Character Competitive Impressions

[Terotrous]

While I think customs are interesting for a lot of characters, for Yoshi I think 1111 is the best set. His other Neutrals might have some use, but Neutral 1 is such a good move that I think it'd be only for a couple matchups at the absolute most. For forward, I feel that 1 is by far the best option. 2 is too slow to be useful and 3 seems completely useless, you can't cancel it fast enough to act out of it and it's just got a bizarre trajectory that I don't see having any kind of use. For Up B, obviously you pretty much never want to give up eggs so UpB 2 is out of the question. UpB3 is generally worse than UpB as it is less controllable, especially from short hop, and short hop egg is one of Yoshi's best tools, however it does pierce, which may make it good against Villager as you can throw it through his stupid tree. DownB1 is also the best option in general. 2 is useless as it gives up its kill power and DownB is one of Yoshi's most important kill moves. DownB3 is just DownB1 but slower and less safe. It doesn't seem to gain much kill power to compensate, so I'd rather just have DownB1 in pretty much every case.


Even if some of the others do have occasional use, 1111 is certainly really solid even if customs are turned on.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I have two questions:

First, what are your impressions of ?
Second, what characters do you feel beat any of the "Big Four" ().


*Disclaimer: I do not endorse the idea that those four characters are automatically the top tier of this game, just going off of what seems to be most often cited in this thread

 

[Berserker.]

I have two questions:

First, what are your impressions of ?

None. My playtime with him is currently sitting at zero seconds :|

Second, what characters do you feel beat any of the "Big Four" ().

*Disclaimer: I do not endorse the idea that those four characters are automatically the top tier of this game, just going off of what seems to be most often cited in this thread

Not my opinion but I'm trusting Shaya with this

For Rosalina and Greninja, Game and Watch

 

[Terotrous]

First, what are your impressions of ?

He's basically back to how he was when he was a good character, but I think the changes in overall system mechanics have brought him down a tad. Still plays pretty much the same and is still a threat if you're not ready for him. SideB kills now, which is nice.

Second, what characters do you feel beat any of the "Big Four" ().

I'd take Yoshi over Greninja since he can armor through DAir with his double jump and punish with Uair, which is a really strong tool. He also beats Greninja in the projectile war since he's a lot more mobile while tossing eggs then Greninja is with his shuriken. Lucario also seems like he might be a counter to Sheik, because she tends to bring people to high percentages and that's not good against Lucario.

In general, other good characters can fight those characters okay, and some of them are likely counters for specific matchups. Are there any mid tier characters who counter them? That's more debatable.

 

[KenMeister]

He's basically back to how he was when he was a good character, but I think the changes in overall system mechanics have brought him down a tad. Still plays pretty much the same and is still a threat if you're not ready for him. SideB kills now, which is nice.



I'd take Yoshi over Greninja since he can armor through DAir with his double jump and punish with Uair, which is a really strong tool. He also beats Greninja in the projectile war since he's a lot more mobile while tossing eggs then Greninja is with his shuriken. Lucario also seems like he might be a counter to Sheik, because she tends to bring people to high percentages and that's not good against Lucario.

In general, other good characters can fight those characters okay, and some of them are likely counters for specific matchups. Are there any mid tier characters who counter them? That's more debatable.

I'd like to also add that Jigglypuff might be a good character to use against Sheik. Sheik's KOing problems become especially noticeable in that matchup if she doesn't land a safe move on her around 120% (like Uair), otherwise she's going to have fish for hard reads to even KO Jiggs.

 

[Spinosaurus]

That does make me wonder, what's everyone's thoughts on Jigglypuff? I keep going back and forth with her. Really unsure about how I feel about her in this game, and she doesn't come up often.

 

[Jabejazz]

That does make me wonder, what's everyone's thoughts on Jigglypuff? I keep going back and forth with her. Really unsure about how I feel about her in this game, and she doesn't come up often.

In my mental tier list, she's currently placed in "I don't wanna play this char without a c-stick" tier.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

@ KenMeister I don't think I can agree with this. One good read with bouncing fish and Jiggs is dead at <100%. Jiggs is a good character now, but I'm willing to bet Sheik can run circles around her all day.

I feel like Greninja is a tad overrated, tbh. He's one of those characters that people might begin figuring out and will drop a bit over time. He won't drop past High tier, but to say he's top 5 when we have characters like Rosalina, Diddy, Sonic, Sheik, Yoshi, and ZSS all being huge problems is a bit of a stretch.

I still stand by my opinion that people are sleeping on Pac-Man and WFT.

 

[Terotrous]

That does make me wonder, what's everyone's thoughts on Jigglypuff? I keep going back and forth with her. Really unsure about how I feel about her in this game, and she doesn't come up often.

