Character Competitive Impressions

[Big O]

@ Fox Is Openly Deceptive I am going to go out on a limb here and say that all the stuff being missing will soon be patched out of the 3DS version as well. They are playing a 2 week early copy of the game after all.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yoshi's glitches with the Ledge jump stuff or custom moves with the super high jump has been removed.
And nothing of value was lost that day.

Is this confirmed?

It's not unlikely that the WiiU version already has the first real "patch" relative to the 3DS version, since it got ~2 extra months of QA time.

I would expect the 3DS version to get a patch that brings this to equivalent, that did not begin the international certification process until after the WiiU version went gold. Expecting it around the WiiU version's launch is not unreasonable, though we're talking about a complicated international rollout of hypothetical software.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Is this confirmed?

It's not unlikely that the WiiU version already has the first real "patch" relative to the 3DS version, since it got ~2 extra months of QA time.

I would expect the 3DS version to get a patch that brings this to equivalent, that did not begin the international certification process until after the WiiU version went gold. Expecting it around the WiiU version's launch is not unreasonable, though we're talking about a complicated international rollout of hypothetical software.

Well I mean.
Yeah, the 3DS version is basically a demo and a way to break peoples circle pads so they can buy another 3DS or if people are crazy enough, to buy the 3DS with a c-stick. A good marketing strategy if you ask me.
Anyways,
http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-wiiu.377189/

 

[TLMSheikant]

I guess in the event that item toss lag cancelling really is gone, TL at least still has short-fuse bombs. Peach is also solid in general so I think she will be fine without turnip float cancelling. Poor Link again though...

 

[Conda]

TL is still a beast, don't you guys worry.

 

[Z'zgashi]

So... what exactly does you getting used to Rosalina's customs have to do anything? With enough playing time, everyone will get used to everything. The question is whether or not the custom moves are an effective tool for Rosalina, which I think they are.

I mean I adapted to the point where it was same old Vanilla Rosy in terms of how difficult the match up was.

 

[Thinkaman]

People will undoubtedly complain when favorable bugs and janky tricks get removed from their character, but the game should clearly be balanced around fundamentals rather than unintuitive shenanigans.

The game shouldn't be biased in favor of jerks like me who obsessively investigate everything.

 

[sunset_raven]

I guess in the event that item toss lag cancelling really is gone, TL at least still has short-fuse bombs. Peach is also solid in general so I think she will be fine without turnip float cancelling. Poor Link again though...

And yeah, Link got the short end of the stick here, but I wouldn't discard him just yet. He does have Meteor Bombs and Quickfire Bow.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Does anyone else think that this might lead to people keeping discoveries to themselves for fear of having it patched? And if so, is this alternative desirable? Because I don't think it would be.

 

[sunset_raven]

Does anyone else think that this might lead to people keeping discoveries to themselves for fear of having it patched? And if so, is this alternative desirable? Because I don't think it would be.

Comparing to other FGs, I don't think so. Maybe there will be people trying to hold on to their tech until a major shows up. This could potentially hurt only if Nintendo decides to patch once and let go.

 

[meleebrawler]

People will undoubtedly complain when favorable bugs and janky tricks get removed from their character, but the game should clearly be balanced around fundamentals rather than unintuitive shenanigans.

The game shouldn't be biased in favor of jerks like me who obsessively investigate everything.

So you're OK with possibly losing infinite Lightweight?

 

[Conda]

Important Note:

YES, the tether animations for Link and Toon Link are different in the Wii U version. The chain hits the floor if you miss, like in Brawl. HOWEVER, the recovery speed is the same. It's not slower because of this, it's just a different animation for the more high def Wii U version.

 

[Cruncher93]

Would this thread be the right place to discuss qualitative rankings of specific gameplay aspects? There are quantitative lists for running speed and weight, but for example which characters do you guys and gals think are best in playing keep away through projectiles? Or other specific aspects, just for a change of pace in this thread.

 

[Thinkaman]

So you're OK with possibly losing infinite Lightweight?

Yeah, it's janky and dumb.

Sorry Palutena; you're my favorite atm, and you better believe I'll be exploiting this as much as possible until it's removed, but buggy stuff like this that only works on certain stages is not what the game should be about.

 

[sunset_raven]

Would this thread be the right place to discuss qualitative rankings of specific gameplay aspects? There are quantitative lists for running speed and weight, but for example which characters do you guys and gals think are best in playing keep away through projectiles? Or other specific aspects, just for a change of pace in this thread.

I'm trying to do exactly that, while focussing instead on keepaway vs Rosa, which might be the single most complicated character to beat to anyone that depends on projectiles.

To keep up with the subject: Rosa vs Villager - if GP nullifies Lloid, fAir / bAir, DA, how to push Rosa?

 

[SonicZeroX]

Wait so if things are being fixed, is Dedede's stupid Gordo freeze glitch finally gone? What about the Marth/Lucina counter glitch, or Rush/Popgun canceling?

