Ryusuta
Smash Master
This genuinely surprises me.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO
- Thread starter Bomber7
- Start date
SSJ5Goku8932
Smash Lord
CO18, are you thinking of DDD lol?
I have to say that Charizard is the best.
He can live for a long time, and if you manage to get the first stock, then you can try and rack up damage on Falco.
Also, when you die, you get to switch to Squirtle
.
I have to say that Charizard is the best.
He can live for a long time, and if you manage to get the first stock, then you can try and rack up damage on Falco.
Also, when you die, you get to switch to Squirtle
.
Squirtle starter. Hit, run and crawl.
Can't really hydro anything except for maybe dsmash as lasers will interrupt if they know what you're doing. Dsmash might be low enough not to get lazor'd. Stay aerial but keep away from the edges for fear of the dair twisty bird killy thing. Dair>ultit lock helps if you can pull it off. Stay in his face and then run away. That's your safest bet. Apart from that, dthrow and fair will prolly be gettin your kills.
Ivy does ok. Return fire with razor leaf, and approach with bair. BS when the opportunity presents itself, its the only way you'll keep up with the damage you'll get from Chaingrabs. Vinewhip will get you back from dthrow>dair, unlike the other 2 pokemons upb. Bair/nair>fsmash/ftilt will annoy falco players, as EVERYONE underestimates ivysaur. So being combo'd by her is quite intimidating. If they phantasm on to the stage too high, try to predict where they'll land and hit the usmash. Vinewhip and fair to keep them offstage. Falcos aren't generally used to playing vs us. They won't know anything but "ivysaurs crap lol".
And as reflex said, you can meteor cancel. Falco's dair is predictable, especially after being cg'd the whole length of the stage. Just hit jump when you expect the spike. Its tricky, but its something you need to learn.
Zard will be hurt. A lot. Falcos cg loves his fat *ss and so do lasers. Be cautious on rsmash because the reflector can send the debris back at you, leaving enough hitstun for falco to retaliate. Not much else I can think of right now....
Squirtle: 50-50
Ivy: 55-45 in falcos favour
Zard: 60-40 in falcos favour
60-40 overall
Can't really hydro anything except for maybe dsmash as lasers will interrupt if they know what you're doing. Dsmash might be low enough not to get lazor'd. Stay aerial but keep away from the edges for fear of the dair twisty bird killy thing. Dair>ultit lock helps if you can pull it off. Stay in his face and then run away. That's your safest bet. Apart from that, dthrow and fair will prolly be gettin your kills.
Ivy does ok. Return fire with razor leaf, and approach with bair. BS when the opportunity presents itself, its the only way you'll keep up with the damage you'll get from Chaingrabs. Vinewhip will get you back from dthrow>dair, unlike the other 2 pokemons upb. Bair/nair>fsmash/ftilt will annoy falco players, as EVERYONE underestimates ivysaur. So being combo'd by her is quite intimidating. If they phantasm on to the stage too high, try to predict where they'll land and hit the usmash. Vinewhip and fair to keep them offstage. Falcos aren't generally used to playing vs us. They won't know anything but "ivysaurs crap lol".
And as reflex said, you can meteor cancel. Falco's dair is predictable, especially after being cg'd the whole length of the stage. Just hit jump when you expect the spike. Its tricky, but its something you need to learn.
Zard will be hurt. A lot. Falcos cg loves his fat *ss and so do lasers. Be cautious on rsmash because the reflector can send the debris back at you, leaving enough hitstun for falco to retaliate. Not much else I can think of right now....
Squirtle: 50-50
Ivy: 55-45 in falcos favour
Zard: 60-40 in falcos favour
60-40 overall
or start with squirtle then when Squirtle is at a high %, kill Ivy off to get to Charizard. but you know, that's just a suggestion.CO18, are you thinking of DDD lol?
I have to say that Charizard is the best.
He can live for a long time, and if you manage to get the first stock, then you can try and rack up damage on Falco.