A mix of good and bad. I feel that her overall moveset got some nice buffs. Having kill power in Bair is great, and most of her normals got at least a little bit better. She's also got some nice customs that help make some of her previously valueless moves more legitimate. Unfortunately, Shield damage got a big boost in this game, so Jiggs is actually at serious risk of shield break kills now, and she's still preposterously light and easy to KO.

I would tend to guess mid tier. I wouldn't be shocked if she turned out to be high tier, as she does have stuff that seems good, but we need to see someone put it all together first.

 

[The Real Gamer]

What are your favorite moves for zard? I can't decide which ones i like besides dragon rush for side B

I honestly like all of Zard's defaults. I'll switch between Dragon Rush and Flare Blitz depending on the MU.

 

[Rockaphin]

I'm not a strong DK player, but he feels slightly nerfed from Brawl. His Nair has a surprising long start-up as well as his Up-Special. He seems slower, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[Muster]

Kirby also feels like he has a lot of match ups that aren't in his favor, making a lot of his battles very up-hill. Supposedly he's better than he was in brawl, but I'm not seeing it, Everybody else seem to have gotten better too, some considerably so.

Because Kirby is so light,I find myself at KO damage, before I can KO an opponent myself. Seems like most of his moves Ko at around 120-130$ but I've had people survive to 170% before I could kill them. I ran into a megaman earlier and he survived into the 200's, and I still couldn't get a KO on him, granted I was suffering from input lag and his zoning.

Huh, everybody seems to want to talk about Rosa, peach, shiek, greninja, rosalina, marth/luncina, pit/dark pit, little mac, yoshi and that bunch. Just an observation.

I played lots of FG with kirbs the other day and i had a ton of fun, i ended up losing only one match to a japanese samus who camped and spammed projectiles, but everyone else was pretty easy to beat.

You can duck under even ZSS's dash attack! that is insane

I honestly like all of Zard's defaults. I'll switch between Dragon Rush and Flare Blitz depending on the MU.

Ah, i was getting a similar feeling with his customs as well. I personally prefer dragon rush just because i don't like the self damaging aspect of the other 2 versions of the custom.

I still stand by my opinion that people are sleeping on Pac-Man and WFT.

I've played lots of matches with a friend who mains those two chars, and i can tell you they are good characters in some ways.
He usually ended up losing his pac man matches when i realized what the gimmicks around the character was, and started hitting him out of side b/ jumping on his trampoline up B to kill him early, and WFT's hitboxes are super strange, along with all of his/her smash attacks basically having a sound cue that screams "dodge this"

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Whats the key for that ampharos?

Also I know people are hyped about pikachus stun jolt and it is pretty cool, but he does lose a lot in terms of edge guard potential with regular jolt. Regular jolts distance allows you to control the space of a recovering opponent and force a jump. Between this and thunder it gives him a formidable offstage presence. If pikachu ends up having a hard time landing kill moves maybe jolt 2 will be worth it.

Neutral-Side-Up-Down. A ton of those characters will make match-up to match-up variations, but I tried to limit myself to just the overall best set whenever possible. On Pikachu I think the stun jolt is just obviously worth it; it begins comboing to fsmash around 50% which is just nutty and I feel one of the core strengths of Pikachu in this game given that Pikachu has shorter limbs than all of the other quicker combo-style characters, less damage than most of them, only one actually safe aerial, and a combo game that has less actually guaranteed stuff than someone like Mario has anyway so something really powerful and solid like stun I think is really important to this character. Down 2 in particular also kills stupid early on this character so it very well may synchronize well with the stun jolt; I dunno if giving up Thunder is really generally worth it mostly because Thunder is a combo escape, but down 2 really is just great on Pikachu and can do some other funny stuff for him as well (worse recovery characters have a nasty time reaching the ledge if Pikachu just covers it with down 2).

While I think customs are interesting for a lot of characters, for Yoshi I think 1111 is the best set. His other Neutrals might have some use, but Neutral 1 is such a good move that I think it'd be only for a couple matchups at the absolute most. For forward, I feel that 1 is by far the best option. 2 is too slow to be useful and 3 seems completely useless, you can't cancel it fast enough to act out of it and it's just got a bizarre trajectory that I don't see having any kind of use. For Up B, obviously you pretty much never want to give up eggs so UpB 2 is out of the question. UpB3 is generally worse than UpB as it is less controllable, especially from short hop, and short hop egg is one of Yoshi's best tools, however it does pierce, which may make it good against Villager as you can throw it through his stupid tree. DownB1 is also the best option in general. 2 is useless as it gives up its kill power and DownB is one of Yoshi's most important kill moves. DownB3 is just DownB1 but slower and less safe. It doesn't seem to gain much kill power to compensate, so I'd rather just have DownB1 in pretty much every case.


Even if some of the others do have occasional use, 1111 is certainly really solid even if customs are turned on.

