Charizard Tactical Discussion

[Bestiarius]

I need to try that 61% combo. Do you everyone on whom it works; does not work? Who?

 

[CoonTail]

It honestly works on everyone because the 45% Rock smash causes them to get smacked around in the boulders fragment animation leaving everyone to be followed up on immediatly(They get stuck in the circle of the boulder getting smahsed by fragments for almost a full second)...you have to be a pick quick but honestly U-smash follows up rocksmash way to well IMO and I use this tactic all the time. I know this works on MK because I do it alot and when you start an MK vs PT match with the MK at 61% you better be ready for an angry *** MK.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Many people seem to like Rock Smash -> grab, but I always feel compelled to Rock Smash -> U-Smash.

I guess it's just a reflex for me.

 

[typh]

i'm in the rocksmash upsmash base

it's looks too cool

 

[Miles.]

rocksmash fsmash is **** tooooo

but rocksmash upsmash just feels right.


^____________^

who needs chain grabs with 2 hit 60% combos?

 

[Steeler]

i hardly use rock smash grab now because usmash catches them no matter how they DI the rock smash

 

[T-block]

Yeah I use Rock Smash -> u-smash more...I really only grab when Charizard has nice grab release options on the other character.

 

[Asa]

rocksmash to fair works well too near an edge

 

[Charizard92]

I actually don't use rock smash much (for the fact that it isn't a move you can spam).

I also use Fair quite a lot. this is for two reasons:

1: I don't know of any techniques for lining up bair, so I typically use that only when the opportunity presents itself
2: it is a pretty good KO move. Sure, it isn't that reliable, but I use it often to push back recovering opponents (which is when they try to DI towards you, since both you and land are in the same direction).

 

[Vermy]

So you're a "Charizard Expert" who doesn't use Rocksmash. I'd lol but I'm afraid I feel just too awkward.

To quote Reflex, Rock Smash is "one of the most spammable moves in the game".

If you aren't kidding about not using Rock Smash then I'm about 10x more awkward.

Fair is very situational. Its not a "KO move" as such, its a gimp move. The sour spot does 4% iirc, and has NO KNOCKBACK. Glutton for punishment much? Unless Charizard is offstage or near the edge, you probably shouldn't use it.

In conclusion, Rocksmash is ****, and fair should not be spammed.

 

[Miles.]

I spam fair with Dragon Dance.

 

[Bestiarius]

I'm gonna have to go with Vermy on this one. Rock Smash is totally ****. It is Charizard's trump card. While you shouldn't be spamming it constantly, it is a very spammable move. It is also one of the most, if not the most, hard hitting moves in the game. It does more damage with one hit than any other move, and it also has killer knockback if you're using it as a KO move.

Fair, on the other hand, is not spammable. It is a great move, but only if used correctly. Like Vermy said, sour spot only does 4% with 0 knockback. You said it's not very reliable, but it is; you just have to use it right. If you sweet spot it, which isn't all that hard, it has great knockback and is amazing for gimping.

And, btw, if your opponent is offstage, you can line up a bair really easily. It has good knockback and it can also spike.

I thought Dragon Dance was a Yoshi AT. Isn't it?

 

[Miles.]

Dragon Dance is a Move Tutor move.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm gonna have to go with Vermy on this one. Rock Smash is totally ****. It is Charizard's trump card. While you shouldn't be spamming it constantly, it is a very spammable move. It is also one of the most, if not the most, hard hitting moves in the game. It does more damage with one hit than any other move, and it also has killer knockback if you're using it as a KO move.

Fair, on the other hand, is not spammable. It is a great move, but only if used correctly. Like Vermy said, sour spot only does 4% with 0 knockback. You said it's not very reliable, but it is; you just have to use it right. If you sweet spot it, which isn't all that hard, it has great knockback and is amazing for gimping.

And, btw, if your opponent is offstage, you can line up a bair really easily. It has good knockback and it can also spike.

I thought Dragon Dance was a Yoshi AT. Isn't it?

The degree of spammability depends on the character, really. Certain characters don't have excellent shields or out-of-shield options or approaches, and Rock Smash spam is quite good in those situations. It's relatively safe and deals obscene damage--why -wouldn't- you spam it at times?

