Character Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

It's true. and showed that it is possible to make traditionally strong characters weak by taking away the aspects of their design that made them good. , , and showed that it's possible to make traditionally mediocre characters strong. They still haven't quite figured out how to make heavies, particularly projectileless ones, into strong contenders, but here's hoping the balance patch will change that. I could see the more mobile ones like Bowser, DK, and Zard jumping quite a bit as their issues are easier to fix, but it's hard to balance D3 and Dorf without them winding up as polarized messes who wreck everyone who can't camp them out but still lose to those who can, at least without mobility buffs or reworking stuff like Gordo mechanics.

Many aspects of Marth's design that made him good are still there. Testing has even shown that his sword is the same length, not shorter like people used to say. The dev team just completely trashed Marth's frame data. With Ness and the others I'd argue their designs are quite flexible, not necessarily super strong or super weak. Ness might be the strongest of the 3 since his moves are inherently quite fast and powerful and he has great throws, but huge nerfs lead to his extremely low tier position in Melee. I think Ness, Yoshi and Luigi operate a bit differently in Sm4sh to the previous titles anyway but also, some of their crippling flaws have been addressed in this game, like Ness' grab release stuff.

It's certainly possible to trash the best designed character or make a character with a weak design OP by giving them drastic nerfs or buffs. But it'd take something really, really drastic to make someone as inherently strong as Rosalina, weak. Or even Marth... the frame data on almost every move is worse. I'm on the fence, but you could call that drastic. Take the Ice Climbers; a duo with crazy 0-death combos? Yeah, you could take away Nana's grab to neuter them completely, but that's an extremely drastic change and, I'd argue, changes their design completely. The ICs aren't the best example of a really strong design since I doubt they were ever designed to have their huge chaingrabs, but since they developed into what they did, I think they're an okay example.

 

[PUK]

Soooo... John Numbers

Hell yeah.
He will be in the top 16 EVO and nobody will say WFT is bottom tier ever.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Soooo... John Numbers

My current internet doesn't play well with Twitch, so what happened? I assume he pulled some shenanigans at a tournament or something?

 

[ZeldaMaster]

Is it safe to say that Marth/Lucina are the worst characters in this game?

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Probably not.

 

[Hippieslayer]

My current internet doesn't play well with Twitch, so what happened? I assume he pulled some shenanigans at a tournament or something?

Lost to 6WX very early in tournament, proceeded to win his way into GF against Dabuz where he got owned by Olimar, losing 2 games, then adapting and winning one, then looking like he was going to win the next as well when all of a sudden he SD's twice in a row ^^ Nevertheless he took out numbers of players on his way there, obliterating Wills DK and beating Vinnie making Wii Fit trainer look kinda scary.

 

[Unknownkid]

Lost to 6WX very early in tournament, proceeded to win his way into GF against Dabuz where he got owned by Olimar, losing 2 games, then adapting and winning one, then looking like he was going to win the next as well when all of a sudden he SD's twice in a row ^^ Nevertheless he took out numbers of players on his way there, obliterating Wills DK and beating Vinnie making Wii Fit trainer look kinda scary.

Wait... this was Smash Attack 4?

 

[PUK]

I think so. Videos can be found in the WFT thread

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Didn't Smash Attack 4 happen like a month ago? I think they're just getting around to uploading it now.

 

[Jaxas]

I think so. Videos can be found in the WFT thread

Customs on or off, and if on what moveset?

 

[thehard]

I think a lot of changes, especially the Greninja ones, were less about "oh man this character is too powerful, we gotta do something about it" and more about "We didn't design the character to be this way." It's debatable of course as to whether that's the right decision, but they probably felt that being able to throw out up smashes all day was not quite how Greninja was supposed to play.

This isn't to say that character balance isn't a factor at all (I will be honestly shocked if Diddy comes out of the next patch unscathed), but character "feel" is something that I believe game designers look at as well. If Bowser had a bug that could make him teleport yet still only made him among the top 10 in the game instead of overwhelmingly the best, they'd still probably get rid of it.

(Though if Ganondorf had a teleport glitch and they got rid of it, I'd be legitimately upset because teleporting is Ganondorf's thing in the Zelda games, and they should totally embrace it).

"Cocaine logic is the fallacy that when a thing helps a player win in a game, that that proves it's good design to include in the game."