I strongly disagree. Yoshi's neutral 3 is just strictly superior to default neutral. The time the opponent is left in the egg is nearly insignificant; good opponents mash out of that so fast that usually Yoshi gets nothing from the special egg state, and even if you do hit the egg, it doesn't really do a lot for you due to its properties. The move is really just about doing a disjointed command grab, potentially from the air, that also repositions the opponent, and neutral 3 catapults the enemy off-stage in most situations which is really awesome. Neutral 2 isn't even bad in its own weird way (lots of momentum fun with it), but I don't see why you'd ever pick neutral 1. All three of Yoshi's side options are bad moves, but side 3 is overall somewhat less awful than side 1. Side 1 is just not a useful move in any meaningful sense; in what match situations do you say "you know, Egg Roll is what I need here"? Side 3 hurls Yoshi a large distance which can get you out of bad stage position and can be a very rare surprise attack due to the sheer movement speed; it's not great and in fact is worth using about once per three stock game, but it's a lot more than you're getting out of side 1 (almost nothing, essentially never done except by accident on awful circle pad trying to low angle eggs but side 2 moves Yoshi the least far if you want to pick a move that is minimally disruptive when done by accident). Yeah, up 1 is pretty obvious. I really like down 2 a lot. Sure down 1 is a good move and is definitely one I'd take in a match-up in which I feel like I'm going to be juggled a lot so I can represent that KO threat, but Yoshi has several other good kill options and the huge stars are ridiculously disruptive. Taking down 2 lets Yoshi use it as a faster fast fall in a lot of situations, and the stars complement eggs in a really nasty way to give Yoshi a really strong zoning game which is important as ultimately I feel like controlling space is a bit stronger on Yoshi than rushing down (though Yoshi is an amazing, versatile character who can do both well, strong top tier candidate really).

---

G&W: I find it hard to talk about G&W without just doing down the line of all the hard nerfs he got from Brawl, but let me talk about his gameplan instead. G&W is a very mobile and very disjointed character, but that's about all he has going for him. His attacks are still very linear, and his moves other than new dthrow kinda don't lead into each other at all so G&W is basically always just playing the neutral game and never really the advantaged game except when he's fishbowl juggling which does less damage now than it used to. G&W's ability to approach a shield has taken a huge hit in this game since turtle isn't really a safe anti-shield move anymore; I'm not entirely sure how this character is supposed to deal with shields since as far as I can tell his entire moveset other than grab (not the greatest grab either) is unsafe on block. So you have this predictable character who is fairly easy to punish when he gets read and blocked; that's... really bad. G&W also severely lacks kill power in this game; the nerfs to fsmash (out of being a useful move at all) and to dsmash sour spot are extremely severe, and he didn't get any power elsewhere to make up for it which means in most match-ups even if you're going even on the damage race you're still probably going to lose since you're one of the lightest characters in the game and have a poor ability to finish stocks. I can't forsee this guy as anything but low tier; I see so little room for him to grow, and he doesn't even seem that dangerous at baseline.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Game and Watch has been my little secret brewing in the background to hype up here. He got nerfed from Brawl in any way at all? I'd really like to know what.

While I'm not sure about being an inherent top tier, this ****er wrecks nearly every perceived high/top tier in the game bar Sheik.
AND I HAVENT EVEN SAT DOWN TO SEE IF HIS FTILT > HER ENTIRE MOVESET YET, IM SURE SOMEONE WILL SHOW IT TO BE TRUE THOUGH.

But okay, how do I put this... this character just... has single tools that counter all the gimmicky/jank.
BY HAVING SO MUCH GIMMICKY JANK OF HIS OWN, HOLY ****.
(INVINCIBILITY ON HIS UP SMASH ON RELEASE IS BALANCED) [he may have invincibility on his head during the charge too]

Warning: incoming immature rhetoric

But let me go over who this character bodies, and why:
1. Rosalina + Luma. I don't think Rosalina and Luma combined have a single move or combination that game and watch doesn't outprioritise, puts luma into stun, looms with a hitbox that just beats or at worse clanks with every single one of rosalina's attack. I have not seen a match up with either as game and watch or against rosalina that is as face roll as me just walking, forward tilting, fairing, and baconing, over and over again. I'm not here to underestimate Rosalina's abilities, but every instance of this match up I've played has been face roll, I made my main training partner drop her, among other things. I cannot believe how much G&W does not have to respect Rosalina at all.

2. Lucario. Three 0% Lucario min charge aurasphere bucketed kills Lucario by 50%. Any above min charge aurasphere gives either 2 or 3 bucket stacks. Side B gives usually 2, sometimes 3.
*jump off stage after lucario because I don't even care what percent they are i'll trollolol them until they're 200%, no problem* Up B at any time you'd feel is relatively close to interception. Kill Lucario, or wind box him up into the stratosphere for a free whatever the **** you want.
Forward Tilt > his footsies.
His means of getting away from uair are like, non existent. Up airing his Up-B is practically orgasmic.
I cannot believe how much G&W does not have to respect Lucario, at 200%, at all.

