Character Competitive Impressions

[ChronoPenguin]

Let me tell you that I can, will, and am going to say whatever it is that I feel like saying. Whether you like it or not, is not my problem. Calm yo' *** down

Where do you think those differences (like the 1% on reward) come from? From the fact that one has a tipper and the other doesn't. You can't bring up differences of the character without mentioning the key factor that diffrentiates the two. It's because of that difference is why I'm saying Lucina is more about being bold. If you're literally trying to play Lucina exactly the same as Marth, then I can see where people are having the problem and am elaborating on solutions to handle it....Really?

Just because everyone else wants to keep trying to judge things with subjective terms as if they're objective, means that I'm apparently not allowed to have a different perspective on it...? LOL

You're the one who needs to stahp. Don't come at me with that ignorant bull****

You're probably the least calm I've see anyone in this thread.

Her lack of a tipper makes her a bit less zoning oriented, but a bit more rushdown oriented.

This isn't a solution. Spacing is a basic concept you don't "lose" for spacing a hit well,

Let's pretend Marth doesn't exist for a second.
There isn't a special quality to her blade she doesn't *gain* anything for hitting people closer, but she gains *safety* in hitting them farther.

Then we introduce Marth who gains more reward for what she *wants* to do naturally. Not a small amount either, a significant amount of reward. This wouldn't be so bad for her given what Sakurai intended (training wheels for Marth) if Marth didn't have a hitlag modifier but he *does*. Now if she did more damage on her hit this 'problem' wouldn't really exist.

You aren't "more Rush-down oriented" because Marth can play your same game and does it *better*.

*Shulk* Gains more damage on his blade for hitting people closer instead of tipping except for N-air if I'm not forgetting a move and Shulks still go for tippers because the difference is saying Eating an F-smash if you missed up close vs eating an F-tilt or nothing at all if you tipped. Lucina isn't any different for why she *still* goes to hit with the end of her hitbox.

The difference between Marths untipped Ftilt and Lucinas ftilt is 0.97%.
She kills what 1-6% earlier for her "advantage"? Except Marth has a 0.7 Hitlag modifier so he is safer if he hits shield. Since he is *safer* for doing the exact same thing as Lucina he is *Better* at rushdown. For Lucina to be even marginally better then people need to legit never shield and always be outside of tipper range. If her damage was a little higher your "solution" may of been accurate. Eg. something like 10.5% on Ftilt.

 

[Ffamran]

Now I'm starting to wonder what Lucina would be if she was much faster, had less knockback to her attacks, but similar damage. She'd be like Luigi then while Marth is the Mario in this situation and Ike is Dr. Mario if we're going with that Mario Bros. analogy since Ike would be more like Wario, though, considering Ike's mobile and powerful like Wario while Dr. Mario is powerful and not as mobile.

It would create an issue if she couldn't kill early since, hypothetically, if she could rack up damage even faster than Sheik, but killed late or had little kill moves like Sheik, then characters like Lucario, Bowser, Triple D, and Ganondorf would be able to take advantage of rage fast.

Anyway, Marth being more defensive and punisher-like is like a harsh wake-up similar Meta Knight and Falco. He's fine, but he's not Marth of yore. I don't know much about Marth/Lucina so I'm going to leave it at that.

Fox's Bair kills fairly well, but I don't see it being used as much kind of like how I don't see a lot of people using Falco's Uair or Fair, especially after the 1.04 patch. Is it because of range or something else since I don't know if Fox's Bair has a sweet-spot or not.

 

[Djent]

M2K vs. ESAM was ... interesting. While the final outcome mostly came down to player psychology, I still think the flow of the matches (especially during WF) was similar to what this thread was expecting. From the amount of time ESAM controlled the pace of first set (like 75% IIRC) the MU looked genuinely miserable for Diddy. That being said, there were some mitigating factors that came into play during Grand Finals.

Spoiler

WF: 3-2
GF1: 3-1
GF2: 3-0

Which brings me to the obvious question: how does Pikachu deal with higher recoveries? ESAM really struggled to edgeguard M2K effectively during the second 2 sets after landing 2 zero-to-death edgeguards during their first. This is striking because Diddy's recovery, although good, isn't the best. In the post-game interview, M2K said that Zero told him to "recover high" all the time. Is there a way for Pikachu to get around this?