I laughed when people cried over changes like Mega Man losing Rush hitstun canceling. Like, really? You think this is OK to have in the game? If your character actually desperately needs a buff he/she/it can receive one through normal means. Design and feel are Sakurai's number 1 priority, but a lot of care is being taken to ensure balance this time around too.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Customs on or off, and if on what moveset?

Custom on, and WFT was using Enriched Sun Salutation, Weighted Header, Jumbo Hoops, and Deep Breathing. IDK what the numbers (heh) are though.

 

[andimidna]

Oh jeez
So much wat

Ganondorf actually has an easier experience with Rosalina than Pac-Man, to be fair. He's the type of character like Shulk; you need to wait and bait out Rosalina, because patience is a virtue.

Pls. Since when can a fatty with no projectile outcamp the camping queen. Rosa is a gril scout you'll get know here with this she forces approaches especially I customs.

He's also quite capable of KO'ing Luma pretty easily, making him more dangerous than you would think; using a B-Air, F-Air, U-Air or U-Smash > U-Air combo will get Luma off stage pretty fast.

I see people bringing up killing Luma way too much when talking about MUs and honestly after playing her for months the only time this has ever felt like a relevant factor is when going against characters with something like Mario's bthrow. Pretty sure Dr. Mario and Wario have the same sort of thing, and maybe Luigi's down b too, but other than that really just Everything kills Luma. It just depends what's landed where and says more about the people playing rather than the MU. Which sounds stupid but it feels true. I wanna see a different more experienced Rosa talk about this.
Oh and once again she has far superior mobility and should not be putting herself in range of ganon without luma simply bc she doesn't have to

Since he has no projectiles, he automatically shuts down Gravitational Pull,

...Irrelevant. Gravitational Pull isn't like a Rosa Fundemental that gets shot down, it's just a response to projectiles at long range.

and he would also shut down Luma Shot with any one of his attacks.

C'mon man you can't just say stuff like this.
-fully charged luma shot is invincible (for luma) I guess, wouldn't know for sure bc...
-this move is almost never used. Too risky for luma. Not bad tho.
-how is this character specific in the first place

As for KO'ing Rosalina, I say Ganondorf has the easiest time KO'ing her, especially when Rage is applied. It just takes a couple combos and a Smash attack or Warlock Punch to take a stock from Rosalina if you're very, very patient.

Lol warlock punch
Pretty sure diddy pre70% ass hah hah would be a bit more reliable.

Ganondorf's aerials are safe against Rosalina on ground and in air,

u wat
You misspelled Sheik.

and if he is sent upward, a little Wizard's Foot will KO Rosalina early;

Up air and up tilt are disjointed, so that's not rly a good idea...

but to do this, you'll have to dodge any incoming U-Air attacks by going the direction your back is facing, then hit.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean lol if your trying to go around random up airs gl even then.

In terms of using his Warlock Punch reversed, he can KO Rosalina at an early 17% to 25% with a bit of rage, and 0% if he hits with the closest hitbox to his body, sending Rosalina flying backward (yes, that happens).

Let's be real here- not happening
I doubt she has a move with more than half the startup of warlock punch in cool down.

He has a very easy time edge-guarding Rosalina, and if she's off the edge, he could shut her down easily with all of his aerials. He has a very easy time gimping Rosalina and sending her backwards, and can actually go far and still recover from it. U-Air is especially effective off stage.

Alrigghtt..
I'm done lol.

However, he does have disadvantages against Rosalina, which are the fact he can get constantly thrown and hit with follow-up attacks by Rosalina, and if she does get in, she may do massive damage back. Her Side Special can definitely aid in edge-guarding Ganondorf, and her D-Air could send him far or meteor, and she too has a plethora of attacks that can edge-guard, and very good smashes in the game capable of KO'ing Ganondorf. She is also not an easy character to get grabbed by his Flame Choke suicide grab, and can actually punish him hard for it if he doesn't connect.

Her D-Smash, being a semi-spiking smash attack, is dangerous for Ganondorf near the ledge, as it would render his recovery useless at a higher damage, if he already used his jump (although this is remedied with customs on). She is also one not to let Ganondorf get to her if he rushes her down, making him be patient and devise a strategy.

