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Characters who are worse than they should be (and why they are)

firo

Smash Ace
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Jul 27, 2008
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600
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Champaign, Illinois
I've been thinking a bit about this game and how it's played, and it makes me wonder about why some characters haven't seen as much success as I think they deserve.

It's my belief that this game can reasonably be played at a much higher technical level than what we currently see, and as a result some characters will begin to be much more viable. I've been playing a bit more melee than I have in the past, and the average competitive melee player is much more technical than the average 64 player. I think at least three characters would benefit the most from highly technical play:

Fox: Fox might be the most technical character in the game. With a hit on an opposing character's shield, fox should be getting a high percentage combo, or a kill, almost every time. Lasers should be able to deter most approaches. His speed should get him through almost all other characters' moves.

Link: At extremely high levels, link should be a powerhouse. Perfect platform jumps, ledge cancels, bombs, boomerangs, etc. should shut other characters down. Link has enough options to completely lock his opponent down if he executes well enough.

Yoshi: More parrys, faster DJCs. Almost every single non multi-hit move should be parried by a highly technical player.

Do I think a human can get to these levels? Yes, fairly reasonably, if we use melee or some other fighting games as a comparison. Right now, pikachu is at the top of the tier lists, but at a higher technical level of play I don't see why this shouldn't be fox, with link, yoshi, falcon right up there. If this game ever dies out, I don't know if I'm comfortable saying that pikachu and kirby were indisputably the best characters in the game.

If we accept the premise that we can play much more technically, why haven't we seen it? I think there's two reasons:

1. Lack of players: This is a huge barrier, as with more players come different play styles, more tournaments, more money involved, and more motivation to practice. Our community is small and has rallied behind characters that have proven success. Only having a few tournaments a year encourages players to use safe characters. Besides Isai at apex a few years ago, I can't remember the last time I saw a link player at a tournament. I don't think our current view of the tier list should be responsible for this.

2. Controllers: I recently got my hands on a like-new n64 controller that a relative was able to get for me during a vacation to Japan. The difference it makes is very significant. When melee players talk about their bad controllers, the sticks they refuse to play with are usually on par with the best n64 controllers we see at tournaments. Better controllers means better execution, and less mistakes. Imagine how people would play if we could use a new control stick at each tournament. I think the level of play would improve very significantly. Does this mean we should make an effort to move away from the n64 controller? I don't know.

3. Netplay (thanks to Mr. Bushido): Playing online with delay and lag impact how we play our characters. The top characters definitely received more attention in the early days of netplay, especially with people playing with 5+ frames regularly.

If we can solve these problems, I really believe that the most technical characters should define the ssb64 metagame.
I'm curious about what people think about this.
 
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Sedda

Smash Champion
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Jan 26, 2013
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Luigi sucks
1. Lack of players: This is a huge barrier, as with more players come different play styles, more tournaments, more money involved, and more motivation to practice. Our community is small and has rallied behind characters that have proven success. Only having a few tournaments a year encourages players to use safe characters. Besides Isai at apex a few years ago, I can't remember the last time I saw a link player at a tournament. I don't think our current view of the tier list should be responsible for this.
.
This is why I was arguing with Karajan and telling him that the skill ceiling for Melee is waayy higher. They've had a very active scene for 10+ years worldwide now, and we don't.. The closest that we have to that is Japan.

About tier lists: I think that tier lists should just be changed to a model like the one Jousuke created. That way we're not having to argue about things like x character is better overall because he's better than y character vs z character. A lot of that comes down to perception and ultimately that can obfuscate the actual difference in characters across tiers.

It would be way easier to come up with a technical representation of how characters are played within a spectrum rather than a numbered list, and that would dispel a lot of misconceptions that basically say that some characters are just BETTER than others in every way. imo that would be better for new players to see. Changing people's perception of characters from good/bad to DIFFICULTY TO OPERATION could encourage people to look at characters differently.

I'm a scrub tho, so that's just my opinion.
 
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Mr Bushido

Smash Ace
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Oct 26, 2013
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Dale Star
Most 64 players have **** tech skill

Part of it is due to netplay; people lose confidence in moves requiring precise timing / button combinations due to frame delay / framerate inconsistencies
 

Shears

Smash Master
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disproving indeterminism
I agree with this. I in fact think the game is perfectly balanced, however, some characters require much more tech skill than others. I like what jouske did and I think thats a much more accurate representation of the games characters instead of a tier list.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
I in fact think the game is perfectly balanced
The statistical unlikelihood of that is far far far lower than your chances of winning the lottery.