3. Yoshi: Well, asides from completely negating eggs (thank ****, much like G&W's does luma), his neutral seems pretty good. Ftilt beats a lot of his ground mix ups/attacks. Back air and neutral air > his aerials. Every time yoshi jumps above my head I up-b with invincibility that knocks them out of that armor and sends them to their deaths. Works off stage too. Joyous. I cannot believe how much G&W does not have to respect Yoshi's camp, shield pressure, or range. But I'm sure he can adapt.

4. Little Mac. NO MAC, DON'T DO IT, DON'T RELEASE THAT SMASH ATTACK WITH SUPER ARMOR AS I FEARLESSLY JUMP INTO YOU, DON'T... NOOOOOoooo~ *Up B* ?????????????????? ?? ?? ??
Pro tip: Game and Watch's down tilt has a wind box above the ground for some reason. If Little mac ever side bs on stage or even goes for the ledge with it from off stage, down tilt sends him into the sky in free fall.

5. Greninja. NO GRENINJA, DON'T DO IT, DON'T DOWN AIR TOWARDS ME ITS A TRAP. DON'T... NOooooooOOoO~~~ [up air for days]
NO GRENINJA, DON'T DO IT, DON'T TRY TO RECOVER, JUST TAKE YOUR DIGNITY WITH YOU AND JUST FAST FALL TO YOU DEATH, NOoo NOooooooooooooo [Huge wind box + massive weird water trajectory = dead greninja rocketing into the opposite part of the stage's blast zone]

6. All the fatties:
LoL NEUTRAL AIR (and Up Air actually slows down/freedom traps all those nasty down bs you don't like)

TRY IT OUT, BELIEVE.
*probably loses to all the swordsman (incl. link), Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong.

Every time I play this character against those "good match ups" all I feel is this:
View attachment 28642

and a lot of

You have to space a lot better with Smash 4 G&W because his hitboxes don't linger nearly as long as they used to, and he struggles to get KOs in this game without edgeguards or 9 combos. His D-air (which can't be slowfalled anymore) and B-air notably aren't safe on landing in this game while they instead made his F-air safer on landing.

His neutral game is solid, I won't disagree, but in general G&W has to work harder to KO you than the other way around, considering how light he is. And he's not as mobile as someone like Pikachu and doesn't have the same confirm setups.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Ah, i was getting a similar feeling with his customs as well. I personally prefer dragon rush just because i don't like the self damaging aspect of the other 2 versions of the custom.

DR seems to have a lot more utility as a solid mid-range/offstage tool but Flare Blitz also has its uses as a strong anti-zoning tool for characters that are heavily reliant on weaker projectiles to keep Zard out.

Regardless they're both great for their own reasons.

I'd like Rising Cyclone a lot more if I didn't have to sacrifice vertical recovery, which hurts Zard's offstage game overall (one of his biggest strengths).

 

[PKNintendo]

I already have explored every character in the entire game a lot and have personal preferred sets built with the entire cast. I even started a massive write-up on the topic of recommendations and got through most of the cast, but I didn't finish or post it as I realized that there's just too much subtlety for me to make such recommendations without seriously overlooking options or just missing the match-up subtlety a lot of stuff has. Like I went through Fox and thought his no hit up special was just obviously better than the other two lousy attacking options and that his Falco style blaster was the best of bad choices. Then further exploration showed that the power blaster on Fox is actually really good and that "Twisting Fox" has a variety of actually really strong offensive applications, stuff I wasn't going to find on my own. Likewise, on Falco, Reflector Void instantly destroys Villager's tree and Pac-Man's Fire Hydrant which is different from every other reflector and kinda a huge deal for the utility of the move (Reflector Void is actually ridiculously good, despite Accele-Reflector seeming just straight better at first). I came to realize that there's just no way to give truly useful information like that at this stage of the metagame; that kind of thing will have to be a comprehensive community project many months down the line once we know a lot more than we do now. I do think I'm pretty knowledgable overall about the customs and have explored every last option with every character with some detail (just not enough, it's not even possible to give enough at this point); I feel like all the work I've put into learning about customs and the way I still feel like I have a ton to learn is a sign of the robustness of the system.

