Character Design in PM

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Sorry but I play the matchup more than any other match-up and I constantly lab out punishing every single one of his moves. Unless you have a great move to punish with like shine, bite, a short hop aerial etc. then the only way to punish MK's dash attack is to CC it. Again though, MK has perfectly fine answers to CC. Try holding down when he just runs up and grabs you, Usmashes, or does full jump aerials like I said in my post. Specifically full jump retreating nair. Then there is always the threat of IDC which is not humanly reactable and the only way to counter it is to already be throwing moves in front of you(Which if he baits, he can IDC). Also he has a fair amount of control in the trajectory of Dair. Not only can he aim it, but he can slightly drift with it as well. If he lands behind you, you better have a shine or very quick Dsmash or you won't punish him. It is not that free in the slightest. Again, I play Zard vs. MK more than any other match-up and have gone through numerous characters as counterpicks as well. I could make a compilation video of all my findings on punishing the character and all I can conclude is that people give terrible advice on fighting him. Holding down is not the answer.

Dude, just yesterday, I had enough time to sheild, let the sheild go, and then do a 5 frame dsmash. His Dash atk would be even easier to punish with CC. Pretty sure I've CC JCgrab'd that move before.

I don't know why someone would try to CC a full jump aerial. You would see it from a mile away. It would be better to anti air, instead of trying to CC it. I know for one, in the mk mirror MU, he can not come down on his self, with any hitboxes, because utilt anti airs his whole moveset.

If you see mk doing dair, just letting/making it hit you as you CC, is a free punish on mk, ya know. Like, you only said 3.

I can't speak on usmash since the MK's here, have replace that with utilts/uairs. And really, good CC at low/mid and even high % goes very far against mk.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Dude, just yesterday, I had enough time to sheild, let the sheild go, and then do a 5 frame dsmash. His Dash atk would be even easier to punish with CC. Pretty sure I've CC JCgrab'd that move before.

I don't know why someone would try to CC a full jump aerial. You would see it from a mile away. It would be better to anti air, instead of trying to CC it. I know for one, in the mk mirror MU, he can not come down on his self, with any hitboxes, because utilt anti airs his whole moveset.

If you see mk doing dair, just letting/making it hit you as you CC, is a free punish on mk, ya know. Like, you only said 3.

I can't speak on usmash since the MK's here, have replace that with utilts/uairs. And really, good CC at low/mid and even high % goes very far against mk.

If you have enough time to let go of shield and punish dash attack then the MK is doing it SUPER early or simply not doing anything after the dash attack. Regardless it doesn't really matter that much. It's just a move thats icing on the cake.

I don't think you understand what I mean by full jump aerial. Full jump nair's early frames will hit you even if you CC. Then you just fade back or cancel the lag with a platform so its difficult if not impossible for some characters to punish.

Again, you're speaking about the match-up as if MK won't adapt. It doesn't matter if you can CC dair or fsmash or whatever, he has enough things to make you scared to CC that punish you extremely well. After I lost to K9 at UFGT I pretty much taught everyone in my state to play the character, and even some of the more rigged IDC stuff I still don't see lots of MK players do(CC IDC, IDC OOS). You aren't going to beat an adaptive Metaknight just holding down.

The character is ridiculously good, I play it more than any other match-up and I still don't like it. The thing is most MK players can all play the character differently and you're forced to adapt. A passive MK and a rushdown MK are different beasts but you have to play accordingly. He is extremely good at conditioning people at neutral.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Controversial post time...

I've been spending a lot of time on other major Smash hubs besides Smashboards (Facebook PM group and reddit being the big ones) and a lot of people seem to complain about the game "lacking direction".

