Character Competitive Impressions

[Pazzo.]

Well yeah, that's what it means for something to be lagless. The goal isn't to punish it, it's just to avoid damage. He can't do it that often due to the way the Monado Cooldowns work.

If I saw it coming I'd just run backwards, assuming I wasn't in the corner. If I was cornered I'd probably either grab ledge or shield.

Alternatively you could jump and challenge him in the air instead, though that's a bit riskier.

It doesn't matter if you're in hitstun from a F-Air.

 

[Artryuu]

"If I saw it coming I'd just run backwards, assuming I wasn't in the corner. If I was cornered I'd probably either grab ledge or shield."

In that case we just cancel to grab you, Brings mindgames and I really don't suggest stalling it cause sometimes I just "pretend" I'll go for malc but don't really go for it. You can't be sure every shulk nails the malc tho. You have to really know the technique to know when it will activate and when it will not. It is hard to punish but if shulk does his bair/or any aerial midair assuming he didn't space well (and hasn't landed to cancel art) you can perfect shield and grab him in air. And challenging his aerials is tough.

 

[FullMoon]

So, with the right spacing Shifting Shuriken can combo into itself.

This custom is so silly.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Soooo heavies come in two flavors? Great disadvantage but meh to bad advantage or amazing advantage and terrible terrible terrible disadvantage?

Not quite. Bowser's advantaged state isn't great and he's pretty lousy in disadvantaged too. His neutral game is pretty strong for a character of his size though.

 

[Terotrous]

It doesn't matter if you're in hitstun from a F-Air.

Shulk has to activate the monado arte quite some time before landing, so you get a fair amount of advance warning. It's not like he can hit you and THEN set up the cancel, it has to be done preemptively. That's what holds it back from being bonkers. It's still good corner pressure and it will probably work sometimes, but it's not quite as flexible as L-Cancelling was.

In that case we just cancel to grab you

Shulk's grab range is extremely short, you can only grab me if I shield your aerial at point blank range (and since Shulk's aerials have large range, you often may not deep enough to be able to grab). If I back off to outside of your Ftilt range, there's nothing you can cancel to upon landing that will hit. You can attempt to dash after me, of course, but you've lost the value of the cancel at this point.

And challenging his aerials is tough.

Yeah, that's why I said it was a riskier option. Still doable, but you're going to take some hits.


Incidentally, your gifs lag the bejeezus out of my browser.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Oh so that's why my computer took like 5 minutes just to load this page.

 

[MezzoMe]

So, with the right spacing Shifting Shuriken can combo into itself.

This custom is so silly.

I think that it happened because he crouch cancelled the first hit.

 

[Cassio]

Here come's my "drop"

I honestly don't think Pika's MU spread is that great, there just seems to be too many match ups in the game which Pika goes evenish with at best / (imo) could lose that spread throughout the entire viable spectrum of the cast, and these are without customs. The only match up out of the these I have not personally seen played out by high/top level players is Luigi and G&W (*sic* SO MID LEVEL SHAYA). And then there's the many heavy characters in the game that Pika apparently doesn't like getting hit by above 50% and the "match shake down" from other characters obtaining customs.



Pikachu doesn't go even/beat Diddy (maybe 45:55) or Sheik, tournament results and player adaptions have genuinely shut down Pika by those two character's mains perspectives. I could probably budge on Mega, DK, Villager, Yoshi (+GreenMan) but not really seeing a solid avenue for Pikachu to argue winning match ups against the rest more than 55:45.

Kind of sort of. I think this oversimplifies things. The real explanation goes hand in hand with pikachu's "glass cannon" effect. Without making a direct comparison to tier position or their place in the metagame, fox from melee becomes the best comparison. Fox felt every hit very hard, yet he was very capable at avoiding hits and messing up his opponent when played on a certain level. Pikachu's the same, he's extremely capable of avoiding a hit and has a powerful offense, but it also require's him to be consistently mindful and avoid autopilot.

