Character Competitive Impressions

[Yonder]

Kirby's grab is actually surprisingly good. Comes out frame 6 and has deceptive range. His pivot grab range is comparable to Palutena's.

WFT's grab is godawful though, yes.

Huh. I thought the range was terrible on it sans the dash grab. My bad. I know his moves from a grab are good, unlike WFT.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Lol what moves from a grab. Kirby can barely follow up on anything. A B-throw to B-air and a F-throw to F-air are being mad generous. Least up-throw has good damage damage.

 

[Karaoke Man]

Lol what moves from a grab. Kirby can barely follow up on anything. A B-throw to B-air and a F-throw to F-air are being mad generous. Least up-throw has good damage damage.

So, I hear Kirby has a Uair

 

[ChronoPenguin]

So, I hear Kirby has a Uair

I hear everyone has a U-air.
Just because you have a U-air doesn't mean you have good grab follow ups. Especially given that Kirbys U-air loses to a lot of ****.

 

[thehard]

WFT is highly technical but I bet someone will make her work down the line. Once people learn to turn her funky hitboxes AGAINST their opponents.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Kirby has no follow-ups on his throws outside of F-Throw/B-Throw to most Copy Ability projectiles, B-Throw to B-Air on some characters at incredibly low percents, and D-Throw to Upper Cutter at low percents (which will get you punished). F-Throw to F-Air can easily be punished if the opponent DI's downwards and shields.

The good thing about Kirby's grab is that he can rack up on pummel damage + U-Throw, but that's about it.

Also, I find it dumb that only earlier today did I learn that both Kirby's B-Air and U-Air auto cancel out of a Short Hop, even if you fast fall a bit after descending.

 

[Ffamran]

Can Kirby D-throw/F-throw and follow-up with a Dash Attack or is that a Meta Knight thing?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Can Kirby D-throw/F-throw and follow-up with a Dash Attack or is that a Meta Knight thing?

No. Combining D-Throw's endlag with Break Spin's start-up, it'd be impossible to follow up unless the opponent sits and does nothing. F-Throw leaves Kirby in the air, so by the time you're grounded again, hitstun is already gone.

Also, I think it should be noted that by using some Copy Ability projectiles, such as Pac-Man's Key, Samus's Charge Shot, or Lucario's Aura Sphere, Kirby has guaranteed killing combos out of F-Throw. While the weaker projectiles (ie: Sun Salutation) will only kill near the ledge, stronger ones will kill even from the middle of the stage. Most of them will kill at the ledge at 55~65% even with DI, which is nice.

 

[Ffamran]

No. Combining D-Throw's endlag with Break Spin's start-up, it'd be impossible to follow up unless the opponent sits and does nothing. F-Throw leaves Kirby in the air, so by the time you're grounded again, hitstun is already gone.

Also, I think it should be noted that by using some Copy Ability projectiles, such as Pac-Man's Key, Samus's Charge Shot, or Lucario's Aura Sphere, Kirby has guaranteed killing combos out of F-Throw. While the weaker projectiles (ie: Sun Salutation) will only kill near the ledge, stronger ones will kill even from the middle of the stage. Most of them will kill at the ledge at 55~65% even with DI, which is nice.

Wow, that sucks... Kirby sort of seems like a Ganondorf/Exdeath character who does damage, but has few follow-ups and approaches from how you're describing him. The issue is that Kirby lacks that power or the ability to counter everything which is Exdeath's schtick in Dissidia.

Still, Kirby can hold his ownand SSB4 being more balanced doesn't make him or anyone Brawl Ganondorf bad.

 

[Trifroze]

Most people who want to place well and are choosing their main from the tierlist just go for (what is believed to be) the best character and not so often the ones below. Sometimes people go for easy to use ones or 2nd best characters when it's not 100% certain who even is the best.

Yeah, there are basically three different types of people when choosing mains competitively, most common understandably being top tiers, although this depends on the viability difference between top and high tiers. Then there's the second biggest (or sometimes biggest) group who chooses the most interesting character to them from around mid-high to high, and then there's the die hard minority of players who main their favorite character no matter how good or bad they are. Undeniably there will always be players who enjoy using top tiers and may have used that character anyway.

I would obviously main Falcon or Ganondorf even if they were top, while I would second them if they were unviable like I did in Brawl, but I find the most enjoyment in using a high tier character because you're still realistically competent on tournaments of all scales, but have that sense of relation and identity making you want to do and get that much better while also repping your character.

 

[Karaoke Man]

I hear everyone has a U-air.
Just because you have a U-air doesn't mean you have good grab follow ups. Especially given that Kirbys U-air loses to a lot of ****.

That may be true, but when you only judge from what a move does, you eliminate the possibilites of application. For instance, you can't leave out:

• Who is going to benefit from the move?
• What does the move do? (This is what you were going by alone)
• Where should the move be placed?
• When is the best time to use the move?
• Why should the move be applied in this scenario?
• How should one go about utilizing the move?

So I mean, it doesn't matter if Uair loses to another move in terms of frame data. Making a move work doesn't always mean to challenge it with another; It means to find alternative ways to gain a new application for the move and to implement through means of experimentation with the conceptualization method I mentioned above.

