Character Competitive Impressions

[Smog Frog]

bloodcross placed top 32 at apex but because of the hotel stuff he didnt make the cut to top 16

 

[Yokoblue]

If I remember right, a Bowser made it to Top 32 at APEX 2015. I don't remember his name though. Can't find any Challonge with Top 32...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

In case some people don't know this, Luma Warp has a hitbox. If Luma reappears on your opponent, it puts them into hitstun and moves them slightly forward, which creates a situation in which a follow-up Luma F-Smash is guaranteed (at least if you "sweet spot" it), because Luma can attack almost instantaneously after reappearing. Luma F-Smash has insanely good kill power. Essentially this means that Rosalina has a projectile that is absurdly fast, can't be neutralized by other projectiles, and leads to guaranteed KOs, often even at low %s.

At Nebulous in NYC yesterday, I got several KOs this way, including against Nairo's Zelda and NinjaLink's Mega Man.

I think they need to be at highish % before the fsmash followup is guaranteed. Jab or tilts should still work though.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I think they need to be at highish % before the fsmash followup is guaranteed. Jab or tilts should still work though.

I could be wrong, but it sure seems like the F-Smash follow up works pretty much every single time, unless Luma reappears towards the opposite end of your opponent, which pushes them the wrong way (although, perhaps a turnaround F-Smash might work for that? Need to test that out.) Even if it's only guaranteed at higher %s, that's by far the most important thing anyway, because its best use is as a kill move.

 

[TTTTTsd]

6) Fire Orb is... not totally useless. I successfully edgeguarded a DIddy with this! but it did require a mistake from him

Mmmm I'm gonna have to disagree. It's good for one thing and I'd argue that's ledge traps if you know they're going to snap to that ledge and you throw it in advance to limit their ledge action options but...in the grand scheme of things, it is totally useless because it's on the same slot as Fast Fireball or Standard Fireball, both of which are better and do more than it (Fast Fireball especially). Fire Orb is basically useless.

 

[Yokoblue]

I don't get why people prefer Fast fireball over Standard Fireball.
Yes Fast Fireball give you a range option and its fast, faster than most projectile. Though, its not like Mario has problem against projectile with cape etc. Its not like you can do followup after FastFireballs like you can with normal fireballs.

Could someone explain the competitive usage of Fast Fireballs over normal fireballs ? What MU does FastFireballs do better than normal fireballs ? I've read a bit on the Mario forum but ... I'm not convinced at all...

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Mmmm I'm gonna have to disagree. It's good for one thing and I'd argue that's ledge traps if you know they're going to snap to that ledge and you throw it in advance to limit their ledge action options but...in the grand scheme of things, it is totally useless because it's on the same slot as Fast Fireball or Standard Fireball, both of which are better and do more than it (Fast Fireball especially). Fire Orb is basically useless.

fire orb would argueably be the best in my opinion if the lag was not terrible.

 

[HeroMystic]

I don't get why people prefer Fast fireball over Standard Fireball.
Yes Fast Fireball give you a range option and its fast, faster than most projectile. Though, its not like Mario has problem against projectile with cape etc. Its not like you can do followup after FastFireballs like you can with normal fireballs.

Could someone explain the competitive usage of Fast Fireballs over normal fireballs ? What MU does FastFireballs do better than normal fireballs ? I've read a bit on the Mario forum but ... I'm not convinced at all...

From my excerpt that I decided to not post on the Customs thread:

Fireball

The default fireball is a versatile one. It does pretty good damage for a projectile (5% to 4%), stays out for a decently long time, and gives Mario an approach option. The special thing about fireball is it is affected by gravity, so it is capable of covering Mario's landings to avoid getting juggled. Finally, it does what every projectile should do and zones out your opponent, not allowing them to do what they want on the stage.

The biggest issue with Fireball however is the Recovery time before you're able to act with Mario (i.e. IASA frames, look it up). It's large, and it neuters Fireball's capabilities as an offensive tool. The second biggest issue with Fireballs is due to it's slow-moving nature, it's easily powershielded and beaten out by other attacks, so Fireball's best mechanic is controlling space. Damage and approaching are secondary benefits.

Fast Fireball

Loss of versatility for the sake of better zoning. Fast Fireball is Mario's go-to answer for speedsters and other zoners. This move comes out pretty fast (frame 8 vs default's frame 16), and rids of the recovery problem that default fireball has, allowing Mario to act much sooner out of it. Fast Fireball is also... well, fast. Comparable to the speed of Fox's lasers. This makes it much harder to powershield on reaction.