Pikachu wasn't getting edgeguarded, had a better time avoiding kills from throw set-ups, and could zip all over and around Diddy going mostly unpunished. If there's an answer to "recover high," then I see this MU being an easy 6:4 for Pikachu. If not, then it's probably evenish, since Diddy's weight + rage actually was an issue due to Pika's inability to set up early kills outside of edgeguarding.

 

[Ffamran]

Aside from Thunder, I can't think of much for Pikachu to deal with people recovering from high up. That's if I read your post correctly.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Either using Thunder or using Pika's good mobility to run down and juggle people recovering high seem to be the two best options. Pika can definitely punish people going high in terms of building damage, but can't really kill that way until high %s, so going high is still a good idea because it lets you avoid getting gimped early by TJ and stuff. It doesn't let you off the hook completely, but it does diminish the effectiveness of Pika's gimp game and forces it to take stocks the hard way.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I would suspect pikachu would have to be pretty far out to catch him. Thunder doesn't seem to work from what I saw. Didn't catch GF only saw WF. But given the set count m2k adjusted extremely well from WF it seems

 

[Timbers]

Fox's Bair kills fairly well, but I don't see it being used as much...Is it because of range or something else since I don't know if Fox's Bair has a sweet-spot or not.

It's a good move, and pretty safe on shield. A fast fallspeed makes bair pressure on platforms really nice.

That said, it's a linear move and Fox's fall speed doesn't give you a huge window on when you can throw it out, you are incredibly committed to bair until you land, and it doesn't have SO MUCH range (or speed) that you can challenge very many fairs/bairs/disjoints. With his ground speed, it's easy and preferable to stay under opponents and challenge them with uairs (more damage, safer to challenge from underneath, realistic kill power)...and bair is never a move you want to use offstage due to Fox's fall speed and less than stellar recovery.

It's a good move when the opportunity presents itself, but it's not often?

M2K vs. ESAM was ... interesting. While the final outcome mostly came down to player psychology, I still think the flow of the matches (especially during WF) was similar to what this thread was expecting. From the amount of time ESAM controlled the pace of first set (like 75% IIRC) the MU looked genuinely miserable for Diddy. That being said, there were some mitigating factors that came into play during Grand Finals.

Spoiler

WF: 3-2
GF1: 3-1
GF2: 3-0

Which brings me to the obvious question: how does Pikachu deal with higher recoveries? ESAM really struggled to edgeguard M2K effectively during the second 2 sets after landing 2 zero-to-death edgeguards during their first. This is striking because Diddy's recovery, although good, isn't the best. In the post-game interview, M2K said that Zero told him to "recover high" all the time. Is there a way for Pikachu to get around this?

Pikachu wasn't getting edgeguarded, had a better time avoiding kills from throw set-ups, and could zip all over and around Diddy going mostly unpunished. If there's an answer to "recover high," then I see this MU being an easy 6:4 for Pikachu. If not, then it's probably evenish, since Diddy's weight + rage actually was an issue due to Pika's inability to set up early kills outside of edgeguarding.

Despite edgeguarding, I think it was apparent that Pikachu was handling the match effectively. Unfortunately, there were like...3 SD's from ESAM in the first GF set? ESAM mentioned something about receiving unfortunate news during the GF, so that may have also come into effect. Either way, SDing 3 times in a single set has got to grate on the nerves.

There's a scarce amount of characters that can afford to recover high without taking some serious punishment anyways. As much as people try to pin Diddy as having a "mediocre" recovery, it's still better than a lot of other characters.

 

[Ffamran]

Ooo... Pikachu's aerials don't kill that early. If I'm reading the chart correctly, then the earliest Pikachu can kill would be with a Nair and Dair at the upper 180%...

Also, why isn't that thread stickied? This thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...-every-character-now-with-ko-percents.383550/.

It's a good move, and pretty safe on shield. A fast fallspeed makes bair pressure on platforms really nice.

That said, it's a linear move and Fox's fall speed doesn't give you a huge window on when you can throw it out, you are incredibly committed to bair until you land, and it doesn't have SO MUCH range (or speed) that you can challenge very many fairs/disjoints. With his ground speed, it's easy and preferable to stay under opponents and challenge them with uairs (more damage, safer to challenge from underneath, realistic kill power)...and bair is never a move you want to use offstage due to Fox's fall speed and less than stellar recovery.

It's a good move when the opportunity presents itself, but it's not often?

