Character Competitive Impressions

[Latias]

Ok but her aerials R really fast to the point I think that it's possible to punish her dtilt. She can still sheild grab before ZSS can do another action. I'm not saying that she's a bad character I'm just saying that the MU seems unfavorable for ZSS.

@ kyxsune id say 60-40 but ok

You can't shield grab downtilt, ZSS downtilt has really large range, its probably a little less than her side b range. Also looking at the frame data for down tilt, you'd only have 10 frames or so to punish it.

 

[The Twinkie]

You can't shield grab downtilt, ZSS downtilt has really large range, its probably a little less than her side b range. Also looking at the frame data for down tilt, you'd only have 10 frames or so to punish it.

I think in the period of time jigglypuff can dair which does a good amount of damage and can be auto canceled into rest.
I gotta admit that ZSS has a lot of good MUs but I'm pretty sure jigglypuff is one of the few that arent

 

[Kofu]

ZSS lost some power on her aerials but she gained an FSmash in this game. No, that sad excuse for a whipping attack didn't count as an FSmash.

On flat stages she does well against characters that don't have the means or mobility to avoid her Paralyzer, also probably the case on most stages with platforms. Her direct aerial game isn't as scary as it was in Brawl, though.

Sorry, I don't have much experience against ZSS.

 

[David Viran]

Actually wouldn't it be a little less then 10 because even though there's not much shield stun there is a little and it might make a difference in this situation.

 

[warriorman222]

I'd put in a system that balances each character to Akuma tier. Who else is with me?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

My main character is superior to a top tier.

Oh no a teir list lets complain then talk about it regardless.

Diddy just got a counter guys.

Fk u ganon's not bad.

Random character discussion

*edit* Occasional post of this threads cycle @ Luco

Pikachus actually god.

Falco's being slept on

Mario debate.

This is the natural cycle of this thread. and i love every moment of it. xd

 

[David Viran]

ZSS lost some power on her aerials but she gained an FSmash in this game. No, that sad excuse for a whipping attack didn't count as an FSmash.

On flat stages she does well against characters that don't have the means or mobility to avoid her Paralyzer, also probably the case on most stages with platforms. Her direct aerial game isn't as scary as it was in Brawl, though.

Sorry, I don't have much experience against ZSS.

ZSS still has arguably one the best air games in the game. Bair is not as noob friendly because you can't just throw it out there and hit it everytime but is still very powerful you have to be precise. Fair deals a consistent 12 damage and is easier to connect with both hits. Up air still juggles super hard but deals two percent less damage. Nair got buffed with more range less landing lag and like combos into everything.

 

[Luco]

My main character is superior to a top tier.

Oh no a teir list lets complain then talk about it regardless.

Diddy just got a counter guys.

Fk u ganon's not bad.

Random character discussion

Pikachus actually god.

Falco's being slept on

Mario debate.

This is the natural cycle of this thread. and i love every moment of it. xd

You should add: "several line posts covering the cycle of the thread", as you're not the first person to have made this kind of post.

It's all good, though.

@ kyxsune I must say i'm surprised you think Ness is your worst MU; because i'm inclined to agree with @Supermodel From Paris 's interpretation of it as an even MU. What makes you think it's ZSS' worst MU? Not trying to shut you down, i'm just curious. ^_^

EDIT: Whoops, my bad hahaha.

 

[David Viran]

You should add: "several line posts covering the cycle of the thread", as you're not the first person to have made this kind of post.

It's all good, though.

@ David Viran I must say i'm surprised you think Ness is your worst MU; because i'm inclined to agree with @Supermodel From Paris 's interpretation of it as an even MU. What makes you think it's ZSS' worst MU? Not trying to shut you down, i'm just curious. ^_^

I never said that somebody else did because I think it's a pretty even match up too.

 

[Noa.]

I also feel that the Ness ZSS matchup is quite even. I''m not too well versed in it but Zss has a lot of safe options that don't have a lot of commitment in neutral. ZSS's down b also makes it very easy for her to escape out of pk thunder harass offstage, which Ness relies on quite heavily.