The biggest issue with Fast Fireball is the damage. It's 3%(Close) to 2.3%(Mid) to 1.5%(Far). With stale moves taken into account, Fast Fireball's damage is gonna end up pretty poor, and since damage is the main factor for hitstun, this is an issue when using this to create openings to approach. The second, and perhaps biggest reason as to why Default Fireball remains an equal contender to this is Fast Fireball is not affected by gravity, therefore it does not help Mario cover his landings, and you can miss some valuable edgeguard opportunities that Default Fireball has.

Nevertheless, it's capabilities of zoning, and allowing you to act fast cannot be ignored. This is on par with Luigi's fireballs and that's saying something.

 

[Nobie]

From my excerpt that I decided to not post on the Customs thread:

Fireball

The default fireball is a versatile one. It does pretty good damage for a projectile (5% to 4%), stays out for a decently long time, and gives Mario an approach option. The special thing about fireball is it is affected by gravity, so it is capable of covering Mario's landings to avoid getting juggled. Finally, it does what every projectile should do and zones out your opponent, not allowing them to do what they want on the stage.

The biggest issue with Fireball however is the Recovery time before you're able to act with Mario (i.e. IASA frames, look it up). It's large, and it neuters Fireball's capabilities as an offensive tool. The second biggest issue with Fireballs is due to it's slow-moving nature, it's easily powershielded and beaten out by other attacks, so Fireball's best mechanic is controlling space. Damage and approaching are secondary benefits.

Fast Fireball

Loss of versatility for the sake of better zoning. Fast Fireball is Mario's go-to answer for speedsters and other zoners. This move comes out pretty fast (frame 8 vs default's frame 16), and rids of the recovery problem that default fireball has, allowing Mario to act much sooner out of it. Fast Fireball is also... well, fast. Comparable to the speed of Fox's lasers. This makes it much harder to powershield on reaction.

The biggest issue with Fast Fireball is the damage. It's 3%(Close) to 2.3%(Mid) to 1.5%(Far). With stale moves taken into account, Fast Fireball's damage is gonna end up pretty poor, and since damage is the main factor for hitstun, this is an issue when using this to create openings to approach. The second, and perhaps biggest reason as to why Default Fireball remains an equal contender to this is Fast Fireball is not affected by gravity, therefore it does not help Mario cover his landings, and you can miss some valuable edgeguard opportunities that Default Fireball has.

Nevertheless, it's capabilities of zoning, and allowing you to act fast cannot be ignored. This is on par with Luigi's fireballs and that's saying something.

How do distance and rate of fire on Fast Fireball compare to Mega Man's pellets?

 

[HeroMystic]

How do distance and rate of fire on Fast Fireball compare to Mega Man's pellets?

Megaman's Pellets goes through 1/3rd of FD.
Mario's Fast Fireball goes through half of FD.

Megaman's still fires faster though he has an opening for Fast Fireball to go through after his third pellet.

 

[BBC7]

I don't know if this belongs here, but I think that R.O.B. may have an increased chance of getting stagespiked if he tries to use the stage in order to guide him. I found this out on Omega Skyworld, and used Game & Watch's DA to test it. If this is true, Omega Skyworld would be a rather interesting counterpick for R.O.B. Haven't played enough R.O.B. to know if this flaw is known. I've also stagespiked with Game & Watch Ledge Attack against Pit's Up B on Omega Battlefield.

 

[Yonder]

If I remember right, a Bowser made it to Top 32 at APEX 2015. I don't remember his name though. Can't find any Challonge with Top 32...

There was a decent Bowser at the touney I went to yesterday. Don't know if he made top 32 though.

There was also an amazing DK that made 4th. That I lost to in semis. DK's Bair should have it's own character slot, it's ridiculously good.

 

[NairWizard]

Mmmm I'm gonna have to disagree. It's good for one thing and I'd argue that's ledge traps if you know they're going to snap to that ledge and you throw it in advance to limit their ledge action options but...in the grand scheme of things, it is totally useless because it's on the same slot as Fast Fireball or Standard Fireball, both of which are better and do more than it (Fast Fireball especially). Fire Orb is basically useless.

I would argue that there are some matchups in which Fire Orb is the logical choice, like Fox or Olimar.

In the Olimar MU, using Fast Fireballs against Pikmin is a losing proposition (it does little due to pitiful damage), and regular Fireballs just let Olimar get in on you (or get away from you; the Pikmin still don't really care about Fireballs in my experience). Fire Orb destroys some Pikmin at a distance and is good for trapping Olimar on the ledge, so I'd rather take it over the other two. Situational use is better than (practically) no use.