Now I know the game's original title was "Project Melee", and I have no idea when it started being called Project M (the Melee part being dropped altogether), but I do know that people (especially Melee players, whether they're scrubby spacies mains who pretend to be Dark or SW with their tech skill, roll away from ledges, and DI up when getting hit offstage, or they're Mew2King) are kinda lost on the direction of the game. I haven't done enough research on it, but it seems that somewhere around 2.5, people started complaining a lot more about the game's direction, and how before it had a focus, and now its just this so called "Revenge of the Low Tiers". Maybe because 2.5 was when it started getting some attention? People also complain about Fox and Falco "not feeling like Melee". I find it to be a legit complaint. I mean the game is aiming to be more balanced than Melee, so leaving spacies untouched, but having characters that can fight them more easily (via punish game, neutral, etc) would create better balance between the two as well.
In general, I got this message. "As this game's original focus was to have a Melee environment with about 30 new matchups to learn, I don't think that adjusting to slight physics changes should really be another thing on X Melee player's to do list when learning PM, unless they're picking up a new character. We should just have to learn matchups. And if you're trying to learn both games with the same character, the timing differences can hurt you". I also heard a lot of things like if you want to improve at Smash, you should stick to Melee, because PM is easy mode/fraudulent/broken.

Is there anything innately wrong with this mentality? PM has its own fair share of issues (like any game). The game is designed by competitive players, who do have somewhat of a bias (see each broken character throughout the revisions) and want to make a bunch of moves DI traps. I mean yes there are a lot more viable floaty characters, but there are also a lot more decent heavies, so Falco will still really have no trouble pillaring/SH Lasering, and Fox should have no real issues getting that nair up smash. Is there any reason why the two Melee spacies have timing differences? I mean the extra frame of jump squat to SH does affect them the most out of the entire Melee cast (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[Blitzus]

Here's my take on it, and I've oversimplified it, but I think it says it fairly well.

"Project M was created because we like Brawl's Content, but didn'tnlike its physics and mechanics."
- Bulge 2014

 

[victinivcreate1]

Here's my take on it, and I've oversimplified it, but I think it says it fairly well.

"Project M was created because we like Brawl's Content, but didn'tnlike its physics and mechanics."
- Bulge 2014

What I'm saying is what happened to that? A lot of PM matches while still hype when that aggresive player comes through and starts wrecking, unfortunately many of them are extremely campy. Sonic for example is pretty much avoid Spin Dash, get a 2 hit combo and let him Spring out. Then get on him again and rinse repeat. Unlike Falco which is avoid lasers, but when you do hit comfirm he could very much die.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Go watch some Melee Puff dittos for a while, or a Peach v Puff match.

Anyway, what happened is the roster diversified and it became more than just an attempt to emulate Melee.

The average PM match actually isn't that much longer than a typical Melee match - the numbers I last saw put it around 10% longer. Changes to recoveries will reduce quite that value. Other gameplay changes may reduce it further. That's not to say that defensive/campy playstyles should be completely eliminated (an option I find extremely unhealthy for the game and community at large), but I suspect there are characters with decent camping tools for which the PMBR did not intend for them to play in such a manner.

 

[Paradoxium]

I want this game to stick to its roots, I want proper spacing, mind games, and overall fundamentals to be the deciding factor in a match. I want to see fast paced matches that require quick thinking and clever decision making.

High level melee is super exciting, I want pm to look like that except with more character. I don't wanna see bull**** like Ivysaur, Lucas, Link, ect.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I want this game to stick to its roots, I want proper spacing, mind games, and overall fundamentals to be the deciding factor in a match. I want to see fast paced matches that require quick thinking and clever decision making.

High level melee is super exciting, I want pm to look like that except with more character. I don't wanna see bull**** like Ivysaur, Lucas, Link, ect.

This. This is essentially a tl;dr version of what I said. This was also repeated by many Melee players, scrubby or Melee god. They want the game to focus more on fundamentals. Giving characters more tools is fine, but giving a character a single extremely powerful tool (they said Mewtwo was #1 for this type of issue) or giving a character multiple very good tools, and then having virtually zero weaknesses (Lucas was the prime example, and then when someone brought up space animals, then someone else would say Melee spacies=combo food. Lucas isn't on that level) is bad design.

