Character Competitive Impressions

[Jaguar360]

so does zeldas dtilt combo into fair at 70+ %?
testing it in training vs shulk and it seems to work and even kill at 85 or so if sweetspotted
does zelda have any notable dtilt setups? cause nair is working too

D-tilt to u-air works on Mario at about 110%. Not sure if it's di-able or not, but it creates a mixup with f-air either way. D-tilt is good.

Also can we please have a serious conversation about Zelda where we don't immediately brush her aside? While she is likely still low or bottom tier, she has notable traits that allow her to compete at a high level.

Zelda has a crapload of kill options at varying percents, which aren't even hard to get and she is capable of killing early. Farore's Wind is easily the most dangerous, being able to be done out of shield, from short hop n-air, or to punish whiffed attacks from afar with the second hit. While proper DI can prevent the elevator from killing at the absurd percentages, (like killing Sheik at 58% from center stage with no rage on 3DS) it's quite powerful either way. The F-smash fix makes it a viable kill option and the recent U-smash buff gives her another kill option out of shield and out of dash. D-smash and F-tilt are nice, quick and somewhat safe kiill moves are her. D-tilt and D-throw both combo into u-air (without DI at least) and set up into Lightning Kicks. Even her b-throw can be used to kill if things get rough. While it may seem trivial, having a meteor on all hitboxes of her d-air also deserves a mention.

Kill options are nice and all, but what about her neutral? Tbh, it's not that bad, though still somewhat mediocre I guess. She can space with f-tilt, d-tilt and jab, has Naryu's Love to cover rolls and reflect projectiles and U-tilt and angled F-tilt to anti-air. Phantom Slash is also nice for giving Zelda some protection and for baiting opponents into doing something to avoid it and punishing accordingly (usually with Farore's, Din's Fire or grab depending on the situation). Her mediocre movement speed and lack of quick moves outside of D-tilt can make the neutral difficult against many characters though, Sonic, Sheik, and Pikachu in particular. Unsafe aerials also limits her a bit.

Zelda has fairly proficient at edgeguarding and covering landings. As mentioned before, D-air is a great spike to have and offstage LKs are a death sentence if they land. Her great recovery also her to go deep if necessary. Din's and Phantom allow her to edgeguard onstage (and off in the case of Phantom), gimping if they land or forcing an air dodge or high recovery if not.

What about results then? Recently, @Ven managed to get 3rd place at an offline tournament w/ customs in Vegas with solo Zelda (without using customs himself), losing against two Sonic mains in Winners and Losers Finals. In the online tournament world, while not quite as "legit" I guess, Ven, @ Macchiato and @GingerGaymer have also had high placings with Zelda. Nairo did well with Zelda earlier on in the game's life as well. While the results are not particularly impressive they hopefully show that she is not unviable at least.

This is the stream with Ven's recent tournament.
http://www.twitch.tv/m/935171
3:09:56 Vs. Bear (Megaman)
4:07:38 Vs. Xero (Villager/Rosalina)
5:03:37 Vs. Vash (Little Mac)
5:34:40 Vs. Kinzer (Sonic)
5:51:10 Vs. Gabe (Sonic)

So yeah, can we not just ignore Zelda and the other supposed bottom tiers in this game? Every character has something to offer.

 

[Macchiato]

Don't forget Zelda has Falling Nair to Elevator and SHFF Nair to Usmash

Also I believe Zelda is Mid Tier

 

[PUK]

I believe she needs more buff. So let's stop pretend she's viable.

 

[Emblem Lord]

They don't have disjoint at all. None of ryu moves are fully disjointed lol

When I can dsmash a bomb at max range and not get blown up, that tells me there is a disjoint.

Or the tip of his limb is invincible which is possible. I havent looked at his data dump. Either way his hitboxes are big and they linger for Fair and Nair for sure.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Soo, any character that needs a buff? I think Palutena could use some help with her framedata. Forward Tilt with a reduced end lag could help her a lot.

