Character Competitive Impressions

[ChikoLad]

(So that other "Tier List Speculation Thread" was locked just as I was posting, but seeing as I was more posting my thoughts on certain characters overall, I'm just gonna paste it here)

Rosalina is looking top tier and will likely always remain that way, IMO (and no, this isn't "favourite character bias", I will admit wholeheartedly that Sonic was average in Brawl, even though I mained him). All of the top players are already considering her to be really good, but ALSO say that it's going to take a long time for her meta to really develop, and in my personal opinion, I think her playstyle is so versatile, that there won't really be a concrete meta for her. I think there will be all kinds of different ways for players to approach using the character. Luma enables such a concept more than anything.
Although they have GREATLY nerfed her weight since E3 which was a little disheartening at first, I can see why they did it now. Even without Luma, her attacks seem to have solid range, with a few multi-hits in there, and she can pass many of her attacks through platforms really easily. Ground speed is decent enough, and her aerial movement is one of the best in the game. She is near impossible to grab so long as Luma is nearby. Rosalina & Luma can be de-synced without Luma Shot (meaning you can use Luma Shot after ALREADY being separated from Luma, increasing the move's versatility). Rosalina has an auto-cancel-able aerial, Luma can use ground attacks and Smash attacks in the air and the full length of an aerial at ground level. And projectiles are completely useless against her regardless of Luma's presence:

IDK there's just a lot of disrespectful things she can do to a lot of characters, it's gonna be a lot of fun maining her though! :D
Also, every single one of her custom specials are useful, unlike most other characters who have a few stinkers.

Besides her though, Sonic is looking amazing too. Definitely a huge upgrade from Brawl. He must have brought the Magic Hands from SA2, because his grab range is RIDICULOUS. It's almost unnatural and janky to look at. Combo game is amazing, he's even faster than before, recovery potential is still awesome, he now has a spike...I'm just loving what I'm seeing of him.

I also think Duck Hunt Duo and Olimar look really good too. Though I haven't watched enough to really make a proper judgement. The match up between them is really even though, especially after watching CTZero and M2K pit them against each other.

And from playing the demo, I think Mario will definitely have a solid position, Villager also seems like he can be a terror and is probably one of the most difficult match-ups for Rosalina that I've seen, which is a good sign for him. Link (Toon Link) have been developing a lot of new techniques so it will be interesting to see how they play out going forward. Also people are completely underrating Mega Man. He's gonna be terrible against a good Rosalina player, but in general, Mega Man is actually really solid and I already feel like I can kick butt with him, with a lot of versatile options, partly because of Rush Coil being used as a primary movement tool. I'm not liking Pikachu as much so far but I haven't bothered with him much.

Robin also will be interesting, since he/she has aerial Smash attacks, among other things.

This is gonna be an interesting game.

 

[Duskinja]

The rest of that list is an approximation and a very faint one at best. Palutena as dead last seems like an exaggeration. Shulk and Falco are suspicioulsy low, Kirby also seems to be a bit low. On the other hand Charizard, Mario and Villager seem higher than they should be imo.

I guess we would have to play the full game for ourselves to know for sure, won't we?

 

[Chauzu]

I can only agree that Rosalina will always be considered one of the best characters in the game. You just need to face one single decent Rosalina player and you realize how good she is. She has priority, she has power with luma, she has combo's with Luma, she has great aerials, a great dash attack, and Luma makes it very hard to grab her. That last part is big - grabbing Rosalina can often result in the grabber getting more damaged than the grabbed! It's insane.

I'm basically a competetive casual so obviously there are more knowledgeable than me but I'll eat my shoes if Rosalina doesn't end up being considered one of the best in this game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

****ing Rosalina the puppeteer. I knew right from the beginning the char would be stupid, because puppeteers can't be balanced by design.

The rest of that list is an approximation and a very faint one at best. Palutena as dead last seems like an exaggeration. Shulk and Falco are suspicioulsy low, Kirby also seems to be a bit low. On the other hand Charizard, Mario and Villager seem higher than they should be imo.