They complained about a bunch of other characters, but in the end, they felt that if the game cut down on certain character's options, and reverted melee spacies back to normal, it would probably be perfect. Many Melee players have said that there were several incredibly well designed characters with very clear weaknesses and strengths ( came up often). And yes. A few mentioned MK as fairly well balanced. He's perfectly beatable with his laughable weight and super easy combo food falling speed, but has obvious strengths as well. Then they'd mention the list of characters that were too janky and unfair ( came up the most).

@ InfinityCollision
Thats the problem. In PM, there are characters who have just too many effective camp tools. Say you have Falco who literally has one move that allows him to be campy. Then you have Link who has 3 special moves, each one very useful and can be used in specific ranges (one literally sets up autocombos/DI traps/whatever the term is called, another problem which PM suffers from) and the zair which is pretty huge.

Or Pit. One move that makes him campy, but the arrows literally do just autocombo. Its not even a DI trap. You get arrowed over 100? Eat a fair.

 

[InfinityCollision]

How often do words like "janky" "unfair" and "gimmick" translate to "I don't like this/can't be ****ed to learn how to deal with it" instead of "fundamentally poor design"? Case in point, whoever it was that ******* about Zelda. She could use some tweaks, but not because she's unfair. If anything she needs adjustments to de-polarize her matchups, quite a few characters can dashdance her into oblivion right now.

Quantity of camp tools is irrelevant. Quality of net camp kit is what matters. The only problem you could argue regarding Link's projectile game right now is how incredibly versatile boomerang is. If you took zoning tools away from him then his midrange game would collapse and he'd be garbage. No argument from me regarding Pit needing adjustments.

 

[victinivcreate1]

How often do words like "janky" "unfair" and "gimmick" translate to "I don't like this/can't be ****ed to learn how to deal with it" instead of "fundamentally poor design"? Case in point, whoever it was that *****ed about Zelda. She could use some tweaks, but not because she's unfair. If anything she needs adjustments to de-polarize her matchups, quite a few characters can dashdance her into oblivion right now.

Quantity of camp tools is irrelevant. Quality of net camp kit is what matters. The only problem you could argue regarding Link's projectile game right now is how readily boomerang sets up combos. If you took zoning tools away from him then his midrange game would collapse and he'd be garbage.

I'm not saying completely remove it (that'd be like saying "oh mewtwo is bruk lets remove tail range teleport weit n make cunfuzun uslus agen and get maylee myutoo"). I'm saying lets make it less polarizing. I don't even consider Link to be top tier (my tier list has Lucario over him lol) but he has a ton of very silly things that should not be working. Sometimes I think about picking up the broken characters in PM besides Mewtwo and know I'd do well just because of X attribute. Zelda also has a few goofy things that need to be fixed.

Link's projectile game is kinda ridiculous when you think about how much better his close range game is now.

Mario has one projectile, and we're still complaining about it nearly A YEAR AND A HALF LATER (since 2.6 I believe).

I feel like where the PM devs go wrong is the fact that they buff so much of a character. Mario from 2.5 was already pretty solid. 2.6 and he has it MADE for top tier. Diddy Kong is already a ] top 3-4 Brawl character, with tons of combo potential IN BRAWL. He has it MADE in PM. He got a slew of buffs and not too many nerfs. If anything, he needed to NOT have it made. Mewtwo had some pretty decent traits about him in Melee it was just his horrible survivability. Now he is almost a fatty, has this woop that you can atatck out of, use the Hover OUT OF WOOP to make everything not commitment (this breaks him hard) and the fact that they kept his Melee frame data and either buffed the range or power or both of said move.

 

[Deleted member]

the game is already fantastic and will only get better in time. if you want PM to be better then don't worry about other people, focus on yourself and become a better player. sit back and enjoy the game for what it is.

 

[Metarai]

Well, they seem to be working on it, with nerfed recoveries coming in 3.5.
I agree that some characters are buffed up too much, but considering the amount of characters I would cut the PM team a little slack. Its hard to make this game like melee when many of the characters naturally have good recoveries. Melee also has characters that could be seen as unfair (like campy characters), but they were low tier and never had a chance to show themselves in matches. In PM, they are trying to make all of the characters balanced. That is why you see campy characters in competitive play, since they have better match ups. And of course the characters who were bad in previous games are buffed heavily while the top tier characters are nerfed in the beginning. And we only have had all of the characters for less than a year. Even though Mario may have been a problem in 2.6, they probably were not focusing on him as much. Now that all of the characters are here, can they crack down on the overpowered characters. That's my opinion, anyways.