This distinguishes MUs from difficult and "difficult". Many of the characters I see listed are "difficult" for pikachu, theyre disproportionately harder when we assume hes going to play sub-optimal. This can make MU's more tense then normal since other characters have more leeway in their characters optimal play in this regard. A good MU comparison is Sheik vs Fox in melee (theres a few characters in that sheik group), Fox has a solid 60:40 advantage or greater but sheik is able to capitalize well on Fox's mistakes. Many of these characters listed lose solidly in neutral but may find that moment pikachu lightens up on his guard. I think its pretty cool, since even if pikachu wins a MU it forces him to play well and gives characters a chance to cause upsets. But if getting disgustingly early kills were a metric for character strength sign up ganon for top tier . Just joking, I dont think there's an issue with the opinion, but based on the opinions strength preferably Id like to see more details then are being provided, my main concern is that some of the previous details that were mentioned had to be corrected.

I guess a Iist. Even though the whole list is opinion and subject to change, a * after means its one Im more shaky on.

First I thought of pikachus hardest MUs.

1:
2:


Then his competitive MUs
******

Im less certain about all 6 of these, take it with a bigger grain of salt, but they seem to have good tools that go beyond "lol early kill move" that make pika have to work. Pretty sure there's a gap between these characters and the rest in terms of their ability to compete pika.

After I looked at the remaining characters and thought about who could best cheese an early KO him or generally give him a "difficult" MU (before I get in trouble, this doesnt make the character cheesy just the tactic).

*

The Rest

1:*
2:
3:*

"The Rest" arent necessarily worse against pika then "difficult" theyre just more honest in how they acquire wins, especially at the top. I guess I should make a note on Greninja, Ive played Scizzor (offline) and Norcal Sean (online) and personally didnt think the MU was anything too special, I found greninja had the same issue as other characters of hitting pikachu on the ground while having a superior SH aerial game. But maybe Im wrong. The bottom I feel have little in terms of redemption in fighting pika, but theres still the "early rage kill hit" factor.

Regarding yoshi, Jab > usmash is escapable and not a true combo.

 

[FullMoon]

The only attack Greninja really struggles to hit Pikachu with is F-Air. The other moves all have good hitboxes or disjoints to help him hit Pikachu with more ease. Plus, Greninja is one of the few characters that can give Pikachu trouble offstage, since being hit with Hydro Pump during Quick Attack will send Pikachu up and leave him completely helpless, use of Hydro Pump on-stage can also mess with Pikachu's QA shenanigans pretty badly. Also, Pikachu can have trouble hitting Greninja with aerials as well, especially if he's crouching, and a missed aerial could easily result in punishment.

So I'd still say Greninja has an advantage, I've gone against a good number of Pikachu and I never really struggled with them.

 

[Cook]

Anyone else think DDD is very underrated?

 

[Cassio]

Keep in mind I think pika will stand out from the rest of the cast based on the strength of his ground game, if you look at my list of hardest MUs that becomes a bit evident. Im less familiar with greninja then other characters, but personally the first thing I want to know is if pikachu insists on staying on the ground what does greninja do? I want to know his options for winning neutral.

For comparison lets look at a character like falco. He has a slow run speed but still has pretty solid burst movement with his dash attack and side b. His dtilt has bonkers length (the animation is deceptively short, it convincingly outranges pikachus dtilt) and his jab and ftilt are only barely shorter. His SH aerials are powerful along the ground, but they do tend to lose head to head (SH aerial vs SH aerial) against pika which is why pikachu is still fine in this MU. Add his strong combo game and you have a formidable MU.

 

[Nobie]

Kind of sort of. I think this oversimplifies things. The real explanation goes hand in hand with pikachu's "glass cannon" effect. Without making a direct comparison to tier position or their place in the metagame, fox from melee becomes the best comparison. Fox felt every hit very hard, yet he was very capable at avoiding hits and messing up his opponent when played on a certain level. Pikachu's the same, he's extremely capable of avoiding a hit and has a powerful offense, but it also require's him to be consistently mindful and avoid autopilot.

This distinguishes MUs from difficult and "difficult". Many of the characters I see listed are "difficult" for pikachu, theyre disproportionately harder when we assume hes going to play sub-optimal. This can make MU's more tense then normal since other characters have more leeway in their characters optimal play in this regard. A good MU comparison is Sheik vs Fox in melee (theres a few characters in that sheik group), Fox has a solid 60:40 advantage or greater but sheik is able to capitalize well on Fox's mistakes. Many of these characters listed lose solidly in neutral but may find that moment pikachu lightens up on his guard. I think its pretty cool, since even if pikachu wins a MU it forces him to play well and gives characters a chance to cause upsets. But if getting disgustingly early kills were a metric for character strength sign up ganon for top tier . Just joking, I dont think there's an issue with the opinion, but based on the opinions strength preferably Id like to see more details then are being provided, my main concern is that some of the previous details that were mentioned had to be corrected.