Firo and Z are right, 64 players have really bad tech skill for the most part compared to other games (myself included). Its not due to natural ability (at least not in large part), its just the amount of practice people put in. Sounds obvious but players not practicing much is what holds the average skill level down so much. As for myself, I am very rarely in the mood where I can actually go into training mode for much longer than 5 minutes (if that). My 'practice' is almost always just playing real people, and I think a lot of people are the same way. Unfortunately, here in NA we are generally too spread out to get consistent console games in--consistent meaning 5+ days a week against equal or better competition.
 

McGodd

Smash Apprentice
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Link: At extremely high levels, link should be a powerhouse. Perfect platform jumps, ledge cancels, bombs, boomerangs, etc. should shut other characters down. Link has enough options to completely lock his opponent down if he executes well enough.
This is pretty interesting to me, as I've long wondered if anybody shared this opinion with me. I've recently felt like the potential behind link at an extremely high level is just limited by the number of people that are willing to put in the time and effort and push the character further than it's been taken in the past. I hate to use Isai as an example but we've seen that Link can perform well against most of the cast at an extremely high level of play with consistent tech skill and excellent spacing/mind games.

I don't think this game is THAT balanced but the lower tier characters definitely have a lot more viability than people give them credit for.
 

firo

Smash Ace
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Jul 27, 2008
Messages
600
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Champaign, Illinois
Most 64 players have **** tech skill

Part of it is due to netplay; people lose confidence in moves requiring precise timing / button combinations due to frame delay / framerate inconsistencies
I forgot to consider netplay - but I agree this is another huge factor.

Another possibility is that a lot of the more techincal players end up migrating to melee or other games, where their tech skill is more easily rewarded. But I don't see any reason why ssb64 can't be played the same way.
 
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Sedda

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I disagree with that, sorta.

good techskill (or being technically consistent) can get you pretty far in 64 because of combos and guaranteed techchase set ups (at least online in NA) more than it could in Melee. imo techskill is a way more clear-cut reward in 64 than in Melee, so that's why I'm going to start practicing movement and combos a little bit every day.

the punish game in 64 is also way more brutal since most characters can combo in many different situations, so theres another incentive for people to get better technically. one technical error means 1 stock against a good player
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
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This is pretty interesting to me, as I've long wondered if anybody shared this opinion with me. I've recently felt like the potential behind link at an extremely high level is just limited by the number of people that are willing to put in the time and effort and push the character further than it's been taken in the past. I hate to use Isai as an example but we've seen that Link can perform well against most of the cast at an extremely high level of play with consistent tech skill and excellent spacing/mind games.

I don't think this game is THAT balanced but the lower tier characters definitely have a lot more viability than people give them credit for.
Watching Isai's link try his best against boom's falcon on DL only to fail most of the time really makes me question how good link can be.

@ KeroKeroppi KeroKeroppi I almost mentioned how that's why you guys improved so fast, but yea basically lol
 
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Sedda

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Luigi sucks
idk. after seeing how jousuke's link performed against boom's mario and fox, plus how well sekirei does in japan, I really think that there's always good options that every character has in any given matchup that can push you to win if you don't get greedy and you execution is good (aka avoiding approaches with attacks/positions that have the most remote chance of putting you in danger).
 

clubbadubba

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idk. after seeing how jousuke's link performed against boom's mario and fox, plus how well sekirei does in japan, I really think that there's always good options that every character has in any given matchup that can push you to win if you don't get greedy and you execution is good (aka avoiding approaches with attacks/positions that have the most remote chance of putting you in danger).
when did jousuke play boom? damn i'm out of it.

*** link > usa link

And yea if you play perfectly I would agree any character can be good.
 

UNKN{OWN}iXi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Messages
458
Move away from N64 controllers? Yes, Xbox 360 controllers are infinitely better than N64 controllers. For Smash? Well, that's a mental barrier many people face IMO. Also, offline emulator. Combining those two might help a lot of people out with the tourney scene and the obvious controller issues faced with the N64. Also, cheats, timer apps, etc.