 

[victinivcreate1]

@Umbreon I main a broken character that has tons of untapped potential (Emukiller barely scratched the surface of Mewtwo tech). I'm having loads of fun at the moment.

@ Metarai
Some things really don't seem like actual balance and more like Mother 3 hardcore fanboyism.
I mean PM Lucas somehow got by the DT and the BR. The fact that he has a DACUS in PM (and never did in Brawl) is just the start of where they went wrong lol.

 

[Phaiyte]

- This isn't melee

- People can and will play their characters how ever the **** they want, and they shouldn't have to listen to people ***** about it because their opponent doesn't know how to use the block button.

- Mewtwo hovering out of teleport isn't even safe. Just please, quit ******** about it lol

- Fox and Falco were "touched", despite what some think. There is literally no actual reason to complain about them. Their playstyles were kept intact, and their only actual overwhelming attributes were dropped.

 

[DraconisMarch]

Mewtwo hovering out of teleport isn't even safe. Just please, quit *****ing about it lol

You don't think being able to land every hit of Nair on someone's shield and probably ending up shield poking them (especially if their shield wasn't already 100% fresh) is safe?

Some things really don't seem like actual balance and more like Mother 3 hardcore fanboyism.
I mean PM Lucas somehow got by the DT and the BR. The fact that he has a DACUS in PM (and never did in Brawl) is just the start of where they went wrong lol.

Um... what's wrong with him having a DACUS? Like someone else suggested in this thread...

How often do words like "janky" "unfair" and "gimmick" translate to "I don't like this/can't be ****ed to learn how to deal with it" instead of "fundamentally poor design"?

This. It sounds like what this thread is about is just the OP making far-reaching, undirected statements about the direction of the game based on the fact that there are just some things they don't like/want to have to learn to deal with. That's all I'm getting out of this thread. The game is in a really great spot right now, and is only going to get better after the next update, as from their recent posts, it's clear that they intend to address issues that exist.

 

[Phoenix502]

no direction? I don't know about anyone else, but I was under the impression that the "PM is to be what we call a successor of Melee" generalization to be said direction...

as for wanting certain tweaks... it's worth pointing out that Melee as it was is infinitely different than it was when it started out... from what I've read elsewhere, Marth, for instance, was considered a noob character until Ken came around. the same could be said about a few others... nobody tweaked with Melee to shift the odds [until recently with SD Remix], players had to use their heads to get to where they are.

so odds are, if the devs want to change something, it'll either have to be due to near unanimous negative feedback on one thing, or something they themselves decided, for whatever reason.

 

[GFooChombey]

So here's the thing about PM these days. It still finds it roots in Melee, you can't deny that, but there is no way it will be a 1:1 copy simply because of the roster. So many of the Brawl characters fundamentally play in a way that does not fit Melee, and the PMDT has worked to fix that, but there is only so much you can do. Instead they've managed to create something fresh, like a sequel, with a larger roster.

That is where the direction takes a huge turn from Melee. Not to say match-ups don't matter in Melee, but given the selection of frequently used characters/stages, it relies much more on tech skill. In PM, however, we see a meta based more around match-ups which is why so many people have multiple mains.

 

[Beorn]

I agree with the OP to an extent.

I think this game would be much better if everyone had some of their more "good" or "polarizing" moves nerfed so that their is more thought and consequence to the moves you use.
Every character in this game right now (and this is excluding recoveries) has at least one move or option that needs to be toned down in safety or power, this includes Ganon.

Here are a couple of quick examples of this (again excluding obvious recovery nerfs)
Mario: Dsmash is too powerful and safe for it's speed and CC options, Fire balls, I could go on.

Ganon: usmash is nonpunishable on shield which coupled with a huge dacus and the move killing very low, and having two 22% hitboxes (for a full 44) this is an option that just seems fine because his other options are so sub par, but it isn't. He needs buffs to neutral not overpowering options to make up for his bad neutral.