Probably For Glory reasons which is a bad thing to reference anyway... and I don't remember videos I've watched where Fox killed with a Bair. It's mostly Up Smash, Side Smash, and Uair from what I remember. Just checked and if I'm reading it right: it kills at 146% and is a consistent hit.

And it's probably since I play as Falco more which means Bairs are as common as sliced bread.

 

[thehard]

Despite edgeguarding, I think it was apparent that Pikachu was handling the match effectively. Unfortunately, there were like...3 SD's from ESAM in the first GF set? ESAM mentioned something about receiving unfortunate news during the GF, so that may have also come into effect.

Wow, that sucks. Hope things turn out OK for him. I lost some respect for him from ragequitting one of the matches but that might have been due to the bad news; I take it back if so.

 

[Chuva]

Manny's Sonic vs Reflex's Wario was the most ResidentSleeper set I've had the displeasure of watching in this game. The way Sonic can potentially lame and stall so many characters on flat stages is disgusting, and we're talking about Wario who isn't exactly a slow character with poor punish options.

Just adding my quota of "**** Sonic" salt to this thread. Carry on.

 

[Ffamran]

Lame as a verb?

Yeah, I kind of hate that, but I thought it was usually more of a For Glory thing where Sonics, Jigglypuffs, and Ikes force you into a literal quick draw situation like westerns or samurai films, except not epic and more annoying. Granted, at least Ike can't really do much unless it's Sudden Death and Jigglypuff will fall if Rollout doesn't connect with anything, but with Sonic, he has much more control with Spin Dash and Spin Charge.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

woah drama in this thread.
some people gotta reamember this is the competitive inpressions, not the deffintive opinions thread.

 

[Sinister Slush]

While yes it was for potentially getting into GF, Manny almost timed out M2k 3 or so times.

 

[Chuva]

woah drama in this thread.
some people gotta reamember this is the competitive inpressions, not the deffintive opinions thread.

Is this in response to my post?

If so, it's still in the scope of competitive impressions, as in "Sonic can potentially make the neutral game utterly impossible for certain characters specially in certain stages". I don't think Reflex could do anything to punish him other than throwing out Bairs hoping it would hit Sonic mid-Spin dash jump. His Wario looked really helpless in that match in omega Windy Hill.

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ ChronoPenguin - I was going to post but then you started posting all this hype ass intelligent shieeeee ~ and im like.....

*fap fap fap

good ish bruh

On topic - Honestly it doesnt even matter. Marth and Lucina have virtually the same match-up ratios.

 

[Trifroze]

I was arguing a while back how Diddy's recovery isn't a weakness for him because of how well he can mix it up. Definitely saw some of that today. It isn't great but there's no way a recovery that allows you to choose how to recover with decent tools is bad.

Similarly, I don't think the lack of kill power is a weakness for Sheik because it isn't really true. Killing at 140-150% with your spammable aerial isn't exactly bad, plus her down b, up b, bair and uair kill much earlier than that.

Pikachu might suffer from the lack of kill power though since he only really has 2 reliable kill moves which are both smashes. They can both be basically avoided with a single playstyle and he has no answer to that aside from thunder gimmicks which people will adapt to, even ESAM said he doesn't know how people get hit by it. I don't buy the Pikachu hype quite yet even though he seems very good otherwise.

Kill power or setups, high damage output, good recovery, high mobility and good neutral options (projectiles/range/hitboxes/grabs etc) are probably what makes a top tier in this game. Only Sheik, Diddy, Sonic, Yoshi and ZSS could be argued to have all of those. Even then, Yoshi and ZSS have slow grabs. Ness, Falcon, Luigi and Fox have bad recovery, and while Luigi's close range game is amazing he also lacks mobility. Pikachu lacks kill options. Lucario and Rosalina are unique characters who are top tier at their best and low at their worst, of course tilted more towards the top because it's affected by player skill. Wario has poor range with no zoning options while Villager lacks proper close range game, especially grab. Pits are really all-around, perhaps lacking the most in mobility. Mario has poor range and low damage output despite his combo game. Mega Man has average recovery and mobility. Just my opinions on weaknesses of perceived top characters based on the experience I have.

tl;dr: If anyone is a contender for Sheik/Diddy tier by my theory it's Sonic.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sonic...is....cancer.

This is coming from someone that A ranked every mission in Sonic Adventure 2. The fist game I ever beat in my entire life was Sonic 3.