 

[kyxsune]

You should add: "several line posts covering the cycle of the thread", as you're not the first person to have made this kind of post.

It's all good, though.

@ kyxsune I must say i'm surprised you think Ness is your worst MU; because i'm inclined to agree with @Supermodel From Paris 's interpretation of it as an even MU. What makes you think it's ZSS' worst MU? Not trying to shut you down, i'm just curious. ^_^

EDIT: Whoops, my bad hahaha.

Well, I'm not a high level player, but the range on his aerials are deceptive and he can KO quite a bit earlier than ZSS with a throw. The Match up between them usually becomes a war of attrition as far as percentages go, one in which ness has a slight edge. Throw in a means to neutralize her paralyzer and a strong off stage game and he becomes a hassel.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I'd put in a system that balances each character to Akuma tier. Who else is with me?

If its like AE2012 then nope I cant deal with that type of akuma tier again.
So can anyone give an explanation on how jiggly deals with most characters in this game?

 

[Luco]

I never said that somebody else did because I think it's a pretty even match up too.

yeahhh my bad I mixed up the names.

@ kyxsune - Hmm, interesting. I've done the MU before but I don't claim to have mountains of experience with it - I feel that ZSS' neutral + footsies game is enhanced by her lasers which actually stun for a significant length of time now. Once I get in I can do damage and you know the risk v reward is skewed when I at just below 130% can Bthrow kill ZSS at just below 100% from the middle of FD haha... but I think her footsies probably beats ours, or at least goes on par with it - and once she gets in she'll do damage. I dunno how I feel about it, perhaps it's VERY VERY slightly in our favour due to the fact that if she's struggling to kill us then we will really hurt her but it's probably not enough to warrant anything other than even.

 

[kyxsune]

If its like AE2012 then nope I cant deal with that type of akuma tier again.
So can anyone give an explanation on how jiggly deals with most characters in this game?

crouch->shield->rest.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Let me reword that. How is she on a competitive level? Does she fair well against most opponents? Does she have any polarizing match ups?

 

[kyxsune]

yeahhh my bad I mixed up the names.

@ kyxsune - Hmm, interesting. I've done the MU before but I don't claim to have mountains of experience with it - I feel that ZSS' neutral + footsies game is enhanced by her lasers which actually stun for a significant length of time now. Once I get in I can do damage and you know the risk v reward is skewed when I at just below 130% can Bthrow kill ZSS at just below 100% from the middle of FD haha... but I think her footsies probably beats ours, or at least goes on par with it - and once she gets in she'll do damage. I dunno how I feel about it, perhaps it's VERY VERY slightly in our favour due to the fact that if she's struggling to kill us then we will really hurt her but it's probably not enough to warrant anything other than even.

Tbh, my experience with the match up is only in for glory (where the emphasis is on defensive play), so footsies and cqc is less seen overall. You raise a valid point, in cqc we have an edge but in the mid range to close range combat transition ness just has more options.

 

[warriorman222]

If its like AE2012 then nope I cant deal with that type of akuma tier again.
So can anyone give an explanation on how jiggly deals with most characters in this game?

... Something called a joke.

 

[B0NK]

Well Bair still has as much if not more kill power as it did in brawl also her down special spike kills a lot earlier now because of no meteor canceling. Up special kills really well also.

No, bair really was stronger in Brawl lol

Not that it's weak in Smash 4 per say.

Up Special is the bae I love it.

I know you prolly missed my tier list. I had ZSS pretty high. I think she's good not trying to imply she isn't lol.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

No, bair really was stronger in Brawl lol

Not that it's weak in Smash 4 per say.

Up Special is the bae I love it.

I know you prolly missed my tier list. I had ZSS pretty high. I think she's good not trying to imply she isn't lol.

if 80 is kill percents in brawl and 100 is in smash 4 the kill power is more the same than we think.

 

[B0NK]

Nope.

 

[Noa.]

Well, I'm not a high level player, but the range on his aerials are deceptive and he can KO quite a bit earlier than ZSS with a throw. The Match up between them usually becomes a war of attrition as far as percentages go, one in which ness has a slight edge. Throw in a means to neutralize her paralyzer and a strong off stage game and he becomes a hassel.