Link ( my main) Boomerang is too good, but we all know this. On the other hand things like Dash attack being so fast and comboing into itself, while not breaking him at all, is unnecessarily powerful with little risk. Same with Usmash, while most people do not find this move too good, it has very good range, speed and damage, It should have more risk involved. This is not a move you should be able to throw out in neutral it covers enough options when people are above you.

Things like what I and the OP are referring to may not break the game or characters that they are on (with obvious exceptions) but they degenerate play and take away from the aspects of the game that make melee an enjoyable game to watch and play.

TLDR:What I feel people are trying to articulate about this game, that do have a problem with it, is that there are too many options at any given time, which requires less commitment and less thought from the players. Whether this be recovery's or simply too many safe or overlapping options in neutral. All of these small things add up and breed the negativity that sometimes surrounds this game.

 

[Phaiyte]

You don't think being able to land every hit of Nair on someone's shield and probably ending up shield poking them (especially if their shield wasn't already 100% fresh) is safe?

You have plenty of time to react to mewtwo jumping and turning into a white ball of in the distance. Then he has to wait for teleport actually reach you, then he deals with waiting for hover to activate, and then the startup frames of nair. No, it is not that safe. FFS, all you have to do is press A.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

You have plenty of time to react to mewtwo jumping and turning into a white ball of in the distance. Then he has to wait for teleport actually reach you, then he deals with waiting for hover to activate, and then the startup frames of nair. No, it is not that safe. FFS, all you have to do is press A.

Nair may not be technically safe, but it can be a problem when mixups with bair and shadowball exist, possibly with crossup variants. Sure, jab -> buffer block should keep most characters safe with good timing, but it still affords M2 free pressure, and sometimes an approach.

 

[Phaiyte]

Nair may not be technically safe, but it can be a problem when mixups with bair and shadowball exist, possibly with crossup variants. Sure, jab -> buffer block should keep most characters safe with good timing, but it still affords M2 free pressure, and sometimes an approach.

You can't change the distance of teleport. If you can keep track of the distance between you and him, teleport will never be a real issue. Hovering causes mewtwo to lose his second jump. Hit him out of it and put it in his butt hole. It's not hard.

 

[DraconisMarch]

You have plenty of time to react to mewtwo jumping and turning into a white ball of in the distance. Then he has to wait for teleport actually reach you, then he deals with waiting for hover to activate, and then the startup frames of nair. No, it is not that safe. FFS, all you have to do is press A.

It sounds so easy when you just write it like that, but you do realize that in practice that all of those things happen really quickly, right? Or have you never experienced it in practice?

You can't change the distance of teleport. If you can keep track of the distance between you and him, teleport will never be a real issue. Hovering causes mewtwo to lose his second jump. Hit him out of it and put it in his butt hole. It's not hard.

Please tell that to all of the people M2K and Emukiller roflstomped with Mewtwo at SKTAR 3. Tell them that they were just bad to ever get hit by teleport -> Nair.

 

[Bazkip]

Ganon: usmash is nonpunishable on shield which coupled with a huge dacus and the move killing very low, and having two 22% hitboxes (for a full 44) this is an option that just seems fine because his other options are so sub par, but it isn't. He needs buffs to neutral not overpowering options to make up for his bad neutral.

I can't say I agree with this due to the move having absolutely no horizontal range, so even with dacus you need to be right on target to hit with it. Both hits deal 41% total, btw, though that's not much of a difference.

The move that I'd list for your examples for Ganon would be dthrow, chaingrabs that go on for so long are pretty dumb imo. Nerf chaingrab buff grab range and that situation is dealt with perfectly.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't plan on commenting on the rest of the thread, but this game was literally never, ever named "Project Melee," even in 2009 before it was announced. The announcement trailer from January 2010, even, was titled "Project M is coming..." Our social media outlets and YouTube were named ProjectMelee because ProjectM was taken on all of them.

