everything minus some inferior options, so it's hard to differentiate her match-ups from Marth. It's just that Marth does significantly better than Lucina in their identical match-ups. The way I viewed it is that, due to this difference, Lucina has a worse TTK (time to kill) potential against the cast in regards to the role she can potentially play using her playstyle, and thus should be relegated to a lower tier.

I'd say she is like Dark Pit in that she's basically identical to her counterpart but worse in nearly every imaginable way. Lucina's main thing holding her back is an issue with safety (which is speculated at this point to result in her low-percent game revolving around grabs and Dtilts. Hmm that doesn't sound familiar). This very well could be a significant one and I would not be surprised if that alone makes her a bottom tier character (in addition to having a poor grab game, compounding her problem with shields). However, I just have a hard time seeing her as a whopping three tiers lower than Marth. I would like to hear more about why you think the gap between them is so large (I know you said it's hard to accurately place her, but still).

I wholehearted agree that Lucina's ability to close stocks sucks compared to most of the roster. This is why as much as I will try to rep her in tournaments, I can see myself throwing a pocket Marth out every now and then in matchups where I feel the effort Lucina has to put in just isn't worth it. (Eg. Marth vs Lucina: This matchup is a battle of wits, except Marth deals more damage and KOs earlier. It's like a mirror match that somehow manages to be one-sided. Bowser-Lucina is also a MU where I could see myself switching to Marth. Bowser can nab her stocks in so fewer hits than she can him it isn't funny.) The only character that really comes to mind that Lucina can generally KO as early as Marth is Little Mac. Dude dies the moment he gets smacked by a Fair/Bair offstage lawl.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tell me how Lucina smacks a shield with anything except a d-tilt and doesn't get blown up, then I will tell you how she isn't low tier.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yes, we're pretty much all aware of this critical point. Really doesn't make the MU in our favor.



I'd agree he has more tools to control it, compared to other heavies (minus Ike), but he still heavily struggles at doing so.


Truth be told, we probably don't land grabs much in this MU. Inhale, UAir, Ftilt are like the moves I used the most in this MU.

Saying he wins was a mistake on my part: just a knee-jerk
reaction in saying how Dedede handles Sonic better than other heavies.
For that, I am sorry.

It is true that more than half of Dedede's moveset is punishable by Sonic,
and that alone makes the matchup rather difficult.

But Sonic's punishing prowess mainly comes from how fast he
can run on the ground. Gordo helps stop that.
Now here's the big question: how quickly
can Sonic get out a spin dash? That alone will probably determine
how much use gordo will get. That and how spin-dash happy your opponent is.

If he is, shield beats pretty much everything that can be done
out of spin dash, even if it doesn't always lead to a punish.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Tell me how Lucina smacks a shield with anything except a d-tilt and doesn't get blown up, then I will tell you how she isn't low tier.

I actually think she sucks myself. My point was that I find the disparity jarring.

 

[HeoandReo]

I'd say she is like Dark Pit in that she's basically identical to her counterpart but worse in nearly every imaginable way. Lucina's main thing holding her back is an issue with safety (which is speculated at this point to result in her low-percent game revolving around grabs and Dtilts. Hmm that doesn't sound familiar). This very well could be a significant one and I would not be surprised if that alone makes her a bottom tier character (in addition to having a poor grab game, compounding her problem with shields). However, I just have a hard time seeing her as a whopping three tiers lower than Marth. I would like to hear more about why you think the gap between them is so large (I know you said it's hard to accurately place her, but still).

I wholehearted agree that Lucina's ability to close stocks sucks compared to most of the roster. This is why as much as I will try to rep her in tournaments, I can see myself throwing a pocket Marth out every now and then in matchups where I feel the effort Lucina has to put in just isn't worth it. (Eg. Marth vs Lucina: This matchup is a battle of wits, except Marth deals more damage and KOs earlier. It's like a mirror match that somehow manages to be one-sided. Bowser-Lucina is also a MU where I could see myself switching to Marth. Bowser can nab her stocks in so fewer hits than she can him it isn't funny.) The only character that really comes to mind that Lucina can generally KO as early as Marth is Little Mac. Dude dies the moment he gets smacked by a Fair/Bair offstage lawl.