In the Fox MU, the last place you want to be against Fox is in the air committing to your projectile (f-air -> up-air is too terrifying). What do Fireballs even do against Fox? I've never been able to control space against Fox using Fireballs. Fast Fireballs are too vulnerable to reflector at distances greater than midrange, plus lasers win that game anyway. I'd totally rather have Fire Orb against Fox's mediocre recovery.

So, basically, Fast Fireball and Fireball are really mediocre in some MUs, whereas Fire Orb retains some use, so I'd still take it in those MUs.

 

[Antonykun]

@ NairWizard What have you done to me?!
When I said I wanted to main Pikachu you should have stopped me
Now I'm a monster, a pocket monster

In all seriousness Pika really is ridiculous he goes wherever he pleases with QA has some serious combos that start from said QA pokes shields with QA...Have I mentioned QA is love and life? It is. Now I really don't feel uncomfortable learning this adorable monstrosity

 

[NachoOfCheese]

There was a decent Bowser at the touney I went to yesterday. Don't know if he made top 32 though.

There was also an amazing DK that made 4th. That I lost to in semis. DK's Bair should have it's own character slot, it's ridiculously good.

Bair and Uair. I honestly think that it's among the best in the game (along side Robin, Ness, C Falcon, and the unspoken one )
It comes out ludicrously fast for its immense power (Frame 6 iirc) which is even faster than his back air! I swear, these are the moves that define DK. His solid air game gives him power despite his horrible flaws, namely recovery and being combo prone.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No, this is false. I've had conversations with my opponents in For Glory.

--

*adds self to ranks of Mario mains* I've tried out most of the Top/High Tiers in tournament, and now that customs are on in my region I'll start using Mario more I think. Won a tournament with Mario this weekend, and my Mario isn't quite at the level of my Pikachu yet; I'm pretty sure that my custom choices drove that win.

(side note: I had considered Luigi for a while, but man, I hate it when people camp Luigi. Nothing could be more boring than having to get in against a Megaman using SH pellets to keep you out, when your aerial mobility is on the level of dead salmon. It's doable, but it's oh-so-frustrating and it kills your motivation to play through say a Winners Finals set (at least it does for me; it wears me out), so "play Mario instead" is my choice)

My view of Mario's customs:

1) Shocking Cape is really, really good
2) Ditto Explosive Jump Punch & Super Jump Punch -- both super useful
3) Ditto High Pressure Fludd -- surprisingly great in most matchups
4) Gust Cape is less impressive than I had imagined when the game came out, but still good in certain MUs
5) Ditto Fast Fireball
6) Fire Orb is... not totally useless. I successfully edgeguarded a DIddy with this! but it did require a mistake from him
7) Scaling Fludd -- I didn't get to use this, but I'm sure there's a use for it. It seems likely.

Out of the Top/High Tiers, Mario is the only one--besides Fox, whom I talked about earlier--who benefits from basically all of his customs. Most characters in top 15 don't really get more than 1-2 useful customs except maybe Olimar (if you view him as top 15, as I do) and Rosalina (but she gets as much against her as for her). The exception of Fox should be qualified: Fox gets better, but not to the extent that Mario gets better, and Fox benefits in kind of a linear way where his major playstyle gets easier to execute. Mario on the other hand gets whole new playstyles from his customs, which is all kinds of amazing.

I actually think right now Scalding FLUDD is the best Down-B for Mario because I feel FLUDD and High Pressure FLUDD as edgeguards get increasingly less useful in most matchups when people react to it with airdodge and recover low, unless you are able to specifically go out deep to edgeguard with them. This isn't to say that they are useless, as you can still use them for stage control (pushing people off the stage is underrated against zoning) and in some situations discouraging people from using Up-B reversals on stage recklessly. However Scalding FLUDD as an actual disjointed spacing tool much like Shocking Cape is underestimated and has a lot of broad universal applications.

Super Jump on Mario also opens a completely different playstyle which combined with High Pressure FLUDD and Shocking Cape can be quite useful for edgeguards. It competes heavily with EJP's combo/aerial kill potential but in some matchups against floaty characters where EJP combos aren't quite as reliable, I do think Super Jump for edgeguards is quite viable, if conditional.

 

[NairWizard]

@ NairWizard What have you done to me?!
When I said I wanted to main pikachu you should have stopped me
Now I'm a monster, a pocket monster

In all seriousness Pika really is ridiculous he goes wherever he pleases with QA has some serious combos that start from said QA pokes shields with QA...Have I mentioned QA is love and life? It is. Now I really don't feel uncomfortable learning this adorable monstrosity

Quick Attack is the truth, yes.

Just be careful not to overuse it. It does get punished, and Pikachu is light, so punishes hurt a lot.

