Character Competitive Impressions

[Road Death Wheel]

laaaaaaaawdy that'd be cute. I would settle for a downB THAT I DIDN'T NEED TO GET AN ENGAGEMENT RING FOR WHEN I PRESSED THE BUTTON (forgive me for having commitment issues with punishable moves)

lol now worries but that move would be legit insane if it did not have endlag. it already detroys ness's life durring reovery cuz u can use it as a meat bag.

 

[Tucan]

Does anyone have an idea on peach in the meta game? Has a peach main, I want to hear what people think of peach in the meta game so far. I think she has a lot of untapped potential.

 

[HeroMystic]

Basically in a nut shell what is being said is that samus's cqc is not for actually contesting against others cqc but more apart of her stage control in a form. Independently her range game or her cqc is lack luster but they mesh together quite well to make, well somthing. (nobody else is really like this i don't know what to call it.)

It would be called Zoning. More specifically, Aggressive Zoning.

While a character like DHD would prefer to zone passively and rely on his damage per hit, Samus uses her projectiles to bait openings for combos. A simple example is when opponents hide in their shields in anticipation of a Charge Shot, and you can just get a free grab and do a D-throw combo, conditioning them to watch out for grabs, and then using Charge Shot when they don't expect it. Samus' moveset is surprisingly good for this, though it is mindgame-heavy.

But yes, Samus shouldn't be engaging in closed-range neutral with other characters. Absolutely nothing in her moveset allows her to do this, which is why Up-B OOS is very important to get people off her.

 

[Nocally]

Does anyone have an idea on peach in the meta game? Has a peach main, I want to hear what people think of peach in the meta game so far. I think she has a lot of untapped potential.

That's kind of the problem with Peach at the moment. A lot of people believe she has untapped potential, which doesn't make her relevant in the current meta since her potential needs to be unlocked before she goes anywhere. She does seem solid overall, so there is that.

 

[Locke 06]

Samus' moveset is surprisingly good for this, though it is mindgame-heavy.

And this is why she's so fun to play, yet not a great competitive character. She's incredibly punishable when you mindgame wrong, and the mind game relies on a setup. Charge shot is amazing, and you can make reads from across the stage and convert... but then you have to start over if you miss. Throw combos are very solid, but you have to land a f16 grab. I think it's hard to consistently mindgame through an entire tournament (although doable). Add in that there are characters that don't care about her mind games, and she falls to pieces in the meta.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Mind explaining why? 'Cause I don't have all of her customs - I think I have one - and only being able to observe from older videos doesn't exactly help. Others might fall under this too or just don't know how useful or how to use her customs. I only heard of that "Falco laser, but better" custom and seeing Luma Warp from time to time.

Luma warp falco laser and the other side B are really good. The side B where she shots a big star seems really good . So now you have a giant star luma and Rosalina. She can use the side B for pressure or for defense. It's borderline unfair and with GP behind her she's really covers a lot of options.

 

[TriTails]

will probably make 's life hell (at least until he manages to get in)

People are saying this, so I want to make sure.

I honestly think Luigi is at least even or even advantaged against Ike. What is so special about him that makes him advantaged against Luigi? Everybody else seem to say so.

 

[Nobie]

This is just me messing around in training mode and such, but I noticed that Samus's forward tilt can make Luigi slide really far on block. I mean, that's Luigi's property in general, but it seems interesting that such a basic and utilitarian tilt can keep Luigi out.

Also, another question: We talk about characters being good or not in neutral, advantage, and disadvantage. Which characters are mediocre to bad in the advantaged state? Would Mega Man count because of how frequently matches reset to neutral with him even as he's laying on the pressure?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

People are saying this, so I want to make sure.

I honestly think Luigi is at least even or even advantaged against Ike. What is so special about him that makes him advantaged against Luigi? Everybody else seem to say so.