Either one of them can take an easy stock against another, but I say Ganondorf has an easier time against Rosalina than Pac-Man does against her.

Now I end with a question; who else, other than Ganondorf, can KO an opponent at 0% damage?

Btw there's also tink dsmash vs bad recoveries or like any aerial vs Mac lol. With the opponent charging a smash, or low ceiling, or rage, etc. rosa up tilt and up air get pretty funny

Also I'm not trying to call it the worst MU ever, just pointing out some things that didn't make sense

 

[Blobface]

Normal Ganon vs Normal Rosa is terrible. She gimps him at ridiculous %'s and is impossible to approach, plus she basically invalidates Flame Choke. 35:65 or worse.

Customs on it's 45:55 at worst (Rosa's favor), even at best. Rosa has great customs, but they only help her with characters she already doesn't do well against. Shooting star bit might actually be worse since Ganon can power shield it. Ganon however, becomes nearly ungimpable, gets a great anti-luma tool with Flame Chain, and Dark Fists counters Rosa's aerial shenanigans and kills below 60% without rage, and is basically a "DEAD" button with full rage.

 

[Locke 06]

"Cocaine logic is the fallacy that when a thing helps a player win in a game, that that proves it's good design to include in the game."

I laughed when people cried over changes like Mega Man losing Rush hitstun canceling. Like, really? You think this is OK to have in the game? If your character actually desperately needs a buff he/she/it can receive one through normal means. Design and feel are Sakurai's number 1 priority, but a lot of care is being taken to ensure balance this time around too.

In a few mega man mains' defense, the thought of Rush coming to the rescue to help Mega escape was seen as a purposeful design choice.

While I agree that it was incredibly overpowered and those who said he "needed" it were just going through the struggle of learning a new character, it didn't fail the cocaine logic test completely. Much like Greninja's SS hitstun canceling doesn't completely fail due to the move being ninja like. There are crazier things that have been put in smash and people are weird.

But yeah, rush canceling was hilarious. Peach dsmash did 1% on Mega.

Edit: Gonna call this out:

Normal Ganon vs Normal Rosa is terrible. She gimps him at ridiculous %'s and is impossible to approach, plus she basically invalidates Flame Choke. 35:65 or worse.

Customs on it's 45:55 at worst (Rosa's favor), even at best. Rosa has great customs, but they only help her with characters she already doesn't do well against. Shooting star bit might actually be worse since Ganon can power shield it. Ganon however, becomes nearly ungimpable, gets a great anti-luma tool with Flame Chain, and Dark Fists counters Rosa's aerial shenanigans and kills below 60% without rage, and is basically a "DEAD" button with full rage.

How does Dark Fists help your recovery that much? The 1st hit has super armor until the hitbox (f15-16), but the next hitbox doesn't come out until f42. That's a 26 frame window for Rosa (or anyone) to hit you. Compared to default, which the grab box is f14-28 and the uppercut is f34, that gives a 6 frame window. Granted, default gets gimped hard because you can challenge it with any move before f34 and win, but I don't see how you can claim Ganondorf is "nearly ungimpable" with a clear weakness to the move.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Random questions since I'm trying to go through the videos for the recent Japanese tournament we were discussing earlier, do anyone know the official stagelist for the event? I know that people always say Japan only plays on Smashville, FD, and Battlefield but I'm already seeing a pools match with Town and City. I want to be able to properly frame what I'm looking at (especially if T&C is a CP or something).

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Oh jeez
So much wat

Pls. Since when can a fatty with no projectile outcamp the camping queen. Rosa is a gril scout you'll get know here with this she forces approaches especially I customs.
I see people bringing up killing Luma way too much when talking about MUs and honestly after playing her for months the only time this has ever felt like a relevant factor is when going against characters with something like Mario's bthrow. Pretty sure Dr. Mario and Wario have the same sort of thing, and maybe Luigi's down b too, but other than that really just Everything kills Luma. It just depends what's landed where and says more about the people playing rather than the MU. Which sounds stupid but it feels true. I wanna see a different more experienced Rosa talk about this.
Oh and once again she has far superior mobility and should not be putting herself in range of ganon without luma simply bc she doesn't have to
...Irrelevant. Gravitational Pull isn't like a Rosa Fundemental that gets shot down, it's just a response to projectiles at long range.
C'mon man you can't just say stuff like this.
-fully charged luma shot is invincible (for luma) I guess, wouldn't know for sure bc...
-this move is almost never used. Too risky for luma. Not bad tho.
-how is this character specific in the first place

Lol warlock punch
Pretty sure diddy pre70ass% hah hah would be a bit more reliable.
u wat
You misspelled Sheik.
Up air and up tilt are disjointed, so that's not rly a good idea...
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean lol if your trying to go around random up airs gl even then.
Let's be real here- not happening
I doubt she has a move with more than half the startup of warlock punch in cool down.