Problem is how stubborn people are when that might be the best/easiest solution. Been saying it for years and I even think several people support it, but it has to be a change either welcomed by everyone or forced by a TO with a substantial payout. There's a lot to discuss here, but I'm merely a single voice with no authority who can only make suggestions, so it's up to you guys to make the change (those running tourneys).
 

Combo Blaze

Smash Ace
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Jun 24, 2011
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****cago
Move away from N64 controllers? Yes, Xbox 360 controllers are infinitely better than N64 controllers. For Smash? Well, that's a mental barrier many people face IMO. Also, offline emulator. Combining those two might help a lot of people out with the tourney scene and the obvious controller issues faced with the N64. Also, cheats, timer apps, etc.

Problem is how stubborn people are when that might be the best/easiest solution. Been saying it for years and I even think several people support it, but it has to be a change either welcomed by everyone or forced by a TO with a substantial payout. There's a lot to discuss here, but I'm merely a single voice with no authority who can only make suggestions, so it's up to you guys to make the change (those running tourneys).
already discussed in a thread

reason why offline emulation sucks

- Not 100% correct to regular controller (mapping AND adaptor)
-mapping and stuff would cause time constrains
-changing between set ups in friendlies would be annoying
-losing a CRT+n64 set up > losing a laptop/pc.

thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/a-wacky-idea.368840/
 

McGodd

Smash Apprentice
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Watching Isai's link try his best against boom's falcon on DL only to fail most of the time really makes me question how good link can be.
I don't think Isai's link is the most Link can be developed. As somebody else mentioned there's a Japanese link that does quite well, and Jouske's Link even in (U) version did exceptionally well against Boom on DL.

I think there's quite a bit of potential in the lower tiered characters that hasn't been unlocked because the reward to time ratio is pretty ridiculous. Top tiers are easier to develop and you'll see results quicker so people have generally gravitated towards them. We need more low tier heroes duuuudes.
 

asianaussie

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in neutral link has lots of potential, his aerials are all really solid and his projectiles are pretty much the best in the game at controlling the opponent on multiple levels, but neutral is not all there is to it

once you're in his face he just gets overwhelmed and he's the definition of fragile if the hit was anything more than glancing - even his best gtfo is made worse by the fact his jump takes much longer to start than most jabs etc, and if people start abusing this (fox already does this by default) then link cannot afford to ever fail in the neutral game, or shield ever - it's even worse since you can grab airborne opponents in this game, unlike standard fighters, and grabs lead to death in a bunch of relevant matchups

also, when discussing japanese link i think his most important buffs are the faster b-air and obviously the recovery

stronger u-tilt is nice but is arguably a nerf against characters like pika and kirby, who get killed by u-tilt > f-air/up-b at percents that u-tilt hits too high to combo into in J - you sometimes have to edgeguard these guys after you hit them high, which kinda sucks
 

Herbert Von Karajan

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Dont use japanese ness or link to talk about potential in U version

ness's uair kills kirby at like 55% on the middle platform of DL

link is an entirely different character
 

KeroKeroppi

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in neutral link has lots of potential, his aerials are all really solid and his projectiles are pretty much the best in the game at controlling the opponent on multiple levels, but neutral is not all there is to it

once you're in his face he just gets overwhelmed and he's the definition of fragile if the hit was anything more than glancing - even his best gtfo is made worse by the fact his jump takes much longer to start than most jabs etc, and if people start abusing this (fox already does this by default) then link cannot afford to ever fail in the neutral game, or shield ever - it's even worse since you can grab airborne opponents in this game, unlike standard fighters, and grabs lead to death in a bunch of relevant matchups

also, when discussing japanese link i think his most important buffs are the faster b-air and obviously the recovery

stronger u-tilt is nice but is arguably a nerf against characters like pika and kirby, who get killed by u-tilt > f-air/up-b at percents that u-tilt hits too high to combo into in J - you sometimes have to edgeguard these guys after you hit them high, which kinda sucks
ewww go back to the social thread

i don't like when you make serious posts
 

Probalo

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Tech skill is something that many 64 players lack. If more people would practice tech skill, this community would become a lot more interesting.
 

caneut

Smash Ace
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Nov 4, 2013
Messages
945
Tech skill is something that many 64 players lack. If more people would practice tech skill, this community would become a lot more interesting.
Ybombb beats up little kids in Toronto with jiggly, pretty much requiring no tech skill to beat them. Tech skill is not something this community is going to rapidly pick up.
 