Shulk seems really limited. Probably not QUITE as bad as the Japanese list implies, but I don't see him as being very special. He basically has 2 or 3 useful moves onstage, and even with his speed boost buff, he's vulnerable to zoning and defensive play. He does have good offstage control, but that's about all that I can think of that he has going for him. He mostly only seems to be decent in situations where he's either ahead and camping or edgeguarding.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

****ing Rosalina the puppeteer. I knew right from the beginning the char would be stupid, because puppeteers can't be balanced by design.

To be fair, they're usually polarizing. Either they're really stupid (Zato-1/Eddie in most of the GG games) or kind of weaksauce (Carl Clover in BB, Cait and Sith in Chaos Code).

Smooth Criminal

 

[A2ZOMG]

That was pretty much my point. Puppeteers are either too good or pointless, because it's an unbalanceable gameplan. Having a second controllable unit that can perform commands independent of the main character just completely throws the standard balance of covering options out the window. If you want to make that gameplan not strategically bull****, it usually requires nerfing the main character to the point of them being pathetic.

As for Carl, I recall him being legit broken top tier in most iterations of BlazBlue, but basically nobody wanted to play him because he was by far the hardest character in the game to play correctly. I mean...I really dislike that the primary "balance" for puppeteers is the unreliability of player execution.

Rosalina admittedly is actually SLIGHTLY more fair than other puppeteers from what I've seen given Luma can't grab, and there's no high/low mixup system in Brawl to create broken unblockable pressure setups. Luma though is pretty **** nonsense on the defense and when edgetrapping.

 

[FlareHabanero]

To be fair, they're usually polarizing. Either they're really stupid (Zato-1/Eddie in most of the GG games) or kind of weaksauce (Carl Clover in BB, Cait and Sith in Chaos Code).

Smooth Criminal

If there is one positive, is that there are rarely if any walls in Super Smash Bros., meaning wall ****** those type of characters (especially Zato-1) are infamous for won't apply to Rosalina.

 

[RWB]

The only thing I see holding Rosalina back from being a high/top tier is her size and weight.

Massive hitbox and as being as light as Kirby seems pretty bad.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Carl was considered "top tier/broken" in theorycrafting only because of the clap loop. That was taken away from him in later iterations of BB. The rest of Carl's kit is kinda booty, and it always has been, being eclipsed by the likes of other (re: better) characters.

Relius, on the other hand, has been the better puppeteer character since he debuted because he has a strong kit outside of his puppet (in other words, he plays closer to Zato from GG, with strong normals that help with mixups and unblockables).

Soooo, yeah. Personally I don't think Rosalina is going to be that strong (I don't think the Luma is that potent a tool, and I haven't seen anything in her gameplay that strikes me as outstanding), but I guess we'll see.

Smooth Criminal

 

[DougX]

For my own little speculation to throw into the topic and possibly discuss, I feel like Luigi might move up a modest amount compared to Brawl based on my observations. Some of his weaker moves (Such as his dash attack, which I will get into) or moves in general (Such as his signature chop) from previous installments have been or seem to have been improved and his mobility seems to be a little better this time around (From videos I've seen, it appears that he runs faster). His dash attack actually seems a bit actually useful from videos I've seen as it seems to be almost lightning quick and the hits seem to link a lot better. He also has that cool new down throw which seems to have some good follow ups on top of looking hilariously epic. His butt smack attack at the end of his jab also moves him forward now, which... I dunno if that will help with anything or not. He also apparently can wall jump now, which can help him out with his recovery maneuvers. And finally, he also has a few custom moves which may possibly offer some helpful tools (Such as the Mario-style bouncing fireballs) if they are allowed for certain purposes. This is just from observations and comparing to previous installments as I need to actually use him whenever I get the game to confirm anything I've see. I dunno how much he has truly improved until then. c:

Robin Boy Wonder seems like he might be a pretty epic character when one can control his powers properly. Can't wait to give him a go as I plan on him being my secondary after Luigi.

Just wanted to get some of these thoughts out the way. If anyone wants to discuss what I've said, feel free.

 

[CitizenSNIPS]

I do not necessarily feel as though the attitude is condescending. In the fighting game community, players who play online are typically alluded to as online warriors. There are some that are elitist about it, but it is just a name. It is not inherently condescending by any stretch of the imagination.