Alrigghtt..
I'm done lol.

Btw there's also tink dsmash vs bad recoveries or like any aerial vs Mac lol. With the opponent charging a smash, or low ceiling, or rage, etc. rosa up tilt and up air get pretty funny

Also I'm not trying to call it the worst MU ever, just pointing out some things that didn't make sense

radical larrys statments are always....radical nothing new.

 

[Blobface]

How does Dark Fists help your recovery that much? The 1st hit has super armor until the hitbox (f15-16), but the next hitbox doesn't come out until f42. That's a 26 frame window for Rosa (or anyone) to hit you. Compared to default, which the grab box is f14-28 and the uppercut is f34, that gives a 6 frame window. Granted, default gets gimped hard because you can challenge it with any move before f34 and win, but I don't see how you can claim Ganondorf is "nearly ungimpable" with a clear weakness to the move.

Dark Fists alone is really only slightly better as a recovery. As long as Ganondorf isn't straining to reach the ledge, he can armor edgeguards on reaction*, but that's the only recovery application it really has. If he's too low it's very possible to edgeguard him out of it. It's biggest use, especially against Rosalina, is a "pseudo-counter" against otherwise safe aerial spacing. Dark Fists allows Ganon to run in and armor through normally safe aerials.

It's Wizards Dropkick that makes him so hard to gimp. With it, he can basically recover from anywhere he wants except the bottom corner. If he's running Dropkick (it's only good in matchups where avoiding gimps is a priority), Pretty much the only time Ganon would actually need to use Dark Fists to recover is if he's hit by something that has very horizontal knockback, like his own F-tilt, and Sheik and Rosa's D-smash near the edge. And even then, only his own F-tilt has sufficient knockback to be an edgeguarding threat against Dropkick below 100%.

*With default, he can easily be gimped in these situations

 

[Lavani]

Normal Ganon vs Normal Rosa is terrible. She gimps him at ridiculous %'s and is impossible to approach, plus she basically invalidates Flame Choke. 35:65 or worse.

Customs on it's 45:55 at worst (Rosa's favor), even at best. Rosa has great customs, but they only help her with characters she already doesn't do well against. Shooting star bit might actually be worse since Ganon can power shield it. Ganon however, becomes nearly ungimpable, gets a great anti-luma tool with Flame Chain, and Dark Fists counters Rosa's aerial shenanigans and kills below 60% without rage, and is basically a "DEAD" button with full rage.

Question: How do you feel about Flame Wave against Rosalina? I'm not well-read on Ganon's sideB options, but Flame Wave's blast hits Luma too and disposes of it handily, not to mention killing quite well in itself. Flame Chain only sends Luma flying with the last hit and the earlier hits won't drag him along, so it can only launch him when initiated from a distance.

 

[Smog Frog]

rosa's light as **** so she dies to anything around 80, flame wave hardly does anything especially when compared to flame chain

 

[Conda]

rosa's light as **** so she dies to anything around 80, flame wave hardly does anything especially when compared to flame chain

1) No she doesn't, and 2) if luma doesn't tank or deny the hit (or the method to combo into the hit)

 

[Teshie U]

Normal Ganon vs Normal Rosa is terrible. She gimps him at ridiculous %'s and is impossible to approach, plus she basically invalidates Flame Choke. 35:65 or worse.

Customs on it's 45:55 at worst (Rosa's favor), even at best. Rosa has great customs, but they only help her with characters she already doesn't do well against. Shooting star bit might actually be worse since Ganon can power shield it. Ganon however, becomes nearly ungimpable, gets a great anti-luma tool with Flame Chain, and Dark Fists counters Rosa's aerial shenanigans and kills below 60% without rage, and is basically a "DEAD" button with full rage.