As for F-Air, it's fairly spammable with Dragon Dancing, I've found.

Dragon Dancing is just a term used for taking advantage of your auto-cancelled aerials. As such, it's a universal AT for all characters--it's just that it's especially good for Charizard. A shuffled F-Air (short-hop, immediate F-Air, fastfall) is actually close to lagless, and you can easily do it again, turn around and B-Air, D-Tilt, or grab if they try to approach. Just stay in motion and try to keep an attack out at all times--it's rather nice, I've found.

(The Yoshi AT you're referring to is the Draconic Reverse, I think, which is the equivalent of a Melee wavedash in use. It's completely different from Dragon Dancing.)

 

[Bestiarius]

So, just short hop, fair immediately, and fastfall? Sounds sick. I've been out of the loop for waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So, just short hop, fair immediately, and fastfall? Sounds sick. I've been out of the loop for waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long.

Yeah. Good range, and it's all done in a pretty fast animation. Safe stuff.

 

[Bestiarius]

Sweet. In terms of frames, how fast is pretty fast?

 

[CoonTail]

Yea please give frame data because if this works the way is said I already know a hell of alot of uses for this then.

 

[Bestiarius]

I mean, is it so sick that Charizard could just fair somebody all the way across a stage and off the edge where he could pwn them to their doom?

 

[Charizard92]

So you're a "Charizard Expert" who doesn't use Rocksmash. I'd lol but I'm afraid I feel just too awkward.

To quote Reflex, Rock Smash is "one of the most spammable moves in the game".

If you aren't kidding about not using Rock Smash then I'm about 10x more awkward.

Fair is very situational. Its not a "KO move" as such, its a gimp move. The sour spot does 4% iirc, and has NO KNOCKBACK. Glutton for punishment much? Unless Charizard is offstage or near the edge, you probably shouldn't use it.

In conclusion, Rocksmash is ****, and fair should not be spammed.

True, and I'm not kidding. Something that I have found almost instantly (and not taken up by anyone else despite the fact that I said this dozens of times) is that Rock smash just fails on all regards of a spam move, lacking range, quick execution, and/or safe use (Rock smash is extremely limited range, slow, and requires strategy to avoid being hurt yourself [it isn't that safe]). Don't feel awkward. My words of advice on rock smash almost (if not) always falls on deaf ears.

Also, under the circumstances that I use Fair, it is kind of like a gimp move.

And This is before I heard about Dragon dancing (and to be fair, I don't short hop as much since my primary jump button is the control stick [I don't admit skill, I only say that I'm above average {to keep my hopes down to avoid becoming a sore loser}])

 

[IThinkAboutIvysaur]

Rock Smash is awsome. It's spammable. As long as you don't do it mindlessy.

 

[Miles.]

I like chasing people near the top of the screen with Charizard and either Up B or Rocksmash them for early kills.

 

[Katakiri]

I mainly use Rock Smash to ensure a "safe" recovery or to scare my opponent into backing off. Gotta admit that seeing Charizard coming at you from the air with a Rock Smash ready is scary stuff to most characters. I personally, onstage, prefer the range of Flamethrower over Rock Smash since they're both "get away from me" moves.

Admittedly, I use Fly onstage more than Rock Smash at high percentages. Fly kills light characters like G&W & Kirby at about 100% and has that nice super armor. I use it like Marth's Down-B. Seriously, using the super armor to cut through attacks like G&W's Bair AND kill them is just so good.

Saur.

 

[Ishiey]

I like chasing people near the top of the screen with Charizard and either Up B or Rocksmash them for early kills.

This x a lot. Although people can DI out of upB It's kinda useful OoS, but you might as well go with usmash I suppose.

Also, rocksmash can be very safe against some characters, the counter ability is superb.

 

[IThinkAboutIvysaur]

B^ killing sucks because you're screwed when you miss and people can indead DI out of it.

 

[Charizard92]

That and there are about 7 or so moves that can kill more reliably.

(Dtilt, Ftilt, Bair, Fair, Dair, Usmash, and Rock smash)

 

[Vermy]

UpB SA out of obvious meteors. (Falco, Ganondorf)
Watch your opponent's frustration as you hit them THROUGH their meteor.