To be honest I feel that those places are spot-on. If I were to make a tier list, how Esquire placed them would be exactly where I would as well, with Marth at solid mid and Lucina at the top of bottom. Lucina's not absolutely dreadful by any means, but compared to the majority of the cast, she feels very lacking. You can win with Lucina, but she has to work much much harder than many other characters.

These days I don't feel the differences are super great either since both Marth and Lucina share pretty significant weaknesses in Smash 4, (crippling endlag, limited approaches, poor combo ability, mediocre recovery making them susceptible to edgeguards themselves) but they are noticeable enough to justify the tier difference, given that the difference in viability between tiers is much smaller than in previous games, which is why it appears that there's significant difference between the two. Even not touching onto the shield safety issue, there is a gap between Lucina's and Marth's overall killpower that can be filled with many characters in between. And the slight range difference which can be noticeable after a while. Generally, this means worse matchups across the board, which factors hugely in tiering. Like for Marth, there's quite a few character matchups that I am pretty sure are in his favour. For Lucina, the only favourable matchup I've played that comes to mind that feels decisively in her favour is Dr. Mario. There's a lot of matchups that are even or around that, but Doc is the only one I can confidently say that she counters.

 

[Funkermonster]

That's all from me for now! Feel free to comment about anything I wrote, and I'd be happy to explain my rankings if you have any questions.

Okay then, most of your placements pretty look legit I guess, but these in particular make me scratch my head.

Ultimately Disagree




Questionable





I'd be happy to give my reasoning, but I have a book to read right now unfortunately. I'm just using this as a placeholder for when I'm done, and I'll come back later.

 

[irokex13]

As much as I hate to ring back that whole "x character is being slept on" thing, there seems to be a number of characters that aren't being given enough attention. It seems that the top 8-ish caracters are pretty much understood, but spots 9-40 are a mass of confusion.

My question is what do people think of the following characters: Pit, Robin, Peach, Jigglypuff, and Shulk? Besides Shulk, all of these characters seem to get a little spurt of attention from the community, then fall into obscurity as the discussion falls back to Diddy Kong/Sheik/Mario/flavor of the week.

All of these characters seems to have strong enough tools to combat all of the cast and seem to have doable MUs against the top tiers (imo I don't think any of them have a MU worse than 4-6 against the top tiers, while they are problem characters for many others). I'm not advocating for these characters to be top tier, I just want to hear what are the overall opinions of these characters.

 

[|RK|]

So we've decided that Gdorf is low tier?

 

[Jaxas]

That's all from me for now! Feel free to comment about anything I wrote, and I'd be happy to explain my rankings if you have any questions.

My main question is ZSS' placement at 3rd; she's certainly not bad, but that seems slightly high.
Yoshi seems a bit low, as well. Makes sense though, with his representation.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Been playing a lot of Puff over the past few days.

Overall, her ability to get the opponent offstage with Nair, B Throw, Fair chains, Bair, and also juggle with Up Air, pressure shield with well spaced aerials, and also edgeguard so effectively, scarily, and deeply make a character with a very effective kit imo. Not to mention that Rest is an option that greatly boosts anyone's viability.

Still, her flaws are pretty bad. She really does get killed that early. If she gets too happy with her shield, she can get punished harder than most characters. Her ground game isn't terrible, but it does have some very noticeable holes. People who outrange her, I've found, make her have to work hard.

There's a lot more positives and negatives alike, but I will be honest in saying that my knowledge of the game is a lot smaller than many of the people who talk here. So, I ask...

?

 

[Smog Frog]

So we've decided that Gdorf is low tier?

no, i can say that after using him he's mid-mid low
his reward on small reads is the best

 

[Dpete]

As much as I hate to ring back that whole "x character is being slept on" thing, there seems to be a number of characters that aren't being given enough attention. It seems that the top 8-ish caracters are pretty much understood, but spots 9-40 are a mass of confusion.

My question is what do people think of the following characters: Pit, Robin, Peach, Jigglypuff, and Shulk? Besides Shulk, all of these characters seem to get a little spurt of attention from the community, then fall into obscurity as the discussion falls back to Diddy Kong/Sheik/Mario/flavor of the week.