Also, when you die, you get to switch to Squirtle
No, that could work. Tcranter taught me to "sacrifice" Squirtle in the matchup vs Marth, and its really effective. In the same sense you get to choose when you die, Falco gets cocky, and you get to use the two pokemon who are useful in this matchup. Dthrow at medium/high percents would be optimum, so ivy can do some damage and not be completely useless.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
I used to intentionally call out a "sacrifice" Pokemon during certain matches. I think it's a valid strategy, but only so far as it goes. It's better to have a plan for using ALL of them.
So, I guess what it's coming down to is whether Falco should be changed to Squirtle only, or Squirtle/Charizard. There are some valid statements here and there for starting Ivysaur, but not nearly as many.
Bear in mind that this isn't a voting process. Whoever makes the most convincing case(s) will resolve who starts against who.
So, I guess what it's coming down to is whether Falco should be changed to Squirtle only, or Squirtle/Charizard. There are some valid statements here and there for starting Ivysaur, but not nearly as many.
Bear in mind that this isn't a voting process. Whoever makes the most convincing case(s) will resolve who starts against who.
Canvasofgrey
Smash Ace
I don't recommend Charizard unless you are very evasive and defensive as Charizard since his size results in good ol' fashion co-co-combos!
If you're confident in landing Utilt-lock, then start with Squirtle. But I recommend playing defensively since Squirtle can't be lazered. Squirtle is a good choice in my opinion.
Ivysaur is another good choice since he can't be spiked, or at least die from it very early on. Unfortunately, he can be lazered since his crawl sucks. But Ivsyaur does have defensively means otherwise to endure Falco assuming you keep him within mid-range.
If you're confident in landing Utilt-lock, then start with Squirtle. But I recommend playing defensively since Squirtle can't be lazered. Squirtle is a good choice in my opinion.
Ivysaur is another good choice since he can't be spiked, or at least die from it very early on. Unfortunately, he can be lazered since his crawl sucks. But Ivsyaur does have defensively means otherwise to endure Falco assuming you keep him within mid-range.
T-block
B2B TST
I know it's been said, but it isn't too hard to avoid the CG with Squirtle. As long as you're playing carefully for the first 40% or so with properly placed aerials, starting Squirtle shouldn't be too dangerous. If the Falco is overly eager to land the grab, you can definitely bait that and use it to your advantage too. When I play against Falco, 90% of the time I'll be past CG percents by the time I get grabbed. It's also possible to get a gimp kill if you manage to take his second jump. I always start Squirtle against Falco....u-tilt lock is too sexy.
Toby.
Smash Master
Just a small point - It's good to use all 3 pokemon but if you have a really REALLY bad matchup like the squirtle : marth one, there really isn't anything to be gained from using squirtle for a whole stock.
That entire stock consists of one grab from marth, then the inescapable chain grab to spike.
Somtimes I think we get too caught up in thinking that using all three pokemon is the best bet, and forget the fundamental points of the matchup itself.
But please, continue.
After all this is just who is best to start with. Reflex makes a good point in his post, about everything he said, including about Ivysaur.
When it would come to me, I'd be comfortable starting with any of the 3 because, well I'm fine that the way I use them would be somewhat effective against the Falco players I sometimes fight. I know I'm not that good of a player, but when I get in the zone and I'm performing at my best, once, my momentum kicks in, there really isnt much a falco can do. I know, I played falco for fun last summer just to see what it was like and he was a fun guy to play as though, I was disappointed with his speed and attack speed, and other traits like that. Otherwise he was fine. Besides, like I said, no falco player is God, they will not necessarily kill you in less than a minute with 3 CG to spikes. You'd have to be the worst player on the planet for that, or be totally ignorant to the game as to not know how to avoid attacks or just plain out you let them purposely let them do it and flat out didnt even try. It seems like most of you have a fear of that happening when you know that it wouldnt happen with any of you.
We really need to come to a conclusion. So far seeing from what has been said I can only make out this, and no this is not a voting process, I'm just making a debate to confirm that Orion's chart is accurate.
All 3- 10%
Squirtle alone- 45%
Squirtle + Charz- 45%
even though this is true, like Reflex said, the most convincing or factual point that is made will dictate what Starting pokemon(s) goes against falco.