Yep, and over the years in other communities there have been online warriors who transitioned very well into offline competition. As long as you aren't abusing the lag badly and understand the mechanics of the game you should be able to transition from online to offline well as long as you have some time to get used to difference in lag.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'll admit to using the term "online warrior" as a pejorative, if only because I've encountered a few people that honestly thought their accomplishments in the online arena were comparable to playing in an offline tourney stacked with hundreds of people. Which, IMO, is completely ****ing bogus for obvious reasons.

As a few people have already mentioned, however, some of the best and brightest had their humble beginnings playing online. Smash 4 is going to rake some of these folks in, I think.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Berserker.]

Not gonna make any Shulk impressions since I'd prefer it if I actually tried him out (And most of my observations are from other players and videos). Still gonna main him and I think he's gonna be solid (or possibly even good), nonetheless

Continuing on what I said about Mario pages back, I'll say some good stuff. I find it way easier to gimp with Mario. He feels great to use, but in comparison to the cast I'm not entirely sure. I'm still having trouble getting around his short range and I'm having tough times landing KO's. I'll admit, landing f-air feels great but that goes for pretty much any meteor smash in Smash 4

 

[Deathcarter]

I need to get my hands on Shulk to form a more solid opinion and anyone who's played Shulk can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting a lot of Ike vibes from the videos I've watch of Shulk in that a lot of his moveset in general looks pretty impractical and that Shulk will be heavily relying on a few bread and butter moves like nair and jab with the big difference being that Shulk trades the ability to kill for much better mobility and damage dealing.

 

[mimgrim]

I actually got to play Shulk a little bit.

From what I've played, he is going to be based mostly around his stances. Early on his two most used powers will be speed and damage. Later on Shulk will want to focus and knockback power when he gets the opponent to a high precent and defen power when he gets to a high precent. And then when recovering you will want to go with jump boost. Knowing the ordering of his stances will be very important for Shulk players. Other then that, his range is absolutely amazing. He is definitely the sword wielder with the longest range in this game. He also won't have many combos, most combos he gets will probably be through the damage boost.

Overall I think he will be good and a possible contender for best sword wielder.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Shulk seems like he's going to be the most difficult character to learn to use well, so I'm not surprised that early tier lists would have him low (And it could stay that way in a tournament ranking based tier list just because I could see many people just preferring to use a character that's much easier to learn)

 

[Blue Warrior]

Not gonna make any Shulk impressions since I'd prefer it if I actually tried him out (And most of my observations are from other players and videos). Still gonna main him and I think he's gonna be solid (or possibly even good), nonetheless

Continuing on what I said about Mario pages back, I'll say some good stuff. I find it way easier to gimp with Mario. He feels great to use, but in comparison to the cast I'm not entirely sure. I'm still having trouble getting around his short range and I'm having tough times landing KO's. I'll admit, landing f-air feels great but that goes for pretty much any meteor smash in Smash 4

I think a good deal of Mario's KOs are going to have to come from gimping rather than straight "KO moves". For that matter, what are our opinions on FLUDD?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think a good deal of Mario's KOs are going to have to come from gimping rather than straight "KO moves". For that matter, what are our opinions on FLUDD?

FLUDD is conditional and depends on your opponent recovering from rather specific angles. Usually it's better to focus on chasing people with N-air/Cape where applicable.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Naruto has had "fair" puppeteer characters but those games have been hugely unbalanced overall.

 

[ChikoLad]

The only thing I see holding Rosalina back from being a high/top tier is her size and weight.

Massive hitbox and as being as light as Kirby seems pretty bad.

I was worried about this too at first, but:

-Gravitational Pull makes projectiles, weak or strong, completely useless, and will turn Rosalina into their "owner" for the brief period of time they spin around her before disappearing.
And it even works on Pikachu's Thunder to produce an amazingly long ranged, powerful counter:
https://vine.co/v/OZEVO0BUAlJ
-Her tall frame also gives her a lot of range, and her cosmic element makes the range even BIGGER, with lots of disjointed hitboxes.
-A lot of her attacks have a bit of a lasting period, and of course, have high priority to boot.
-Her F-Air has really nice range and also auto cancels.
-Gravitational Pull has a momentum cancelling trait (useful if she's launched, to a degree).
-Her recovery is amazing, she has absolutely no trouble getting back on stage, and it's pretty safe, with her F-Air and Luma being there.
-Has at least three attacks that go well through platforms.