All of these characters seems to have strong enough tools to combat all of the cast and seem to have doable MUs against the top tiers (imo I don't think any of them have a MU worse than 4-6 against the top tiers, while they are problem characters for many others). I'm not advocating for these characters to be top tier, I just want to hear what are the overall opinions of these characters.

Let's throw ROB in there too... Feel like he's in the Top 20 conversation.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Another list that yoshi is slept on. I can't wait till the US realizes how strong ths character is. The list that was posted above he only struggles with one character out of that bunch which is Shiek. Yeah I know some of u think he has a bad grab but he has so much more than that. Amazing recovery, projectile , priority on moves, high damage, so many of his moves kill it's pretty much just pick a option, amazing air speed, jab and dash attack are great as well. Everyone just on the Diddy hype and yoshi isn't as easy to play as Diddy. But I totally disagree with captain falcon ness and pikachu. Don't think falcon is top 10. Ness and pikachu are to high more so pikachu. Esam better blow my mind at apex is all I'm saying.

 

[NairWizard]

priority on moves.

*sigh* can we please stop saying that moves have priority

There is no such statistic as "move priority." It's all about hitboxes. Yoshi's hitboxes are good, and his attacks are fast, but he doesn't have more priority than other characters. He has the same priority as just about everyone else, and less than Ganon/Ike/heavies since they do more damage, and obviously less than disjointed characters since they have disjoints.

An attack that does 9% damage over another one traditionally "outprioritizes" another move (if they clash, the move that does 9% more damage will win). The only move that Yoshi has outside of smashes that can deal 9% more damage than another move is f-air, which does 14%, so I guess it outprioritizes like Mario's up-tilt or something.

 

[Trifroze]

*sigh* can we please stop saying that moves have priority

There is no such statistic as "move priority." It's all about hitboxes. Yoshi's hitboxes are good, and his attacks are fast, but he doesn't have more priority than other characters. He has the same priority as just about everyone else, and less than Ganon/Ike/heavies since they do more damage, and obviously less than disjointed characters since they have disjoints.

An attack that does 9% damage over another one traditionally "outprioritizes" another move (if they clash, the move that does 9% more damage will win). The only move that Yoshi has outside of smashes that can deal 9% more damage than another move is f-air, which does 14%, so I guess it outprioritizes like Mario's up-tilt or something.

Aerial moves don't follow the rules of high and low priority (9% window) though. Yoshi has some multi-hit aerials as well as eggs which makes things iffy regarding his effective priority. As far as I know, eggs will never clash unless you hit them at their startup, and multi-hit aerials will have their first hit canceled only for you to be hit by the next one.

What really makes Yoshi good is how safe all of his moves are in neutral and how well he can reset to neutral whether he's in advantage or disadvantage. He doesn't have to commit a whole lot.

People were saying earlier he's not very good in advantage but I disagree, his landing traps are pretty ridiculous with his aerial mobility and general laglessness in his moves. He can throw out 2 different aerials while you're trying to airdodge or challenge the first one, all while following with your momentum. He can also setup easy kills with eggs and apply crazy shield pressure with the likes of dair and bair. In disadvantage he can just cover everything with eggs and escape resets with nairs and jabs, or clutch out of gimps with his super armor jump. In neutral the general safety of his moves combined with his mobility and with how good eggs are, he doesn't have too much trouble forcing an approach or approaching himself without getting punished. Oh, and he can also gimp predictable recoveries easily. I'm not sure why getting hit by first or second hit of bair causes like 1.5-2 seconds of hitstun at any %. That's more than a stage spike.

 

[NairWizard]

Aerial moves don't follow the rules of high and low priority (9% window) though.

True, I forgot about the aerial priority distinction.

What really makes Yoshi good is how safe all of his moves are in neutral and how well he can reset to neutral whether he's in advantage or disadvantage. He doesn't have to commit a whole lot.

Why would Yoshi want to reset to neutral when he's in advantage?

Also, I completely disagree and think that Yoshi is one of the more commitment-heavy characters in the game, and his neutral isn't as good as people are making it out to be. I talked a little about this before, but he has a lot of lingering hitboxes that make punishing his attacks very easy if you stay safe and space properly. N-air is 25 frames. When he has his boot out and is waiting around not being productive--that's when you hit Yoshi. Dash attack, Yoshi bomb, b-air, d-air... almost every move that Yoshi has to approach with is a punishable commitment. B-air looks really safe, but it isn't.