I guess a Iist. Even though the whole list is opinion and subject to change, a * after means its one Im more shaky on.

First I thought of pikachus hardest MUs.

1:
2:


Then his competitive MUs
******

Im less certain about all 6 of these, take it with a bigger grain of salt, but they seem to have good tools that go beyond "lol early kill move" that make pika have to work. Pretty sure there's a gap between these characters and the rest in terms of their ability to compete pika.

After I looked at the remaining characters and thought about who could best cheese an early KO him or generally give him a "difficult" MU (before I get in trouble, this doesnt make the character cheesy just the tactic).

*

The Rest

1:*
2:
3:*

"The Rest" arent necessarily worse against pika then "difficult" theyre just more honest in how they acquire wins, especially at the top. I guess I should make a note on Greninja, Ive played Scizzor (offline) and Norcal Sean (online) and personally didnt think the MU was anything too special, I found greninja had the same issue as other characters of hitting pikachu on the ground while having a superior SH aerial game. But maybe Im wrong. The bottom I feel have little in terms of redemption in fighting pika, but theres still the "early rage kill hit" factor.

Regarding yoshi, Jab > usmash is escapable and not a true combo.

You're gonna have to explain why Lucina is a competitive matchup but Marth isn't as much.

 

[Antonykun]

You're gonna have to explain why Lucina is a competitive matchup but Marth isn't as much.

I think it's more they are both competitive but Marth gets fraudulent KOs with tippers.

 

[FullMoon]

Keep in mind I think pika will stand out from the rest of the cast based on the strength of his ground game, if you look at my list of hardest MUs that becomes a bit evident. Im less familiar with greninja then other characters, but personally the first thing I want to know is if pikachu insists on staying on the ground what does greninja do? I want to know his options for winning neutral.

For comparison lets look at a character like falco. He has a slow run speed but still has pretty solid burst movement with his dash attack and side b. His dtilt has bonkers length (the animation is deceptively short, it convincingly outranges pikachus dtilt) and his jab and ftilt are only barely shorter. His SH aerials are powerful along the ground, but they do tend to lose head to head (SH aerial vs SH aerial) against pika which is why pikachu is still solid in this MU. Add his strong combo game and you have a formidable MU.

Greninja has an amazing dash grab, for starters. It's just as fast as MK's and has a lot of range behind it, plus most of Greninja's attacks outranges Pika's.

 

[Nobie]

I think it's more they are both competitive but Marth gets fraudulent KOs with tippers.

But he's saying that Lucina is better vs. Pikachu than Marth is, unless I misread his post.

The only thing that I could see being behind his reasoning is the idea that tippers with Marth are so unlikely vs. Pikachu that they become a non-issue, and Lucina's balanced Falchion ends up working better.

 

[Cassio]

@ FullMoon I dont think greninja loses badly or anything and is still capable of winning. Greninja does have a great dash grab but I was hoping for a bit more. And most of greninjas range is in the air.

You're gonna have to explain why Lucina is a competitive matchup but Marth isn't as much.

Marth could do better, its hard for me to tell. I think Marcina has some great strengths in this MU, but Lucina also has some of the better (aka more reliable) early KO options on pika. For that alone she could be in the "difficult" MUs. Attached to a character that makes pika work hard in neutral and I feel she does a bit better.

 

[Unknownkid]

Fair enough, you brought a good point as to why you don't use Gale Strike, but that still doesn't justify the poor reach of Shuriken of Light (as opposed to most projectiles that cover at least 1/2 of the stage whereas SoL only does 1/4) and it barely disrupts at all. I've tried pulling off SoL and I've noticed that the opponent has way easier time shrugging it off than a close range Gale Strike that gives you the opportunity to do an Up-Air.

Blade Counter possesses a counter damage multiplier of approx. 1.25 with a decent enough speed to pull it off as opposed to Shulk that's slower in his counter attack (and you're likelier to miss Shulk's Vision attack than Blade Counter). Sure, it's nothing special to people who are already sporting Marth and such, but it's viable. I might go for Power Thrust, but I'm afraid that a lack of counter-game is counterintuitive (pun intended) in regards to my playstyle.