Those are just a few things that make being tall and light a non-issue for Rosalina. And of course, Luma too.

Rosalina seems like she'd actually still have a strong standing on tier lists even with her current solo game (hypothetically, she'd probably play very different to begin with if Luma wasn't present, though). Luma just pushes her that extra mile, into top tier, since it gives her unlimited potential in what she can do.

 

[Luigi player]

I have to add myself to the Lucario is OP bandwagon (I actually thought he was top 3 right after I saw some screens/matches of him before/right after the japanese release). He's just so ridiculous, lol.

Also I think Bowser is really overrated. He's very strong and not too slow, but his moves have a lot of endinglag. If you don't hit with them it's bad. He's also a big target and stuff. He's like a better Brawl-Ike. I think he'll end up around middle tier (probably upper mid or low high tier, but who knows), after people start getting more used to the game.

I'm surprised about this, but Megaman doesn't seem bad at all to me, which makes me happy.

There's also this little bugger... Villager. I'm really not sure what to think of him if I'd need to rank him, but he's really really annoying to play against. Maybe it's just me, but fair/bair always catch me off guard all the time... ugh.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Also I think Bowser is really overrated. He's very strong and not too slow, but his moves have a lot of endinglag. If you don't hit with them it's bad. He's also a big target and stuff. He's like a better Brawl-Ike. I think he'll end up around middle tier (probably upper mid or low high tier, but who knows), after people start getting more used to the game.

I'm surprised about this, but Megaman doesn't seem bad at all to me, which makes me happy.

Bowser's biggest problem imo is more he's likely to be hard countered by good projectile zoning. To a smaller but also important extent, good edgeguarding is also hard for him to deal with.

His moveset is fantastic. Jab and correctly spaced tilts are safe on block and do great amounts of damage. Most of his aerials can be autocanceled and all are good for edgeguarding and spacing. Flamebreath and Up-B are also strong defensive tools, making it difficult to rush Bowser down in neutral.

He'll probably be mid tier later on mostly just due to being counterpicked. If you can't projectile camp him very well though, then he probably does well against you.

Megaman honestly seems similar to Bowser in a sense. He has a gameplan that's pretty good until you pick things that easily get around it. Reflectors for instance force Megaman to shift away from his preferred zoning and force him to play footsies with relatively risky normals and aerials.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Guess I'm the only Lucario that isn't convinced he is OP.

 

[TTYK]

From the footage I have seen, Little Mac's jab combo looks ridiculous, with %19 damage, virtually no starting lag, and unusually large knockback for a jab, I suggest Sakurai nerfs this lol. And his recovery ability is about as good as Brawl Wario's, definitely not good enough of a nerf. And also, his aeriels are not too shabby, so dont pull that out of the bag.

 

[Shaya]

And his recovery ability is about as good as Brawl Wario's, definitely not good enough of a nerf. And also, his aeriels are not too shabby, so dont pull that out of the bag.

... Brawl Wario had the third best recovery in the game. And if not third, he was definitely in the upper echelons.

Bike momentum cancelling + staying well above stage height + giving an obnoxiously large jump afterwards, coupled with the best aerial mobility class in the game gave him a very very very very good recovery. He is significantly less harassable off stage than nearly any other character I can think of other than MK and G&W.

He also has extra options (that he doesn't actually need) in his Up-B and charged waft.

Little Mac's recovery is genuinely ass in comparison.

 

[TTYK]

... Brawl Wario had the third best recovery in the game. And if not third, he was definitely in the upper echelons.

Bike momentum cancelling + staying well above stage height + giving an obnoxiously large jump afterwards, coupled with the best aerial mobility class in the game gave him a very very very very good recovery. He is significantly less harassable off stage than nearly any other character I can think of other than MK and G&W.

He also has extra options (that he doesn't actually need) in his Up-B and charged waft.