Luma Warp helps vs everyone. It basically lets rosalina send the strongest part of her moveset to roll behind you instantly. For a slow spacing characters like Ganondorf, she can definitely catch him throwing out otherwise safe horizontal coverage and warp luma behind him for a combo starter or kill setup.

Rosalina's Uair is so disjointed that it really won't scare her if you have a super armored move thats only going to send you up anyway.

 

[Blobface]

Question: How do you feel about Flame Wave against Rosalina? I'm not well-read on Ganon's sideB options, but Flame Wave's blast hits Luma too and disposes of it handily, not to mention killing quite well in itself. Flame Chain only sends Luma flying with the last hit and the earlier hits won't drag him along, so it can only launch him when initiated from a distance.

If Rosalina tried to counterpick a low ceiling stage, I'd go with Flame Wave. Otherwise I'd go with Flame Chain.

Luma Warp helps vs everyone. It basically lets rosalina send the strongest part of her moveset to roll behind you instantly. For a slow spacing characters like Ganondorf, she can definitely catch him throwing out otherwise safe horizontal coverage and warp luma behind him for a combo starter or kill setup.

Rosalina's Uair is so disjointed that it really won't scare her if you have a super armored move thats only going to send you up anyway.

I'm not saying that Rosalina doesn't get anything against Ganondorf from customs. I'm just saying that the benefits Ganondorf gets far out-weigh the benefits she gets.

Trying to counter Rosalina's U-air (or anyone else's for that matter) with Dark Fists is silly unless you hard read a jump, which rarely works. And by "rarely" I mean "it's theoretically possible but useless".

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If Rosalina tried to counterpick a low ceiling stage, I'd go with Flame Wave. Otherwise I'd go with Flame Chain.



I'm not saying that Rosalina doesn't get anything against Ganondorf from customs. I'm just saying that the benefits Ganondorf gets far out-weigh the benefits she gets.

Trying to counter Rosalina's U-air (or anyone else's for that matter) with Dark Fists is silly unless you hard read a jump, which rarely works. And by "rarely" I mean "it's theoretically possible but useless".

Custom rosa is pretty good man. Ganon doesn't become good with customs sorry.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Custom rosa is pretty good man. Ganon doesn't become good with customs sorry.

Ganon army inbound

Imo customs rosa rivals sheik as the second best in the game because her camp and ridiculous neutral control.

 

[RWB]

Tested some max rage Dark Fists on Rosa:

FD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0m5ib9-Fnw
Halberd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCyJ6-bWdBc

No Rage:
FD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ps_VCEhqAI
Halberd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXsTc_mzaNA

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm being completely honest here, Flame Choke is only irrelevant against Rosalina when Luma is present. Without Luma, Rosalina is just as vulnerable to Flame Choke as other characters are. If I do remember correctly, Ganondorf can Flame Choke > F-Tilt against Rosalina.

And to be fair, saying Ganondorf horribly loses to Rosalina is an overstatement. I do believe they are a good near-even to even match-up. On one end, you got a combo-friendly, fast, floaty and damage racking character (Rosalina), and on another you got a less combo-friendly, slow, bulky powerhouse with fast attacks (Ganondorf), both of which can even each other out if one can find ways to get over the MU and just fight.

It's not a horrible MU for Ganondorf, it's quite a fair one on both ends. Both of them have things that even one another out and give them both a good MU against each other.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm being completely honest here, Flame Choke is only irrelevant against Rosalina when Luma is present. Without Luma, Rosalina is just as vulnerable to Flame Choke as other characters are. If I do remember correctly, Ganondorf can Flame Choke > F-Tilt against Rosalina.

And to be fair, saying Ganondorf horribly loses to Rosalina is an overstatement. I do believe they are a good near-even to even match-up. On one end, you got a combo-friendly, fast, floaty and damage racking character (Rosalina), and on another you got a less combo-friendly, slow, bulky powerhouse with fast attacks (Ganondorf), both of which can even each other out if one can find ways to get over the MU and just fight.

It's not a horrible MU for Ganondorf, it's quite a fair one on both ends. Both of them have things that even one another out and give them both a good MU against each other.