I'm just referring to it as a "poorman's fusion dance" because I'm describing my set in a self-deprecating manner. That said, I do treat my Mii Swordfighter as a composite character because while it has its own *unique attacks* it still possesses moves based off already-established Smash characters.

Well, the more power to you mate. Have fun running Swordfighter

Don't worry bro. I use all the moves and experiment different ways to use them against my brothers, friends, and in small tournaments. I was really into Gale Strike (eat most projectiles/attacks -except for Lasers, Full Charge Shots and Needles?!, reflect doesn't anything against you unless they are in your face, and send the opponent upwards) but I couldn't use the windbox to my favor and the lag wasn't helping so I drop it from my main set. If your opponent is shrugging off SoL, you are using it too close. It does the most damage and flinches the most at max range.

I doubt SF Counter is better than Shulk's especially with the Forward version.

What was the main argument for it again? Something something "why can Mii Fighters go with customs but other characters not" ?

Hmm.. pretty much. It was "Mii Fighters has their "customs" unlock from the beginning but does Palutena. However, you need Custom ON to use Custom Palutena. Since majority of players see Mii Fighers other sets as Custom Moves, they can only use their "default set" aka 1111 set."

In regards to Swordfighter's Power Thrust, I've noticed that it has a sweetspot that enables it to be a kill move at higher percentages but that it's kind of odd in terms of positioning, especially when compared to its closest equivalent, Falcon Kick.

Falcon Kick starts off strong and weakens as it travels. If you hit with the beginning of Falcon Kick, it's more likely to KO, but it doesn't matter where Captain Falcon is as long as you hit the opponent during start-up.

Not so with Power Thrust. If you stand too close, you go straight through and deal no damage. If you stand a bit further, you'll hit the opponent but not for a lot. If you stand too far away though, you also don't get maximum knockback on the move. Instead, you have to be roughly 2 to 2.5 Swordfighter-widths away from the opponent to actually get Power Thrust to KO. It's so bizarrely precise.

Yep! Power Thrust is weird among other times. Like Power Thrust can eat weak projectiles but if you timing it off (too early or too late) you will clash with it instead.
For Example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I7RcF0qB98
In 1:08 the SF beats it but at 2:55 and 4:56 it clashes.
The SwordFighter is funky as it is - why does he need more weird Hitboxes.

Why do most tiers have Ike so low? I mean, seriously, he can combo and he's a heavyweight like Ganondorf! His combo ability is freaking absurd! @san., your Ike is freaking amazing. I mean even though it's online, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siN2YWr_4ZI.

Geez! Someone please change the title to "How to get bodied by San the Ike Man".

 

[Conda]

Oh boy did I miss a lot. So much irl work going on. Got a minor concussion but can't afford to not show up to work. That's life Can't wait to catch up on this thread through.

 

[Terotrous]

Geez! Someone please change the title to "How to get bodied by San the Ike Man".

Blue Ike really needs to throw out some counters to keep San honest. He's just hitting all kinds of buttons, most of which aren't true combos, and not being challenged for them at all.

Counter is like this game's equivalent of Wakeup Dragon Punch. Even if it doesn't work, you have to send the message that you're willing to do it so the opponent is more wary in their pressure.


The sequence at 4m10s is totally sick though. Get rekt blue Ike.

 

[FullMoon]

@ FullMoon I dont think greninja loses badly or anything and is still capable of winning. Greninja does have a great dash grab but I was hoping for a bit more. And most of greninjas range is in the air.

The thing is, you can't really make an assumption based solely on their ground game because not expecting them to jump and throw an aerial is silly. Greninja can F-Air Pikachu which is safe on shield, N-Air can also push shields away enough that Pikachu can't grab Greninja either. On the ground Greninja has his dash grab, shurikens that are faster than Thunder Jolt and fully charged ones that just destroy them and Greninja has usually plenty of time to charge a shuriken unless Pikachu is too close.

Just Greninja's dash grab is enough to cause Pikachu trouble in the ground when you combine it with Greninja's overall mobility, which is another thing he has over Pikachu. Greninja also has a fast jab and I believe his dash attack is safe on shield if spaced well. Shurikens are also important.