However, I will help out a bit and drop the movesets I've found strong with every character which some people might find interesting anyway:

Spoiler: custom movesets

Mario: 2313
Luigi: 2311
Peach: 3312
Bowser: 1211 (against rushdown)/2311(against zoning)
Yoshi: 3312
Rosalina & Luma: 2311
Bowser Jr.: 2113
Wario: 1211
Mr. Game & Watch: 3321
Donkey Kong: 1132
Diddy Kong: 1111 (Diddy's customs are AWFUL)
Link: 2111
Zelda: 3212
Sheik: 1111 (not bad options, just think default is overall best)
Ganondorf: 2322
Toon Link: 1233 (VERY match-up dependent though)
Samus: 1212/2232 (very different, pure preference)
Zero Suit Samus: 1313
Pit: 3113
Palutena: 2321
Marth: 3111
Ike: 1221
Robin: 2131
Kirby: 3112
King Dedede: 3X12 (side special is pure preference, 3 is the most fun but fair trade-offs all around)
Meta Knight: 3212
Little Mac: 1111 (most of his customs are AWFUL, a few match-up niche cases)
Fox: 3331
Falco: 1123
Pikachu: 2211 (down 2 is also very strong but a completely different type of move, very big match-up choice)
Charizard: 3311
Lucario: 2221
Jigglypuff: 1111 (again, AWFUL custom specials)
Greninja: 1312
Duck Hunt: 3133
R.O.B.: 2112
Ness: 1112
Captain Falcon: 2211
Villager:1122
Olimar: 1332
Wii Fit Trainer: 1321
Dr. Mario: 2332
Dark Pit: 1113 (Guiding Arrows are probably better but there is ZERO reason to pick that and not pick default Pit)
Lucina: 3111
Shulk: 1323? (never figured out what I wanted on him well)
Pac-Man: 1222
Mega Man: 1212
Sonic: 3221
Mii Brawler: 1132
Mii Swordfighter: 1331 (default on side and up also very good moves for more defensive style)
Mii Gunner: 3112

I tried to not give too much elaboration since I could write forever about these moves and would be more comfortable just talking about any that are of particular interest, but maybe that's helpful? I think some characters benefit WAY more from this system than others, and in some cases it's about choices versus one goodstuff character to character (like Link is always about the same, but Toon Link has so much variation you can go for match-up to match-up on his quirky projectile variants, have to think like that). Mii Brawler customs are a topic, and I really do think his side 1 is his best move and is a ridiculous move in general (fast, powerful, rushes forward: fantastic move).

Can you elucidate on Robin and Ness's customs? I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on them.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@ Ike Customs from AA: Why Eruption 1? Eruption 2 boosts in recovery and is a gimping option, Eruption 3 is 1 with a bigger hitbox.

 

[deepseadiva]

@ Shaya 's cute tricks with G&W against Lucario do sound silly. That would be a funny counter if those are viable.

 

[popsofctown]

Greninja seems really overrated to me, maybe I just haven't fought a good one. Shielding seems really effective against him. You can even shield his safe-on-block downair and get a tactical advantage of being beneath him which seems worth the shield damage.

 

[Jahordon]

Greninja seems really overrated to me, maybe I just haven't fought a good one. Shielding seems really effective against him. You can even shield his safe-on-block downair and get a tactical advantage of being beneath him which seems worth the shield damage.

Agreed.

Why do people consider ZSS and Greninja to be better than Diddy and Yoshi?

 

[NotLiquid]

That does make me wonder, what's everyone's thoughts on Jigglypuff? I keep going back and forth with her. Really unsure about how I feel about her in this game, and she doesn't come up often.

Jiggs is pretty good. Not up to Melee levels but still a respectable buff from Brawl. She still maintains aerial superiority, some of her ground game has been sped up overall, bit more KO power in general and Rest is actually useful again and can be combo'd into. Only explicit nerfs to her have been to Rollout and Pound, as the latter doesn't provide momentum anymore. Shield breaking is overall more of an issue as well since a lot of characters have an easier time breaking them.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Jiggs is pretty good. Not up to Melee levels but still a respectable buff from Brawl. She still maintains aerial superiority, some of her ground game has been sped up overall, bit more KO power in general and Rest is actually useful again and can be combo'd into. Only explicit nerfs to her have been to Rollout and Pound, as the latter doesn't provide momentum anymore. Shield breaking is overall more of an issue as well since a lot of characters have an easier time breaking them.

Jiggly can break shields with a rollout glitch that makes her conserve all momentum when changing direction. I don't remember how it works exactly but I remember seeing it eat a Little Mac's shield for breakfast.

 

[NotLiquid]

Jiggly can break shields with a rollout glitch that makes her conserve all momentum when changing direction. I don't remember how it works exactly but I remember seeing it eat a Little Mac's shield for breakfast.

I remember that. The problem I have with that is that it's way too flimsy. It still requires too much charge-up and is easily predictable due to how it's set up. Several fighters with ranged options can probably go for an easy punish while others can easily lame it out. Any potentially applicable situation for it are those where Jigglypuff has better options.

 

[popsofctown]

I've seen that tech, it does seem a bit too telegraphed for use beyond surprise factor. Can you use it on shield break victims though? If you could reverse direction fast enough while they are still in hitstun from impact maybe you could get multiple hits.