The Ness ZSS matchup reminds me a lot of the Ness Sheik matchup. Both characters are stronger in neutral and are better at wracking up damage and getting hits compared to Ness. But Ness can kill both of them much much more easily compared to how easily they can kill us. I feel like Sheik against Ness is stronger in the advantaged state though compared to ZSS. But ZSS can escape out of Ness's traps a lot more easily in comparison to Sheik. I think both matchups are even so meh. Some Ness mains think that the Sheik matchup is a disadvantage for us. I could see that.

Let me reword that. How is she on a competitive level? Does she fair well against most opponents? Does she have any polarizing match ups?

I have limited experience with Puff in tournament, and will only speak to the Ness matchup. It feels that right now Ness might win just because of how insanely early he can kill Jiggs with uair and bthrow, but I feel like this can become a disadvantageous matchup for us in the future. Ness relies quite heavily on his air game, and as Jiggs players get better and better at spacing and using their bairs, fairs, and nairs that would help improve the matchup for them tremendously. The biggest thing though is that as a character Ness relies on a very heavily risk reward ratio. The speed and commitment of his attacks is disproportionate to how much damage and KO power they have, in a way that heavily benefits him as a character. He does have more risk and commitment in his moves compared to other top and high tiers like Diddy, Sheik, and ZSS but he can usually get away with it. Against Jiggs however rest is a very scary option that she has against Ness. Using rest to punish a dash grab whiff, a dash attack on shield, or a whiffed pk fire is very effective against Ness. Ness leaves himself open pretty often, and most characters can't punish it as hard as Jiggs can with rest. Of course this will only come with time and matchup knowledge. Most Jiggs players right now are not confident enough to use rest to punish moves that have just enough lag on them to get rested.

 

[Luco]

Although, the issue with Jiggs is that I believe even trying to space her aerial we still beat her out. A friend and rival of mine uses Jiggs and I felt like I was tearing through his aerial game. Maybe spacing would have a bigger effect though, I dunno. But I agree with your analysis @ Noa.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Nope.

welp my argument is neutralized you clearly have bested me.

 

[Citrussed]

I feel like people are sleeping hard on Wii Fit Trainer.

With Deep Breathing active and Nair > Upsmash, she can kill people at relatively low percentages.

 

[DanGR]

I've been hesitant until recently to form a tier list of my own. Not only has 1 patch changed the entire meta's landscape, we've yet to truly experience the breadth custom moveset legalization will bring to the game as well. Despite my ignorance of some of the characters in the game, which I'll list below, and both me and my local community's support for custom moveset legalization, I've formed my own preliminary tier list for patch 1.0.4 with customs banned. I've been adjusting a notepad document on my desktop for a while now, documenting changes in my opinion since 1.0.4's release.

Characters I'm not comfortable placing yet include Mario, Luigi, Wario, Peach, Bowser, Ike, DHD, Villager, Lucario, Gunner, ZSS, and Falco. I suppose I could pretend to have a refined opinion on all the characters' competitive value less than a month into the game, and have a complete list... but I'd rather have a more accurate list that reflects how I currently view the meta.
----------------------------------------------
-A Tier-

-B Tier-

(Likely more)

-C&D Tier-
The rest of the cast.
----------------------------------------------

A Tier: I think these 4 are a small step above the rest of the cast, though Ness and Sonic follow close behind. They don't seem to particularly struggle with any very relevant matchups in A and B tier besides Diddy because their strengths more than make up for or cover their few weaknesses. It's difficult deciding on a cut-off point between A and B tier. Tiers represent rifts or distinct ideological differences between one set of characters and the next. The distinction I made between A and B tier is that I think you could easily go without a secondary with these 4 in patch 1.0.4 and win a national tournament, unlike those in B tier who have weaknesses that make for either somewhat of a volatile character or one with clear weaknesses that can be exploited in a variety of ways.