Kirby's Uair may not be able to net grab follow ups, but when it connects against the opponent, it does combo into Utilt at lower percents and combos into itself when airbourne. It's all about putting and keeping yourself in favorable situations/scenarios where doing such things are feasible.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Well, I thought this was interesting. Using Kirby's customs, specifically Hammer Bash (which is reminiscent of Brawl's Hammer), Kirby can gain a TREMENDOUS boost in jump height. For those who don't know, Kirby's Hammer Bash boosts any momentum upwards or downwards when used in the air. This was also in Brawl, although I believe it was to a lesser extent than Hammer Bash. I can't remember due to not playing Brawl in quite some time (around a year?).

Anyways, let's get on with it. Not posting the .gifs directly to prevent any lag that could pop up for some users.

Here is Kirby's default jump height, with the aid of Upper Cutter (goes significantly higher than Final Cutter). http://i.imgur.com/96yZol8.gifv

Now, here is Kirby's jump height with the aid of Hammer Bash and Upper Cutter (although I believe I failed the last Hammer Bash, which carries momentum downwards). http://i.imgur.com/Grmnmwm.gifv

As you can see, with all of Kirby's jumps, he barely reaches the top platform - add in Upper Cutter, and he makes it to the top boundaries for a split second. Then, look at the increase with Hammer Bash. Just TWO of Kirby's Hammer Bash jumps (one grounded and one mid-air) equal the same height as all of his jumps regularly. Add in the fact that using Hammer Bash with the rest of his jumps brings him higher than Upper Cutter did.

I wanted to look into this even more, so I tested it against the presumed highest jumper (I'm not sure who it is not with the newcomers), Falco. Here's Falco's default jump height, http://i.imgur.com/OqNd0EC.gif, and here's two of Kirby's jumps (equaling the regular amount of character jumps) assisted with Hammer Bash, http://i.imgur.com/gISc629.gif. As seen, Kirby is barely short of the highest jump height in the game.

Now, to test this even FURTHER, I decided to do a little "recovery ranking".

Using the bottom platform seen in this picture (right side of the rock w/ spring), I tested some of the best recoveries in the game to see who could go from that bottom platform to the yellow bridge. If timed correctly, Kirby just barely makes it on top of the bridge. Along with Hammer Bash Kirby, the only other character in the game who was capable of getting from that platform to the bridge is, obviously, Villager. Characters I thought could make it up, such as Pit/Pittoo and Olimar (without Pikmin) surprisingly could NOT make it. As another quick test, I used the same method with Jump Monado Kirby. Instead of using the platform, I fell down to the blast zone (so no grounded jump), and managed to make it all the way to the top and above the blast zone.

Now, of course, this is using Custom Moves. With different customs, almost every character has a custom recovery that goes higher than the default. Now, the real question is should that character be using that custom in the first place? Going from the "Standard Custom Project", most characters opt to use other custom specials. Whereas, for Kirby, there's absolutely no reason not to use Upper Cutter, and little reason not to use Hammer Bash. Upper Cutter goes higher than Final Cutter, latches on to the ledge, is harder to intercept due to it's speed, can kill off the top similar to Meta Knight's up special at relatively low percents (around 80 to 100% depending on the character), easily stage spikes opponents who try to edgeguard Kirby, can be used to finish off combos/strings in the air, and is a relatively safe OoS option at higher percents.

Hammer Bash, overall, will see more use than the other variants mainly due to the fact that it isn't crap. Hammer Flip can only be used as a bait and punish option, which will most likely not work in competitive play, leaving Kirby wide open for a smash attack. Giant Hammer is a bit more useful, though. Giant Hammer has Super Armor while charging the move, has an incredibly large, disjointed hitbox, comes out relatively fast (fully charged) to intercept grabs, and kills basically every character in the game at 5~10% with full charge. Along with that, it's unblockable, so counters and shields won't work against it. Kirby can instantly kill Marth and Lucina from a shield break when they're only at 8% (Jumping Inhale) from the middle of Battlefield, which gives it a bit more use.

As apparent, the boosted Hammer Flip jumps barely give Kirby any horizontal momentum, and more so focus on vertically boosting his recovery. The solution to this is simple. Jumping Inhale, which is similar to Upper Cutter in having no reason to not replace default Inhale, carries Kirby from every vertical blast zone right next to the ledge, to safely Upper Cutter back onto the ledge, or quickly jump towards it with any remaining jumps.

Using all these recovery options, Kirby seemingly has a bunch of mix-ups for recovering. Kirby can essentially double the height of any jump with Hammer Bash, recover from any blast zone with Jumping Inhale, can easily fly from the bottom of the stage to a ledge with Upper Cutter (and stage spike anybody willing to challenge Kirby), along with multiple jumps to go along with it. He can also drop down quickly to recover low using Stone, giving opponents less time to set up for edgeguarding. The only thing stopping Kirby from having one of the best recoveries in the game is his vulnerability and atrocious air speed. However, having so much options for recovering, along with his already good recovery, means that gimping or edgeguarding Kirby will be significantly harder than others. From personal experience, the only time I have ever failed to recover with Kirby is from @Spirst's cans from Duck Hunt, along with being stage spiked (although this is rare when using Upper Cutter).

Please excuse my lack of, er, sentence structure. It's quite a mess, but hopefully people will understand what this post is about. Also, this was typed up fairly late, so please bring up anything that doesn't sound right in general!