 

[Terotrous]

I strongly disagree. Yoshi's neutral 3 is just strictly superior to default neutral. The time the opponent is left in the egg is nearly insignificant; good opponents mash out of that so fast that usually Yoshi gets nothing from the special egg state, and even if you do hit the egg, it doesn't really do a lot for you due to its properties.

That is totally not true. Regardless of damage, Yoshi always gets at least Up Smash while the opponent is in the egg, tacking on about 9% extra damage (forward Smash is also possible if the opponent has higher damage, which keeps UpSmash fresh). It's a pretty solid damage racking move, in addition to its positional advantage properties. Also, just in terms of movement, I feel like Neutral 1 is the most useful. The retreating B-reversed neutral 1 that Yoshidora uses extensively in this video is really potent, and also puts Yoshi in a great position to hit the opponent after they get eaten.

All three of Yoshi's side options are bad moves, but side 3 is overall somewhat less awful than side 1. Side 1 is just not a useful move in any meaningful sense; in what match situations do you say "you know, Egg Roll is what I need here"? Side 3 hurls Yoshi a large distance which can get you out of bad stage position and can be a very rare surprise attack due to the sheer movement speed; it's not great and in fact is worth using about once per three stock game, but it's a lot more than you're getting out of side 1 (almost nothing, essentially never done except by accident on awful circle pad trying to low angle eggs but side 2 moves Yoshi the least far if you want to pick a move that is minimally disruptive when done by accident)

I basically agree that all 3 Side Bs have very little use, but I think Side B 1 is generally the best to use because you have the most control over it, which allows you to retreat to a safe place to cancel it. I don't think side B 3 really works as a surprise because you can't stick out an aerial on the way down.

Sure down 1 is a good move and is definitely one I'd take in a match-up in which I feel like I'm going to be juggled a lot so I can represent that KO threat

The thing is that Yoshi's grounded DownB1 is one of his best kill moves. It comes out really fast, seems to have a pretty advantageous hitbox on the way up, and kills at 100-110% on most of the cast. Spotdodge into DownB is just such an amazing way to close out a stock that I'm not really willing to give up that option even if it would help me keep some characters out.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

My current impressions of the roster:

Top Tier


High Tier


Mid Tier


Low Tier


Bottom Tier


Not Sure Yet


Cheese Tier


Will post thoughts on the characters later.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think the main thing I have to complain about in the above list is that most of us generally believe Bowser isn't high tier, simply because his weakness of being huge makes him too easily countered by a lot of things. Specifically projectiles and strong fullhop spacing games. He's a good character when those things aren't an issue, but when they are, he struggles a lot. He's still one of those characters that also happens to be terrible enough in the negative state that his huge weight is somewhat trivialized when his ability to avoid many popular KO setups is weak.

 

[NotLiquid]

I've seen that tech, it does seem a bit too telegraphed for use beyond surprise factor. Can you use it on shield break victims though? If you could reverse direction fast enough while they are still in hitstun from impact maybe you could get multiple hits.

I don't see why you wouldn't just go in for a Rest if it's an elaborate punish you want it for. It's a lot more potent of a move this time around.

My current impressions of the roster:

Top Tier


High Tier


Mid Tier


Low Tier


Bottom Tier


Not Sure Yet


Cheese Tier


Will post thoughts on the characters later.

I'd say as a personal aside, even though it's a fairly liberal approximation, I feel like Ness is a lot more around the lower-high than lower-mid. He's incredibly well-rounded and some of his aerials are godlike, as well as some of the best out-of-shield options. His recovery is one of the few things holding him back.

 

[DonkeyStrong]

Tippy Top Tier


Top Tier


High Tier


Mid Tier


Low Tier


Not Sure Yet

 

[Terotrous]

I think the main thing I have to complain about in the above list is that most of us generally believe Bowser isn't high tier, simply because his weakness of being huge makes him too easily countered by a lot of things.

I still disagree that this is a huge issue in this game. There were a lot of other people putting him at high tier earlier in the topic, too. I think he's still contentious right now and we'll have to see how he does in tournaments.


Incidentally, my main takeaway from the above tierlist is that we should totally start calling Little Mac "Mac n' Cheese".

 

[g0rilla]

Top:
High:
Mid-High:
Mid:
Low:
Bottom:

 

[AvariceX]

Olimar keeps falling off these tier lists. Almost feel sorry for him but after Brawl **** Oli.

Oh and for what it's worth.

Top:


?

High:


?

Mid-High:




Mid:



Low:



Bottom:


Who Knows:

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

It's sad to see that Kirby is getting the shaft again. Even numbered smash bros seem to be bad for Kirby.

 

[g0rilla]

Top:
High:
Mid-High:
Mid:
Low:
Bottom:

Edit: Forgot to put in Bottom tier

Olimar keeps falling off these tier lists. Almost feel sorry for him but after Brawl **** Oli.