 

[Big-Cat]

Why do you people want Marcina to have grab reward?

Do you want Roy to not matter? Also why do you ask for auto cancel fair? Do you mean a real autocancel meaning the move can cancel into regular land frames while its STILL active? Cuz Marth has that in Brawl with nair and you guessed it, it was one of the main reasons he invalidated chars like Mario. Could not get in for ANYTHING!!

You people are asking for buffs when you dont even understand the ****ing game.

Ryu's nair is just for holding my space. It's also fast and beats alot of normals.

Of course you don't see other Ryus use it. They suck.

I suck too though. Well vs Sheik anyways.

Don't you know that people want to have NO commitment on their moves, making everyone Sheik but stronger?

That aside, I think some Marcina players haven't adjusted to a more ground oriented playstyle. Same could be said about a lot of players though.

 

[outfoxd]

Soo, any character that needs a buff? I think Palutena could use some help with her framedata. Forward Tilt with a reduced end lag could help her a lot.

Duck hunt needs a kill confirm.

Not like I'm biased or anything.

 

[Ffamran]

I wish Chaos would have pulled Link out in the matches with Keitaro. Going Bowser begged for a super sized combo food game. Zair would have given him more options to keep Falco out, not to mention the addition of frame traps and a (new) potent mid-range game. Link's zair wall can stuff more characters than Peach...

Looking at the video thumbnails, Chaos uses several characters. Sort of like Rice who does well with each of them, but he is still spreading himself thin by going Link, Bowser, I think he has a Sonic, Sheik, etc. The funny thing is that Falco struggles against disjoints, especially if they're stupidly disjointed like Link's Dair, but Keitaro also plays Link so Chaos might have been worried Keitaro would know how to fight against Link even if Keitaro didn't exactly know MU. The other funny thing is that Bowser actually does well against Falco because Bowser has range on Falco, several invincible hits like Up Smash, Down Smash, Dair, and Flying Fortress, and Bowser's much faster while running which makes keep away games for Falco harder unlike against Ganondorf. The issue still stands that nobody fights Falco, nobody really knows.

As for Lucario, keep in mind that he has hit lag every time he hits something like Ryu, but unlike Ryu where it's mostly there for the Street Fighter feels and there's probably less hit lag, Lucario's messes with how he attacks.

Emblem Lord, do you have anything on Hadouken's varying speeds? Are they useful for much?

 

[pimpimjim]

The patches in this game have been pretty tame. Its been like 90% buffs and bug fixes, and many "nerfs" actually end up increasing the utility of the move.

This ain't NRS patching, where every month they decide to completely remake the game without any warning at all, and for that we should all be very thankful. Seriously, if you want to see what bad/unjustified patching really does to a community, just watch what's going on with MKX.

false

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mostly just disruption purposes. If someone has godlike reaction speed and they react to Ryu actually gathering his chi in his hands before he launches a hadouken then the slow one might catch them off guard if say they were trying to jump in at a certain angle. They end up landing on it. Same if they tried to run up spotdodge. If they expect a slow one which would give them more time to react, a fast one might slap them in the face.

Also slow hadoukens are better for pure space control and give greater frame advantage when blocked. Fast ones are better for outright pressure.

 

[Ffamran]

Mostly just disruption purposes. If someone has godlike reaction speed and they react to Ryu actually gathering his chi in his hands before he launches a hadouken then the slow one might catch them off guard if say they were trying to jump in at a certain angle. They end up landing on it. Same if they tried to run up spotdodge. If they expect a slow one which would give them more time to react, a fast one might slap them in the face.

Also slow hadoukens are better for pure space control and give greater frame advantage when blocked. Fast ones are better for outright pressure.

I wished Ryu had his fake Hadouken as a taunt or something to psych people out. He does have the cooldown one, but that's if you try to use another Hadouken too quickly. The fake Hadouken would be great for mindgames, but it might be too great of a mindgame.