 

[Nobie]

I would hope that Robin can wall out Ganondorf, being like the only character who actually runs more slowly. If Robin's tools couldn't keep Ganondorf out sufficiently, that would be a bad, bad, bad matchup.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Falco is indeed the highest jumper, or at least that is what the in game tip says. I think ZSS is 2 and Greninja 3, but I know Falco is 1

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I've been reading the past couple of pages and a couple of things strike me as odd. First being yoshi having close to no bad MU'S how have people come to this conclusion? Yoshi isn't used much and I'm not really sure how anyone has a grasp on all his MU's already.

The second is shulk in the top 10 I don't see it. I'd question shulks MU's vs Diddy Shiek pikachu ness Rosalina Yoshi ZSS sonic and fox. Does he have a winning MU vs any of these characters?

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Was going through the tips today.

The one for Rose's Gravitational Pull flat out tells you to use it against Ness' Up B.

How sad.

 

[Firefoxx]

Was going through the tips today.

The one for Rose's Gravitational Pull flat out tells you to use it against Ness' Up B.

How sad.

Quite a few tips specifically mention using a move to stop Ness' recovery. It's kind of weird that he was singled out so much.

edit: I'm pretty sure one of Ness' Psi Magnet tips says to use it on another Ness...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Was going through the tips today.

The one for Rose's Gravitational Pull flat out tells you to use it against Ness' Up B.

How sad.

Yep. Got a pastebin full of them here. Ness seems easy to gimp by design.

Other fun tips:

• Dr. Mario's pills are physical projectiles this time around. (AFAIK they were energy based in Melee.)
• Jigglypuff can't do anything until she lands after hitting Rollout, so don't use it when recovering.
• Lucario's Aura maxes out at 2.5x power at 190%, but apparently there's a way to boost that even more. (Mega Lucario?)
• Olimar's Pikmin seem to apply basic multipliers to attacks instead of having a bunch of unique values.
• Peach has a 1/250 chance of pulling a Bob-omb and a 1/166 chance of pulling Mr. Saturn.
• Robin can reduce the time it takes to regenerate broken items by scoring KOs.
• Rosalina can save herself in a pinch by making Luma attack while she's stunned or sleeping.
• Samus' Jab1 doesn't properly combo into Jab2, so it suggests just using the first hit and running away.
• Reflectors tend to fail if the projectile does 50% or more damage.
• Crouch cancelling, pivot attacks, DI/SDI (unclear which), short hops, b-reverse, moving the shield around, pivot grabs, and jumping OOS then canceling jumpsquat with utilt are all mentioned.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Yep. Got a pastebin full of them here. Ness seems easy to gimp by design.

Weird

Wario Bike: Wario's motorcycle can break into parts. Throw them at others, or eat them to fill Wario's...gas tank.

That's false. You can't throw the broken parts. (I also have a PAL copy which says you CAN'T throw them last I checked. :x)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Weird

That's false. You can't throw the broken parts. (I also have a PAL copy which says you CAN'T throw them last I checked. :x)

I just wrote down the interesting ones I saw. Possibly a typo in the NA version?

 

[Ffamran]

Yep. Got a pastebin full of them here. Ness seems easy to gimp by design.

Other fun tips:

• Samus' Jab1 doesn't properly combo into Jab2, so it suggests just using the first hit and running away.

Why? Just why? Is Samus the only character with a badly broken jab?

 

[Brocolli123]

Any early tier list discussion is BANNED

But, it's going to happen in some form or another. So here it is, please be careful and respectful.

Keep relative discussions on character strengths, weaknesses, abilities and viability to here.
You should avoid "definitely top tier" or "definitely low tier", or "second best character in the game" etc etc.
However, I'm sure anyone who has sat down to play the game or is now watching latest footage while also having a Melee or Brawl background will have an inkling or impression about differences. People know how match ups go for many characters in previous games, and considering the new tools or other changes that have occurred one could have an idea on how things will be different.

Furthermore discoveries that have heavily affected the viability of characters in the past, such as having a chain grab (Falco, Dedede) or being chain grabbed (Ness, Fox, Wario) may be brought up and discerned ("Snake may have many issues because if you grab his cypher while he recovers he doesn't get it back", "Dedede seems to be able to down throw chain grab a large portion of the cast at any percent").

For those who are interested in previous game tier lists or match up information to bolster their knowledge, please refer to here:
Latest Brawl Tier List: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-tier-list-v8.335959/
Latest Brawl Match Up Chart: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-matchup-chart-v3-0.338390/
Latest Melee Tier List: http://smashboards.com/threads/2013-community-tier-list.336113

I like Olimar but does anyone here have a list of his competitive strengths and weaknesses because I don't know what he is capable of

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Funnily enough, Diddy's is broken, but I don't think it is by design...

 

[ChronoPenguin]

That may be true, but when you only judge from what a move does, you eliminate the possibilites of application. For instance, you can't leave out:

• Who is going to benefit from the move?
• What does the move do? (This is what you were going by alone)
• Where should the move be placed?
• When is the best time to use the move?
• Why should the move be applied in this scenario?
• How should one go about utilizing the move?

So I mean, it doesn't matter if Uair loses to another move in terms of frame data. Making a move work doesn't always mean to challenge it with another; It means to find alternative ways to gain a new application for the move and to implement through means of experimentation with the conceptualization method I mentioned above.