 

[Lil Puddin]

This mod has accomplished its goal. It was mainly to take Melee's physics and translated to Brawl while rebalancing the characters.

The reason why spacies are mostly untouched is because they are ridiculously good as is. They all apply pressure well, which is the best stance to take in this game. Fox can actually apply pressure and also camp or bait, which makes him quite a high tier character as is.

The main problem in this game is the recoveries at the moment. Ex: Lucas, Samus, and Mewtwo all have insanely good and safe recoveries. Thus making it harder to kill them, and making it easier for them to edge guard you/kill you. Then there are characters with pitiful recoveries. Ex: Sheik's recovery is basically "transform into Zelda and hope you get to the ledge on time." WTF kinda crap is that?

Anyway, my only issue is that some characters have a move set that promotes camping. I personally would like a more offensive Zelda. While her aerials and defense are great, she is still a punching bag for anybody who moves fast. The only way she can really fight them off is by being overly defensive, laying Dins, or spamming Naryu. All of which lead to headaches for both parties. Give the girl some movement speed or something.

 

[Bazkip]

Give the girl some movement speed or something.

She's in a dress, don't think running in that will end particularly well.

3.5 Zelda changelog
- Faster run speed, but has random chance of tripping.

There, balanced.

 

[Bleck]

is this another one of those threads where someone complains that characters have single tools that are too good and then go on to imply that fox and falco are fine

 

[Strong Badam]

is this another one of those threads where someone complains that characters have single tools that are too good and then go on to imply that fox and falco are fine

yes

 

[Beorn]

I can't say I agree with this due to the move having absolutely no horizontal range, so even with dacus you need to be right on target to hit with it. Both hits deal 41% total, btw, though that's not much of a difference.

The move that I'd list for your examples for Ganon would be dthrow, chaingrabs that go on for so long are pretty dumb imo. Nerf chaingrab buff grab range and that situation is dealt with perfectly.

A move does not need horizontal range to be good when you slide 3/4ths of FD while attacking. I knew it was somewhere in that % range ^_^'
Yes, the dthrow needs to be nerfed as well. I was giving examples maybe not everyone else would consider needing changes. Again, I and some others are of the opinion that this game would benefit from all characters being more around the level of melee high teirs. Getting rid of unnecessarily powerful options, that on paper don't seem like a problem would help the game be more thought provoking and enjoyable to watch.

I will say ,however, that the spacies should be nerfed along with a cast wide nerf. I say keep the nerfs they have already gotten and give them their pal changes as well. The nerfs they have gotten amount to quite a bit already.

I meant to touch on this last post, but I believe and have believed since 2.6 that the BR/DT would eventually come to the conclusion that basing this game around characters with arguably broken moves (the spacies) would result in serious powercreep. I think we will all be pleasantly surprised by 3.5. The fact that they have nerfed lucases recovery to the extent that they have, shows just how much will change come 3.5.

This is not a jab at the BR/DT just constructive criticism. If it wasn't already apparent by how much thought I've given this and my posting about it at all, I love PM. I've stuck with this game for as long as anyone here, contrary to my join date, and am hopeful for the future.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I don't plan on commenting on the rest of the thread, but this game was literally never, ever named "Project Melee," even in 2009 before it was announced. The announcement trailer from January 2010, even, was titled "Project M is coming..." Our social media outlets and YouTube were named ProjectMelee because ProjectM was taken on all of them.

I'm not looking to start a fight, but a lot of these reddit/facebook folk mentioned your name in a negative light. Said you were like anti-Melee and wrote several anti melee posts about how PM is its own game, (when to an extent it isn't) because you kept getting waveshined or something...

Maybe they're just anti-PM? Lol

 

[Lil Puddin]

She's in a dress, don't think running in that will end particularly well.

3.5 Zelda changelog
- Faster run speed, but has random chance of tripping.

There, balanced.

Hooker Physics Law #2 applies to Zelda because she wears high heels. She should be able to run faster than a Kenyan regardless of her attire. That's why Samus can run really fast when she is in her zero suit despite dem heels. But let it be known that Princess Zeldoo would be the classiest of all royal hookers.