 

[⑨ball]

I wished Ryu had his fake Hadouken as a taunt or something to psych people out. He does have the cooldown one, but that's if you try to use another Hadouken too quickly. The fake Hadouken would be great for mindgames, but it might be too great of a mindgame.

Jab?

That's what he uses in (which letter are they on now?)SF4.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Meh. In Alpha 2 he has a legit fake hadouken. Even yells out "HA!!!"

He has a fake one in HDR too. Fools just react to his hand animation and get dragon punched when they jump. Funniest thing ever.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I don't remember seeing that in Street Fighter 4 though.

 

[Locke 06]

I don't remember seeing that in Street Fighter 4 though.

Hado>fadc>shoryu. Burn that meter for style points.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Oooooooooohhhhh lol. I would love some Evil Ryu custom moves for Ryu though.

 

[T-nuts]

I personally love Luigi in Smash 4's archetype of combo heavy, slow as heck, yeah many moves with random, incredible strength [misfire, fire uppercut] and super odd priority [0 on green missile...unlimited on nair]. He's awkward to use and play against...he's Luigi. Hardly anything with him is right down the middle for a middle weight, everything is usually gravitated towards a baseline for mid weights almost. With Luigi? Go BIG or go home.

But, for the 2nd part of my post, why do I keep walking into "Luigi needs nerfs" posts, I still do not get. Did people not see how hard Luigi can be camped out at CEO vs Samus? Yes, Larry was unfamiliar with the matchup and Luigi vs Samus may be a hair in Luigi's favor, but it still shows a talent like Esam or any top player is going to get better at camping out Luigi as the metagame goes. Why people don't camp Luigi harder is beyond me. But on the other side of the coin, Luigi can outcamp a lot of characters himself, surprisingly. I went to a tournament not long ago, and as a new style and experiment instead of just charging in with Luigi like I usually do, I played safe, and my gameplay stuck of 90% fair and fireball with a nair or grab if they got close. That's it. And it worked fairly well, against select characters. Versing Diddy and Kirby - two characters Luigi definitely has an advantage on 60:40, my opponent never made it close. Luigi outrange and out camped Kirby [resulting in a very vocal salty player...] and Diddy was unable to get close either when fireball neutralized banana. Oh the destruction when Luigi got a nanner in his hands...Sheik tier. But when I versed Lucas and ROB? I got killed. They outcamped Luigi hard, Luigi just cannot get past PK fire when does splash damage if it clanks with fireball against Luigi, along with stick and magnet to heal or launch right back. And ROB? Luigi cannot get near with gyro and beam attacking him along with well placed nairs. Granted fireball is nice against gyro...still not a good matchup. As the metagame progresses, characters like Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, they are faster and will progress more. Characters like Luigi, the oddity in top tier for being the only slow character, will require a secondary and will not be able to do it on his own. Rosalina isn't super fast but she's like playing 2 characters and has amazing customs so she's a special case. Tl;dr: Luigi doesn't need nerfs, again, camp him out, he will rely on a secondary more and more as time progresses. Solo Luigi will be a thing of the past, but Luigi will remain a high tier at least due to choice strong top tier matchups and incredible frame data. And a general point to close off, the last patch did it right. It buffed the low tiers like Charizard, Falco, Marth to mid tier status and left the top tiers sides Diddy alone. It is ALWAYS a better choice to buff lower tiers than nerf top tiers. Personally the only thing needed a nerf is Sheik's neutral and Roy's f smash...

Agreed, luigi struggles against characters that can force him to approach and likely needs a secondary more than the other top tiers if you want to compete at the highest level. My experience with smash 4 is still a bit limited... which characters are best for countering zoning type characters in general? Do you run with another zoning type fighter and try to win the ranged battle? Or do you use a quick, rushdown character that has an easier time getting in on them?

Also, who do you guys think top level luigis need to run as their secondaries? Larry Lurr did pretty well at CEO with that fox/luigi combo (though luigi is the secondary in that case...)