Kirby's Uair may not be able to net grab follow ups, but when it connects against the opponent, it does combo into Utilt at lower percents and combos into itself when airbourne. It's all about putting and keeping yourself in favorable situations/scenarios where doing such things are feasible.

did you write this post just to hear yourself?
Grab follow ups: Kirby
Kirby doesn't have them past 10% and the ones he have are on a very small portion of the cast, U-air is not even part of that.

If you want o *just* talk an aerial game, we could but its not in the same lane of discussion.
Kirbys U-air losing isnt about frame data. Its about his hurtbox and him loosing (aka he gets hit and they dont even if they attacked LATER) because kirby has poor range, limited disjoints and the damage of the move is not particularly high so most D-airs or even N-airs worth their salt, break it and Kirby loses the exchange. Why is this relevant? In the context of grab follow ups, Kirby never has them in hitstun enough to get in position without them being able to Nair or down air.
He has to make a conscious read not simply "watch out for airdodges" but not to take unecessary damage he certainly cannot afford as one of the lightest characters in the game. He has an U-air but it's next to irrelevant in the context of a grab follow-up. Your opposition gets a huge amount of reaction time just due to the KB of your throws and how long you are disabled for.

Falcon has U-air follow ups out of his throws, so does Diddy, even Sheik, Fox, pit or hell even Ganon

You can save your grade school 5 W's for a relevant discussion.


@ Aunt Jemima , yes Hammer bash increases momentum. its why we've been advocating for it in the Kirby Custom project thread. Its also why I've said I dont understand why anyone would ever pick Hammer flip except against Marth/Lucina. Besides the recovery boost which mixed with Jumping inhale lets Kirby have versatile recovery, it is also a damn more reliable punish.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yeah, Kirby can't reliably follow-up out of grabs in this game. He's forced to work his way around his opponent all the time, it seems like.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Empty Number]

I'm wondering what people here think of Donkey Kong? DK Will took 2nd in a tournament not too long ago, using pretty much only DK (I think he used Shiek for one match). He had some pretty good sets against Sonics, Diddys and the like, that makes me think that DK has the right tools to deal with traditionally fast characters.

Here's his set against Mew2King:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5tTSRg2DOQ&list=TLIpwVLqD4G08

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Well, I thought this was interesting. Using Kirby's customs, specifically Hammer Bash (which is reminiscent of Brawl's Hammer), Kirby can gain a TREMENDOUS boost in jump height. For those who don't know, Kirby's Hammer Bash boosts any momentum upwards or downwards when used in the air. This was also in Brawl, although I believe it was to a lesser extent than Hammer Bash. I can't remember due to not playing Brawl in quite some time (around a year?).

Anyways, let's get on with it. Not posting the .gifs directly to prevent any lag that could pop up for some users.

Here is Kirby's default jump height, with the aid of Upper Cutter (goes significantly higher than Final Cutter). http://i.imgur.com/96yZol8.gifv

Now, here is Kirby's jump height with the aid of Hammer Bash and Upper Cutter (although I believe I failed the last Hammer Bash, which carries momentum downwards). http://i.imgur.com/Grmnmwm.gifv

As you can see, with all of Kirby's jumps, he barely reaches the top platform - add in Upper Cutter, and he makes it to the top boundaries for a split second. Then, look at the increase with Hammer Bash. Just TWO of Kirby's Hammer Bash jumps (one grounded and one mid-air) equal the same height as all of his jumps regularly. Add in the fact that using Hammer Bash with the rest of his jumps brings him higher than Upper Cutter did.

I wanted to look into this even more, so I tested it against the presumed highest jumper (I'm not sure who it is not with the newcomers), Falco. Here's Falco's default jump height, http://i.imgur.com/OqNd0EC.gif, and here's two of Kirby's jumps (equaling the regular amount of character jumps) assisted with Hammer Bash, http://i.imgur.com/gISc629.gif. As seen, Kirby is barely short of the highest jump height in the game.

Now, to test this even FURTHER, I decided to do a little "recovery ranking".

Using the bottom platform seen in this picture (right side of the rock w/ spring), I tested some of the best recoveries in the game to see who could go from that bottom platform to the yellow bridge. If timed correctly, Kirby just barely makes it on top of the bridge. Along with Hammer Bash Kirby, the only other character in the game who was capable of getting from that platform to the bridge is, obviously, Villager. Characters I thought could make it up, such as Pit/Pittoo and Olimar (without Pikmin) surprisingly could NOT make it. As another quick test, I used the same method with Jump Monado Kirby. Instead of using the platform, I fell down to the blast zone (so no grounded jump), and managed to make it all the way to the top and above the blast zone.

Now, of course, this is using Custom Moves. With different customs, almost every character has a custom recovery that goes higher than the default. Now, the real question is should that character be using that custom in the first place? Going from the "Standard Custom Project", most characters opt to use other custom specials. Whereas, for Kirby, there's absolutely no reason not to use Upper Cutter, and little reason not to use Hammer Bash. Upper Cutter goes higher than Final Cutter, latches on to the ledge, is harder to intercept due to it's speed, can kill off the top similar to Meta Knight's up special at relatively low percents (around 80 to 100% depending on the character), easily stage spikes opponents who try to edgeguard Kirby, can be used to finish off combos/strings in the air, and is a relatively safe OoS option at higher percents.