The only move that's completely safe to space is f-air because it has a lot of shield stun so the other guy has to not shield it and duck under it in order to deal with it, and even then jab is frame 2 so you can't really get there in time most of the time if Yoshi weaves back with it.

Yoshi's grab is also really bad for neutral, even with the command grab. Eggs patch this up somewhat and are really dominant in some matchups but they can be spaced around, unlike something like say Thunderjolts which forces a shield or jump.

Yoshi in neutral is OK, maybe good, not great. Yoshi in disadvantage is relatively quite good, and Yoshi in advantage is pretty good.

edit: I'm out of my mind re: Villager. Edited that.

 

[Chuva]

- Characters I think are falling:

• Greninja: To be honest, I don't think Greninja's descent is his own fault. Greninja is still a very solid character with a great aerial game, good recovery, and top-flight mobility. However, Sheik's prominence really hinders Greninja's usage, as the two characters do have a somewhat similar playstyle (re: not identical, but enough to compete for usage). The metagame is not kind to Greninja, and he just has enough flaws (light weight, bad grab game, etc) to limit him. Top 20 potential, but usage will be an issue.

I might be biased considering my local scene has a few very dominant Greninjas, but as of now there is no reason for him to fall any further imo. I also feel the whole "worse Sheik" stereotype is kinda misleading.

Nerfs apart, he is still one of the most mobile characters in the game, and mobility can take you really far. If anything, Greninja is more akin to ZSS nowdays as both have top notch aerial and ground mobility coupled with tools (other than their grabs) that makes them mixup monsters at mid-range; except that Greninja has better kill-power to capitalize from hits at the cost of worse frame and hitbox data on some moves.

Post-1.0.4 frog had some of his best moves nerfed, but they are still very good moves. Usmash and it's generous horizontal hitbox continues to be good for anti-air and landing chases. Shuriken game is still a big factor in some MUs and a big part of his mixup game. Hydro-pump still demands respect from some characters at edgeguard situations. Fair 13F start-up is not necessarily bad when you add in Greninja's jump height and how easily he can bait air-dodges, plus it still kills well. As I said, the frog had some of his rushdown weakened, but he can always sit at mid-range and play the spacing game until he gets in and then proceeds to his oppressive advantageous state, just like ZSS.

I still have Greninja somewhere in the top 15, but for now I don't think he should be dropping more. There are potential characters that could eventually outshine him in competitiveness such as , but some of those characters lack in representation, whereas we've had (and still have) glimpses of Greninja at high-level play.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

i don't think yoshi is as commitment heavy as you think he is. He's very good at baiting with his air mobility. We will see how time tells. Hopefully a few good US players will take a hold of him and show what he's capable of. As if now the only bad mu I feel he has is Shiek(out of the perceived) top tier characters. Meta game will be fun to watch


To the above poster I don't think wario will ever be top 15. He has issues killing. His nerfs really hurt him. His upair and dair especially. I know Fart is powerful but you can't rely on that for kills every match. Also I can't stand his dash attack.

 

[NairWizard]

If anything, Greninja is more akin to ZSS nowdays as both have top notch aerial and ground mobility coupled with tools (other than their grabs)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Greninja's grab actually have above-average endlag? I thought it only had significant startup lag.

 

[Trifroze]

Yoshi's grab is also really bad for neutral, even with the command grab. Eggs patch this up somewhat and are really dominant in some matchups but they can be spaced around, unlike something like say Thunderjolts which forces a shield or jump.

This is pretty vital when talking about Yoshi's commitment in neutral. Eggs definitely force a jump or shield unless you're a very short character at the absolute ideal spot under the arc, unless you want to back off from their range which basically gives Yoshi stage control and can be done with thunderjolts as well. On the contrary thunderjolts cannot be aimed upwards to discourage or punish aerial approaches whereas eggs can. Also thunderjolts can be clashed with basically anything.