Oh and for what it's worth.

Top:


?

High:


?

Mid-High:




Mid:



Low:



Bottom:


Who Knows:

Curious as to why Greninja is above Sheik. Why?

 

[AvariceX]

Curious as to why Greninja is above Sheik. Why?

Mainly Hydro Pump. That move is silly.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Can you elucidate on Robin and Ness's customs? I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on them.

Sure!

Ness I feel is mostly about normals and doesn't actually care about special move choices as much as other characters other than Pk Thunder. Ness's default Pk Thunder is a ridiculously amazing move, a good projectile, a trap move, a potent kill option, and even a mobility option while also being a way better recovery than anyone is ever willing to admit (it's not smash 64 or melee anymore, Ness's recovery works a lot better now!). IMO it's never worth it to take any PKT other than default (the power one especially is super disappointing; we knew from Brawl how much worse the Lucas one is than the Ness one), and that's the main important choice. On neutral, 1 vs 2 is a pretty tight choice. I feel like 1 to trap certain recoveries, especially with Ness's severe dair nerf, is overall more helpful than the anti-air that 2 provides though this will probably come down to playstyle a lot. Pk Freeze is useless and shouldn't be considered. On side, I find that default is a wonderful little trap; even though Pk Fire is a lot less inspiring in this game than in past ones, the weakening of SDI makes it actually easier to get follow-ups out of it and he can get some really nasty ones. Lucas's PKF is a crummy projectile that is overall a bit easier to hit with but also doesn't do a terrible lot for Ness when it does connect; it may be worth it against an SDI monster but I'd prefer to take my chances with a real reward if I have to have a slow projectile. Pk Bonfire is hilarious, but given how easy it is to escape, I'm not sure if it's actually useful except maybe against Villager just to turn his tree fortress into a forest fire. Most foes don't have energy projectiles so thus I feel as though it's a better baseline to have an attack that does something on down, but against the right characters (especially someone like Wii Fit Trainer or Lucario!), the default or "forward" (very similar) PSI Magnets would be useful.

Robin is very easy to analyze. Thunder+ is better than default in every way that matters, and Thoron+ is the single most ridiculous projectile in the game. It does so much multi-hit shield damage that you can't block it, it does insane damage, it's a potent kill move, it hits full screen, and it starts up decently fast even though it has massive recovery (like all Thoron really). This move is the reason you have to always be scared of Robin as his opponent and always be trying to rush him down, just to slow down his charge rate on Thoron+. Quick Thunder does really improve his basic zoning and against a match-up Robin is just not able to handle it could easily be worth it, but you're giving up your big threat that you were playing your game around so the opponent had better be really oppressive before you make that leap. Arcfire is just a ridiculous projectile, everything Pk Fire ever wanted to be, and the custom options do nothing to inspire me to rethink using it. That particular up special is overall the best recovery and has the most useful projectiles, easy choice. IMO all versions of his down special are pretty trashy and not really worth using in any context; default is the most rewarding at least so it's maybe worth trying to hit with if your Levin Sword is drained and you have a good punish opening? Bad moves are often hard to pick.

@ Ike Customs from AA: Why Eruption 1? Eruption 2 boosts in recovery and is a gimping option, Eruption 3 is 1 with a bigger hitbox.

IMO this is Ike's least important slot as all three Eruption variants are kinda trashy... This is true for most characters, but on slots where all three options are kinda bad moves, it's mostly that you pick a move you can imagine yourself using sometime and run with it. I like Eruption 1 entirely for the armor to escape very niche juggle situations... which come up so rarely I haven't even really made use of it, but I never use any version of this move with Ike anyway. Eruption 2 is a very difficult gimp move to land, and I'm not sure it really meaningfully helps his recovery but if you can make real use of it in-game definitely go for it. Eruption 3 just seems horrible to me. Bigger hitbox sure, but it does less damage unless you charge it to the point of self-damage which comes way sooner than default and does more self-damage which for a move you'll land so rarely anyway isn't exactly the most desirable property, and even for a broken shield punish (not that Ike pops shields), Ike is usually more than happy with fully charged and properly spaced fsmash.

---

Isn't it still taboo to post personal tier lists? I could easily pop one out and even have an internal one running, but I'm not really prepared to write a dissertation on why I feel all 51 characters are where they are and don't imagine any of you are either. I will say I disagree very heavily with every tier list posted on this page; seeing someone as fundamentally good as Mario in the low tiers is just... not right, among the myriad other issues I could raise with these lists.

 

[Conda]

Sure!