Hammer Bash, overall, will see more use than the other variants mainly due to the fact that it isn't crap. Hammer Flip can only be used as a bait and punish option, which will most likely not work in competitive play, leaving Kirby wide open for a smash attack. Giant Hammer is a bit more useful, though. Giant Hammer has Super Armor while charging the move, has an incredibly large, disjointed hitbox, comes out relatively fast (fully charged) to intercept grabs, and kills basically every character in the game at 5~10% with full charge. Along with that, it's unblockable, so counters and shields won't work against it. Kirby can instantly kill Marth and Lucina from a shield break when they're only at 8% (Jumping Inhale) from the middle of Battlefield, which gives it a bit more use.

As apparent, the boosted Hammer Flip jumps barely give Kirby any horizontal momentum, and more so focus on vertically boosting his recovery. The solution to this is simple. Jumping Inhale, which is similar to Upper Cutter in having no reason to not replace default Inhale, carries Kirby from every vertical blast zone right next to the ledge, to safely Upper Cutter back onto the ledge, or quickly jump towards it with any remaining jumps.

Using all these recovery options, Kirby seemingly has a bunch of mix-ups for recovering. Kirby can essentially double the height of any jump with Hammer Bash, recover from any blast zone with Jumping Inhale, can easily fly from the bottom of the stage to a ledge with Upper Cutter (and stage spike anybody willing to challenge Kirby), along with multiple jumps to go along with it. He can also drop down quickly to recover low using Stone, giving opponents less time to set up for edgeguarding. The only thing stopping Kirby from having one of the best recoveries in the game is his vulnerability and atrocious air speed. However, having so much options for recovering, along with his already good recovery, means that gimping or edgeguarding Kirby will be significantly harder than others. From personal experience, the only time I have ever failed to recover with Kirby is from @Spirst's cans from Duck Hunt, along with being stage spiked (although this is rare when using Upper Cutter).

Please excuse my lack of, er, sentence structure. It's quite a mess, but hopefully people will understand what this post is about. Also, this was typed up fairly late, so please bring up anything that doesn't sound right in general!

fantastic post, my dude. Made me wanna play Kirby, haha

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'm wondering what people here think of Donkey Kong? DK Will took 2nd in a tournament not too long ago, using pretty much only DK (I think he used Shiek for one match). He had some pretty good sets against Sonics, Diddys and the like, that makes me think that DK has the right tools to deal with traditionally fast characters.

Here's his set against Mew2King:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5tTSRg2DOQ&list=TLIpwVLqD4G08

DK is mid tier. He's got good mobility for a heavyweight and excellent shield pressure. He still has classic heavy weaknesses to deal with, but the Smash 4 engine is pretty favorable for him. He does have the tools to compete with anyone, but doesn't have the same inherent advantages over the rest of the cast as someone like Diddy or Sheik, and has to work a bit harder to win.

 

[Antonykun]

Yep. Got a pastebin full of them here. Ness seems easy to gimp by design.

Other fun tips:

• Dr. Mario's pills are physical projectiles this time around. (AFAIK they were energy based in Melee.)
• Jigglypuff can't do anything until she lands after hitting Rollout, so don't use it when recovering.
• Lucario's Aura maxes out at 2.5x power at 190%, but apparently there's a way to boost that even more. (Mega Lucario?)
• Olimar's Pikmin seem to apply basic multipliers to attacks instead of having a bunch of unique values.
• Peach has a 1/250 chance of pulling a Bob-omb and a 1/166 chance of pulling Mr. Saturn.
• Robin can reduce the time it takes to regenerate broken items by scoring KOs.
• Rosalina can save herself in a pinch by making Luma attack while she's stunned or sleeping.
• Samus' Jab1 doesn't properly combo into Jab2, so it suggests just using the first hit and running away.
• Reflectors tend to fail if the projectile does 50% or more damage.
• Crouch cancelling, pivot attacks, DI/SDI (unclear which), short hops, b-reverse, moving the shield around, pivot grabs, and jumping OOS then canceling jumpsquat with utilt are all mentioned.

(Sonic)
Down Air Attack: If you jump, Spring Jump, and then use this attack in quick succession, it will end right before you land, which means no landing delay!

So this annoying fake-out was intended, great...

 

[dragontamer]

I would hope that Robin can wall out Ganondorf, being like the only character who actually runs more slowly. If Robin's tools couldn't keep Ganondorf out sufficiently, that would be a bad, bad, bad matchup.

Robin's Tilts seem more than sufficient for the job.

Why? Just why? Is Samus the only character with a badly broken jab?

Robin and Lucario also have Jabs that don't always combo.

Robin's Jab1 remains an excellent option to just throw out however, its 4-frame jab with 4-active frames. Its still safe, and puts Robin at a good advantage... even without Jab2 or Jab3.

 

[Kofu]

(Sonic)
Down Air Attack: If you jump, Spring Jump, and then use this attack in quick succession, it will end right before you land, which means no landing delay!

So this annoying fake-out was intended, great...

I'm more upset that he's the only one that gets that privilege. The tips are surprisingly informative in general.

 

[Karaoke Man]

did you write this post just to hear yourself?
Grab follow ups: Kirby
Kirby doesn't have them past 10% and the ones he have are on a very small portion of the cast, U-air is not even part of that.