 

[hypersonicJD]

You can use Reflector characters that can eat the zoning characters proyectiles like dinner. Fox, Falco, Ness, Lucas, R.O.B are good options. Fox and Falco have their reflector. Ness and Lucas have their PSI Magnets and their Forward Smashes. And R.O.B has his Side Smash (the move where he just keeps going ape**** with his arms). Also Villager is a really good option with his pocket.

 

[Radical Larry]

What about his disjointed hard utilt?

Sorry about the late reply, but I actually can hit the Hard U-Tilt with Link's N-Air; you have to go a bit above and more horizontally against him, aka, SH N-Air.

Oh, speaking about N-Air for Link, did you know you can actually tech chase with its late hits or sour hits? All you have to do is N-Air > Roll the opponent's direction > Read where the opponent is going > Use F-Tilt/F-Smash/Dash/Spin Attack/D-Smash. I use this all the time, and it actually works and helps me get those easy 60% early setups to KOs.

You can use Reflector characters that can eat the zoning characters proyectiles like dinner. Fox, Falco, Ness, Lucas, R.O.B are good options. Fox and Falco have their reflector. Ness and Lucas have their PSI Magnets and their Forward Smashes. And R.O.B has his Side Smash (the move where he just keeps going ape**** with his arms). Also Villager is a really good option with his pocket.

Mewtwo is the best option of them all; his Confusion reflector is the fastest in the game.

R.O.B. is a very poor choice as a reflector, because his Side Spec has bad end lag, slow speed and...well, it's bad to use against opponents going from above, below or disjoint. He's got the worst reflector, IMO, in the game, beating the Pits. The attack is very, very unsafe if you think about it. Plus, you have to be on point with it to actually reflect; you can't reflect certain projectiles angling the attack up and down, from how I play.

 

[hypersonicJD]

But he has a **** ton of priority on the attack. R.O.B is by far the cheapest character in the game for me ._. Stupid Robot.

 

[Zelder]

R.O.B.? The Robot? The cheapest character in the game?

Hrm.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Soo, any character that needs a buff? I think Palutena could use some help with her framedata. Forward Tilt with a reduced end lag could help her a lot.

That'd be nice I guess but it wouldn't help much. Her most crippling flaw is that, without Super Speed or Lightweight, she really struggles to kill without a hard read. All she needs is something that's fast, safe-ish, and powerful or a kill confirm at reasonable %s without rage (Jab1>U-tilt is actually pretty decent with rage). She'd probably be fine if she could just combo D-throw into U-air at kill % even with DI.

 

[hypersonicJD]

That is a good idea. But I think her Forward and Down Smashes are just stupid. When she does them, she pulls the opponent away. Leading to almost no follow-ups. They should get rid of that and make her instead suck his oppopents up to her while she is charging the attacks. That could make it more effective.

 

[Loota]

His recovery is great but it's predictable and if you land on stage (whether intentionally or by accident), it has so much ending lag that most opponents can pretty much take their pick with a punish.

He doesn't suffer that lag if he hits the ground before the "flying" animation ends. His recovery is so flexible with overall distance/path and dair stalls, coupled with his general floatiness, that you shouldn't ever be put into a situation where you have to land with lag while your opponent is ready to punish you for it.

if you want to figure out why is essentially unviable play the matchup
(no combos after like 60%, low damage output from combos, terrible neutral, low mobility, etc)

No, I've played that matchup more than anything else and find it quite even, leaning only slightly to Falcon's side for a -1.

I find all your listed points wrong too: he has a lot of combos (especially on Falcon but who doesn't) and while he loses some of his followups at high aura, his damage output per hit is already respectable at 70-80% to compensate more than enough. Him having a terrible neutral has already gotten old, he's got a load of reliable moves (nair, fair, ftilt, dtilt, DA, AS and FP) with solid followups from a lot of them. His neutral is only a bit unrewarding at low aura but, unsuprisingly, gets more rewarding and safer the more damage he has taken and more than evens out the time he has to spend at low aura (Lucario's survivability is really good). He does have some low mobility stats but people often forget his great foxtrot and b-reversals with AS, which have really good synergy with his other moves in neutral.