Ness I feel is mostly about normals and doesn't actually care about special move choices as much as other characters other than Pk Thunder. Ness's default Pk Thunder is a ridiculously amazing move, a good projectile, a trap move, a potent kill option, and even a mobility option while also being a way better recovery than anyone is ever willing to admit (it's not smash 64 or melee anymore, Ness's recovery works a lot better now!). IMO it's never worth it to take any PKT other than default (the power one especially is super disappointing; we knew from Brawl how much worse the Lucas one is than the Ness one), and that's the main important choice. On neutral, 1 vs 2 is a pretty tight choice. I feel like 1 to trap certain recoveries, especially with Ness's severe dair nerf, is overall more helpful than the anti-air that 2 provides though this will probably come down to playstyle a lot. Pk Freeze is useless and shouldn't be considered. On side, I find that default is a wonderful little trap; even though Pk Fire is a lot less inspiring in this game than in past ones, the weakening of SDI makes it actually easier to get follow-ups out of it and he can get some really nasty ones. Lucas's PKF is a crummy projectile that is overall a bit easier to hit with but also doesn't do a terrible lot for Ness when it does connect; it may be worth it against an SDI monster but I'd prefer to take my chances with a real reward if I have to have a slow projectile. Pk Bonfire is hilarious, but given how easy it is to escape, I'm not sure if it's actually useful except maybe against Villager just to turn his tree fortress into a forest fire. Most foes don't have energy projectiles so thus I feel as though it's a better baseline to have an attack that does something on down, but against the right characters (especially someone like Wii Fit Trainer or Lucario!), the default or "forward" (very similar) PSI Magnets would be useful.

Robin is very easy to analyze. Thunder+ is better than default in every way that matters, and Thoron+ is the single most ridiculous projectile in the game. It does so much multi-hit shield damage that you can't block it, it does insane damage, it's a potent kill move, it hits full screen, and it starts up decently fast even though it has massive recovery (like all Thoron really). This move is the reason you have to always be scared of Robin as his opponent and always be trying to rush him down, just to slow down his charge rate on Thoron+. Quick Thunder does really improve his basic zoning and against a match-up Robin is just not able to handle it could easily be worth it, but you're giving up your big threat that you were playing your game around so the opponent had better be really oppressive before you make that leap. Arcfire is just a ridiculous projectile, everything Pk Fire ever wanted to be, and the custom options do nothing to inspire me to rethink using it. That particular up special is overall the best recovery and has the most useful projectiles, easy choice. IMO all versions of his down special are pretty trashy and not really worth using in any context; default is the most rewarding at least so it's maybe worth trying to hit with if your Levin Sword is drained and you have a good punish opening? Bad moves are often hard to pick.



IMO this is Ike's least important slot as all three Eruption variants are kinda trashy... This is true for most characters, but on slots where all three options are kinda bad moves, it's mostly that you pick a move you can imagine yourself using sometime and run with it. I like Eruption 1 entirely for the armor to escape very niche juggle situations... which come up so rarely I haven't even really made use of it, but I never use any version of this move with Ike anyway. Eruption 2 is a very difficult gimp move to land, and I'm not sure it really meaningfully helps his recovery but if you can make real use of it in-game definitely go for it. Eruption 3 just seems horrible to me. Bigger hitbox sure, but it does less damage unless you charge it to the point of self-damage which comes way sooner than default and does more self-damage which for a move you'll land so rarely anyway isn't exactly the most desirable property, and even for a broken shield punish (not that Ike pops shields), Ike is usually more than happy with fully charged and properly spaced fsmash.

---

Isn't it still taboo to post personal tier lists? I could easily pop one out and even have an internal one running, but I'm not really prepared to write a dissertation on why I feel all 51 characters are where they are and don't imagine any of you are either. I will say I disagree very heavily with every tier list posted on this page; seeing someone as fundamentally good as Mario in the low tiers is just... not right, among the myriad other issues I could raise with these lists.

Great points. If you could just break up the lines and do some general formatting to make it easier on the eyes, that'd be great. Keep it up!

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I have a stroke everytime I see these pro bowser and anti Mario lists.

 

[A2ZOMG]

seeing someone as fundamentally good as Mario in the low tiers is just... not right, among the myriad other issues I could raise with these lists.

Mario is just...okay with customs at best. They make him viable. On default settings, you're talking a character who can't afford to trade hits, is terrible in mid range, can't KO with aerials, and also is easily juggled and edgeguarded. And he has to hard read you to make his "combo" game work, and while his FLUDD is significantly better in this game, it at best only just enables Mario to make reads, rather than getting him anything seriously guaranteed

I have a stroke everytime I see these pro bowser and anti Mario lists.

Both characters are very significantly overrated. Nobody seems to want to acknowledge the ways these characters get trolled in both neutral and negative state. Bowser at least has good pokes and great damage per hit. Mario doesn't even get much of anything.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

And I have an aneurism every time I see Ike in bottom tier.

Here's a hint: stop trying to space with Fairs with Ike in SSB4.

@ Eruption: Eruption 3's larger hitbox = great for punishing recovery attempts. I don't find Eruption 1's super armour to be useful, they nerfed its frame count.