I'm still for all 3 going up. You have to throw in the factor that not all people start with Squirtle like me so their unbelievably best pokemon could be one of the other two. I know the falco match up is bad however keep in mind that this is just starting, we want to keep it a bit flexible due to the fact that all of us have a different purpose for them or have different strategies. However I dont find Faclo the same as Ditty where it's undeniably obvious that Squirtle must be the only one to start up the match.
When it would come to me, I'd be comfortable starting with any of the 3 because, well I'm fine that the way I use them would be somewhat effective against the Falco players I sometimes fight. I know I'm not that good of a player, but when I get in the zone and I'm performing at my best, once, my momentum kicks in, there really isnt much a falco can do. I know, I played falco for fun last summer just to see what it was like and he was a fun guy to play as though, I was disappointed with his speed and attack speed, and other traits like that. Otherwise he was fine. Besides, like I said, no falco player is God, they will not necessarily kill you in less than a minute with 3 CG to spikes. You'd have to be the worst player on the planet for that, or be totally ignorant to the game as to not know how to avoid attacks or just plain out you let them purposely let them do it and flat out didnt even try. It seems like most of you have a fear of that happening when you know that it wouldnt happen with any of you.
We really need to come to a conclusion. So far seeing from what has been said I can only make out this, and no this is not a voting process, I'm just making a debate to confirm that Orion's chart is accurate.
All 3- 10%
Squirtle alone- 45%
Squirtle + Charz- 45%
even though this is true, like Reflex said, the most convincing or factual point that is made will dictate what Starting pokemon(s) goes against falco.
I'm still for all 3 going up. You have to throw in the factor that not all people start with Squirtle like me so their unbelievably best pokemon could be one of the other two. I know the falco match up is bad however keep in mind that this is just starting, we want to keep it a bit flexible due to the fact that all of us have a different purpose for them or have different strategies. However I dont find Faclo the same as Ditty where it's undeniably obvious that Squirtle must be the only one to start up the match.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
What I believe this calls for is a bullet-point analysis of what each of them bring to the table. If everyone posts - from their perspective - what advantages are to be gained from starting each Pokemon, we can sort out the most commonly agreed-upon ones and glean from those advantages who of the three make the best choice(s).
I just want a solid conclusion. I want to be able to point out the reasons why [enter pokemon name here] is a good choice to start against falco. So far it seems our argument revolves around the Chain grab, really doesnt tell people much.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Which is exactly why I want everyone to individually create bullet points as to why they think their choice(s) make the most sense as a starter. We can discuss those bullet points as they're posted.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Sometimes these discussions take time. We knew that going in. If people are hesitant to reach a consensus, that's all the more reason not to rush things, or else we'll pull a Backroom and release flawed information just for the sake of posting something. Let's put Falco through its proper paces and give the discussion the time needed.
I suggested bullet points in order to focus discussion, so let's work in that direction.
I suggested bullet points in order to focus discussion, so let's work in that direction.
Wii4Mii 99
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2007
- Messages
- 1,859
Although I probably won't put much input into future discussions, and I'm probably just repeating what others have already said, but I just wanted to say that of course his CG will get much attention. It's one of his main methods of racking up damage, as well as getting that spike at the end of it for a K.O. Of course, there does come a time where we must consider things other than the CG, so I agree with you there.
SSJ5Goku8932
Smash Lord
SQUIRTLE
ADVANTAGES
*Has that nasty Utilt
*Beats Falco in the air and can out speed him on the ground
* Lasers do not affect him as much as the other 2
*He can be very hard to grab
* He can Gimp Falco pretty well
* Squirtle can rack up damage more easily
DISADVANTAGES
* He is very light, so the 50% from the CG can REALLY hurt him.
*Falco can prove a worthy match in the air with his Bair
*He can prove much trouble with his jab and Ftilt on the ground.
* Squirtle still has to approach
*Falco can kill Squirtle more easily.
Any objections or additions for Squirtle?
ADVANTAGES
*Has that nasty Utilt
*Beats Falco in the air and can out speed him on the ground
* Lasers do not affect him as much as the other 2
*He can be very hard to grab
* He can Gimp Falco pretty well
* Squirtle can rack up damage more easily
DISADVANTAGES
* He is very light, so the 50% from the CG can REALLY hurt him.
*Falco can prove a worthy match in the air with his Bair
*He can prove much trouble with his jab and Ftilt on the ground.