The blue blur makes the game suck.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Tonight i just played a lot of battles against a friend of mine. I was using Swordfighter and man when I won it was because i was trying oh so hard. Anyways you guys remember Swordfighter's U-air? That really powerful attack that they have? Turns out it also has relatively low landing lag so you can go for mixups and frame traps. Seriously I feel that Swordfighter's meta is going to revolve around that move.

Killing Sheik at 120% out of a short hop yes please.

Dair and Nair are decent too.

 

[Makorel]

Kill power or setups, high damage output, good recovery, high mobility and good neutral options

I wanna guess...Mii Brawler?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I wanna guess...Mii Brawler?

Shhh don't say his name. It's like Voldemort.

Im very curious about how a technical Peach player measures up in Sm4sh.

 

[Thinkaman]

Is this in terms of damage or knockback? (Or both?) I'm unfamiliar with the details of how Deep Breathing buffs WFT's attacks.

Increases damage (and thus knockback accordingly) by 1.15x.

Deep Breathing also makes her frame 5 bair one of the strongest aerial moves in the game. The only stronger ones are, in order:

Zelda bair (f6)
Zelda fair (f9)
Falcon knee (f14)
Bowser bair (f9)
Ganon bair (f10)
Charizard bair (f14)
Jigglypuff bair (f12)

Literally stronger than everything else, including every heavy aerial and other big stuff like Samus or Robin bair.


DB doesn't help dair much though--WFT dair is legitimately one of the worst moves in the game.

 

[Ffamran]

Aww, but why is WFT's Dair overall, a bad move? It seems to do fine as a KO move and a meteor. Range? Start-up? Power as a meteor?

Edit: Frame 20, 14%, and I don't know the landing lag...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Shhh don't say his name. It's like Voldemort.

Im very curious about how a technical Peach player measures up in Sm4sh.

I'm almost certain Peach will do well once her players figure out how to best abuse her options. She kind of reminds me of Jigglypuff, minus the wall of pain. Light Veggie is also a very interesting custom that I think has potential if customs ever get off the ground on a wide scale.

Increases damage (and thus knockback accordingly) by 1.15x.

Deep Breathing also makes her frame 5 bair one of the strongest aerial moves in the game. The only stronger ones are, in order:

Zelda bair (f6)
Zelda fair (f9)
Falcon knee (f14)
Bowser bair (f9)
Ganon bair (f10)
Charizard bair (f14)
Jigglypuff bair (f12)

Literally stronger than everything else, including every heavy aerial and other big stuff like Samus or Robin bair.


DB doesn't help dair much though--WFT dair is legitimately one of the worst moves in the game.

So barring Shulk and his Arts KB is directly tied to damage dealt? That's a fun tidbit that I think I've actually read before now that I think about it, thanks. It seems like WFT is supposed to struggle with killing by design unless she uses Deep Breathing first, but I can't see her having much luck fishing for hits before it wears off. It lasts what, 8 seconds?

 

[dragontamer]

Ooo... Pikachu's aerials don't kill that early. If I'm reading the chart correctly, then the earliest Pikachu can kill would be with a Nair and Dair at the upper 180%...

Also, why isn't that thread stickied? This thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...-every-character-now-with-ko-percents.383550/.

The KO Percentages were calculated (or measured) from center-stage on 3DS. As most attacks were calculated, take it with a grain of salt.

Anyway, Pikachu's Nair should be getting used off stage, which means in practice, it will be KOing as early as 80% if Pikachu makes a good off-stage read. When you're very close to the edge of the screen, moves with low KB are still enough to solidify a KO.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Even shulk is affected by damage KB.
Shield and Speed reduce shulks knockback
Just Buster and Smash are unaffected.

Does WFT B-air kill faster then Smash Shulk B-air? Eh might as well test myself.

EDIT: I should be more accurate. Last I heard from aerodrome Smash was something like a 16% multiplier on shulks total KB compared to Vanilla. It might just be an even higher modifier to account for the damage loss.

 

[Lavani]

So barring Shulk and his Arts KB is directly tied to damage dealt? That's a fun tidbit that I think I've actually read before now that I think about it, thanks. It seems like WFT is supposed to struggle with killing by design unless she uses Deep Breathing first, but I can't see her having much luck fishing for hits before it wears off. It lasts what, 8 seconds?

Not that I've looked into it extensively, but it still comes into play with monado arts. Smash stance Power Vision countering a Bob-omb has less knockback against a 0% opponent than stanceless does.