Very short explanation:

Lagless wall of massive disjointed aerials (that also take out fireballs) while having superior movement speed + our moves becoming safer thanks to the combination of high knockback and disjointedness vs no traction Luigi. Throw in a good combo game on top of that as well as Eruption having a fairly easy time hitting Luigi's recovery.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth goes even with Luigi and Ike has superior range, damage, similar edge guarding and safer pokes. Also good jab combo so he is not afraid to go to to toe with Luigi up close.

I mean...how does Luigi get in consistently other then random Cyclone?

When Luigi DOES get in, he does his thing. I think Ike controls the flow though.

 

[Nobie]

Marth goes even with Luigi and Ike has superior range, damage, similar edge guarding and safer pokes. Also good jab combo so he is not afraid to go to to toe with Luigi up close.

I mean...how does Luigi get in consistently other then random Cyclone?

When Luigi DOES get in, he does his thing. I think Ike controls the flow though.

We've been talking about how when Luigi gets in he does serious damage, and that Meta Knight is great at getting out of uncomfortable positions. Would this mean that Meta Knight does well against Luigi, or is the need for Meta Knight to get in close always going to put him at serious risk?

 

[Xuan Wu]

I think we should first consider what made the Luigi match-up favorable for Ike in SSBB. Then we can think about how their respective attributes have changed, if at all, that now makes it "even" or "Luigi's favor".

^-^

 

[Emblem Lord]

Luigi's combos are..combos. He isn't relying on set-ups most of the time. When he hits you, he hits you. You deal with it.

So in that case MK being able to get out of bad spots doesn't matter. Cuz you know....

hitstun and stuff.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Marth goes even with Luigi and Ike has superior range, damage, similar edge guarding and safer pokes. Also good jab combo so he is not afraid to go to to toe with Luigi up close.

I mean...how does Luigi get in consistently other then random Cyclone?

When Luigi DOES get in, he does his thing. I think Ike controls the flow though.

Can't Sword Fighter apply all of this except for the Jab combo (since his jab is slow) while threatening Luigi with D-air off-stage.
Given SF has the same speed N-air, a Faster U-air, a Faster D-air, and a faster F-air as well as a faster dtilt when compared to Ike. With also similar AC windows.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hell prolly.

For the record, I'm one of the few that never jumped on the Sword Fighter is bunz train.

I don't think we knew enough about his tools to judge him. That nair though. That nair is sick.

 

[warionumbah2]

Would say he goes even or a slight advantage to luigi.

 

[Firefoxx]

I've been thinking about this for a while today. What would Meta Knight want from customs? Cause his default kit seems really awesome.

 

[Antonykun]

Hell prolly.

For the record, I'm one of the few that never jumped on the Sword Fighter is bunz train.

I don't think we knew enough about his tools to judge him. That nair though. That nair is sick.

Swordfighter's Nair gives me some mixed feelings.
On one hand it coves a lot of range and has highish knockback so you can force neutral
On the other hand its super slow and does not have enough range to constantly use it in neutral. Also that 6% is a little too weak IMO.

 

[Ultinarok]

Does anyone know the Ike/Shulk matchup? They are constantly compared on here for their similar niche and several similar attacks, so I was wondering if anyone knows the MU ratio. I'm hard pressed to say that its dead even, as Shulk has better range, similar power, his nair, Monado trickery and a counter, while Ike has Quick Draw, lagless aerial play, a recovery that's much harder to gimp and more varied, is heavier (unless Shulk goes Shield) and has a counter of his own. Each have attacks that have less lag than the other, with Shulk's quick utilt, dtilt, nair and (relative to Ike) side-smash, and Ike's bair, fair, grab and throw game, and jab.

It honestly has to be a dead heat, could go either way. I think the only swordsman that may gain advantage over the two of them in this game is MK for his raw speed, combos, and inability to be put in unsafe situations.