What's really hilarious though is how it messes with your opponent's mind, especially opponents who haven't seen it before. At the start of the match try QA'ing directly through your opponent once or twice. Start with one that's about at your opponent's head height. Usually the opponent tries to aerial you. This is when you mix up and go lower to the ground, ducking under the aerial, or higher up, tearing through the aerial. Then, your opponent will try to shield it. QA over his head and abuse the fact that he has extra shield drop frames from nothing hitting his shield by QA'ing again immediately to avoid the grab/dash punish attempt. Then, on the other side, as your opponent feels helpless and overwhelmed by your speed, QA in place (QA away, then return to where you started) once or twice, just for maximum mindgames.

That's when you run in and grab, because your opponent is stuck shielding in place.

It doesn't work against high-level players.

But it is so satisfying.

For extra brownie points, try this on For Glory if you can adjust to the lag. Your opponent will likely just SD his stocks away and leave with a message of "SPAM" or "SPAMMER."

kekekeke,

 

[Antonykun]

Quick Attack is the truth, yes.

Just be careful not to overuse it. It does get punished, and Pikachu is light, so punishes hurt a lot.

What's really hilarious though is how it messes with your opponent's mind, especially opponents who haven't seen it before. At the start of the match try QA'ing directly through your opponent once or twice. Start with one that's about at your opponent's head height. Usually the opponent tries to aerial you. This is when you mix up and go lower to the ground, ducking under the aerial, or higher up, tearing through the aerial. Then, your opponent will try to shield it. QA over his head and abuse the fact that he has extra shield drop frames from nothing hitting his shield by QA'ing again immediately to avoid the grab/dash punish attempt. Then, on the other side, as your opponent feels helpless and overwhelmed by your speed, QA in place (QA away, then return to where you started) once or twice, just for maximum mindgames.

That's when you run in and grab, becaues your opponent is stuck shielding in place.

It doesn't work against high-level players.

But it is so satisfying.

For extra brownie points, try this on For Glory if you can adjust to the lag. Your opponent will likely just SD his stocks away and leave with a message of "SPAM" or "SPAMMER."

kekekeke,

In my 10 practice matches in for glory i only gotten 2 people who stayed for a second round, I feel like a super villain.
Oh yeah that's JUST QA pikachu has, he has all sorts of other amazing buttons that its like I've died and gone to top tier heaven.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

As someone who mains Rosalina, and not Shulk, no offense but you have no idea what you're talking about. A 13 frame aerial with the longest range and some of the longest lasting hitboxes in the game, coupled with ease of use in a SH, coupled with virtually non-existent landing lag, topped with the ability to hit below basically immediately (it starts from behind but hits below him only a couple frames in) make Shulk's nair one of the game's best. It allows for grab follow-ups very quickly, so being "unsafe on shield" doesn't even matter that much. It also nullifies projectile spam. The move auto-cancels the rest of the animation when you land as well. Its utility cannot be understated, because its pretty much the beginning of most of Shulk's options in every Monado mode.

You've already hilariously claimed he's a bottom five character, so most of your opinion on him is, no offense, rather nullified by that statement. I could go on a million reasons why Rosa is actually my least favorite character in the game (I do no enjoy her in any capacity no matter how many times I try to use her) but it wouldn't change that she's among the best, and I accept that regardless of my own opinions, and respect those that main her and know her strengths. I wouldn't proclaim her to be worse than she is and undersell her signature moves when I am not in a position to do so. And you shouldn't either. I guarantee I've played Shulk far, far more than you have.

Don't undersell characters you aren't even proficient with, because no matter how much frame data you acquire, you always fail to look at the bigger picture. You did it in previous posts too. Frame data doesn't matter when your attack auto-cancels, is almost lagless, and has the best range in the game for a move of its kind.

And I'm not going to start an argument here, so don't bother with the "Shulk is garbage, botom 5, atks 2 slo" rant, because, believe me, I'm not fond of your character either, but I won't put anyone down for using her.


On the topic everyone else is actually talking about, I see Charizard as being a different character than DK and Bowser, and he does have a niche. His attack style is definitely different, as many of his attacks have unusual properties, like wing disjoint, tail fire sweetspots, and the splash damage of Down Smash. Charizard is a character that people really need to practice to use well because his fighting style isn't as simplistic. I feel like his complicated style, combined with a somewhat low reward (its no Rosalina or MK reward) has discouraged people from using him and representing him at tournaments, but he has potential, especially with customs being on.