If you want o *just* talk an aerial game, we could but its not in the same lane of discussion.
Kirbys U-air losing isnt about frame data. Its about his hurtbox and him loosing (aka he gets hit and they dont even if they attacked LATER) because kirby has poor range, limited disjoints and the damage of the move is not particularly high so most D-airs or even N-airs worth their salt, break it and Kirby loses the exchange. Why is this relevant? In the context of grab follow ups, Kirby never has them in hitstun enough to get in position without them being able to Nair or down air.
He has to make a conscious read not simply "watch out for airdodges" but not to take unecessary damage he certainly cannot afford as one of the lightest characters in the game. He has an U-air but it's next to irrelevant in the context of a grab follow-up. Your opposition gets a huge amount of reaction time just due to the KB of your throws and how long you are disabled for.

Falcon has U-air follow ups out of his throws, so does Diddy, even Sheik, Fox, pit or hell even Ganon

You can save your grade school 5 W's for a relevant discussion.


@ Aunt Jemima , yes Hammer bash increases momentum. its why we've been advocating for it in the Kirby Custom project thread. Its also why I've said I dont understand why anyone would ever pick Hammer flip except against Marth/Lucina. Besides the recovery boost which mixed with Jumping inhale lets Kirby have versatile recovery, it is also a damn more reliable punish.

Uhh, no.

You talk about "relevant discussion", but want to disregard everything else that doesn't bind a character to the limitations of what's perceived as "good" or "bad" which is a perception , not an analysis. My point is that it is important not to dwell on what a character can't do, and focus on the strengths of they CAN do. Sure, Kirby doesn't get any follow-ups from grabs like Falcon or Diddy Kong. K, cool. That doesn't mean the grabs don't give you an advantageous position and make efficient use of it. Let's not forget that Kirby technically has 2 grabs and not just 1.

Hurtbox and range are both parts of collective data and data is always compared between other forms of it, which builds a perception. Perceptions of "good" and "bad" are limitations that the player puts on the character. Yeah, Kirby doesn't have the range of Donkey Kong, but he's not supposed to. It's all about playing the role of the character. Something that can't be explained through context, but through concept.

Also, ease up on the passive-aggression. We want to keep this respectful. I wrote that post to make it clear for people to comprehend it.

 

[Ffamran]

Robin and Lucario also have Jabs that don't always combo.

Robin's Jab1 remains an excellent option to just throw out however, its 4-frame jab with 4-active frames. Its still safe, and puts Robin at a good advantage... even without Jab2 or Jab3.

Samus Jab rant ahead:

Yes, but Samus's Jab combo is only, I repeat ONLY two hits with Jab 1 being 3% and Jab 2 being, I don't remember clearly, 8%. If she's missing the whole combo, that's 50% of the combo and only 3% of the total 11% which is about 25% of the total damage. Also, her Jab combo is so easy to interrupt it's not funny. To make it worse, her victory animation of - boxing terms here - jab, jab, and a straight with her Arm Cannon looks and is probably an even better Jab combo and it's a freaking victory animation! You'd think a famous, dangerous, and seasoned bounty hunter would know how to punch correctly, but nooo...

Falco's Jab combo is easy to get out after he starts spinning, but he can still land or bait with his final swing. So, that's 75% of the combo still usable and 75% is a passing grade compared to Samus's failure of a 50% of which she only has to land 2 hits while Falco has to land 4 total with one being a continuous attack.

Also, doesn't Lucario at least get the benefit of aura later on making up for his Jab combo whiffing? Heck, the knockback of his and probably Robin's makes up for not comboing unlike Samus's. You'd think a freaking metal fist from a superwoman would send you reeling, but nope!

Oh, and at least Meta Knight's Jab combo has a decent hit box if and he hits you, you're going to stay for a while unlike Samus's Jab combo...

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Uhh, no.

You talk about "relevant discussion", but want to disregard everything else that doesn't bind a character to the limitations of what's perceived as "good" or "bad" which is a perception , not an analysis.

Stopping you right there.
The only thing being discussed was the grab follow ups. I can disregard everything else because I am specifically *not* talking about them.
If I were to be talking about Kirby as a whole and only mentioned his lack of options out of a throw that would be disingenuous of me, but I'm doing no such thing.

The passive-aggression can cease when you get it's about the *specific* and not the whole, which is exactly why externals are disregarded. If you want to have a full Kirby talk again that's fine. If im talking specifically Kirbys options out of a throw however, and U-air isn't a credible follow-up, then I don't want to hear "He has a U-air" when it's a completely moot point.

 

[dragontamer]

You'd think a freaking metal fist from a superwoman would send you reeling, but nope!

Samus's strong-arm has a 10f Smash attack that KOs at ~100% centerstage sweetspot. IIRC, 10f makes it the fastest FSmash attack in the game.

Also, doesn't Lucario at least get the benefit of aura later on making up for his Jab combo whiffing? Heck, the knockback of his and probably Robin's makes up for not comboing unlike Samus's. You'd think a freaking metal fist from a superwoman would send you reeling, but nope!

Samus's Jab2 has more knockback and damage than Lucario's Jab3.