 

[Shaya]

I'm curious to hear why you put Palutena in this section. I think I have an idea of why you do, mostly the bursts of mobility she has right? I also presume she is more in the zone breaking part then in the rush down part. But I'm not entirely sure she fits here that well, personally think she might be better in your "Mid range spacing/precision" section.

She definitely just chooses to ignore things in a lot of ways, and does so at extremely high speeds, so yeah, I consider her more so having the tools to negate than rushdown by default.

How is Lucario a heavy hybrid? He's about as middleweight as you can get. I'd also probably move Ness into the Midrange Spacing/Precision class, though I admit I'm not an expert on him. Most of the other classifications I can kind of understand even if I might classify them differently.

You're right in the sense that he isn't "heavy" like the others, he's around 20th rather than in the top 1/3rd. But he hits harder than any heavy.
Ness is kinda odd, he fits in my mind as zone breaking, he has several large disjointed tools and technically 3 projectiles, none of which though are usable outside of positional advantage though (no, pk fire backroll isn't a thing). PK Fire can disrupt a lot of physical zoning tools, he has magnet for energy absorption. I think he's somewhere between zone breaking / precision, but he seems to lack a lot of things which I'd compare to Pit, ZSS or Jigglypuff.

~~~~

If I'm seeing the picture painted as Foxy intends, I think the main thing that anyone can take from it is z dropping bombs without zairing is back... INVINCIBLE BOMBS (and being able to then zair out of it) WAS LITERALLY THE KEY STONE TO THEIR GAME PLAY IN BRAWL (well, TL 200%, Link, not so much).

Being able to cancel landing/hitstun/whatever with a bomb in hand is a pretty cool thing to do, not going to lie. But I know a few toon link mains who are probably going to actually be happy about the world again.

 

[popsofctown]

Wait so if things are being fixed, is Dedede's stupid Gordo freeze glitch finally gone? What about the Marth/Lucina counter glitch, or Rush/Popgun canceling?

Is the Gordo freeze glitch easily replicated? If it's tough to replicate, it's tough to fix

 

[Thinkaman]

Wait so if things are being fixed, is Dedede's stupid Gordo freeze glitch finally gone? What about the Marth/Lucina counter glitch, or Rush/Popgun canceling?

We are waiting on additional reports. All we know right now is that report of multiple Yoshi bugfixes.

 

[BBC7]

Wait so if things are being fixed, is Dedede's stupid Gordo freeze glitch finally gone? What about the Marth/Lucina counter glitch, or Rush/Popgun canceling?

things are being fixed

Rush canceling?

stupid

things are being fixed, what about Rush canceling?

Oh god no, I need that for my main to have a chance at viability.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Aw man, it was fun to waste 7 seconds by egg rolling across the stage then teleporting back to the ledge lol

 

[BBC7]

I'm confident that Rush Cancelling is still in though, isn't hitstun cancelling literally just a game mechanic that just so happens to be very exploitable with Mega Man Up B? Diddy can also do it with Neutral B, Pikachu with Down B and Dr. Mario can sometimes hitstun cancel with Up B. Everyone could hitstun cancel in Brawl from what I remember. The hitstun was just barely improved from Brawl so I'm not surprised hitstun cancel still exists. The only ways I can see the removal of Rush Cancelling is to:

1. Change Rush Coil so that it comes out in more than 1 frame, as well as change the frame data for any other move that is able to do this AT.
2. Change hit-stun multiplier

 

[Mr. Johan]

Should probably check to see if Peach's float aerials stale now, since Smash 3DS is basically the odd one out and could have just been an oversight, or something meticulously specific to program correctly on the 3DS software. Whether they do or not could really change some matchups and strings Peach has.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm trying to do exactly that, while focussing instead on keepaway vs Rosa, which might be the single most complicated character to beat to anyone that depends on projectiles.

To keep up with the subject: Rosa vs Villager - if GP nullifies Lloid, fAir / bAir, DA, how to push Rosa?

I don't know the frame data, but I'd certainly feel very unsafe trying to GP fair/bair. It also comes out fast enough that I doubt it can be absorbed on reaction, so I'd have to anticipate it and if I guess wrong that's a punish for you.

Again though I don't know the frame data for GP. That's actually something I'd be really interested in, but it'll probably have to wait until the Wii U version where people have better capture setups.

 

[NairWizard]

The big heavy characters are continuously growing in my impressions. Have people seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZIa8ZfSlc&feature=youtu.be

Crazy. Some of these mobility options that giant characters have now I think will trump the limitations of their stature. I wouldn't be surprised to see both Bowser and Donkey Kong in top tier with their customs. DK's customs in particular are absurd for mobility (down-b, side-b, and up-b can all give him landing options, along with his new d-air, which is what DK has always needed the most). Just ban FD.

 

[Nabbitnator]

for some reason I think the wii u version will have significant changes to certain characters.

 

[BBC7]

Oh well, if I lose Rush Cancelling, then I have another bug to look forward to, apparently. Go to 0:21 on the second video and try to tell me that the size of the U-Air doesn't look insanely huge. I don't know how it happened but it looks ok 10/10

