COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[kupo15]

We might as well post our entire discussion here lol. I think you are blowing it way out of proportion shanus

 

[shanus]

Those two amount to most of the discussion anyway.

I gave it playtime and I hated it. And I'm not blowing it out of proportion with the juggles. I literally was playing with shortline for a while and it was absolutely ridiculous what I could pull off against ROB and Dorf among others. He couldn't do anything about it except when he timed the wiggle perfectly. It wasn't even funny when I was juggling him that hard. I didn't even like doing it and I was the player winning! In contrast when I was MK, or fox, or diddy, etc, I could escape easily due to the lower hitstun and a stronger aerial. It was a mammoth nerf to a significant portion of the cast.

But we have had this same post back and forth like twenty times so I'd rather not again lol

 

[Dark.Pch]

That hit stun is brawl+ is the only problem I have with it. if they could just tone it down it be fine.

 

[kupo15]

But we have had this same post back and forth like twenty times so I'd rather not again lol

I forgot to respond to something in your post before

Because often getting hit when you lose your second jump leads to your death?

Not necessarily

Or you predict the air dodge and punish them from there? Plain and simple you've gotten hit, exited hit stun meaning you have failed to capitalize on hitting your opponent again. Why should I be punished AGAIN for an opponent who failed to combo me further?

The combo game should not rely on "true combos" which only occur in the hitstun phase like you are promoting. You also have strings which don't register as true combos but when chained together are considered apart of comboing. Without this code, strings suffer. So I wouldn't say that you failed at comboing when they exited hitstun because comboing isn't only limited to "true combos", I think of it more as a punishment to the aggressor for not being able to work with anything off of connecting with a hit

If you truely escaped hitstun after getting hit, then why even have the tumble if it serves no purpose? Its obvious that it does serve an important part to the combo game if you enable this code It is an extension to the combo game by still limiting your defensive option (air dodging) until you reach a neutral state which btw, is not hard to obtain.

Without this code, the combo game really reflects vbrawls combo game a little where your momentum is lost right after hitstun ends (due to being able to air dodge) thus putting a strong emphasis on true combos. Not only this but, strings based solely off of waiting for the air dodge makes the game slow and is uninteresting as opposed to this with the inclusion of proper strings. If your character isn't made to have a lot of true combos if any, then you suffer from it.

The community deserves to see what we talk about as well. We may be in the broom, but its still their game as well and shutting them out and only talking amongst ourselves doesn't sound very good.

I also enjoy the fact that ganon doesn't get punished for using his up b anymore. This code fixes this move's glitch as well as adding new and exciting addition to the punishment game.

@Peach. Yea I totally agree but no one is listening when I posted that in the broom. Why don't you experiment with it and report back? I'm already at .48

 

[Sanu]

I'm so conflicted. It sounds like "No AD in tumble" would be a better idea but I haven't had the chance to test either.

Guess today I'll be testing with the No AD in tumble code... assuming someone brings a Brawl disc to the fest.

 

[kupo15]

I'm so conflicted. It sounds like "No AD in tumble" would be a better idea but I haven't had the chance to test either.

Guess today I'll be testing with the No AD in tumble code... assuming someone brings a Brawl disc to the fest.

I would recommend bring hitstun down to at least .481, .48 if your brave or else you will have the same initial bad experiences as shanus has.

I'm not going to deny that its weird and gives you a trapped feeling at first. Its no different than adjusting to having hitstun (its not nearly as strong as hitstun) except it should take much less time

 

[Dark.Pch]

who is in charge of this stuff in the backroom

 

[kupo15]

^^That's a good question. It appears that there are some leaders who took charge before I got in there and act boss-like some of the time, but I know my power is limited because I don't control any plussery threads to update

 

[shanus]

And kupo, the tumble serves a purpose. At lower %'s you can tech out of it. There's its purpose. Tons of combos happen right now after the opponent has exited histun even without your code in it. Its obvious in a lot of the matches on youtube, my stream, and just to anyone. This code isn't some miracle avenue for new combos in brawl, it instead holds your hand making offense even stronger (which it doesn't need to be) and acts as a psuedo replacement for hitstun. It removes an option of air dodging which you as the attacker can punish if you read it (i.e. use MK nair, falcon nair, ROB nair, etc).

It also doesn't reflect vBrawl combo'ing whatsoever. I think my sig alone shows that.

Furthermore, there is no denying the fact that it is severely detrimental to many members of the cast without good options for defense from below. This is the biggest problem with this code.

Let us not forget that FF tumble and No AD tumble combine together for a nice 18 lines for a feature which limits your options after you have exited a combo. I removed those codes and now have the fancy new Teching system code which has fixed teching in Brawl, our single greatest complaint we have been receiving.