Greninja has a lot of things that can give Pika trouble, disjoints, fast grab, low profile, mobility, a move that can seriously screw up with his recovery, a fast projectile of his own and good KO power. Pikachu doesn't lose badly to him or anything, but I do believe Greninja has an edge in the MU.

 

[Cassio]

I acknowledge Greninja has an edge air to air, but he still has to do something thatll force pika off the ground consistently and SH aerials arent going to force him to shield. Shurikens there are good, but situational since QA can punish projectiles from a distance. I dont really disagree with your character strengths, but you sort of passed quickly over or were vague on ground options which is primarily what I wanted more information on since its an important aspect of this MU. For instance, how does Greninja have better mobility on the ground then pika? That would surprise me greatly. Also in my experience dash attack is not a good grounded option, at least in this MU but maybe you could explain that too.

 

[FullMoon]

I didn't mean specifically on the ground, I meant Greninja had better mobility in a general way, a contender for best mobility in the game considering the only category he isn't at least 6th (7th?) at is air desaceleration I believe. Again, dash grab does wonders to get Pikachu in the air and that's pretty much all Greninja needs to do it, the moment the opponent leaves themselves open they're likely getting dash grabbed and Pikachu is no exception. A grounded Pikachu doesn't really have much options himself (F-Smash has some start-up, Up-Smash, Dash Attack and Down-Smash both have exploitable end lag, and Greninja can punish all his tilts on shield with jab except maybe for d-tilt, Thunder Jolt gets cancelled by shurikens, leaving pretty much only QA as a safe option and even that might have it's issues) so unless Pikachu gets to the air he can't get to Greninja safely either.

If we assume Greninja and Pikachu are going to stay at the ground, then it's most likely that it's going to be a stalemate since one can't approach the other safely without at least jumping, and Greninja can deny most of Pikachu's options with a spaced F-Air. I don't understand why you're so focused on ground combat considering Greninja and Pikachu are characters that tend to jump a lot from what I've experienced.

Greninja's dash attack is good for catching rolls and can combo into F-Air, I'm not sure if it's safe on shield if spaced correctly though, I would need to test this out and right now I must leave for college

 

[mimgrim]

For instance, how does Greninja have better mobility on the ground then pika? That would surprise me greatly.

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/

^That's a general thing for running and walking.

I'm not sure on Perfect Pivot stuff but I'm also not convinced on how useful that stuff is in the long run.

Ofc Pikachu has QA but Greninja also has Hydropump. On the surface it seems like Greninja has, overall, better ground mobility.

So yeah.

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ FullMoon I dont think greninja loses badly or anything and is still capable of winning. Greninja does have a great dash grab but I was hoping for a bit more. And most of greninjas range is in the air.

Marth could do better, its hard for me to tell. I think Marcina has some great strengths in this MU, but Lucina also has some of the better (aka more reliable) early KO options on pika. For that alone she could be in the "difficult" MUs. Attached to a character that makes pika work hard in neutral and I feel she does a bit better.

What you said makes zero sense.

 

[Shaya]

Anyone else think DDD is very underrated?

Low tier in this game still denotes likely close to even match ups, even advantageous ones with half the cast or more.

What you said makes zero sense.

Fsmash OoS or "yolo" punishes for her are a lot more of a real factor to the match up because Pika dies to that thing below 100% when it connects usually.
It's a consistency argument that... Pika is one of the few where it could come out that way, although you'd still be kinda insane not to use Marth in the long run.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So,,,pika should stop running into random f-smash then.

Like seriously there is no reason to ever. Pika bodies Lucy.

 

[Antonykun]

What you said makes zero sense.

Uhh let me see if I can add to this. Lucina's attacks kill at around 15% earlier than non tippered Marth which isn't much.
Lucina optimally plays at tipper range anyways sooooo...
The kicker is that pikachu is so godforsaken fast and small that landing tippers will rarely happen if ever.
It could possible the only time Lucina beats Marth in anything
... @ Shaya ...You 's me...

 

[Shaya]

So,,,pika should stop running into random f-smash then.

Like seriously there is no reason to ever. Pika bodies Lucy.