Here's why Ganon players hate this matchup: Uair and Dair. Against most juggling characters Ganon
can threaten with a Wizard's Foot that hits very hard if they get overzealous, but Rosalina's disjointed Uair can just smack him whenever, even if he has time to start the kick the disjoint will hit him anyway. And Luma Dair gimps Ganon
hilariously easily (though to be fair, Ganon can smack Rosa good during her recovery).

Also Rosa has jab. Ganon's attack speed pales in comparison to Rosalina.

 

[Smog Frog]

i think all of ganon's mus should have a little asterisk next to them that says "if you **** up these numbers dont mean anything", because ganon's mu against rosa is actually really bad.

 

[Blobface]

Ganon army inbound

Imo customs rosa rivals sheik as the second best in the game because her camp and ridiculous neutral control.

I'm going to tag ALL THE GANON'S. @Bermanubis @X1GMA @B3ZOMG @Yinc @Clay_Balm @Doughpana

(A wall of text approaches)
@ Smog Frog most of his matchups do. A 6:4 matchup for Ganon is very manageable if you play it right, much more manageable than it would be with any other character. Sheik, Rosa, ZSS, and Villager are the only characters that bork his gameplan hard enough to become more than a matter of outplaying the other person. All of these are probably 3:7 customs off.

The biggest thing Ganon gets out of customs is the ability to force his worst matchups to play his game instead of theirs. You wanted to cheese Ganon with obnoxiously safe aerials? Dark Fists, you die at 30%. You wanted to gimp Ganon? Wizard's Dropkick, you'll be lucky to even see him use his Up-B to recover. You wanted to chain Ganon with obnoxious disjointed aerials? Dark Fists, you're dead at 15%.

(those %'s aren't exaggerations either. That's when Dark Fists kills with rage)

What all four of those characters do is skew Ganon's risk:reward. What customs do for Ganon is un-skew his risk:reward against these characters.

Sheik requires Ganon to take enormous risks just to land a single hit, and she gimps him so easily that, in a way, she gets just as much reward as Ganon. Dark Fists and Dropkick not only prevent gimps and allow Ganondorf to abuse his kill power with rage, but they counter a lot of Sheiks shenanigans. Dark Fists counters basically everything Sheik does in the air including bouncing fish, and Dropkick can counter Needles off a read. One of Ganon's most improved matchups. 45:55

Rosa has Luma, which again makes getting even one hit on her a pain, obnoxious disjointed juggles, and her gimps are even worse than Sheiks. Dropkick and Dark Fists once again safeguard against Gimps, and Ganon can replace the otherwise useless Flame Choke (in this matchup) with the very useful (in this matchup) Flame Chain. And Dark Fists once again counters aerial shenanigans, killing Rosa at utterly obscene %'s (like, below 30%). Rosa does get a lot from customs with Luma Warp which considerably augments her offense and makes the threat of simply being outright killed by Rosalina much more significant. However, gaining that is not worth losing her ridiculous gimping ability and safe aerials. The matchup becomes considerably more volatile, but it's still nowhere near as bad for Ganon. One of his most improved matchups. 45:55
(Shooting star bit is worse for keeping Ganon out because he can actually powershield it)

ZSS has the most obnoxiously safe projectiles in the game with paralyzer, and has flip jump and giant combos to skew the
reward in her favor. Dark Fists once again is excellent here, countering aerial shenanigans again, making her chains and combos much riskier. I'm not sure which Down-B to use here. Dropkick is great against Paralyzer, but having both Wizkick and Dark Fists to kill at 50% from disadvantage is amazing. Not as improved, but still, I'd say about 42.5:57.5

Don't make me talk about Villager. Please. It's horrendous. He can gimp, kill, and camp Ganondorf. Dark Fists and Dropkick yet again safeguard against gimps, and Dark Fists is an amazing kill option, but well, Ganon doesn't get much else. Dropkick is great against counter timber though. His least improved matchup with customs. 4:6.

With all that said, Ganon's design is inherently self-limiting when it comes to competitive play; as in, he simply can't be top/high tier. He makes big gambles for big reward. When he goes for a hit, he either deals a 60% combo (kill percent already), or does 0% and gets punished. Because of this, his matches either go really well, or go really badly, very little in-between. This is an unavoidable aspect of his design that can only be avoided by making him either terrible or overpowered.

That's not to say we won't see Ganon place in regionals and nationals every-once-and-a-while, but it does limit his viability. I'd place Ganon as low-mid without customs, and high-mid with customs.