* Squirtle still has to approach
*Falco can kill Squirtle more easily.
Any objections or additions for Squirtle?
T-block
B2B TST
My Squirtle list would look like SSJ5Goku's, although I don't think Falco's b-air is enough to make him a "worthy match". Squirtle can still outmaneuver Falco.
I'm too lazy to make a list for the others, and other people can come up with better lists than I can, so I'll just comment on theirs xP
I'm too lazy to make a list for the others, and other people can come up with better lists than I can, so I'll just comment on theirs xP
PkTrainerCris
Smash Ace
Another pro for squirtle: You can sacrifice ivy specially if shes not your best pokemon
A con : If you do bad as squirtle you will die when falco is still at low, and ivy can be lazered-chaingrabbed-gimped for a quick two-stock losing, and its not like charizard can do a good comeback on those conditions...
A con : If you do bad as squirtle you will die when falco is still at low, and ivy can be lazered-chaingrabbed-gimped for a quick two-stock losing, and its not like charizard can do a good comeback on those conditions...
heres what I have to say:
Squirtle
basically what everyone has said about him concerning his speed and agility
Ivysaur
-can break up laser spam with a well approach with razor leafs
-once in range can catch falco in a lock of moves like Nair, ftilt and bullet seed.
-if second jump is saved, wont have any trouble when recovering from a CG to Spike
-decently mobile, imo more than falco
-could possibly instant tether ledge if falco tries to recover by shooting straight for the ledge
cons:
-possibility of early gimp
Charizard
-can take punishment
-can rack up damage well with flame thrower
-if the strategy calls for it, charz can kill falco, for he is a durable starter
-rocksmash can be useful against falco for a good damage/knock back attack
-aerials are decent to help gain momentum
-with two other jumps saved, can definitely survive the CG spike
cons:
-a bit on the slow side (however running or gliding if you want to call it that will make up for it)
-can do nothing against laser spam but do best to approach(with caution)
-will possibly take massive amounts of damage due to heavyweight attributes
I cant really think about anything else from there, if anyone adds something and it makes since, I will be happy to agree with them
Squirtle
basically what everyone has said about him concerning his speed and agility
Ivysaur
-can break up laser spam with a well approach with razor leafs
-once in range can catch falco in a lock of moves like Nair, ftilt and bullet seed.
-if second jump is saved, wont have any trouble when recovering from a CG to Spike
-decently mobile, imo more than falco
-could possibly instant tether ledge if falco tries to recover by shooting straight for the ledge
cons:
-possibility of early gimp
Charizard
-can take punishment
-can rack up damage well with flame thrower
-if the strategy calls for it, charz can kill falco, for he is a durable starter
-rocksmash can be useful against falco for a good damage/knock back attack
-aerials are decent to help gain momentum
-with two other jumps saved, can definitely survive the CG spike
cons:
-a bit on the slow side (however running or gliding if you want to call it that will make up for it)
-can do nothing against laser spam but do best to approach(with caution)
-will possibly take massive amounts of damage due to heavyweight attributes
I cant really think about anything else from there, if anyone adds something and it makes since, I will be happy to agree with them
T-block
B2B TST
imo Charizard can definitely deal with Falco, but chances are you're gonna take a decent amount of damage in the process with Falco's lasers/combos... not something you really want at the beginning of the match when you have a better option in Squirtle.
SSJ5Goku8932
Smash Lord
Maybe I am overraing Bair a bit.
Charizard can gimp Falco badly.
Fair and Flamethrower.
Charizard can gimp Falco badly.
Fair and Flamethrower.
Fair won't catch him, he'll recover. Flamethrower's good on the ledge, but you can't edgehog fast enough. Fair might work at higher percents, but you'd be best off Dairing through his Phantasm.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
You haven't had much experience with Charizard's forward air, have you?
fair could actually knock back a character like falco pretty far from my experiences using it. You just have to experience it just right. ^^' it's one of those things I'm going to have to master for LasT Smash 3. However if you space it right it's like WHAM! Enormous knick back that you didn't know you had lol. It's always like that for me since my spacing with that move is bad. however back air I'm decent with spacing. I'd say I tip a good 60%of the time, maybe a little more. But at least I can tip often as compared to fair lol.