Also what ChronoPenguin said.

 

[Ffamran]

Shhh don't say his name. It's like Voldemort.

Im very curious about how a technical Peach player measures up in Sm4sh.

Check out this video that @Antonykun linked a while back and I re-linked a few pages back when I was talking about how certain characters aren't seeing much action despite being good like Peach and Ike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLHOu9mynuA.

There's also Pink Fresh's Peach you can find on VGBootCamp and recently, IloD used Peach and the video was just posted recently on VGBC.

Point is: Peach is dangerous in the right hands, but at a basic level, she's good due to her versatility; good aerials, good zoning, lots of kill options, and she's mobile, especially in the air, but Peach is a very technical character.

 

[Yonder]

Ness, Falcon, Luigi and Fox have bad recovery, and while Luigi's close range game is amazing he also lacks mobility. .

In all fairness, if Luigi players improve their button mashing skills and don't have to use their second jumps, his recovery becomes a lot more usable. Boss for example, rarely ever dies to gimps. Of course, he's the only one who can mash fast enough so far, so I see that flaw. [Also customs, but those aren't added here] But yeah, his mobility and range hold him back from top. Also, I thought Fox's recovery was decent this time around.

 

[Thinkaman]

Aww, but why is WFT's Dair overall, a bad move? It seems to do fine as a KO move and a meteor. Range? Start-up? Power as a meteor?

It's on the weaker side, damage-wise, of dedicated meteors in the game. It only does 14%.

It's on the weaker side, KB-wise, of dedicated meteors in the game. We're looking at an on-stage KO % of about 230%.

The spike is one of the smallest hitboxes in the game, particularly compared to other Spikes. It is almost a quarter the size of the spike hitboxes for DK, Diddy, Ganon, Bowser, and others--to say nothing of ROB's.

It one of the slowest aerials in the game--actually one of the slowest moves period. At frame 20, the only aerials in the entire game of this speed are ROB uair (f26), Mega Man dair (f23), Dedede dair (f22), and ROB dair (also f20, but spikes with one of the biggest hitboxes in the entire game.)

It has a poor, 8% sourspot. It does not spike grounded opponents, instead hitting them for only 13% at 45 degrees.


The only good news is that it can SH AC. (Like Rosalina, Diddy, Zelda, Samus, (Dark) Pit, Duck Hunt, ROB, Villager, Olimar, Brawler, and technically Little Mac.) But unlike all of those dairs except ROB and Brawler, WFT dair cannot spike grounded opponents for punishment setups--which is the entire point/benefit of them auto-canceling really.

I can't think of a single situation where I'd ever use it, except to spike an off-stage opponent with zero options.

 

[Makorel]

In all fairness, if Luigi players improve their button mashing skills and don't have to use their second jumps, his recovery becomes a lot more usable.

There's button mashing, and then there's attempting to push the human body hard enough to break the laws of physics. I have played and beaten multiple Mario Party games as well as the pushing mini-game in Star Fox Adventures and I cannot press the button fast enough to get that sort of lift out of Luigi Cyclone. I don't know how Boss does it. My working theory is that he is either a space alien or some sort of minor deity.

 

[Thinkaman]

So barring Shulk and his Arts KB is directly tied to damage dealt? That's a fun tidbit that I think I've actually read before now that I think about it, thanks.

Knockback is basically Base + Growth * (Damage + 4). That's more or less what it rounds to.

The KO Percentages were calculated (or measured) from center-stage on 3DS. As most attacks were calculated, take it with a grain of salt.

Actually, from starting spawn position. In training mode, so no stale moves or rage.

This is mostly a concern for moves that tend to KO in favorable positions, particularly all uairs.

as well as the pushing mini-game in Star Fox Adventures

THE HORROR. I had to shake the convex side of a spoon against my controller to beat this.

 

[Ffamran]

@ Thinkaman , is Zelda's Dair hitbox smaller? ... Once again, this makes me question the game's design, but whatever.

I think that it not meteoring on grounded opponents is another "good" thing about it since it can kill horizontally as well as vertically. Granted, its slowness makes it incredibly risky, but if someone forgets that, then it could be one rude awakening.

Anyway, is there a list of meteors ranked by knockback? Acceleration-wise if such a thing exists.