 

[Smog Frog]

shulk wins the matchup because he has the bigger sword

 

[HeavyLobster]

Also, another question: We talk about characters being good or not in neutral, advantage, and disadvantage. Which characters are mediocre to bad in the advantaged state? Would Mega Man count because of how frequently matches reset to neutral with him even as he's laying on the pressure?

is really the only one I can think of that's outright bad in advantaged state. Most other characters scare me once they get in, though a lot of that has to do with the fact that my characters tend to be horrifically weak to juggles and combos. and haven't seemed all that scary in advantage to me. at least has decent edgeguarding and Uppercut setups that can be pretty scary, though admittedly he's not quite at the level of some other characters in advantage. 's advantage game is pretty character-dependent, as he can demolish fast-fallers on the ground, but floatier characters can more easily reset due to his inability to chase them in the air. Most characters in this game do have a punish game worth respecting, however.

 

[Nairo]

This was the question, @ Nairo . I just legit find the character's combination of poor mobility, floatiness, and slow predictable wind-up on the Fire+Thunder projectile game to all spell, theoretically, a death sentence for character quality, even WITH the levin sword. Adding the arbitrary charge system and a predictable, incredibly gimpable recovery and I struggle to see what this character can do.

Il just say a bit since I dont have much time to at the moment but better than nothing. Maybe on paper it may seem like its slow predictable but its not that simple to punish as you make it out to be if the Robin knows the right places to do the moves (except like sheik who is hard to catch with a good arc fire lolol). Her SH is pretty good to move around with ease. With arc fire/thunder his/her combo game is pretty good and can lead to anything such as both BS/LS fair uair bair fsmash dsmash usmash(depending on where you hit em). Robin's discarded tomes/LS can also be used to improve her pressure game and they deal good damage if you hit them with it too. People may think that his/her nair is not good but its a great gimping tool. A fast move that basically swats the person offstage. Characters with good vertical recovery but not the best horizontal recoveries can get gimped at early %. (Off the top of my head characters: Mario Luigi Shulk Marth Lucina Ike Falcon Ganondorf Megaman) missing more I believe but you get the point. Yeah Robins biggest problem is her recovery since it can be easy to hit. SMALL WRITE UP BUT THERE'S MORE TO IT BUT I GOT TO GO!

 

[A2ZOMG]

is really the only one I can think of that's outright bad in advantaged state. Most other characters scare me once they get in, though a lot of that has to do with the fact that my characters tend to be horrifically weak to juggles and combos. and haven't seemed all that scary in advantage to me. at least has decent edgeguarding and Uppercut setups that can be pretty scary, though admittedly he's not quite at the level of some other characters in advantage. 's advantage game is pretty character-dependent, as he can demolish fast-fallers on the ground, but floatier characters can more easily reset due to his inability to chase them in the air. Most characters in this game do have a punish game worth respecting, however.

Zelda's positive state is frankly one of the better ones in the game. If you watch how Nairo plays for instance, he demonstrates that Zelda can be absolutely devastating during any read airdodge, and that even outside of D-throw's guaranteed combos (D-throw U-air does a massive 21 by itself and can potentially be a KO option), he can get trap setups from D-throw which lead to kicks on a read.

She also has above average edgeguarding when she's able to actually edgeguard very deep, and her D-air even sourspotted can be lethal to several recoveries. Properly spaced Up-Bs also are great for catching landings as well.

Zelda has problems, but the positive state really isn't one of them.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Zelda's positive state is frankly one of the better ones in the game. If you watch how Nairo plays for instance, he demonstrates that Zelda can be absolutely devastating during any read airdodge, and that even outside of D-throw's guaranteed combos (D-throw U-air does a massive 21 by itself and can potentially be a KO option), he can get trap setups from D-throw which lead to kicks on a read.

She also has above average edgeguarding when she's able to actually edgeguard very deep, and her D-air even sourspotted can be lethal to several recoveries. Properly spaced Up-Bs also are great for catching landings as well.

Zelda has problems, but the positive state really isn't one of them.

I guess I've been playing Zelda wrong, then.