Bad Lucarios will get badly wrecked by him though, that's probably the matchup I hear random Lucarios having the most trouble with.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

You can use Reflector characters that can eat the zoning characters proyectiles like dinner. Fox, Falco, Ness, Lucas, R.O.B are good options. Fox and Falco have their reflector. Ness and Lucas have their PSI Magnets and their Forward Smashes. And R.O.B has his Side Smash (the move where he just keeps going ape**** with his arms). Also Villager is a really good option with his pocket.

Not only is that move not ROB's side smash (it's side special) but it's also literally the worst, most easily punished reflector in the game. The notion that "reflectors beat zoning" is downright false at tournament level play. And the idea that any ROB would ever use that move as a reflector without eating a hard punish is completely ridiculous.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I know. But it's a tleast a good anti-air attack lol.

 

[Balgorxz]

Soo, any character that needs a buff? I think Palutena could use some help with her framedata. Forward Tilt with a reduced end lag could help her a lot.

Palutena is never leaving bottom tier with those placeholder special moves, buffs won't do nothing to her, just wait until they let palutena and the miis use all of their moves on customs off tournaments.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I'm referring to normal play. But with customs she is pretty good.

 

[Jams.]

Palutena is never leaving bottom tier with those placeholder special moves, buffs won't do nothing to her, just wait until they let palutena and the miis use all of their moves on customs off tournaments.

A character can be perfectly functional with mediocre specials. Palutena doesn't just have awful specials (though Warp is quite good), she also has some of the worst tilts in the game. Even then, if you cut her grab endlag in half and gave dthrow an 88 degree knockback angle so she can combo into uair and usmash at kill percent, she'd likely be low mid at worst.

Relying on her and the Miis being able to use custom moves in default is like relying on an MK ban in Brawl.

 

[Luco]

But honestly, man, you gotta take one for the team sometimes. Team Smash 4, you know what I'm sayin? And like someone else said, she can be compensated for the loss in a way that keeps her high tier without invalidating so much of the rest of the cast.

Thanks, I'll take my Nobel peace prize and go.

I feel as if that since so many characters are viable in this game and that there are patches, people are going to complain about X character being above Y character and either one gets buffed or nerfed. Every game has top tier characters and low tier characters. Not once have i seen a game where everyone is balanced equally. People complain about Shiek and say her needles need to be toned down. If that does happened then people will want f-air nerfed. Then what will she be left with. She has good frame data and mobility, but can't rack up damage as easily because F-air nerf, can't force approaches as easily, and everytime she has been nerfed they took away another kill option. I feel as if before we ask for nerfs, look at what's really is polarizing, and why it needs to be nerf.

The second half of this is a bit of re-iteration but the first half is new and relevant so although I know we're probably not going to talk about this too much more I do want to raise a point here.

Kind of, but to be totally fair, the majority of people thought Sheik was a little on the polarising side even before diddy fell from being the king of smash. They were often put in the same tier. Sheik's stuff has been known about for a long time, it wasn't like people just magically jumped from Diddy to the next most "broken" top tier. I think if Sheik were toned down literally just so that she's still a boss in footsies but doesn't dictate where that happens so much (and give her back Bair!), I would love where top tier was at that point, because it wouldn't be characters dominating at all or nearly all spheres of play - even your top tiers would have very real weaknesses in their very design (Sheik's kill power, Luigi's ability to get in, Falcon's lacklustre specials and recovery, Ness' recovery and ability to be juggled, Rosalina's hurtboxes and vulnerability without Luma, etc etc etc) that mean they don't go even with/beat every other character in the cast.