Little Mac's recovery is genuinely *** in comparison.

by recovery I mean his "recovery" as in Up B

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I was worried about this too at first, but:

-Gravitational Pull makes projectiles, weak or strong, completely useless, and will turn Rosalina into their "owner" for the brief period of time they spin around her before disappearing.
And it even works on Pikachu's Thunder to produce an amazingly long ranged, powerful counter:
https://vine.co/v/OZEVO0BUAlJ
-Her tall frame also gives her a lot of range, and her cosmic element makes the range even BIGGER, with lots of disjointed hitboxes.
-A lot of her attacks have a bit of a lasting period, and of course, have high priority to boot.
-Her F-Air has really nice range and also auto cancels.
-Gravitational Pull has a momentum cancelling trait (useful if she's launched, to a degree).
-Her recovery is amazing, she has absolutely no trouble getting back on stage, and it's pretty safe, with her F-Air and Luma being there.
-Has at least three attacks that go well through platforms.

Those are just a few things that make being tall and light a non-issue for Rosalina. And of course, Luma too.

Rosalina seems like she'd actually still have a strong standing on tier lists even with her current solo game (hypothetically, she'd probably play very different to begin with if Luma wasn't present, though). Luma just pushes her that extra mile, into top tier, since it gives her unlimited potential in what she can do.

LOL

THAT PIKACHU COUNTER

OH MY GOD

Rosalina is lookin' so great.

 

[Shaya]

by recovery I mean his "recovery" as in Up B

Well that's a very silly criteria then. Meta Knight isn't using shuttle loop to recover in Brawl. He's using dimension cape, tornado or his natural glide.

Mac only has side-b and up-b, both of which put him into freefall and don't give him any form of respectable recovery. If Wario only had up-b in brawl he would've been a significantly worse character.

What about Up-B's that aren't recoveries? Like jigglypuffs? are you going to say she has terrible recovery? Kirby's up b is quite terrible too, he is never getting back on stage if ever hit off though, right?

I know you want to quantify/argue against something on a character you like, but you can't just ignore the whole picture for personal appeasement, it won't get you anywhere, Mac's recovery is NOT good. Being able to grab the ledge from below it is something every other character can do with near impunity.

 

[Funkermonster]

How does Donkey Kong seem to shape up in this game? Since he never had such a great showing in any Smash game, I just hope this character finally gets a better showing in the newest game..

 

[Yonder]

From the footage I have seen, Little Mac's jab combo looks ridiculous, with %19 damage, virtually no starting lag, and unusually large knockback for a jab, I suggest Sakurai nerfs this lol. And his recovery ability is about as good as Brawl Wario's, definitely not good enough of a nerf. And also, his aeriels are not too shabby, so dont pull that out of the bag.

Don't some of Mac's aerials do...0 percent? Sounds like a bad air game to me.

 

[epicgordan]

Oh, what the heck? I'm going to post my own personal tier list just for the fun of it, and based on my own first impressions (as well as a hint of general consensus):

Top Tier:

High Tier:

High-Mid Tier:

Mid Tier:

Mid-Low Tier:

Low Tier:

Bottom Tier:

This tier list took into consideration custom moves given the growing consensus being to make them a part of the meta game. If I did not do so, then this tier list would look drastically different.

Anyways, I only did this just for fun; the list overall wouldn't look so neat if I was being completely serious. I am just one guy, so if you feel that the characters ranked above have enough redeeming virtues concerning matchups, please discuss.

 

[Yonder]

...I give up debating why Luigi isn't bottom tier at this point, guess I'll just have to start wrecking people online when I get the game

 

[Venks]

How does Donkey Kong seem to shape up in this game? Since he never had such a great showing in any Smash game, I just hope this character finally gets a better showing in the newest game..

Dk looks really solid. Stays alive longer thanks to weight having more of an impact and thus he can take advantage of the rage Effect well. His down special has much more range and is actually really decent at shutting down ground approaches. Donkey Kongs up special looks to have more active super armor and thus can be used to trade favorably against other attacks with good timing. Lastly his side special looks to break shields instantly. DK seems pretty good.