BananaBolts

I find you quite appealing
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I practice my 64 tech skill every day in training mode for 2-3 hours. I've advanced greatly and learned a lot from smashboards but I'm limited by a crappy controller. I can't always get accurate inputs with what I'm using but I'm currently on the lookout for a new controller. Anyways, I'm about to play PM with a guy from computer science. At least I'll get some more PvP experience :/
 

Shears

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disproving indeterminism
I practice my 64 tech skill every day in training mode for 2-3 hours.
Kids these days have so much free time. I play once a week for 2-3 hours and thats only because I just recently started organizing weekly tournaments. Even when I was in college I never had the time to play that much. In fact, that may be a reason the 64 community has such pitiful tech skill, most of the players in the community don't have the time. 64 is easily one of the oldest communities in smash, not because the game is older but the average age of players is older. Granted its smaller but I think age has more to do with it. Most people in 64 are either in college or out of it already with careers limiting the time they have to spend on the game. Many have girlfriends or tinder dates and just can't fit 64 practice into their schedule or find the time to travel to tournaments and such.
 

BananaBolts

I find you quite appealing
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Kids these days have so much free time.
No, I'm currently taking full time college courses with plenty of homework and extra crap to do. I FIND TIME.

Edit: I also have a girlfriend. We've been dating for 2 and a half years now. We'll probably get married in a couple of years.
 
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Sedda

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yeah i think that no matter how busy you are, you can always find the time. it just depends on how important it is to you. maybe you have other hobbies that take priority over smash
 

The Star King

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People need to understand that parrying can be read and played around just like anything else - although it's harder with some characters than others (lolsamus). Sheer parries less than he used to for a reason (and no, it's not because he's less technical). Some people learned to play around it.
 

jimmyjoe

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cool thread Firo. I agree that these characters can definitely thrive in a more technical community, and I think if people go back and look at our progress since APEX2012, it's obvious we are definitely getting more technical as a community. Think about the players who haven't improved since then and where they would place at APEX 2015.

Also definitely don't think we should use emulators for the reasons comboblaze mentioned, but controllers have already, and will eventually become even more of an issue. I think we will have to use 3d printing to fabricate sticks, use reparable/modifiable pads like the Hori(you can swap most modern analog sticks into this with some soldering knowledge), or make adapters for other analogue stick controllers to eliminate our control errors. I'm not sure where i really stand on the keyboard/controller debate, but I respect the skill of those who I know have put a ton of work into honing their skills that way(SK, Killer, Bane) so I'm cool with them getting into console.

Firo I think you should go link at COA on saturday :chuckle:

Seriously though, Firo's link was bodying me the other day.
 

McGodd

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People need to understand that parrying can be read and played around just like anything else - although it's harder with some characters than others (lolsamus). Sheer parries less than he used to for a reason (and no, it's not because he's less technical). Some people learned to play around it.
Parries seem like quite the double edged sword. It's such an obviously useful tech skill but at the same time if somebody anticipates it with a top tier character it can end up putting you in a pretty bad situation. I don't think parries (or more parrying at least) is the answer to pushing yoshi to a higher level technically.


in neutral link has lots of potential, his aerials are all really solid and his projectiles are pretty much the best in the game at controlling the opponent on multiple levels, but neutral is not all there is to it
This is a really interesting post, dude, definitely made me think more about my stance on link as a character. My ideas regarding the character are without a doubt more centered on the neutral game and I always forget the fact that he gets absolutely destroyed at the lightest touch. He definitely has minimal viability in the current metagame, but I can't help but think he's a lot MORE viable than other bottom/low tier characters. The potential for mixups, approaches, and defense with two projectiles and some disjointed hitboxes seems like it could just be so much more brutal to play against than it generally is.

I always say if he had a slightly better recovery I'd be willing to put more time into him.
 

asianaussie

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link still gets wrecked by everyone yoshi and above on the tier list, he just has to take so many more risks than his opponent in neutral and has problems against pressure in general

he's ok vs most other characters though, even on DL
 

Herbert Von Karajan

Smash Lord
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Banned from 64
the only technical skill this community needs is to be able to play with 1 hand

then you can money match melee **** in 64 saying you will play with one hand, then with the other hand you can flip them off and let them know how ****ty the collective skills of their community is.
 

Studstill

Smash Ace
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807
I can play with one hand.
Hint: Position so you can always attack to the right.
 
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