 

[Bazkip]

A move does not need horizontal range to be good when you slide 3/4ths of FD while attacking. I knew it was somewhere in that % range ^_^'
Yes, the dthrow needs to be nerfed as well. I was giving examples maybe not everyone else would consider needing changes. Again, I and some others are of the opinion that this game would benefit from all characters being more around the level of melee high teirs. Getting rid of unnecessarily powerful options, that on paper don't seem like a problem would help the game be more thought provoking and enjoyable to watch.

Obviously the dacus gives it a lot of utility but I don't think you can just brush aside it's hitbox placement like that, even with it you need to be extremely precise to land a hit. Compare to say, Lucas' upsmash (especially when charged), which will probably hit as long as the opponent is in the general vicinity of "over there". It's not just something you can toss around, or just run up to someone and do. Ganon's a strong guy, cut the man some slack I think he deserves some powerful options.

Maybe it could be tweaked, maybe it could even be redesigned as part of some larger overall changes to Ganon, but I don't think it's problematic as is.

I agree to some extent with what you're saying in general, but I think you might be pushing for a little too much in the way of nerfs.

 

[Beorn]

Obviously the dacus gives it a lot of utility but I don't think you can just brush aside it's hitbox placement like that, even with it you need to be extremely precise to land a hit. Compare to say, Lucas' upsmash (especially when charged), which will probably hit as long as the opponent is in the general vicinity of "over there". It's not just something you can toss around, or just run up to someone and do. Ganon's a strong guy, cut the man some slack I think he deserves some powerful options.

Maybe it could be tweaked, maybe it could even be redesigned as part of some larger overall changes to Ganon, but I don't think it's problematic as is.

I agree to some extent with what you're saying in general, but I think you might be pushing for a little too much in the way of nerfs.

I'm on your side man, ganon shouldn't lose dacus. It is one of the only things he has that can compete with characters like lucas.
On the other hand characters like lucas shouldn't be a thing, and are being dealt with in 3.5 I'm sure. In that environment yes Ganondorf should have a more punishable dacus, but he should also get a better neutral. Ganon with a better neutral would be good and not need unnecessarily powerful tools like his current dacus to succeed.

I'm not going to lose sleep if this doesn't get changed. We just ended up posting about it more than the rest of what I said. I meant it only as a reference to the extent of the nerfs I think would benefit this game.

Yes, his dacus is hype to watch when it succeeds the first few times you see or do it, but then you realize how safe and spam-able it is. If it just got enough endlag to be punished on-shield for poor spacing or your opponent reading it, it would be more interesting and require more thought while still being a very good option for a character like ganon with few fast moving attacks. Again, I say this with the idea that he needs buffs too his neutral (Initial dash speed or lower jump-squat or better rolls ect)

 

[Paradoxium]

I'm not looking to start a fight, but a lot of these reddit/facebook folk mentioned your name in a negative light. Said you were like anti-Melee and wrote several anti melee posts about how PM is its own game, (when to an extent it isn't) because you kept getting waveshined or something...

Maybe they're just anti-PM? Lol

People are always looking for someone to blame. So whatever complaints they have about Project M they just blame it on Strong Bad, not realizing that Pm is made by a huge ass dev team and not just a single Wario player. The man has been around for a long time he knows his stuff.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm not looking to start a fight, but a lot of these reddit/facebook folk mentioned your name in a negative light. Said you were like anti-Melee and wrote several anti melee posts about how PM is its own game, (when to an extent it isn't) because you kept getting waveshined or something...

Maybe they're just anti-PM? Lol

I have an extremely positive tournament record against both Fox and Falco, losing only to top 10-15 Melee players if at all. But yes, for whatever reason a subset of people seem to not like me much and attempt to interpret literally anything that happens in my life negatively. Don't really understand why.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Lost to more than that ._."

 

[Shadic]

Merging "The Direction of Project M" with this thread, since they're both basically just complaint threads for character designs anyways.