What's discouraged him from being used is the fact that the character sucks.Sorry but no his nair isn't one of the best. Yeah it auto cancels but so does every other nair. Yes it's a combo starter but so is every other nair. It has range but with how slow it is makes it irrelevant. Then there's the fact that it hit behind him first. Which mean most of your approaches with nair are going to be RAR. Then for the auro cancel to even be a factor you're going to have to FF . Which means that hit box you're bragging about isn't as great as you claim. Then you have to factor in his inability to weave in and out of his aerials. When you factor all of those in you start to realize just how poor of a character he is.

Having range is a plus it's shulk's biggest selling point. The problem with his range is his frame data. Which makes his range almost null and void. When other characters have better mobility and can eadily get inside of shulk's zones and dominate him there it's a problem.

No I don't main shulk it didn't take me long to see the character for what he is. But you claim I'm only looking at frame data. Let's look at shulk's mu who does he actually beat? Let's look at results his results have gotten worse since the 3ds/ early wii u days. Is trela still the best shulk? Johnnynumbers dropped and idk if ally still playing him. But Zero said he's going to play him more so there's that.

Anyways getting back to nair. It's uses are more limited than you lead on. You can't edgeguard with the move and it doesn't combo break like other nairs. Which lessen it's versatility IMO. Even though i say combo break I mean those tight situations where it's not a true combo but you only have a couple of frames to do something. Yeah you can mash counter but that doesn't always work.

If you're going to talk Rosalina's frame data then please include luma. Luma's nair is 3 frames and so is her bair. Rosalina's nair is 9 frames and her bair is 9 frames as well yes they're on the side but still effective. So if you want to compare frame data that's fine with me.

I'm not proficient with a lot of characters but I still attempt to learn their options and try to figure them out. Since I haven't been able to go to tournaments and get involved with the scene more.

 

[Antonykun]

What's discouraged him from being used is the fact that the character sucks.Sorry but no his nair isn't one of the best. Yeah it auto cancels but so does every other nair. Yes it's a combo starter but so is every other nair. It has range but with how slow it is makes it irrelevant. Then there's the fact that it hit behind him first. Which mean most of your approaches with nair are going to be RAR. Then for the auro cancel to even be a factor you're going to have to FF . Which means that hit box you're bragging about isn't as great as you claim. Then you have to factor in his inability to weave in and out of his aerials. When you factor all of those in you start to realize just how poor of a character he is.

Having range is a plus it's shulk's biggest selling point. The problem with his range is his frame data. Which makes his range almost null and void. When other characters have better mobility and can eadily get inside of shulk's zones and dominate him there it's a problem.

No I don't main shulk it didn't take me long to see the character for what he is. But you claim I'm only looking at frame data. Let's look at shulk's mu who does he actually beat? Let's look at results his results have gotten worse since the 3ds/ early wii u days. Is trela still the best shulk? Johnnynumbers dropped and idk if ally still playing him. But Zero said he's going to play him more so there's that.

Anyways getting back to nair. It's uses are more limited than you lead on. You can't edgeguard with the move and it doesn't combo break like other nairs. Which lessen it's versatility IMO. Even though i say combo break I mean those tight situations where it's not a true combo but you only have a couple of frames to do something. Yeah you can mash counter but that doesn't always work.

If you're going to talk Rosalina's frame data then please include luma. Luma's nair is 3 frames and so is her bair. Rosalina's nair is 9 frames and her bair is 9 frames as well yes they're on the side but still effective. So if you want to compare frame data that's fine with me.

I'm not proficient with a lot of characters but I still attempt to learn their options and try to figure them out. Since I haven't been able to go to tournaments and get involved with the scene more.

One day...(I can't fathom how to spell your name) you'll see an amazing Shulk and when you do you'll really feel it

 

[Ffamran]

Where can you find Luma's frame data? Is it still being worked on? ... Off to ask someone who knows...

Anyway, Shulk probably has an edge on Falco, but so does everyone else who has good melee range like Marth, Lucina, Link, Toon Link, Ike, Rosalina, and probably even Mii Swordfighter. The moment Falco steps forward is the moment the Monado slams onto his face and cleaves him into a nasty, bisected pheasant unsuited for cooking.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Where can you find Luma's frame data? Is it still being worked on? ... Off to ask someone who knows...

Anyway, Shulk probably has an edge on Falco, but so does everyone else who has good melee range like Marth, Lucina, Link, Toon Link, Ike, Rosalina, and probably even Mii Swordfighter. The moment Falco steps forward is the moment the Monado slams onto his face and cleaves him into a nasty, bisected pheasant unsuited for cooking.

It's in the rosalina forums. It's not stickied though so you're going to have to look at the 2nd page. What it has listed as luma's frame data is off by a frame.

 

[Ffamran]

It's in the rosalina forums. It's not stickied though so you're going to have to look at the 2nd page. What it has listed as luma's frame data is off by a frame.