 

[Yonder]

There's button mashing, and then there's attempting to push the human body hard enough to break the laws of physics. I have played and beaten multiple Mario Party games as well as the pushing mini-game in Star Fox Adventures and I cannot press the button fast enough to get that sort of lift out of Luigi Cyclone. I don't know how Boss does it. My working theory is that he is either a space alien or some sort of minor deity.

I just cooked up my theory and posted it on the Luigi boards on how Boss actually might do it. I'll post it here though:

Maybe Boss is related to this guy...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ4lmAFB7d4

In the video, the guy hits the button 16 times a second. So Boss needs 12 for the rise, I believe, which he can do. When you look at the video, there is a certain technique you can do to accomplish it, but it takes a LOT of practice to do consistently, and you need strong wrist.

First, notice how the guy does not actually move his finger at all? You have to vibrate the muscles in your wrist, not try tapping the button rapidly with your finger, it won't work. To get that rise, you HAVE to vibrate your wrist. Hard to explain, but if you concentrate your muscles in the wrist, your hand will vibrate very fast. With your finger on a button, it will automatically sync with your wrist vibration and mash the button without any applied force from the finger, acting from the wrist instead. I've tested it myself and I can do the wrist vibration, my taps per second do go up while using it, my record was 9/second once, but I'm not great at it. And I can't do it consistently, because it takes strong wrists and lots of concentration to constantly get that vibration in the write. Also, I don't know of the health repercussions from constantly doing it...

But anyways, that's my theory on how Boss does it. From watching the video and from personal tests and experience.

 

[Conda]

For Luigi Cyclone, don't you just activate it while ascending from a double jump to make it easier to rise? You don't have to mash at inhuman speeds this way, at least this is how I thought it worked in Smash 4.

 

[Yonder]

For Luigi Cyclone, don't you just activate it while ascending from a double jump to make it easier to rise? You don't have to mash at inhuman speeds this way, at least this is how I thought it worked in Smash 4.

Yes, but you lose your double jump, thus being easier to gimp.

 

[Makorel]

@ Y Yonder I actually do something like that which involves vibrating my hand to make my thumb push faster, although that position that guy's got does seem to hit the button ever so slightly faster just from trying it out a couple seconds ago, and with practice I guess it could be doable. I still don't envy anyone who has to throw out that sort of dexterity check in the heat of battle.

 

[Kofu]

It's on the weaker side, damage-wise, of dedicated meteors in the game. It only does 14%.

It's on the weaker side, KB-wise, of dedicated meteors in the game. We're looking at an on-stage KO % of about 230%.

The spike is one of the smallest hitboxes in the game, particularly compared to other Spikes. It is almost a quarter the size of the spike hitboxes for DK, Diddy, Ganon, Bowser, and others--to say nothing of ROB's.

It one of the slowest aerials in the game--actually one of the slowest moves period. At frame 20, the only aerials in the entire game of this speed are ROB uair (f26), Mega Man dair (f23), Dedede dair (f22), and ROB dair (also f20, but spikes with one of the biggest hitboxes in the entire game.)

It has a poor, 8% sourspot. It does not spike grounded opponents, instead hitting them for only 13% at 45 degrees.


The only good news is that it can SH AC. (Like Rosalina, Diddy, Zelda, Samus, (Dark) Pit, Duck Hunt, ROB, Villager, Olimar, Brawler, and technically Little Mac.) But unlike all of those dairs except ROB and Brawler, WFT dair cannot spike grounded opponents for punishment setups--which is the entire point/benefit of them auto-canceling really.

I can't think of a single situation where I'd ever use it, except to spike an off-stage opponent with zero options.

Yeah, it's a pretty bad move. But I've killed people onstage with the non-meteor sourspot before. Additionally, there's no way ROB's UAir hits on frame 26. Looking at Dantarion's data, the first hitbox comes out on frame 7 and the last one on frame 26.

About Deep Breathing, I feel it lasts too short to be effective. Remember Rosalina pre-patch, how she could easily stall out the 8 seconds until Luna respawned? Well, with Deep Breathing, most opponents can stall the 8 seconds until it wears off.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Is this in response to my post?

If so, it's still in the scope of competitive impressions, as in "Sonic can potentially make the neutral game utterly impossible for certain characters specially in certain stages". I don't think Reflex could do anything to punish him other than throwing out Bairs hoping it would hit Sonic mid-Spin dash jump. His Wario looked really helpless in that match in omega Windy Hill.

lol its more in response to the last few pages really.