Also, I completely disagree and think that Yoshi is one of the more commitment-heavy characters in the game, and his neutral isn't as good as people are making it out to be. I talked a little about this before, but he has a lot of lingering hitboxes that make punishing his attacks very easy if you stay safe and space properly. If you compare his n-air to Villager's, Villager's n-air has a hitbox from frame 3-11 but Yoshi's has a hitbox from frame 3-25. See those additional 14 frames? That's when you hit Yoshi. Dash attack, Yoshi bomb, b-air, d-air... almost every move that Yoshi has to approach with is a punishable commitment. B-air looks really safe, but it isn't.

Considering how quick Yoshi can fade out aerially and how little landing lag his aerials have (except dair, which is another subject), his approaches are safe on quite a lot of characters. He doesn't have a top level neutral game, if he did combined with his other attributes he'd be broken, but combined with his easy time in disadvantage and the ability to perform follow-ups and traps with ease in advantage makes me look at his neutral game as something that shouldn't be nearly as good as it is right now. If you're comparing Yoshi to Villager, then his neutral won't look that good, but Villager is top of the line in that area and on the contrary has a really hard time getting people off of him whereas Yoshi doesn't have much trouble at all.

Something I forgot to mention is his height/weight/speed ratio probably being the best in the game (Wario competes though). I know Falcon has a fairly high grab, but sometimes I literally can't punish Yoshi with it when they're in landing lag animation, yet they live as long as I do.

 

[NairWizard]

This is pretty vital when talking about Yoshi's commitment in neutral. Eggs definitely force a jump or shield unless you're a very short character at the absolute ideal spot under the arc, unless you want to back off from their range which basically gives Yoshi stage control and can be done with thunderjolts as well. On the contrary thunderjolts cannot be aimed upwards to discourage or punish aerial approaches whereas eggs can. Also thunderjolts can be clashed with basically anything.

Yes, like I said: eggs are dominant in some matchups. But if you're not huge like Bowser or sluggish like Robin (who doesn't actually care that much about eggs in the first place), eggs can be ducked and weaved. Crouch, dash, dodge, shield; there are lots of options against eggs, and they don't always advance the cause of Yoshi gaining stage control because he has to dash back sometimes or jump to use them (Pikachu also jumps up to use Thunderjolts, but partly because it makes following the jolt easier; he very rarely loses stage control by doing this). Eggs are overrated, imo, and characters like Sheik/Diddy/Megaman/Villager/Pikachu don't strongly care about them. I wouldn't say that they're even a top-tier projectile once you know the arcs that they can go in.

Considering how quick Yoshi can fade out aerially and how little landing lag his aerials have (except dair, which is another subject), his approaches are safe on quite a lot of characters. He doesn't have a top level neutral game, if he did combined with his other attributes he'd be broken, but combined with his easy time in disadvantage and the ability to perform follow-ups and traps with ease in advantage makes me look at his neutral game as something that shouldn't be nearly as good as it is right now.

You can disregard the Villager comparison; I edited that out as it didn't seem accurate.

I wouldn't even say not-top-level; I would say downright average or slightly above average. I agree with you about how good Yoshi is in advantage and in disadvantage but think he's rather bland/uninspiring in neutral once you learn to deal with him. The grab is what really seals the deal for him. If he didn't have to rely on his command grab or his grab weren't so laggy then I would agree with you that Yoshi's neutral is way too good, due to his aerial mobility and how fast his jab and n-air come out. To Yoshi's credit, he does have pretty good shield pressure for getting around that grab, whether from multi-hit moves, eggs, or the ability to break shields with down-b, but I don't think that shield pressure is enough in neutral.

Should go without saying, but getting grabs is huge since they're damage + positional advantage of your choice in a given scenario, almost twice as good as getting an attack in, especially at pummel %s because you can refresh your move of choice. Yoshi's command grab doesn't even let you select the position into which you throw your opponent; it's always the same, straight behind Yoshi. It's a bigger deal than people think, but I will have to upload some games against high-level Yoshis to prove it apparently.

Something I forgot to mention is his height/weight/speed ratio probably being the best in the game (Wario competes though).

This is pretty true, and would be great if he didn't have an enormous hurtbox on his nose. I wouldn't want to get sinuses as Yoshi, would you?