The question is, "Who is the recommended lead Pokemon in this matchup?"
The answer is obviously Squirtle against Falco, but, eh.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
I'm not certain the answer is quite so cut-and-dry.
Then let me explain it for you.
Squirtle is the only Pokemon of the three that can chain attacks relatively easily against Falco. U-Tilts and U-Airs are your best friend. Watch out for B-Air and D-Air, and you'll outplay him in the air in general. You have a jab that rivals his in usefulness, which is a big part of the matchup. Water Gun can help with edgeguarding by forcing him to land on the stage and get punished. A D-Throw KO isn't too hard to land, and if you KO the opponent first (which is what you should be counting on), you can switch to Ivysaur and try to tack on damage before you die, bypassing Ivysaur's KO trouble.
Ivysaur's aerial movement is completely destroyed by constant N-Airs and jab -> grab attacks by Falco. Bullet Seed is unsafe if you miss, and Falco's weight tends to make him get hit out of range of the important part of it. It's hard to deal with Falco in close combat as a result, so you're forced to try to outspace, which is difficult as lasers are a constant annoyance. Razor Leaf sparingly, as it can get reflected. If anything, Ivysaur has the potential to rack up damage, but the biggest problem is that Ivysaur cannot land a KO move on Falco.
Charizard takes the most from a single grab; getting chaingrabbed off the stage pretty much forces you to Up-B onto the stage, where you eat a D-Air. That's about 70% right there. It's quite easy for Falco to chaingrab you, D-Air you into the ground, jab -> grab, and get another throw. Once again, N-Air and jab stuff makes it hard to land a lot of stuff. Flamethrower can be good, as can Rock Smash, but for Rock Smash, be careful about getting it reflected into your face. Lasers hurt Charizard the most, since he is the largest target.
MaTA
Smash Ace
squirtle can crawl under lasers too
It's not so much about landing a killing move it's more or less having Ivy fit the recommended strategy against Falco, otherwise the stuff about the bullet Seed, I can agree on though you get that same risk with everyone.
Charizard yea, I will agree with you on that. however what are the chances of severely being chain grabbed if you can space him if you are good with flamethrower? Also with characters that can reflect, you just have to use rock smash wisely. Otherwise, I see no reason why Charizard shouldn't be choice to start.
I like the idea that Ivy can start to however, the CG Spike could end Ivy early. That is relatively my only concern. Ivy can break up laser spam with a well approached razor leaf, though you have to stay aware that it doesn't get to be too spammy or it will be reflected, if you manage to keep the use of razor leaf under control when approaching and if he uses reflector, if you manage to be in distance then a good Nair-follow up should work just fine, as far as Ivy's use goes, you could just use him for racking up damage. All if would take imo is maybe one or two well placed bullet seeds (however I suggest using it as a follow up like after a nair), and then switch to Charz for the kill.
If worst comes to worst, the most I can see us getting out of this is having Squirtle and Charizard to start. Squirtle, for his agility and speed + tilts, and Charizard for his uncanny ability to take loads of punishment, to lock falco in a flamethrower and well, I find his move set to be quite satisfactory when fighting falco, despite the fact that CG will be a problem for him.
Also, if any factor comes in that would change our decision e.g. showing that Ivy would also be a good addition to start, then this chart can be changed. same with any other match up.
Charizard yea, I will agree with you on that. however what are the chances of severely being chain grabbed if you can space him if you are good with flamethrower? Also with characters that can reflect, you just have to use rock smash wisely. Otherwise, I see no reason why Charizard shouldn't be choice to start.
I like the idea that Ivy can start to however, the CG Spike could end Ivy early. That is relatively my only concern. Ivy can break up laser spam with a well approached razor leaf, though you have to stay aware that it doesn't get to be too spammy or it will be reflected, if you manage to keep the use of razor leaf under control when approaching and if he uses reflector, if you manage to be in distance then a good Nair-follow up should work just fine, as far as Ivy's use goes, you could just use him for racking up damage. All if would take imo is maybe one or two well placed bullet seeds (however I suggest using it as a follow up like after a nair), and then switch to Charz for the kill.