 

[1FD]

I was watching 2 locals play Ivy vs Link

Link threw a bomb off a platform across YS: Melee and immediately did a FH Dair
It hit the Ivy (who was on the far end of the far platform) across the WHOLE STAGE TO LINK straight into the Dair for the kill

It had been a while since we saw something that epic and funny.

TY PM, TY
Donno how you designed that, but I wish I had my dazzle set up at the time to re-watch it over and over.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I love playing as Ganondorf and although he is much better than Brawl (thank god!) he still not very good at all and without even considering that he is a clone and not unique his design as of now still needs major work.

1) Neutral B- why does still exist? A new and useful B is very much overdue.

2) Very easy to gimp/edge guard- Maybe adding some armor on his recovery or preferably extending the hit box on his "swipe" at the end of Up B and more power behind it (maybe with dark magic coming out his hand) would help against edge guarders so they have to keep some distance or be watchful.

3) Can be "combo-ed" like crazy- he needs an easier time to recover from getting hit instead of just being helpless all the time giving him less start up frames on some aerials or neutrals would help.

4) Smash's are to "short"- they don't cover any space and are easy to avoid, Up smash needs a little more vertical range and allot more horizontal (plus a different animation is due, its just a copy/paste from Falcon's and doesn't fit Ganon at all), Side smash is too short, Ganon extending his arm all the way would be much better for a bit more of spacing (I think Warlock Punch animation could fit very well for fsmash). Down smash needs more horizontal range and needs to be faster, its very easy to avoid, also it needs to catch crouching and downed opponents. Bad design on Smash attacks especially considering other heavy's smash attacks are something to watch out for/fear. No only Ganon's Smash's are short and hard to hit with but when they do hit they don't KO effectively, Up smash is weaker than Fox's (why?) but is much harder to hit with, Side smash send opponents up?!?!? And down smash is just plain weak compared to other heavy's smashes.

5) T-Rex arms for Grab/ bad OoS options- any opponent worth a damn knows Ganon cant do anything worth while out of shield, its way too safe to attack Ganon shield. for one; because the grab range is so short it wont reach even if you space with a very short move like Mario's Jab. and two; with running attacks that hit low. A good grab range is definitely over due Bower's grab is pretty good, DK's grab is good, Charizard's grab is good, DDD's grab is good etc. I don't see why Ganondorf is the only heavy with a horrible grab range even compared to none heavy's his range is abysmal.

6) Not strong enough- now some of you might think I'm crazy but like I stated before his smash attacks are underwhelming to say the least and even his aerials don't KO as well like they did in Melee. Maybe its more the direction they send isn't as straight/downward angle but something feels off and Ganondorf just doesn't feel like the power house he is supposed to be.

7) Aerial Wiz-Kick hit-box is at the Knee?!?- seriously why? Why isn't the hit-box at the foot? It would allow Ganon to have a sort of defense to an opponent juggling and would make the opponent not feel so safe below Ganondorf.

I will always main Ganondorf and I love the way he feels, but there is no doubt he is one of the worst designed character in smash as a whole due to being a clone and also move-set wise not being good either. I also have full confidence in the PMDT doing right by Ganon, but I'm just sick and tired of having an up hill battle every match against pretty much every character! especially the likes of Flaco and Mario/Dr.Mario with those spam-able projectiles... sigh.

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ _Ganondorf_

By default Ganondorf will always be bogged down by projectiles, unless they make him as fast as Falcon (I'd like to see that lmao). For the same reason he will be combo food. Fatties by default are not going to be top tier unless its 1. Brawl+you have other broken attributes (thats how Snake is top in Brawl) or 2. You have high speed and have extremely effective ways to beat projectiles/escape combos.

I think the one thing Ganon could use is some agility. He has demonstrated it in his games. He has shown the capabilities to do back flips, high speed manuevers, and is capable of flight. I'd say make him as fast as Mario in terms of dash speed and the character will be significantly better. That and a better grab range. TBH chain grabs are fine. Just tone it down a bit and it'd be fine. I'd say 50% is a good place for CGs to stop working, unless you're an FFer, then you're just doomed. The thing is, a bunch of people complaining about CGs main fast fallers, and their job is to get CG'd and comboed lol.