 

[Smog Frog]

can someone enlighten me on what a bad advantaged state entails? i cant fathom how advantage can be bad.

 

[HeavyLobster]

can someone enlighten me on what a bad advantaged state entails? i cant fathom how advantage can be bad.

It means you can't follow up effectively after landing a hit. Characters with bad advantage are ones who can't convert a hit into much of anything and just wind up resetting a lot.

 

[Antonykun]

can someone enlighten me on what a bad advantaged state entails? i cant fathom how advantage can be bad.

It's not so much "bad" as in not good.
Compare Falcon's advantage over Yoshi's
Falcon can utterly maul you in advantage but Yoshi? He'll be lucky to kill you there.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not so much "bad" as in not good.
Compare Falcon's advantage over Yoshi's
Falcon can utterly maul you in advantage but Yoshi? He'll be lucky to kill you there.

Yoshi's positive state tbh is quite excellent even factoring he has throws that are nearly as bad as Link's. His main problem is none of his KO setups except Jab confirms are reliable. He just has a very easy time building damage once he's in the advantage.

Fox imo actually has the worst positive state in the game, but his neutral and negative state are both well above average, making that matter less overall. But really. Fox doesn't have easy setups to bait airdodges, especially not for KOs, and his low edgeguards are both risky and weak.

 

[Smog Frog]

does fox really need to bait airdodges tho? i mean yeah ganon does to an extent, but fox has so many combos that he really doesnt need to bait airdodges to get big damage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Does anyone know the Ike/Shulk matchup? They are constantly compared on here for their similar niche and several similar attacks, so I was wondering if anyone knows the MU ratio. I'm hard pressed to say that its dead even, as Shulk has better range, similar power, his nair, Monado trickery and a counter, while Ike has Quick Draw, lagless aerial play, a recovery that's much harder to gimp and more varied, is heavier (unless Shulk goes Shield) and has a counter of his own. Each have attacks that have less lag than the other, with Shulk's quick utilt, dtilt, nair and (relative to Ike) side-smash, and Ike's bair, fair, grab and throw game, and jab.

It honestly has to be a dead heat, could go either way. I think the only swordsman that may gain advantage over the two of them in this game is MK for his raw speed, combos, and inability to be put in unsafe situations.

Never really discussed it in detail over on the Ike boards much. Probably 50-50. Maybe 45-55 in favour of Shulk because of the Mondo stuff, but Ike still overall has the attack speed advantage, at least in the areas that are important. If they end up right up close to each other, Shulk has no way of trying to battle Ike's jab outside of shielding. And then Ike's Dtilt beats out Shulk's next fastest move after his own jab.

Don't know, could be an interesting match up. I'm positive however that with customs one, Ike edges out Shulk.

 

[warionumbah2]

I've been thinking about this for a while today. What would Meta Knight want from customs? Cause his default kit seems really awesome.

High speed drill is the only custom that isn't straight up bad. Its useful to use in neutral and against projectile users/zoning characters/Rosalina.

The start up frame on this thing is 22f while the default one is 25f and of course it covers ground faster. It keeps that silly hard to punish flip he does when he hits a character(and random stuff like luma and R.O.B's gyro).

1111 is the preferred set for most MK users, since you still got morons chasing MK off stage not knowing how easily the default drill can stage spike.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

i remember some people taking about it, so i deciced to test it out a bit.

But like honestly do these two character even have a negetive state? Like i swear even against some experienced players (even had to call a bud over) but these two are like ghosts in disadvantage. you basically can't kill them in it. Seriously someone look into this.

 

[NairWizard]

Characters who are strong in advantage, disadvantage, and neutral (customs off, no Miis):



Notice a trend?

They're all Top/High Tier except for Meta Knight lol. You could probably argue a few others up in here or a few off, but the point is that it's a very short list full of great characters. Customs expands the list ever so slightly (Mario and Palutena come to mind, as well as some Mii builds), but it's fewer than 10 characters out of a cast of ~51.