If worst comes to worst, the most I can see us getting out of this is having Squirtle and Charizard to start. Squirtle, for his agility and speed + tilts, and Charizard for his uncanny ability to take loads of punishment, to lock falco in a flamethrower and well, I find his move set to be quite satisfactory when fighting falco, despite the fact that CG will be a problem for him.
Also, if any factor comes in that would change our decision e.g. showing that Ivy would also be a good addition to start, then this chart can be changed. same with any other match up.
you can't space too well with charizard when you are getting lasered like ****.
why is falco so gay
yeah i personally always use squirtle first but i know that some people prefer charizard in this matchup.
i cannot see any reason to ever start with ivysaur, that's the poke you want to use as infrequently as possible here.
why is falco so gay
yeah i personally always use squirtle first but i know that some people prefer charizard in this matchup.
i cannot see any reason to ever start with ivysaur, that's the poke you want to use as infrequently as possible here.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Don't act like a condescending prick, thanks.
T-block
B2B TST
Chill Sir Orion ._. It wasn't even that condescending.
To those that are arguing for Charizard start, I'm sure a lot of us see your point that Charizard can hold his own against Falco.... but the point is that Squirtle is the better choice to START. Squirtle has a much easier time getting around lasers and avoiding the grab than Charizard does, and it's not exactly good for your momentum when at the beginning of the match you take >50% while unable to do anything for a good ten seconds.
Of course I understand that it depends on the person etc etc. If your Squirtle sucks, by all means go Charizard, but this topic isn't really supposed to take into account the individual skill level, is it?
To those that are arguing for Charizard start, I'm sure a lot of us see your point that Charizard can hold his own against Falco.... but the point is that Squirtle is the better choice to START. Squirtle has a much easier time getting around lasers and avoiding the grab than Charizard does, and it's not exactly good for your momentum when at the beginning of the match you take >50% while unable to do anything for a good ten seconds.
Of course I understand that it depends on the person etc etc. If your Squirtle sucks, by all means go Charizard, but this topic isn't really supposed to take into account the individual skill level, is it?
what is this i don't even
i'm just going to leave it at that lol
does anyone have serious objections to squirtle only?
Squirtle start, is pretty much unanimous.
*Squirtle starts
*crawl to avoid birdy going "pew! pew!"
*birdy does not want
*hithithit, kill
*iiiiiiii'm a turtle. ^_^
*die eventually, you should not have taken Falco's bread.
*Defensive/spacey Ivy
*Bullsh*tseed x2
*kill? And switch.
Or
*bthrow/fsmash at mid/high % to switch.
*I'm a potplant-frog ^_^
*due to high% Zard avoids the cg>spike.
*There is rejoicing in the streets, due to the above statement
*ROCKSMASH BLAAARGH!
*FLAMETHROWER FWAFFFF!
*Fair gimps, woo.
*I'm a dragon, rawr. ^_^
*dies
*Squirtle's back, repeat previous steps, except don't die.
*I'm a turtle.
=)
THE END!
And that's the story of the pew pew spacebird against the crazy man with 3 enslaved reptiles who sends then to hit peoples.
*Squirtle starts
*crawl to avoid birdy going "pew! pew!"
*birdy does not want
*hithithit, kill
*iiiiiiii'm a turtle. ^_^
*die eventually, you should not have taken Falco's bread.
*Defensive/spacey Ivy
*Bullsh*tseed x2
*kill? And switch.
Or
*bthrow/fsmash at mid/high % to switch.
*I'm a potplant-frog ^_^
*due to high% Zard avoids the cg>spike.
*There is rejoicing in the streets, due to the above statement
*ROCKSMASH BLAAARGH!
*FLAMETHROWER FWAFFFF!
*Fair gimps, woo.
*I'm a dragon, rawr. ^_^
*dies
*Squirtle's back, repeat previous steps, except don't die.
*I'm a turtle.
=)
THE END!
And that's the story of the pew pew spacebird against the crazy man with 3 enslaved reptiles who sends then to hit peoples.
PkTrainerCris
Smash Ace
Squirtle start... he does better than zard on low percents....
I think we can move on now
I think we can move on now
I genuinely apologize; I didn't realize that I typed it out how it sounded.