And that being said, Thinkaman and Solid have brought up multiple times about the value of nerfing and buffing and it's a really interesting thought to consider (especially if you plan on becoming a game designer like me!)

Yes (buff the reflect limit to 20% Sakurai! Put that Sakur-bias to good use!) and make either his fthrow or bthrow a reasonable kill option. It doesn't need to be Ness levels of strong but for a character where grabbing is such a big part of their playstyle, it seems like a glaring omission. Little kids can kill earlier with throws than someone with a hammer the size of a show pony... that makes absolutely no sense to me... I dunno... Utilt getting back some of its Brawl strength would be nice too.
All in all, I don't think anyone needs like an absolute major overhaul aside from Robin. Just some extra kill power, less ending/landing lag for some moves, and better throw options and you can reasonably "fix" a good portion of the cast.

Psychic characters tend to have throws that defy everything you thought you knew. is the Tetsuo (from Akira) of this game. <3


ALSO, @Earthbound360 (Mik!) is pretty awesome, and it's great to see him getting recognition. Going against Boss in GFs? Wonderful! (Even if you used , I know you dislike the Ness-Luigi MU). SO PROUD.

 

[Kofu]

Not only is that move not ROB's side smash (it's side special) but it's also literally the worst, most easily punished reflector in the game. The notion that "reflectors beat zoning" is downright false at tournament level play. And the idea that any ROB would ever use that move as a reflector without eating a hard punish is completely ridiculous.

The main advantage of Arm Rotor when compared to most reflectors is that it maintains an active hitbox even after reflecting and one that allows you to get closer to your opponent. In general it's a mediocre reflector, though, mainly because it only reflects at the beginning. But it has its uses.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Palutena is never leaving bottom tier with those placeholder special moves, buffs won't do nothing to her, just wait until they let palutena and the miis use all of their moves on customs off tournaments.

I'd be hard pressed to call anyone in this game "bottom tier", especially when you compare this game's supposed worst to Brawl and Melee. She's obviously low tier but, at the same time, low tier in this game is practically what low middle tier was in Brawl: unpopular and "special snowflake" characters that probably could have been better but didn't really develop because hardly anyone used them (ex: ) thanks to some of their flaws instead of just being utterly annihilated by the top/high tiers.

I'd argue that Palutena's problem is how many of her attacks leave her wide open on shield or if they whiff thanks to their ending lag. This includes her dash attack, ftilt, utilt (which they already buffed once but is still terrible), and smash attacks. Her jab's very versatile, her grab game is pretty stellar and her aerials aren't too shabby either, especially her uair, so she has some aspects about her that are actually pretty good. For her, I think her attacks just need to have less ending lag or make them harder to punish. Going off of this idea has already proved wonders for her by turning her dtilt into one of her best defensive moves after being one of her worst moves when the game launched. I also think her fsmash and dsmash should have stronger wind boxes for this reason, giving them more utility as edgeguarding tools too.

 

[T-nuts]

The notion that "reflectors beat zoning" is downright false at tournament level play.

So which characters do handle zoning relatively well compared to the rest of the cast? I would still think fox is a solid choice, with a projectile of his own, a reflector, and speed to close the gap quickly. Is this correct/other characters worth mentioning?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Lucario is really good, he just needs a top level player to pick him up...

I'm going to go ahead and be "that guy" by saying that people said this about Lucario in Brawl too but that fabled player who had enough patience with his playstyle and could topple major tournaments never really came along. Like the Jews, Lucario mains have waited a long time for their Messiah to come though it's debatable if and when that day will ever come.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thoughts on Ryu vs Sheik

Ryu does not care about Sheiks buttons. When Walnut tried to play footsies he got bodied. Ryu simply hits too hard and his normals have disjoints. But when it dawns on the Sheik player to simply respect Ryu and wait it out, then the issues arise. Now Ryu is forced to rely on alot of empty baiting and in the process open himself up to needle pressure. Good thing is he lives FOREVER vs her and she has hard time finishing him without a good edgeguard. She can ignore alot of his trap set-ups thanks to Bouncing Fish so baiting that is key so he can punish. In zoning Ryu can actually come out on top. Sheik will eat a hadouken as Ryu eats needles and she only breaks even if she has them fully charged as long as he is not in range for the full damage on needle storm.