Eh, power shields and crouching dodges are still a thing. The move completely out prioritising / ranging Pika has it's benefits.
But it's just a weighing up of factors that impact tournament sets but not necessarily match ups.
Like, getting up thrown by Marth/Lucina; usually once that situation is a thing, those two characters legitimately have the best/safest kill option in every match up and it happens, time and time again (like, even Ness be playing tip-toe if you're both at 120-130%). It's going to be very hard to quantify that in discussions though, it's always incidental; although it definitively decides tournament matches/sets.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why would Pika need to fear that situation more so then say Captain Falcon? Pika is lighter with better aerial movement speed and has QA.

It's a favorable position for Marcina, but its like a 6/4 situation. Not 8/2 or worse like for other chars they can trap.

 

[Tagxy]

Maybe at a theoretical level marth does better, but in the case where Pikachu gets hit by fsmash it's painful. It happens, just like getting wafted or up b staired by Zelda. Pikachu is an offensive oriented character, and having to navigate the entire length of a sword instead of just the tip for risk of getting majorly owned can make the task more difficult. There's less certainty here which is why I have the * but it's what I think atm .

 

[Emblem Lord]

Like....I'm not even past the point where Lucina hits Pika enough for f-smash to kill.

My mind literally cannot comprehend what you are saying.

Pika beats them both anyway so...like wtf?

**** it.

im done. carry on

 

[Antonykun]

Oh yeah @ Emblem Lord about Swordfighter height, I just realized that i didn't mention that it was for Custom Moveset Project that allows for a standardized height.

 

[Balgorxz]

for the people saying jiggly has bad customs, pound blitz into leaping rest is a true combo at all % and kills extremely early.

 

[19_]

Shockwave is live guys, if anyone is interested some customs action.

 

[Nu~]

Shockwave is live guys, if anyone is interested some customs action.

Hopefully we see a Pac this time...finding a pac in a tourney is as rare and amazing as finding a diamond in your backyard.

 

[Antonykun]

Hopefully we see a Pac this time...finding a pac in a tourney is as rare and amazing as finding a diamond in your backyard.

Finding a Mii not name @Jigglymaster is even rarer.
Boldish Statement: Swordfighter is one of the hardest characters in Smash 4 to learn.

 

[Djent]

Nah, Impish. Swordfighter doesn't need SpA.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Finding a Mii not name @Jigglymaster is even rarer.
Boldish Statement: Swordfighter is one of the hardest characters in Smash 4 to learn.

id argue peach or zelda.

 

[Antonykun]

Nah, Impish. Swordfighter doesn't need SpA.

I literally stood for a second all like "WTF is he talking about?" Cheeky Man

id argue peach or zelda.

I'd put them there as well.
My argument for Swordfighter is that they thrive off creating traps off their aerials but their deacceleration is so bad you need to make sure you don't fling yourself away from your own traps.
Their neutral is super wonky with their laggy normals meaning that they have to rely on SoL, which is a wonky projectile, Reversal Slash, which is not always useful, and Power Thrust, which is an aberration.
There's also the fact that their disadvantage is like Ike's where it's godawful until you can hit them with D-air.
Man, if you get over that though, you get a monster who hits WAY harder than what I originally gave them credit for when I first mained them.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I don't like to think there's a bottom tier there, either way.
Captain Falcon is broken, hence Ganondorf is broken.
This is the logical times we live in.

Most of the cast fears Ganon (for every frame of reaction speed you "take away" from a player, I think you effectively double the fear necessary from 15 frames onwards). This is a heavily buffed version of Brawl Ganondorf without his weaknesses in recovery, suicide moves working against him and being cg'd to death by everyone chipping away at his exterior. When you get hit by an up smash at 60%, you die; I don't think people appreciate enough where Snake's up tilt now resides with twice it's kill power (and about half of it's end lag). There's so much respect one has to give to a Ganondorf shielding due to his extensively good array of punishment options that he kinda gets away with just walking in against most of the cast.

I couldn't have said this better myself.

And your placement of Ganon in mid is about correct.

Dark Fists is a terrible OOS option...if you're using this move out of shield, you evidently don't understand what Super Armor is for.

I think you're wrong here @A2ZOMG

First, there are many instances where dark fists can be used out of shield.

The superarmor also has a hitbox. Although that first hitbox is slow at 15 frames, you can simply use the super armour as a replacement for shield, and use the move as an 'out of superarmour attack'.

This legitimately works. And kills.