Yeah, Lavani told me about the frame 1 addition because Luma responds after Rosalina which makes sense since the puppeteer/summoner/controller/whatever commands/moves first before the puppet/summon/controllee/whatever.

If we had a Luma icon, the hit frames table would look much nicer... Welp, time to look for a Luma icon or I could just type "Luma" for it.

 

[Timbers]

People usually forget about megafox, HM, cause people just pay attention to 2 stock meta and the NJ/Coast areas. Too lazy to branch out and actively search for things.

If it wasn't for you bringing up espy the few times sonic was brought up in this thread the past 2 or so months, people would only keep remembering about 6wx.

Streaming isn't really the issue, we're at least one of the few regions that post our results on smashboards, realistically been doing so on here for years still over defaulting to facebook exclusively like some places.

What else more do we need to do for exposure, Reddit and twitter too?
Instagram and Snapchat?
Maybe 4chan.

I would like to say I guess it's too much and people too lazy to ask for most people to do three clicks for Smashboards > tournament results > thread and scroll a bit to find stuff, over just reddit front page or Facebook messages

I think the biggest piece of exposure came from Apex. Both Nakat and Larry were able to show off on stream at a huge national. Same goes for 6WX. All three of them have also had plenty of screentime on their region's tournament streams.

Streaming probably is the #1 method of getting names out there. I doubt it's because people are "too lazy to branch out." I've been keeping tabs on both Megafox and Espy because I enjoy watching them, but after viciously searching for videos or past broadcast streams of their performances, it's REALLY hard to find any actual footage of these players (until very recently with your LoS weeklies). I know I was super bummed to find out that SAM1 only had a single match of Megafox.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

What's discouraged him from being used is the fact that the character sucks.Sorry but no his nair isn't one of the best. Yeah it auto cancels but so does every other nair. Yes it's a combo starter but so is every other nair. It has range but with how slow it is makes it irrelevant. Then there's the fact that it hit behind him first. Which mean most of your approaches with nair are going to be RAR. Then for the auro cancel to even be a factor you're going to have to FF . Which means that hit box you're bragging about isn't as great as you claim. Then you have to factor in his inability to weave in and out of his aerials. When you factor all of those in you start to realize just how poor of a character he is.

Having range is a plus it's shulk's biggest selling point. The problem with his range is his frame data. Which makes his range almost null and void. When other characters have better mobility and can eadily get inside of shulk's zones and dominate him there it's a problem.

No I don't main shulk it didn't take me long to see the character for what he is. But you claim I'm only looking at frame data. Let's look at shulk's mu who does he actually beat? Let's look at results his results have gotten worse since the 3ds/ early wii u days. Is trela still the best shulk? Johnnynumbers dropped and idk if ally still playing him. But Zero said he's going to play him more so there's that.

Anyways getting back to nair. It's uses are more limited than you lead on. You can't edgeguard with the move and it doesn't combo break like other nairs. Which lessen it's versatility IMO. Even though i say combo break I mean those tight situations where it's not a true combo but you only have a couple of frames to do something. Yeah you can mash counter but that doesn't always work.

If you're going to talk Rosalina's frame data then please include luma. Luma's nair is 3 frames and so is her bair. Rosalina's nair is 9 frames and her bair is 9 frames as well yes they're on the side but still effective. So if you want to compare frame data that's fine with me.

I'm not proficient with a lot of characters but I still attempt to learn their options and try to figure them out. Since I haven't been able to go to tournaments and get involved with the scene more.

I lost you when you started saying Shulk's Nair isn't that great

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I lost you when you started saying Shulk's Nair isn't that great

Sorry man but it's true. Also I'll go back to not explaining my opinions since there's ignorant ****s like NachoOfCheese.

 

[Ffamran]

Have you all watched ZeRo's match commentaries? This was posted in the Falco boards and the Marth boards have ZeRo's match commentary there as well. ZeRo can make any character look godplayer. Now, let's have him play as Brawl Ganondorf.

Even ZeRo has some things to say about

 

[Antonykun]

Have you all watched ZeRo's match commentaries? This was posted in the Falco boards and the Marth boards have ZeRo's match commentary there as well. ZeRo can make any character look godplayer. Now, let's have him play as Brawl Ganondorf.

he said he loves villager but doesn't play him because Sheik one day...

 

[Ffamran]

he said he loves villager but doesn't play him because Sheik one day...