B Tier: I'm judging characters on whether or not they make it into this tier based on how likely I think they are to win large local or regional tournaments by themselves. Although characters with more polarizing matchup spreads like Villager, Megaman, and Rosalina are very unlikely to win large tournaments alone, I've accounted for the attribute of having higher than average matchups against some A or high-B tier characters, making them a fantastic counterpick option. For example, right now I think Rosalina very handily beats slow characters and/or characters with more linear approach options against Rosalina like Ness, Captain Falcon, and Robin, but struggles against speedy punish and/or trap characters with solid mixups like Fox, Sonic, and Sheik, or really anyone that can dispose of Luma quickly. Also, this tier is bigger than I've shown and I'll keep adding characters to it as I better understand the potential in some of the underused characters. This game is way more balanced than the other smash games, and it's necessary that the tier sizes reflect that. I'm very confident in my top 7- less so in the order past that.

C Tier & D Tier: Realistically, I think there's only 3, maybe 4 tiers. It's pretty crazy to theorize more than 4, imo, given how I separated each tier. I think it'd be really surprising, but not unheard of, for any of the characters in my C&D Tiers to win anything past a large local, assuming the player isn't far and away more skilled than everyone else.

I'm ready to answer any questions about my list.

 

[NairWizard]

I've been hesitant until recently to form a tier list of my own. Not only has 1 patch changed the entire meta's landscape, we've yet to truly experience the breadth custom moveset legalization will bring to the game as well. Despite my ignorance of some of the characters in the game, which I'll list below, and both me and my local community's support for custom moveset legalization, I've formed my own preliminary tier list for patch 1.0.4 with customs banned. I've been adjusting a notepad document on my desktop for a while now, documenting changes in my opinion since 1.0.4's release.

Characters I'm not comfortable placing yet include Mario, Luigi, Wario, Peach, Bowser, Ike, DHD, Villager, Lucario, Gunner, and Falco. I suppose I could pretend to have a refined opinion on all the characters' competitive value less than a month into the game, and have a complete list... but I'd rather have a more accurate list that reflects how I currently view the meta.
----------------------------------------------
-A Tier-

-B Tier-

(Maybe a few more)

-C&D Tier-
The rest of the cast.
----------------------------------------------

A Tier: I think these 4 are a small step above the rest of the cast, though Ness and Sonic follow close behind. They don't seem to particularly struggle with any very relevant matchups in A and B tier besides Diddy because their strengths more than make up for or cover their few weaknesses. It's difficult deciding on a cut-off point between A and B tier. Tiers represent rifts or distinct ideological differences between one set of characters and the next. The distinction I made between A and B tier is that I think you could easily go without a secondary with these 4 in patch 1.0.4 and win a national tournament, unlike those in B tier who have weaknesses that make for either somewhat of a volatile character or one with clear weaknesses that can be exploited in a variety of ways.

B Tier: I'm judging characters on whether or not they make it into this tier based on how likely I think they are to win large local or regional tournaments by themselves. Although characters with more polarizing matchup spreads like Villager, Megaman, and Rosalina are very unlikely to win large tournaments alone, I've accounted for the attribute of having higher than average matchups against some A or high-B tier characters, making them a fantastic counterpick option. For example, right now I think Rosalina very handily beats slow characters and/or characters with more linear approach options against Rosalina like Ness, Captain Falcon, and Robin, but struggles against speedy punish and/or trap characters with solid mixups like Fox, Sonic, and Sheik, or really anyone that can dispose of Luma quickly. Also, this tier is bigger than I've shown and I'll keep adding characters to it as I better understand the potential in some of the underused characters. This game is way more balanced than the other smash games, and it's necessary that the tier sizes reflect that. I'm very confident in my top 7- less so in the order past that.

C Tier & D Tier: Realistically, I think there's only 3, maybe 4 tiers. It's pretty crazy to theorize more than 4, imo, given how I separated each tier. I think it'd be really surprising, but not unheard of for any of the characters in my C&D Tiers to win anything past a large local, assuming the player isn't far and away more skilled than everyone else.

I'm ready to answer any questions about my list.

This post is the most reasonable tier list post I have ever seen (and just as I was about to give up on this topic due to all the tier lists being posted). Kudos.