In the end it's just the fact that she does not have to commit and can wait and eventually Ryu must act. (If he doesnt have life lead.)

Next time I am winning I'm not going to do a damn thing. Just gonna stand there till she comes to me.

Still more training is needed.

"The journey has just begun"

I watched your set vs Sheik. You don't use Light U-tilt as much as I do. It's REALLY good against fastfallers and it's pretty reasonable for pressuring most shields as long as you're spaced outside of grab range. Pretty sure you know this but you get a day and a half to confirm stuff off Light U-tilt especially on fastfallers.

Atm I actually find Luigi more annoying for Ryu than Sheik. Even though Ryu clearly wins neutral in that matchup (his F-air beats almost the entirety of Luigi's neutral game), Luigi's grab reward and Cyclone edgeguard are pretty dumb, and even his low traction actually helps him avoid getting pressured by Light U-tilt. I've had Ryu's Up-B lose to Luigi Cyclone directly and then got spiked to my death as a result. Do you have any experience in that matchup?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So which characters do handle zoning relatively well compared to the rest of the cast? I would still think fox is a solid choice, with a projectile of his own, a reflector, and speed to close the gap quickly. Is this correct/other characters worth mentioning?

Well you're definitively right about that. He plays the rushdown game, and his reflector has niche use at long range. If it didn't have so much endlag it would be useful at mid range. But if Fox were slow on the ground, he wouldn't be so notable. Zero Suit Samus is another character who handles zoning incredibly well via Flip Jump and mobility specs. She doesn't need a reflector to beat zoning characters. It's why she's really good vs R.O.B. Sonic can also outcamp / flat out overwhelm characters like Villager. Basically mobility, size, and a burst option are the most important factors in terms of dealing with Zoning. This is why the Ganondorf vs R.O.B. matchup is one of the most lobsided in the game (same goes for Mega Man vs Dedede).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well you're definitively right about that. He plays the rushdown game, and his reflector has niche use at long range. If it didn't have so much endlag it would be useful at mid range. But if Fox were slow on the ground, he wouldn't be so notable. Zero Suit Samus is another character who handles zoning incredibly well via Flip Jump and mobility specs. She doesn't need a reflector to beat zoning characters. It's why she's really good vs R.O.B. Sonic can also outcamp / flat out overwhelm characters like Villager. Basically mobility, size, and a burst option are the most important factors in terms of dealing with Zoning. This is why the Ganondorf vs R.O.B. matchup is one of the most lobsided in the game (same goes for Mega Man vs Dedede).

ROB doesn't zone crap unless you have really bad reaction time. He's first and foremost a footsies character, and his projectiles almost entirely are there for the positive state. Honestly Ganon probably beats ROB because the sheer damage difference and he has BETTER range than ROB.

 

[PUK]

ROB doesn't zone crap unless you have really bad reaction time. He's first and foremost a footsies character, and his projectiles almost entirely are there for the positive state. Honestly Ganon probably beats ROB because the sheer damage difference and he has BETTER range than ROB.

honestly you're delusional

 

[A2ZOMG]

honestly you're delusional

Perfect shield exists. Until ROB actually gets a hit in neutral and is given the space to pick up the Gyro, his projectiles are near worthless, frankly. And Ganon actually outranges him and does like 3x as much damage.

 

[Djent]

RE:

I believed she wasn't bottom tier in default. But then all the other low/bottom characters got crazy buffs and/or people discovered ways to make their supposedly-flawed kits flow together. Neither of these things happened with her, so she's one of the worst by process of elimination. And that's why her lack of good moves matters so much. It limits her growth, and the devs can't buff her much else her good moves become OP.