From the footage I have seen, Little Mac's jab combo looks ridiculous, with %19 damage, virtually no starting lag, and unusually large knockback for a jab, I suggest Sakurai nerfs this lol. And his recovery ability is about as good as Brawl Wario's, definitely not good enough of a nerf. And also, his aeriels are not too shabby, so dont pull that out of the bag.

The jab combo isn't as good as it looks. The hit stun it deals is very small and can be escaped by a lot of characters unless it connects perfectly. Sheik can shield out of it pretty regularly and Bowser can attack while being hit with it 100% of the time unless he was hit in the air.

I'll admit to using the term "online warrior" as a pejorative, if only because I've encountered a few people that honestly thought their accomplishments in the online arena were comparable to playing in an offline tourney stacked with hundreds of people. Which, IMO, is completely ****ing bogus for obvious reasons.

As a few people have already mentioned, however, some of the best and brightest had their humble beginnings playing online. Smash 4 is going to rake some of these folks in, I think.

Smooth Criminal

Online warriors can have much more match-up experience than their offline counterparts. The pool of people to play from online is huge and thus you can find out first hand about a lot of match-up specific strategies and be that much better off in an actual tournament.

 

[GenericSonicFanName]

I didn't realized that there were different tier lists based on regions. Gotta revisit youtube for some tourneys.

I'm not really understanding the Greninja hype. Any videos with skilled players?

 

[DrakeRowan]

I'm not really understanding the Greninja hype. Any videos with skilled players?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd6K3UrtPfk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y18Hz41c46g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU_EClaO7Sg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEjOAEqqRmE

 

[Berserker.]

...I give up debating why Luigi isn't bottom tier at this point, guess I'll just have to start wrecking people online when I get the game

You know, you don't have to take every tier list seriously. We're all in the same boat in this anyway. This is all purely first impressions that will be changed once the game is released. Keep calm and have fun

I didn't realized that there were different tier lists based on regions. Gotta revisit youtube for some tourneys.

I'm not really understanding the Greninja hype. Any videos with skilled players?

Oh, and this.

That ****ing Greninja play hnnnnnnnnnnng

Smooth Criminal

IMO, he looks reeeeally good

 

[GenericSonicFanName]

ok greninja appears to be quite the *******. Thanks for the videos.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Online warriors can have much more match-up experience than their offline counterparts. The pool of people to play from online is huge and thus you can find out first hand about a lot of match-up specific strategies and be that much better off in an actual tournament.

Online meta =/= offline meta. As Citizen Snips pointed out, a lot of fighting games are an entirely different beast when you're playing online. There are strats and combos revolving around connection speed/compensating for lag, not to mention exploits revolving around disconnects and whatnot that bump your rank up. Then there's also the fact that you're playing against the guy next to you, and that you're doing it in front of scores of people that may or may not be rooting for you. Certainly more difficult than sitting in front of a TV devoid of that sorta crowd dynamic/interaction. Not to mention the other pressures, like money being on the line, etc.

That wasn't what I was getting at, though. I'm not dismissing the fact that the online warrior can glean good stuff from his or her experience through netplay. I just don't think that the braggarts have a right to boast because they're ranked number one in the online arena. That bothers me. To me, offline play is a helluva lot more work and is more involved than online play. The two just aren't comparable.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Reila]

Man, this "online warrior" **** is so annoying. The last thing I was expecting was offline players belittling online players.

Why do people in this community often feel the urge to pose as superior to others?

Edit: Sorry for the off-topic

 

[Berserker.]

Man, this "online warrior" **** is so annoying. The last thing I was expecting was offline players belittling online players.

Why do people in this community often feel the urge to pose as superior to others?

Edit: Sorry for the off-topic

No one's belittling anyone. I can understand what Smooth is saying when an offline experience is an entirely different experience from an online experience. The part that actually made me get what he was talking about was the whole "crowd dynamic." Honestly, playing in front of a lot of people might be pressuring and even overwhelming compared to playing online where it's only you, your sibling or someone on skype that's watching you play. There isn't really that much pressure. I think this probably applies for pretty much any existing video game

He isn't saying that online players are not as good as offline players (but that's usually the case most of the time). It's nothing like that. It only gets really annoying when they brag too much. Also, note how he used =/= and not > or <.