Also, top tier Ganondorf would be catastrophic. There would be three types of characters in that Meta: Ganondorf, characters that counter Ganondorf, and unviable characters.

Tested some max rage Dark Fists on Rosa:

That OHKO was delicious.

 

[Antonykun]

It's kinda funny how it seems like Ganon's agree that Villy is their worst MU while DDD is Her best MU and DDD's worst is Megaman. It's like a love triangle.
Srsly tho @ Smooth Criminal how does DDD beat Villy?

 

[Ffamran]

Ooo! Phenom's using Ganondorf and Denti who I think is a Diddy main - I don't remember -, is using Yoshi in Winners Finals!

Edit: Forgot to ask, what is the MU between those two?

 

[Blobface]

More like a hate triangle.

Or a sadism triangle.

Or whatever emotion Villy's face is supposed to represent.

(Ima tag @ Smooth Criminal too) What would you give Dedede to fix his worst matchups? It seems to me both him and Ganon suffer from the "if this character was top tier, they'd be really polarizing" effect.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's kinda funny how it seems like Ganon's agree that Villy is their worst MU while DDD is Her best MU and DDD's worst is Megaman. It's like a love triangle.
Srsly tho @ Smooth Criminal how does DDD beat Villy?

...he doesn't.

IMO, it's 6:4 in Villager's favor. Villager doesn't quite shut down D3 by pure zoning, but he/she can make D3 constantly struggle to land the killing blow or otherwise be effective in neutral.

If given access to customs, I'd put it at 7:3, Villager's favor. Trip sapling changes everything.

What would I give D3 to make him more threatening?

- Buff Gordos so that if they get reflected by the opposition, they're harmlessly flung away instead of right in D3's piehole.

- Make fair autocancel.

- Slightly faster jabs (7-8 frames instead of 10).

- Brawl utilt specs (seriously, utilt in Brawl was amazing).

That's about it, tbh.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Blobface]

Ooo! Phenom's using Ganondorf and Denti who I think is a Diddy main - I don't remember -, is using Yoshi in Winners Finals!

Edit: Forgot to ask, what is the MU between those two?

I'd say about even. Yoshi has speed, but Ganon out powers him so hard.

Pardon the double post, hard to edit a quote in with a tablet.

 

[Seagull Joe]

just imagine for one second if unknown hadn't been cheesed so hard against seagull

just think

but ay thats why the patch is coming

This implies I won solely cause my character is good. I didn't cheese him. I outplayed him and won. Stay ignorant.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

This implies I won solely cause my character is good. I didn't cheese him. I outplayed him and won. Stay ignorant.

lol chill seagull hostility brings hostility.

 

[Seagull Joe]

lol chill seagull hostility brings hostility.

I just don't like being discredited. A win is a win.

I just can't understand this new mindset of people thinking I don't deserve my wins because I use a good character. I never had this issue in brawl when I mained a mid tier (). People complained about 3.0 PM , but never discredited me when I won.

I don't get why my is suddenly winning through sheer cheese. If someone consistently wins and beats all the players in the region then maybe it's not the character. Maybe the player is skilled. Derp.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I just don't like being discredited. A win is a win.

I just can't understand this new mindset of people thinking I don't deserve my wins because I use a good character. I never had this issue in brawl when I mained a mid tier (). People complained about 3.0 PM , but never discredited me when I won.

I don't get why my is suddenly winning through sheer cheese. If someone consistently wins and beats all the players in the region then maybe it's not the character. Maybe the player is skilled. Derp.

i don't recall anything like that being said, but i get your point. For the most part, I don't get how "a win is a win" and "sheer cheese" should actually matter. there is no difference. everything about diddy is cheesy in a skillfull way. its takes skill to play at high level and someone saying another won by cheese really does not imply you were not imploring skill.

In melee drill shining was probaly the most chessy thing iv ever seen but being able to pull it off effectivly is still a matter of skill.

You'r cheesy bruh, but you should not be ashamed of it.

 

[Djent]

I don't get why my is suddenly winning through sheer cheese. If someone consistently wins and beats all the players in the region then maybe it's not the character. Maybe the player is skilled. Derp.

So out of curiosity, have you changed your mind about Average Joe, and will you refrain from assuming that someone else is winning off of cheese in the future?