(And no, that's not just because Pikachu is top 4, though I did notice that and approve) Ness, Megaman, Shulk, Robin, Pit and Dark Pit -- agreed on pretty much everything, found myself nodding through all your reasoning on the structure too. I'm not sure how I feel about Fox in Top Tier, but I can't deny that he has the tools to win a national (he doesn't get wrecked in any matchup, that much is true, maybe slight losses to Sheik/Pikachu/Diddy, edit: and Mii Gunner).

Very nice, though, overall. +1, very little room for disagreement on my end, especially with how you phrased your B tier

edit: And man, having the guts to flat out say that you don't know about most characters? You win this topic

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Fox? In A tier, in the running behind Sheik and Diddy? That's surprising. I thought for sure a lot of people thought Fox was solidly running somewhere in the middle, matchups and all.

(Pikachu up there is a whole 'nother can of worms, but I guess it's not too much of a stretch.)

Could you expand on Fox further, @ DanGR ? And do you think he'll hold up?

Smooth Criminal

 

[NairWizard]

I can see why DanGR might put Fox in A tier. It makes a lot of sense to me now, and it makes me think that I've been underrating Fox.

Reflector, lasers, speed/mobility, high jumps (for platform stages like Battlefield) and KO power (even though landing the killing blow can be tough sometimes)--he basically has an all-purpose toolkit. He can go in or stay out, and no matter what distance he's fighting you at he's racking up quick damage. The ability to build damage from both far away and up close shouldn't be underestimated; you can go in against some characters and stay out against others, or even do both against the same character depending on what your opponent is doing in response.

The only characters who really don't have to approach Fox in some way are Mii Gunner and Ness because of absorption. Gunner is probably Fox's worst matchup now that I think about it (he can absorb the projectiles that he fires at Fox after Fox reflects them--that's pretty OP). Other than that, I can't think of a character who isn't annoyed by Fox in some capacity--Fox running away or Fox running toward are equally scary for different characters.

Varying your gameplan to deal with different characters is the best way to win a national, and Fox can do that.

Is that about what you were thinking?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I've been hesitant until recently to form a tier list of my own. Not only has 1 patch changed the entire meta's landscape, we've yet to truly experience the breadth custom moveset legalization will bring to the game as well. Despite my ignorance of some of the characters in the game, which I'll list below, and both me and my local community's support for custom moveset legalization, I've formed my own preliminary tier list for patch 1.0.4 with customs banned. I've been adjusting a notepad document on my desktop for a while now, documenting changes in my opinion since 1.0.4's release.

Characters I'm not comfortable placing yet include Mario, Luigi, Wario, Peach, Bowser, Ike, DHD, Villager, Lucario, Gunner, and Falco. I suppose I could pretend to have a refined opinion on all the characters' competitive value less than a month into the game, and have a complete list... but I'd rather have a more accurate list that reflects how I currently view the meta.
----------------------------------------------
-A Tier-

-B Tier-

(Likely more)

-C&D Tier-
The rest of the cast.
----------------------------------------------

A Tier: I think these 4 are a small step above the rest of the cast, though Ness and Sonic follow close behind. They don't seem to particularly struggle with any very relevant matchups in A and B tier besides Diddy because their strengths more than make up for or cover their few weaknesses. It's difficult deciding on a cut-off point between A and B tier. Tiers represent rifts or distinct ideological differences between one set of characters and the next. The distinction I made between A and B tier is that I think you could easily go without a secondary with these 4 in patch 1.0.4 and win a national tournament, unlike those in B tier who have weaknesses that make for either somewhat of a volatile character or one with clear weaknesses that can be exploited in a variety of ways.