ZeRo said he would play as Captain Falcon and Shulk more after Apex, right? The thing is that ZeRo definitely understands the game, so he can use every character well because of fundamentals and knowing the characters. The more time he spends with a character like what we've seen with Diddy, the more impressive his game play is. Anyway, I digress.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Have you all watched ZeRo's match commentaries? This was posted in the Falco boards and the Marth boards have ZeRo's match commentary there as well. ZeRo can make any character look godplayer. Now, let's have him play as Brawl Ganondorf.

I've been catching them he's really an impressive player. I like watching those videos.

 

[Castell]

Shulk is a character that is deliberately held back by a lot of factors. Terrible frame data, bad inertia, sub-par recovery, etc. He's clearly designed with the idea that Monado Arts are a serious game changer for him. It's been discussed how much of a game breaker Monado Arts would be on any character other than Shulk. His entire gameplan is based on being in the right Art in the right time and negating his inherent weaknesses. You can't discount his Monado Arts as they make him.
Vanilla Shulk can only really approach with nair and fair. Once in Jump and Speed he can use his amazing pivot grab, pivot f-tilt, and bair, he gains mix-ups with SHFF aerial or pivot grab or pivot f-tilt or tomahawk grab. Additionally, his bad inertia is completely eliminated as he now has the best aerial mobility in the game. Once in Buster, his moves start becoming safer on shield and he gets ridiculous damage off of relatively easy confirms. Once is Shield, he can take advantage of a larger and more hp, faster regnerating shield and build up rage for a incredibly strong counter. Once in Smash, his long range makes him ridiculously scary as all of his tilts, aerials and smashes will now kill in the 90-100% range.
Shulk is definitely an odd character (seriously, what is up with that utilt) with crap frame data, but it's not difficult to see how he can be good, at least not in bottom 5. There's been a lot of tech discovered for him, canceling landing lag with Monado Arts, buffer art cancels. Will he ever be high tier? If Zero starts wrecking with him, then he'll certainly be in people's minds.

And yes, nair is amazing. Auto cancel, long lasting hit box, leads into grabs, leads into combos, covers entirely around Shulk, covers almost every ledge option, and deals a decent 8%.

 

[Ffamran]

I've been catching them he's really an impressive player. I like watching those videos.

I keep hearing how much time he puts into the game which is both amazing and kind of I don't know, obsessive? No one's at his level yet, but a year or two later, it won't be uncommon. I mean, recent matches of people playing the previous SSB's are just wicked because all the techniques and such are known. It wasn't like now where people are figuring out things. Sheiks are letting people live to 150%, but I wouldn't be surprised if in a year, Sheiks are killing at 100% by playing amazingly. Ganondorf kills at any percent, especially if you're stupid enough to go under him while off stage. Imagine what would happen in a year. One year could make Ganondorf even more dangerous as a punisher. What about Pikachu, Ike, Rosalina, Shulk, Greninja, Fox, Mega Man, Link, or Marth? All of them in a year with players just getting better at fundamentals and understanding the game would improve them.

Not a lot people go off stage unless they know they can do something, but in the future, it won't be surprising to see people go off stage more or use the ledge more as a way to land an aerial close to the ledge. I remember Seagull doing that with Wolf and pretty much anyone can do that. If you can't use the ledge to prevent people from grabbing it anymore because of the game's mechanic, then why not use attacks to catch them before they get to the ledge? I've seen a couple Falcos do it because Falco's Bair is just ludicrous in this game. Granted, they have to know the spacing or else.

Right now, it's early and people are still feeling the game out in spite of technology allowing people to share strategies and review their and other player's mistakes. ZeRo critiques himself constantly with his videos. Look at his Link video and you'll see him pointing out mistake after mistake and how he and the viewers can learn from them.

 

[meleebrawler]

Everyone says Shulk Nair auto-cancels. It doesn't. It just has naturally low landing lag.

Also, Shulk doesn't really "approach" with Fair so much as use it to space people out
like Marth used to do. Bair can also do spacing with the added quirk of being able to hit
frontal enemies up close.

 

[Ffamran]

Was it Shofu who streamed customs for the upcoming tournaments allowing customs? This was posted in the Falco boards and it's the first time I ever saw Falco's customs being used in a match outside of friendlies I had.

Shofu vs Zef. Falco dittos.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Sorry man but it's true. Also I'll go back to not explaining my opinions since there's ignorant ****s like NachoOfCheese.