EDIT: Wrong video, this is a TAS 64 video I was watching. I'll just keep it since I don't know what to do with it now

 

[SonicZeroX]

Um... that's a clip of Smash 64 you linked...

 

[BBC7]

Um... that's a clip of Smash 64 you linked...

Looks fine to me

 

[SonicZeroX]

You know, I don't think I've ever seen Megaman's uair done on the Wii U before so maybe that's just what it looks like normally?

 

[BBC7]

You know, I don't think I've ever seen Megaman's uair done on the Wii U before so maybe that's just what it looks like normally?

I hope not, the thing looks like it can devour Bowser whole. It never looked like that in the 3DS version, and the Mega Man 2 game depicted the tornadoes as very small. This is a Cyclone Shooter I'm seeing, not an Air Shooter. Unless that happens to be accurate to hitbox size, I'm all for it in that case.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I'm pretty sure that cherry should have fell out of that up air in the 3ds version. I wonder if the hitboxes match.

 

[MisterVisceral]

People keep putting Junior in low/mid tier because they don't understaaaand

Possible topic starter: How does Bowser Jr. match up against Mac with his weight and damage mitigation mechanic coupled with Mac not having an air game, so the Jr. player can maneuver in a way that if he gets hit it is more likely to take less damage than normal? Will Jr. be able to almost always gimp Mac with a thrown giant mechakoopa due to the size and power coupled with Mac's predictable recovery?

Gimping little mac is totes easy with Fair, easier with drift kart frisbeeing. He doesn't stand... a ghost of a chance!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The big heavy characters are continuously growing in my impressions. Have people seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZIa8ZfSlc&feature=youtu.be

Crazy. Some of these mobility options that giant characters have now I think will trump the limitations of their stature. I wouldn't be surprised to see both Bowser and Donkey Kong in top tier with their customs. DK's customs in particular are absurd for mobility (down-b, side-b, and up-b can all give him landing options, along with his new d-air, which is what DK has always needed the most). Just ban FD.

So, Bowser has a super armour, lagless wavedash now?

 

[popsofctown]

Don't think the super armor comes out that fast on it.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Also it's more like a waveland than a wavedash.

 

[BBC7]

So, Bowser has a super armour, lagless wavedash now?

The original OG. (Bowser's looks way more effective but I guess the fact that Mega Man has a pseudo-wavedash is cool)

 

[sunset_raven]

Don't think the super armor comes out that fast on it.

AFAIK, Bowser can be hit out of it at the startup.

 

[Shaya]

People keep putting Junior in low/mid tier because they don't understaaaand

No point making this comment unless you're willing to help us understand. I'm still going to think Junior is a low tier character until I "understand" how a character with nothing good (and I've played against a LOT of Bowser Jr) does anything. And if you dare try to make out that "cart" is the answer to all problems, then you'll just be showing your lack of understanding.

 

[Ffamran]

How is Lucario a heavy hybrid? He's about as middleweight as you can get. I'd also probably move Ness into the Midrange Spacing/Precision class, though I admit I'm not an expert on him. Most of the other classifications I can kind of understand even if I might classify them differently.

I think heavy hybrid should have been named middleweights or light, hard-hitters. They're not heavy like Ike or Ganondorf, but they hit almost as hard as them.

that is true but what im saying hmm lets put ot like this street fighter's dalsim in not a qcq in videogame logic. give a character a sword? not qcq. the fact that snake has the smae range as pit fuels this reasoning of snake not really being qcq in the smash series but hey to each there own.

In military and Metal Gear logic, close quarters combat involves pretty much any weapon and fast, close-range fighting. Watch a fight scene from Metal Gear Solid 3 and on and you'll notice that Snake and Big Boss will use both their hands and firearms interchangeably.

In a video game, there's some issues since a sword is general term. In some games, a two-handed sword is considered short-ranged since monsters and other weapons like, say, a halberd has much more range. Some fighters use sabers, but fight extremely short-ranged while others lunge making them mid-ranged. Then you have fighters who use knives and short swords who will generally fight short-ranged, but some do fight mid-ranged or even long-ranged if they use throwing knives.

So, Link and Toon Link use swords like "regular" people along with their gear. Their swords makes it so they're fighting short to mid-ranged while their gear allows them to fight at long range. Marth and Lucina can only fight at short to mid-range since they have no projectiles or a rush-in attack like Ike's quickdraw. Meta Knight fights more at short range with mid-ranged tools which are all specials. Normals, aerials, and smashes makes him more of a close-range fighter since not only is he smaller than most fighters, but his sword would be considered a dagger to Shulk who borderlines a long-ranged sword fighter because of the Monado's range.

A CQC fighter is someone who fights well at extremely close ranges. They may have mid and/or long-range capabilities, but they shine at close range. Anyone can shoot a gun, but not a lot of people can grapple, throw, and disrupt others like Big Boss or Little Mac. Likewise, anyone can throw a (poorly-executed) punch, but not everyone can rain hellfire like Megaman and Samus.