So... no. Samus's Jab2 is still superior to Lucario's wtf-worthy Jab2 / Jab3. (2.5% -> 2% -> 3% is Lucario's jab progression, with a worse KB value than Samus's Jab2).

Robin's Jab3 eats up a precious ElFire, and Robin's RapidJab ending eats up precious recovery wind. True, Jab3 does KO at a rather surprising point, but in practice I have major issues landing it.

In any case, Robin's Jab1 is a plenty good attack. But Samus Jab2, Robin Jab2, and Lucario Jab2 / Jab3 have to be amongst the worst attacks in the game. Its probably best to not transition to Jab2 unless you're sure the opponent is at the right % for the combo to go through.

 

[Asdioh]

Also, ease up on the passive-aggression. We want to keep this respectful. I wrote that post to make it clear for people to comprehend it.

ok really quick

Huh. I thought the range was terrible on it sans the dash grab. My bad. I know his [Kirby's] moves from a grab are good, unlike WFT.

Lol what moves from a grab. Kirby can barely follow up on anything. A B-throw to B-air and a F-throw to F-air are being mad generous. Least up-throw has good damage damage.

So, I hear Kirby has a Uair

And here we are. Kirby never ever gets an Upair followup from a grab. Certainly not guaranteed, and usually not even baited, unless your opponent intentionally DIs into you and doesn't airdodge or something. At best you get Bthrow->Bair (at very low percents, usually zero, and only on about half the cast) or Fthrow->double jump->Fair if they for some reason DI towards you instead of away at low/mid percents.

I can talk about Kirby for days, but I'm pretty sure he's bottom 10 in the cast and nobody really cares enough to talk about him so yeah. He's rarely mentioned in this thread, and probably for good reason. He's the very definition of a low tier in my eyes: the first time you play a good [low tier, in this case Kirby] player, you'll probably get wrecked. Once you get matchup experience and understand their tricks though, they'll be much less threatening. High tiers on the other hand: the first time you play a good [high tier] player, you'll probably get wrecked. Then, after you learn the matchup and all their tricks... they'll still always be threatening.


oh and about Samus... her frame 3 jab has decent range and I don't really care if it doesn't properly link into jab2, you just need to learn to use it in other ways, like the loading tip tells you. I think she has bigger problems, like her overall physics often working against her, and janky moves that make her have trouble dealing with characters from certain angles.

 

[|RK|]

Yep. Got a pastebin full of them here. Ness seems easy to gimp by design.

Other fun tips:

• Lucario's Aura maxes out at 2.5x power at 190%, but apparently there's a way to boost that even more. (Mega Lucario?)

Stock-based Aura has returned this game. At a two-stock deficit and 190%, Lucario is as powerful as Mega Lucario (fresh, fully-charged AS does 32%). At a two-stock advantage, he is weaker than normal.

 

[Ffamran]

Samus's strong-arm has a 10f Smash attack that KOs at ~100% centerstage sweetspot. IIRC, 10f makes it the fastest FSmash attack in the game.



Samus's Jab2 has more knockback and damage than Lucario's Jab3.

So... no. Samus's Jab2 is still superior to Lucario's wtf-worthy Jab2 / Jab3. (2.5% -> 2% -> 3% is Lucario's jab progression, with a worse KB value than Samus's Jab2).

Robin's Jab3 eats up a precious ElFire, and Robin's RapidJab ending eats up precious recovery wind. True, Jab3 does KO at a rather surprising point, but in practice I have major issues landing it.

In any case, Robin's Jab1 is a plenty good attack. But Samus Jab2, Robin Jab2, and Lucario Jab2 / Jab3 have to be amongst the worst attacks in the game. Its probably best to not transition to Jab2 unless you're sure the opponent is at the right % for the combo to go through.

I know her Side Smash is great, but her Jab combo is just bad which sucks because the damage output is good.

Of the characters I kind of want to be overhauled, Samus, Zelda, Ganondorf, and Toon Link are on my list. Sure, it may never happen, but there's things that could be changed even if it's slight to make them "better". Although, it's mostly lore-wise and informed abilities like Samus having a ton of weapons in Metroid, but only shows her Bombs, Super Missiles, Missiles, Charge Beam, Grapple Beam, Morph Ball which for whatever reason, she can't use to "crawl", and Screw Attack. Meanwhile, Mega Man uses tons of weapons and moves from his games. Where's Samus's Ice Beam, Ice Missiles, Wave Beam, Plasma Beam, Power Bomb, and other stuff from Metroid? What about Toon Link and the fact that the Zelda games have tons of items that are iconic or unique like the Fire Rod, Whip, Skull Hammer, and Deku Leaf? Oh, and don't mention the fact that Ganondorf can use magic or is a capable of using a sword, that riles people up.

Whatever... Samus isn't bad, well, nobody's bad in SSB4, thankfully, but there's some things that just don't make sense design-wise even if they're adaptable like her Utilt meteoring only on the ground. Okay, it can bounce and set up for a combo and it's powerful, but why can't it meteor opponents in the air? Or why Zelda has three sweet-spot aerials? Yes, they're fantastic for reads and punishes, but it makes her aerial approach kinda bad since it's mostly Nair, Nayru's Love, and risking sour-spots which frankly, aren't that great since the knockback is bad and it just leads to her getting punished.