It's your opinion vs everyone else's. No need for hostility

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I keep hearing how much time he puts into the game which is both amazing and kind of I don't know, obsessive? No one's at his level yet, but a year or two later, it won't be uncommon. I mean, recent matches of people playing the previous SSB's are just wicked because all the techniques and such are known. It wasn't like now where people are figuring out things. Sheiks are letting people live to 150%, but I wouldn't be surprised if in a year, Sheiks are killing at 100% by playing amazingly. Ganondorf kills at any percent, especially if you're stupid enough to go under him while off stage. Imagine what would happen in a year. One year could make Ganondorf even more dangerous as a punisher. What about Pikachu, Ike, Rosalina, Shulk, Greninja, Fox, Mega Man, Link, or Marth? All of them in a year with players just getting better at fundamentals and understanding the game would improve them.

Not a lot people go off stage unless they know they can do something, but in the future, it won't be surprising to see people go off stage more or use the ledge more as a way to land an aerial close to the ledge. I remember Seagull doing that with Wolf and pretty much anyone can do that. If you can't use the ledge to prevent people from grabbing it anymore because of the game's mechanic, then why not use attacks to catch them before they get to the ledge? I've seen a couple Falcos do it because Falco's Bair is just ludicrous in this game. Granted, they have to know the spacing or else.

Right now, it's early and people are still feeling the game out in spite of technology allowing people to share strategies and review their and other player's mistakes. ZeRo critiques himself constantly with his videos. Look at his Link video and you'll see him pointing out mistake after mistake and how he and the viewers can learn from them.

well he plays smash as his livlyhood so he better have the best understanding of this game. Xd

 

[Ffamran]

It's your opinion vs everyone else's. No need for hostility

Provoking people is also a bad idea, so stop it, you two.

Let's get back on topic...

 

[Nu~]

Pretty sure falco will be viable. Not to mention, void reflector will make it very hard to zone him out with projectiles.
He has a great combo game, but his main problem is that he lacks mobility, leading to a more defensive playstyle. He's definitely solid and well balanced.

 

[Ffamran]

Pretty sure falco will be viable. Especially If mega man (or other characters that rely heavily on keeping opponents out with projectiles) become huge threats in the meta.
He has a great combo game, but his main problem is that he lacks mobility, leading to a more defensive playstyle. He's definitely solid and well balanced.

I just posted this in the Falco Social - yes, it's alive, so shut up. *sound of wind and tumbleweed tumbling*

So, ZeRo and Shofu have backed up and talked about Falco. Both of them say Falco is a character that wins by skill and he's not bad, but more methodical than say, Sonic who can run circles around you and do things on the fly, Captain Falcon who to me is an all or nothing fighter, and Link who's a master of walling out people with projectiles and being able to switch from ranged to close combat whenever. Falco is more like Marth, Lucina, Kirby, Ganondorf, and maybe Samus, Dr. Mario, Mario, Ike, Zelda, and Greninja who are more fundamentals based characters who don't abuse or exploit much and rely more on being able to stay calm during combat and punishing heavily which allows them to control the pace of the battle since you don't know how they will counter you. I would even add a defensive, punisher-style Little Mac to this which makes sense since there's two styles of boxing: counterpuncher - self-explanatory - or an out-boxer who spaces well and just doesn't let you get close to him and hit him. Simply put, they play smart to win.

Then again, if you play smart like ZeRo with his Diddy, then you can pretty much win or have an easier time against everyone. It's the mastery of fundamentals and those characters require a mastery of fundamentals.

The videos are in the video thread, but they're here. ZeRo's thoughts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jj-c2nDn0s.

Shofu's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpmox-j2_Kc.

Also, it feels good to hear ZeRo and Shofu talk about Falco. I remember Keitaro talking about him too, but it was during a live match as a commentator, so he couldn't just go on a monologue about Falco and ignore the match.

 

[Tagxy]

The hilarious thing about Quick Attack is that no ones even using it to its full potential. Everyone I know, ESAM included, is more comfortable with tap jump off which greatly hinders its use. Here's an excerpt from a post I finally decided to start writing a few days ago about broken nonsense pikachu has no ones realized yet.

Basic Info
-------
-------
-------
-------
*Quick Attack Can be Jump cancelled Turn tap jump on

*Quick Attack
Jump cancelled quick attacks may sound obvious, yet I havent seen any pikachu take this to heart. Many who use pikachu still play with tap jump off. Quick Attack is a massive compendium of anti-commitment and reaction based punishment. Whether youre running, dashing, jumping, shielding; you can quick attack at any time to escape your commitment (take this to heart).

In particular,quick attack out of shield is very powerful. It can turn even the safest moves in the game into something that can be punished, and turn around some of the worst situations.

Additionally note that QA is at its best when used close to the ground and used among other grounded options (like crouching). The animation on the ground isnt as obvious as well. Its less likely to be useful against an opponent in full neutral or obvious qa situations, find those moments when it is less expected.

Its the closest thing to this games version of shine or shuttle loop OOS.