 

[Thinkaman]

@ Thinkaman , is Zelda's Dair hitbox smaller? ... Once again, this makes me question the game's design, but whatever.

I think that it not meteoring on grounded opponents is another "good" thing about it since it can kill horizontally as well as vertically. Granted, its slowness makes it incredibly risky, but if someone forgets that, then it could be one rude awakening.

It's strictly inferior to bair for this purpose, except that bair doesn't SH AC.

A frame 20 move with a tiny hitbox that kills at a higher percent than f-tilt is pretty worthless.

Anyway, is there a list of meteors ranked by knockback? Acceleration-wise if such a thing exists.

Not really, but I'll make you a crappy one real quick.

            |   |   |   |   |
            |   |   |   |   |
            |  u|  d|   |   |
            |  t|  t|  f|  d|
            |  i|  i|  a|  a|
            |  l|  l|  i|  i|
            |  t|  t|  r|  r|
------------+---+---+---+---+
     captain|228|   |   |191|
------------+---+---+---+---+
      dedede|   |   |   |190|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       diddy|   |   |   |173|
------------+---+---+---+---+
      donkey|   |   |161|169|
------------+---+---+---+---+
    duckhunt|   |   |   |327|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       falco|   |   |   |267|
------------+---+---+---+---+
         fox|   |   |   |   |
------------+---+---+---+---+
   gamewatch|   |   |   |217|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       ganon|   |   |   |130|
------------+---+---+---+---+
    gekkouga|   |   |   |323|
------------+---+---+---+---+
         ike|   |   |   |190|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       kirby|   |   |   |707|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       koopa|   |   |   |150|
------------+---+---+---+---+
     koopajr|   |   |   |   |
------------+---+---+---+---+
        link|   |299|   |206|
------------+---+---+---+---+
   littlemac|   |   |   |711|
------------+---+---+---+---+
    lizardon|   |   |   |182|
------------+---+---+---+---+
     lucario|   |   |   |   |
------------+---+---+---+---+
      lucina|   |   |   |243|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       luigi|   |   |   |317|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       mario|   |   |226|   |
------------+---+---+---+---+
      mariod|   |   |   |   |
------------+---+---+---+---+
       marth|   |   |   |231|
------------+---+---+---+---+
  metaknight|   |   |   |   |
------------+---+---+---+---+
  miifighter|   |   |   |261|
------------+---+---+---+---+
   miigunner|   |   |   |207|
------------+---+---+---+---+
miiswordsman|   |   |   |   |
------------+---+---+---+---+
    murabito|   |   |   |249|
------------+---+---+---+---+
        ness|   |   |   |309|
------------+---+---+---+---+
      pacman|   |   |   |   |
------------+---+---+---+---+
    palutena|   |   |   |276|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       peach|   |265|   |   |
------------+---+---+---+---+
     pikachu|   |   |   |   |
------------+---+---+---+---+
      pikmin|   |   |   |   |
------------+---+---+---+---+
         pit|   |   |   |347|
------------+---+---+---+---+
        pitb|   |   |   |347|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       purin|   |   |   |   |
------------+---+---+---+---+
      reflet|   |   |   |252|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       robot|   |   |   |210|
------------+---+---+---+---+
     rockman|   |   |   |254|
------------+---+---+---+---+
     rosetta|   |   |   |515|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       samus|177|   |   |212|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       sheik|   |   |   |328|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       shulk|   |   |   |263|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       sonic|   |   |   |333|
------------+---+---+---+---+
   szerosuit|   |   |   |403|
------------+---+---+---+---+
    toonlink|   |   |   |182|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       wario|   |   |   |   |
------------+---+---+---+---+
     wiifit+|   |   |435|201|
------------+---+---+---+---+
      wiifit|   |   |493|231|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       yoshi|   |   |224|779|
------------+---+---+---+---+
       zelda|   |   |   |241|
------------+---+---+---+---+

(Those numbers are calculated KO %s.)

Additionally, there's no way ROB's UAir hits on frame 26. Looking at Dantarion's data, the first hitbox comes out on frame 7 and the last one on frame 26.

Huh, there seems to be a bug in my scripts that affects only this move... will investigate.

 

[Kofu]

Huh, there seems to be a bug in my scripts that affects only this move... will investigate.

No worries, just seeing ROB's UAir listed as basically the slowest aerial in the game didn't seem right. Thought it might have stood out when you were listing slow aerials so I just brought it to your attention.