Still, Samus has good combos like Fair and Uair out of her throws, Zair remains a good spacing tool, Down Smash is great for spacing, Ftilt spaces as well, Utilt kills and is anti-air, Dtilt is a good launcher, her Missiles can put pressure on others, Bombs allows her to stall in the air, Screw Attack is a decent "get off of me" move and a good recovery, Bair is fantastic, Nair is good for approaches, Up Smash kills and works like an anti-air tool, we already covered Side Smash, and Charge Shot is good for pressure charged, partially charged, or uncharged. Her issues are similar to Wii Fit Trainer's angles and where she hits. Tall opponents? No problem, but short ones? Yeah, that's an issue since they can slip past her Up Smash, Fair if you accidentally do it too low to the ground, Nair, Bair, and Zair. They're still manageable, though.

 

[Conda]

I know her Side Smash is great, but her Jab combo is just bad which sucks because the damage output is good.

Of the characters I kind of want to be overhauled, Samus, Zelda, Ganondorf, and Toon Link are on my list. Sure, it may never happen, but there's things that could be changed even if it's slight to make them "better". Although, it's mostly lore-wise and informed abilities like Samus having a ton of weapons in Metroid, but only shows her Bombs, Super Missiles, Missiles, Charge Beam, Grapple Beam, Morph Ball which for whatever reason, she can't use to "crawl", and Screw Attack. Meanwhile, Mega Man uses tons of weapons and moves from his games. Where's Samus's Ice Beam, Ice Missiles, Wave Beam, Plasma Beam, Power Bomb, and other stuff from Metroid? What about Toon Link and the fact that the Zelda games have tons of items that are iconic or unique like the Fire Rod, Whip, Skull Hammer, and Deku Leaf? Oh, and don't mention the fact that Ganondorf can use magic or is a capable of using a sword, that riles people up.

Whatever... Samus isn't bad, well, nobody's bad in SSB4, thankfully, but there's some things that just don't make sense design-wise even if they're adaptable like her Utilt meteoring only on the ground. Okay, it can bounce and set up for a combo and it's powerful, but why can't it meteor opponents in the air? Or why Zelda has three sweet-spot aerials? Yes, they're fantastic for reads and punishes, but it makes her aerial approach kinda bad since it's mostly Nair, Nayru's Love, and risking sour-spots which frankly, aren't that great since the knockback is bad and it just leads to her getting punished.

Still, Samus has good combos like Fair and Uair out of her throws, Zair remains a good spacing tool, Down Smash is great for spacing, Ftilt spaces as well, Utilt kills and is anti-air, Dtilt is a good launcher, her Missiles can put pressure on others, Bombs allows her to stall in the air, Screw Attack is a decent "get off of me" move and a good recovery, Bair is fantastic, Nair is good for approaches, Up Smash kills and works like an anti-air tool, we already covered Side Smash, and Charge Shot is good for pressure charged, partially charged, or uncharged. Her issues are similar to Wii Fit Trainer's angles and where she hits. Tall opponents? No problem, but short ones? Yeah, that's an issue since they can slip past her Up Smash, Fair if you accidentally do it too low to the ground, Nair, Bair, and Zair. They're still manageable, though.

Sakurai clearly didn't want to scrap and redesign a character who has fought this way for 3 games already, no matter how justified a rework would be.

Mario doesn't use powerups in his moveset. He doesn't use the cape or Racoon tail to recover, he doesn't shoot ice balls, he doesn't use the tanooki tail to attack foes, etc. This is because he was designed with the n64 in mind, and also with Smash's mechanics in mind. It's the same for MANY characters in Smash. Megaman is a product of a more modern and deliberately-nostalgic character design, and thus has more of his in-game moves in his smash moveset. He breaks a lot of conventions, but he would not be unique if there weren't those conventions in place.

Sakurai decided that projectiles belong as specials, not normals - Samus having all of her projectiles as normal attacks would make megaman (and villager) less of the unique characters they are supposed to be. Agree or disagree.

The way Samus fights is wholly unique and something you can't just throw away, even if a more Samus-y Samus would make sense. If she had ice beam and other stuff as part of her A-attack moveset in smash 64, she'd be way too projectile focused for that game. It wasn't until Megaman/Villager/etc that having projectiles as part of your normal moveset was normal. But updating Samus to fit in with this design change wouldn't work, as she already has her own established moveset.

One could also justify that there's no reason why Samus doesn't use more melee combat in her own games, wearing a suit of armor and all. Thus her Smash moveset is arguably just 'different', but not 'wrong'. Yeah, she doesn't have superspeed or roll crawl or ice beams or anything, but she still feels like a powersuit fighter with strong projectile game.

Plus, there's way more from her own games in her moveset than other characters have from their own games. Heck, it wasn't until Smash 4 that DK got the only actual attack he had in his Donkey Kong Country games - his dash attack roll. The rest of him is pretty much made up by Sakurai.

She's just a unique take on the character. Like it or not, Sakurai wasn't ready to toss the unique envisioning of Samus in the trash just to make her use ice beam and such.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

(Sonic)
Down Air Attack: If you jump, Spring Jump, and then use this attack in quick succession, it will end right before you land, which means no landing delay!

So this annoying fake-out was intended, great...

This was actually nerfed from Brawl. He used to be able to spring dair from closer to the ground and have no recovery. Now if he tries to spring dair out of rapid jabs or something he lands pretty punishable.