 

[Bestiarius]

Smashing meteors ftw!

Btw, anybody else agree with me on this? Charizard is a beast at killing/gimping people once they are off the stage. This is how I see it:

1. Two Spikes
2. Sweet-spotted fair has sick knockback
3. Rock Smash destroys characters who recover too high.
4. Flamethrower is a beast for gimping anybody who is just barely off the edge.
5. I know fsmash hits people hanging onto the ledge, and I would think that dtilt, ftilt, and dsmash would too.

Plus, Charizard has many attacks with great knockback. Most of these have really good range (ftilt, dtilt, fthrow, bthrow, dthrow). These could be used to push opponents off and then Charizard would have all those gimping options. Does anybody try to use Zard like that? Am I wrong anywhere?

 

[Steeler]

the bair spike is the best way ever ever ever to gimp with charizard because it's the weakest spike in the game and no one should ever die to it

other than flamethrower on like fox/falco as they are up bing, that's pretty awesome

 

[Toby.]

Pretty sure that the best way to kill someone is grab->grounded release, making them fall of stage->single jab to steal their jump / force them to drop helplessly for a moment->bair stagespike.

Mostly only good against fastfallers, but still. It's the the very best.

 

[Bestiarius]

I agree that that is totally awesome ftw, but can somebody answer my 2 questions? Please?

 

[Miles.]

B^ killing sucks because you're screwed when you miss and people can indead DI out of it.

That and there are about 7 or so moves that can kill more reliably.

(Dtilt, Ftilt, Bair, Fair, Dair, Usmash, and Rock smash)

up b is one of zards best kill moves, its easily second or third.

 

[Charizard92]

Wait, what ARE your two questions Bestiarius?

 

[Vermy]

Does anybody try to use Zard like that? Am I wrong anywhere?

I believe these were his 2 questions. You're pretty much spot on. That's the main idea of Charizard. Nothing I can see "wrong" per se, but Fsmash is....well...its like Ike's. Not many uses for fsmash.
1. You're reading an opponents spotdodge out of a ground release,
2. their shields broken
3. your opponent is stupid enough to just hang on the edge while a giant orange dragon storms in, rearing up for a rather obvious fsmash.
Other than that, I don't use it.

Although, Ftilt edgeguard is a lot more amazing than credit is given for. Angled down especially. Follow up with one if they try to SDI out of the flamethrower and watch the ****. Follow up with some offstage **** while you're at it =p
Bair sourspot>dair is a decent setup, as is well timing a nair or hyphen smash while your opponent is trying to get back on stage.

 

[Steeler]

zard fsmash is good for people about to land on the ground. it gets like x1.5 more range if you stutter step it correctly

 

[PkTrainerCris]

zard fsmash is good for people about to land on the ground. it gets like x1.5 more range if you stutter step it correctly

THIS

Sometimes i make char walk away from the oponent, and when they chase they find chorozord performing an fsmash to their face!!!! :D... this is highly punishable if predicted.. but its such a crazy move that noone should predict it
And that works with pivoting ftilts too

 

[Charizard92]

Fsmash is OK. I think it has super armor and it can hit someone at mid range. It is worse than rock smash on the spam worthiness though (and this is my view of Rock smash spam worthiness, which is incredibly low)

 

[Miles.]

Fsmash is OK. I think it has super armor and it can hit someone at mid range. It is worse than rock smash on the spam worthiness though (and this is my view of Rock smash spam worthiness, which is incredibly low)

No super armor.

 

[T-block]

obligatory charizard expert remark

i hit someone with a fully charged f-smash today after mindgaming his recovery lol

 

[Miles.]

obligatory charizard expert remark

i hit someone with a fully charged f-smash today after mindgaming his recovery lol

I hit havok with fully chaarged fsmash today and he died at lik 87 (after the hit) so he had to hvae been at like 60?


havok > who you played.

so my fsmash is better.

and on video.

he still beat me though haha get ***** meeeh



i suck tho, you are much better than me tblock


you just build those blocks up and knock them the **** down.


**** the building blocks t spin a room boom tomb.


o **** my names t block

i have a big....sock

for my big fooot for kicking hella ***

dont give me no sass


or you will eat my FSMASH!!!