B Tier: I'm judging characters on whether or not they make it into this tier based on how likely I think they are to win large local or regional tournaments by themselves. Although characters with more polarizing matchup spreads like Villager, Megaman, and Rosalina are very unlikely to win large tournaments alone, I've accounted for the attribute of having higher than average matchups against some A or high-B tier characters, making them a fantastic counterpick option. For example, right now I think Rosalina very handily beats slow characters and/or characters with more linear approach options against Rosalina like Ness, Captain Falcon, and Robin, but struggles against speedy punish and/or trap characters with solid mixups like Fox, Sonic, and Sheik, or really anyone that can dispose of Luma quickly. Also, this tier is bigger than I've shown and I'll keep adding characters to it as I better understand the potential in some of the underused characters. This game is way more balanced than the other smash games, and it's necessary that the tier sizes reflect that. I'm very confident in my top 7- less so in the order past that.

C Tier & D Tier: Realistically, I think there's only 3, maybe 4 tiers. It's pretty crazy to theorize more than 4, imo, given how I separated each tier. I think it'd be really surprising, but not unheard of for any of the characters in my C&D Tiers to win anything past a large local, assuming the player isn't far and away more skilled than everyone else.

I'm ready to answer any questions about my list.

once again if DK's and Ganon's are placing well in tournaments, People who reasonably say this game aint the most balanced smash are crazy.
This guy gets it. And this is why the teir committee is litterally going to be pulling put there hairs trying to make a teir list.

Realistically speaking so far. This is impressive. And with patch support in the future getting rid of some jank moves. we all good.

The come up tourny was absolutly amazing and hype considering it had litterally none of this guys A tier in the top three.
This speaks wonders for apex as well.

 

[Noa.]

I've been hesitant until recently to form a tier list of my own. Not only has 1 patch changed the entire meta's landscape, we've yet to truly experience the breadth custom moveset legalization will bring to the game as well. Despite my ignorance of some of the characters in the game, which I'll list below, and both me and my local community's support for custom moveset legalization, I've formed my own preliminary tier list for patch 1.0.4 with customs banned. I've been adjusting a notepad document on my desktop for a while now, documenting changes in my opinion since 1.0.4's release.

Characters I'm not comfortable placing yet include Mario, Luigi, Wario, Peach, Bowser, Ike, DHD, Villager, Lucario, Gunner, and Falco. I suppose I could pretend to have a refined opinion on all the characters' competitive value less than a month into the game, and have a complete list... but I'd rather have a more accurate list that reflects how I currently view the meta.
----------------------------------------------
-A Tier-

-B Tier-

(Likely more)

-C&D Tier-
The rest of the cast.
----------------------------------------------

A Tier: I think these 4 are a small step above the rest of the cast, though Ness and Sonic follow close behind. They don't seem to particularly struggle with any very relevant matchups in A and B tier besides Diddy because their strengths more than make up for or cover their few weaknesses. It's difficult deciding on a cut-off point between A and B tier. Tiers represent rifts or distinct ideological differences between one set of characters and the next. The distinction I made between A and B tier is that I think you could easily go without a secondary with these 4 in patch 1.0.4 and win a national tournament, unlike those in B tier who have weaknesses that make for either somewhat of a volatile character or one with clear weaknesses that can be exploited in a variety of ways.

B Tier: I'm judging characters on whether or not they make it into this tier based on how likely I think they are to win large local or regional tournaments by themselves. Although characters with more polarizing matchup spreads like Villager, Megaman, and Rosalina are very unlikely to win large tournaments alone, I've accounted for the attribute of having higher than average matchups against some A or high-B tier characters, making them a fantastic counterpick option. For example, right now I think Rosalina very handily beats slow characters and/or characters with more linear approach options against Rosalina like Ness, Captain Falcon, and Robin, but struggles against speedy punish and/or trap characters with solid mixups like Fox, Sonic, and Sheik, or really anyone that can dispose of Luma quickly. Also, this tier is bigger than I've shown and I'll keep adding characters to it as I better understand the potential in some of the underused characters. This game is way more balanced than the other smash games, and it's necessary that the tier sizes reflect that. I'm very confident in my top 7- less so in the order past that.

C Tier & D Tier: Realistically, I think there's only 3, maybe 4 tiers. It's pretty crazy to theorize more than 4, imo, given how I separated each tier. I think it'd be really surprising, but not unheard of for any of the characters in my C&D Tiers to win anything past a large local, assuming the player isn't far and away more skilled than everyone else.