Always remember the game states, friends. You won't always be mindlessly making combo videos out of your opponents. Most of your game time will be spent finding a way in (neutral) or minimizing damage taken (disadvantage).

 

[A2ZOMG]

does fox really need to bait airdodges tho? i mean yeah ganon does to an extent, but fox has so many combos that he really doesnt need to bait airdodges to get big damage.

Like, how does Fox get KOs otherwise? Also when you play defensively and ledge reset against Fox constantly, how does he really punish you for it?

His combo game is okay, and his Jab cancel does help him significantly, but I would say in general Fox is a character that doesn't have very easy ways of getting really high reward in most situations.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Characters who are strong in advantage, disadvantage, and neutral (customs off, no Miis):



Notice a trend?

They're all Top/High Tier except for Meta Knight lol. You could probably argue a few others up in here or a few off, but the point is that it's a very short list full of great characters. Customs expands the list ever so slightly (Mario and Palutena come to mind, as well as some Mii builds), but it's fewer than 10 characters out of a cast of ~51.

Always remember the game states, friends. You won't always be mindlessly making combo videos out of your opponents. Most of your game time will be spent finding a way in (neutral) or minimizing damage taken (disadvantage).

It's annoying that Diddy manages to be above average in disadvantage solely because of Monkey Flip. His disadvantaged state would be near Falcon tier without it and the wavebounce shenanigans that can be done off of it. As is it's still an area of relative weakness, but someone like Falcon would kill for an equivalent.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Never really discussed it in detail over on the Ike boards much. Probably 50-50. Maybe 45-55 in favour of Shulk because of the Mondo stuff, but Ike still overall has the attack speed advantage, at least in the areas that are important. If they end up right up close to each other, Shulk has no way of trying to battle Ike's jab outside of shielding. And then Ike's Dtilt beats out Shulk's next fastest move after his own jab.

Don't know, could be an interesting match up. I'm positive however that with customs one, Ike edges out Shulk.

No I'd say 50-50.

Ikes options are just as valid, maybe with the Dif that Ike is one of those characters you can use Monado Shield on and it not simply be a "I dun wanna die" reaction.

It's funny as with them both being disjointed, they can play out of each others jab range entirely less they want to go for grabs and shulk has the advantage when it comes to getting a grab due to Monado Speed. Basically for them to be in jab range of each other, one or both of them is mis-spacing by normal conventions when not aiming for grabs. Plus I'd call Air Slash the more punitive OOS option. However their ranges aren't that different at all, and Ike can very well find himself in shulks space and prepared ot hit earlier with a Dtilt. Which can be jumped over but this creates an interesting decision in the fight itself.

I want to say Ike wins on customs but that's based on presumption since the main concern when I think of that is the Windbox and I haven't tested its counter-play options at all and I am a full believer that Decisive Monado arts is absolutely real life.

 

[Djent]

hey're all Top/High Tier except for Meta Knight lol.

"Victory Top Tier is my destiny!"

Seriously though, you keep calling the good characters early. Reminds me a bit of Chrisis when she posted on the UMvC3 boards.

#ChrisisWasRight

 

[Smooth Criminal]

"Victory Top Tier is my destiny!"

Seriously though, you keep calling the good characters early. Reminds me a bit of Chrisis when she posted on the UMvC3 boards.

#ChrisisWasRight

I remember that, lol

Smooth Criminal

 

[Timbers]

Like, how does Fox get KOs otherwise? Also when you play defensively and ledge reset against Fox constantly, how does he really punish you for it?

His combo game is okay, and his Jab cancel does help him significantly, but I would say in general Fox is a character that doesn't have very easy ways of getting really high reward in most situations.

It's really this, and I wonder what Fox's life in this game will look like after people realize that resetting to ledge is free against Fox, and stop allowing him to frametrap you on stage landings.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Meta Knight isn't strong in neutral wtf