I'm ready to answer any questions about my list.

You have a very nice list Dan. One character that seems to be missing is ZSS. Do you just not think she's up to snuff with the rest of the characters you have listed or is she one of the characters that you haven't formed a solid opinion on yet?

 

[DanGR]

@ Noa. I meant to place ZSS in the list of characters I don't have a solid grasp on yet. I'm glad you caught that. I think she's somewhere in B tier, but I'm not sure where.

Fox... I could go through a long list of positive traits and matchups Fox has but I'd rather highlight a few changes from Brawl to Sm4sh that he greatly benefited from.

• Side-b doesn't put you into special fall anymore, making his recovery options much better.
• The new shield mechanics make uptilt OoS one of the best, if not the best OoS option at low percents. This move true combos into several moves, setting up easy frame traps and optional kill setups.
• No more impossible matchups against ICs (gone), Pikachu (chaingrab gone), Sheik (ftilt->kill gone).
• The added lag on airdodging into the ground make Fox' trap game really scary. He's got plenty of reliable setups in uptilt, dash attack, throws, n-air.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I feel like people are sleeping hard on Wii Fit Trainer.

With Deep Breathing active and Nair > Upsmash, she can kill people at relatively low percentages.

I think half the cast is being slept on.

Everyone's got cool technology and has merit.

It's just not being explored because we only want to focus on those we think are the best.

 

[Twizman]

Anybody seen Choco play ZSS on the SHI Gaming channel? I've seen him beat Rain's Diddy. Very high level play for this early in the game's life. It's scary how ZSS can get kills so early with her spike!

 

[TTTTTsd]

@ Noa. I meant to place ZSS in the list of characters I don't have a solid grasp on yet. I'm glad you caught that. I think she's somewhere in B tier, but I'm not sure where.

Fox... I could go through a long list of positive traits and matchups Fox has but I'd rather highlight a few changes from Brawl to Sm4sh that he greatly benefited from.

• Side-b doesn't put you into special fall anymore, making his recovery options much better.
• The new shield mechanics make uptilt OoS one of the best, if not the best OoS option at low percents. This move true combos into several moves, setting up easy frame traps and optional kill setups.
• No more impossible matchups against ICs (gone), Pikachu (chaingrab gone), Sheik (ftilt->kill gone).
• The added lag on airdodging into the ground make Fox' trap game really scary. He's got plenty of reliable setups in uptilt, dash attack, throws, n-air.

A lot of Fox's strengths are magnified with this engine, yeah. The fact that a lot of defensive actions in the air require more commitment (mainly the airdodge) really benefits him, the added hitstun lets him trap you on the ground even easier, and the increased runspeed overall makes him harder to react to. He was already good in Brawl but now he's even better, mainly the system is to thank.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Wonder if kirby's been brought up yet. anyway what caught my eye was the ZSS talk

Imo ZSS' worst MU has to be kirby or jiggly. Despite ZSS running away on platforms these characters can shut down anything she tries to start. That crouch, that nair. and when there's a missed grab which you know ZSS' are gonna do eventually, free punish.

Also Kirby loves FF'ers, that up-tilt to free -% and some in the "A" tier are FF'er's, heh.

 

[The Twinkie]

Let me reword that. How is she on a competitive level? Does she fair well against most opponents? Does she have any polarizing match ups?

Sorry I'm late. They usually approuch with nair since it has high priority and then she uses a lot of fair. If you use jigglypuff then save bair and keep it fresh since its crazy strong now. Uair is good for juggles and the hitbox is disjointed a little. On the ground her jab is a good option to use since it's fast. Use dash attacks for punishes oos. Ftilt is also a fast option and works for a jab lock. On her smashs, her bair is stronger than fsmash. Usmash is the best one imo. Pound is good for reading rolls, shield pressure, and reading airdodges. Since it has a lingering hitbox, it'll still hit after they roll or airdodge. Sing isn't useless anymore. The sleep time is good enough to get in a rest or another attack. You can use this to read a roll and do those ledge games U could still do in brawl. For punishes, if you can crouch under it, crouch then jump into rest. It'll kill around 50%. Rest is also for tech chases.

She does good against MUs like ZSS, WFT, Falco.
Against characters with long range and can zone her out like marth, shulk, ike. It's hard for her to get in. Take advantage that then can be gimped and also take advantage that U have a better horizontal air game than them
I'd say that she has good MUs against most the cast and she's a solid high tier character

 

[Luco]

• The added lag on airdodging into the ground make Fox' trap game really scary. He's got plenty of reliable setups in uptilt, dash attack, throws, n-air.

Oho, I must say i'm somewhat surprised. Quite a few characters that i know can trade quite reliably with Fox's utilt after 1 or 2 of them, so I must say I wasn't aware it was quite so godly. I'll accept it though, I don't know enough about some chars to know whether it's guaranteed on them so i'd take your word for it.

I really like your list. Not quite sure how I feel about Fox overall but tbh I wouldn't move him much even if I had the chance and think it's certainly valid to place him at 4th. I really like your list. ^_^

 

[TTTTTsd]

This post is the most reasonable tier list post I have ever seen (and just as I was about to give up on this topic due to all the tier lists being posted). Kudos.

(And no, that's not just because Pikachu is top 4, though I did notice that and approve) Ness, Megaman, Shulk, Robin, Pit and Dark Pit -- agreed on pretty much everything, found myself nodding through all your reasoning on the structure too. I'm not sure how I feel about Fox in Top Tier, but I can't deny that he has the tools to win a national (he doesn't get wrecked in any matchup, that much is true, maybe slight losses to Sheik/Pikachu/Diddy, edit: and Mii Gunner).

Very nice, though, overall. +1, very little room for disagreement on my end, especially with how you phrased your B tier

edit: And man, having the guts to flat out say that you don't know about most characters? You win this topic

I think my favorite part about the list is how it mentions "characters who can win by themselves" and makes that into a tier. IMO most chars in this game have enough counterpicks to warrant you needing to have a secondary that can help with MUs, but of course there are exceptions and thus, that list exists.

 

[Morbi]

Sorry I'm late. They usually approuch with nair since it has high priority and then she uses a lot of fair. If you use jigglypuff then save bair and keep it fresh since its crazy strong now. Uair is good for juggles and the hitbox is disjointed a little. On the ground her jab is a good option to use since it's fast. Use dash attacks for punishes oos. Ftilt is also a fast option and works for a jab lock. On her smashs, her bair is stronger than fsmash. Usmash is the best one imo. Pound is good for reading rolls, shield pressure, and reading airdodges. Since it has a lingering hitbox, it'll still hit after they roll or airdodge. Sing isn't useless anymore. The sleep time is good enough to get in a rest or another attack. You can use this to read a roll and do those ledge games U could still do in brawl. For punishes, if you can crouch under it, crouch then jump into rest. It'll kill around 50%. Rest is also for tech chases.

She does good against MUs like ZSS, WFT, Falco.
Against characters with long range and can zone her out like marth, shulk, ike. It's hard for her to get in. Take advantage that then can be gimped and also take advantage that U have a better horizontal air game than them
I'd say that she has good MUs against most the cast and she's a solid high tier character

I agree with everything you stated, that just about summarizes her options; however, I wanted to ask your thoughts on u-tilt. I do not have the frame data or anything, but in my online sessions I found it to be quite versatile. I use it after reading a roll or when I am being shield pressured. It would even kill at higher percents and lead to juggles and whatnot. Is it a decent tool or should I just surmise its effectiveness to "For Glory" net-code?

 

[The Twinkie]

I agree with everything you stated, that just about summarizes her options; however, I wanted to ask your thoughts on u-tilt. I do not have the frame data or anything, but in my online sessions I found it to be quite versatile. I use it after reading a roll or when I am being shield pressured. It would even kill at higher percents and lead to juggles and whatnot. Is it a decent tool or should I just surmise its effectiveness to "For Glory" net-code?

Yes that's great tool. It can juggle kill at higher percents and it can read dodges and rolls. It's a great tool with low ending lag.