The community is what decides the fate of this code, but the overwhelming opinions I've received in PMs and in the IRC have been for a shift away from this code. That is why I'm so vocal about it. Call me bossy all you want, it doesn't matter to me, I'm just voicing the innate inefficiencies of this code.

Also, as an aside:
Dark.Pch, I know you have been playing against mostly CPUs so thats why you might think its too low. Lord Karn and others demonstrated that you can buffer ADs against a lot of simple things like uthrow to uair with sonic at those lower values.

 

[kupo15]

And kupo, the tumble serves a purpose. At lower %'s you can tech out of it. There's its purpose.

When you can air dodge out of tumble, how does that enable teching when teching requires tumble?

This code isn't some miracle avenue for new combos in brawl, it instead holds your hand making offense even stronger (which it doesn't need to be) and acts as a psuedo replacement for hitstun. It removes an option of air dodging which you as the attacker can punish if you read it (i.e. use MK nair, falcon nair, ROB nair, etc).

I think having a larger hitstun and basing your combos off of that instead of a lower hitstun that allows for true strings holds your hand more. But that's just me.

It also doesn't reflect vBrawl combo'ing whatsoever. I think my sig alone shows that.

Your sig shows off the wonders of true combos which is not affected in the slightest. What about strings? I find it hard to believe how this code does nothing or else I wouldn't be debating this.

Furthermore, there is no denying the fact that it is severely detrimental to many members of the cast without good options for defense from below. This is the biggest problem with this code.

Based on what proof? Surely a large hitstun value like .4865 will definitely hurt people more as it helps those who have better true combos. This code addresses the other half of the cast that can't rely on true combos and helps them out.

Let us not forget that FF tumble and No AD tumble combine together for a nice 18 lines for a feature which limits your options after you have exited a combo. I removed those codes and now have the fancy new Teching system code which has fixed teching in Brawl, our single greatest complaint we have been receiving.

I use teching code as well as these two codes

The community is what decides the fate of this code, but the overwhelming opinions I've received in PMs and in the IRC have been for a shift away from this code.

The community complained about a lot of things in the past that we included anyway and now they like it. This point means nothing


You sound like your advocating more for the true combos over the strings which are equally as important. I have also tested this stuff out in doubles as well which is more crazy and found nothing as detrimental as you claim it to be shanus

 

[Sanu]

Oh lawd, looks like I opened up a demon with that post.

Still in agreement with Kupo. Tonight will ultimately be the deciding factor however.

 

[Ulevo]

shanus, I'm not going to argue for or against this code, as I have already done so. However, you claim that characters have significant difficulty with this code unless a player wiggles out of tumble immediately... That's... very, very easy to do. I just thought I would point that out.

 

[Sanu]

Out of curiosity: Why was the FF while tumbling code developed? I don't recall being able to FF while tumbling in Melee o_o... maybe because you could jump out of tumbling in Melee so I rarely let it happen.

I just don't see why that code exists XD

 

[Dark Sonic]

That hit stun is brawl+ is the only problem I have with it. if they could just tone it down it be fine.

You have to realize that not everybody combos as well as Peach or Metaknight. Some characters really do need the higher hitstun values in order to even string 2 or 3 hits together.

For example, Sonic loses his ability to combo from upthrow on lower hitstun values (he already can't combo from any of his other throws btw), he loses his ability to combo into bair entirely (from anything really) and overall he just loses all of his kill combos (and reverts to vBrawl status of having so much trouble killing because his kill moves aren't good enough by themselves). If we do that then we're going to have to spend more lines buffing him (since that really would break him).

I'm sure the same would happen to other characters too (especially those that rely on auto cancels for combos or those with very narrow windows for their current combos.

 

[GHNeko]

shanus, I'm not going to argue for or against this code, as I have already done so. However, you claim that characters have significant difficulty with this code unless a player wiggles out of tumble immediately... That's... very, very easy to do. I just thought I would point that out.

I think what he means by that is the extra time that it takes to wiggle so you can AD is the problem because that extra serves as a sort of yellow light to offense while hitstun is a green light, and nontumble/nonhitstun is a red light to offense.

I do see where he is coming from, though I can't offer much input because I skipped the No AD during tumble because of it's melee-esque value. From what I'm reading now as well, it powers the offense and makings juggling more frequent. We really don't need to buff the offense. It's in nice balance with defense in my opinion.

This might not be good for the image of Brawl+. It'll look like the days of early B+ with the high hitstun and everything being juggled. Plus isnt the mechanic too foreign to be added into Brawl? Everyone who plays Brawl and Brawl+ is used to being able to AD out of tumble. Just like the No AD during tumble. There are cons and pros, but what should be really taken into consideration is how it makes Brawl+ look. Something as foriegn as this could turn off more players than turn on. Just like WDing. It wasnt a required mechanic in B+. It has its cons and pros. But the image it gave the project was ultimately negative.

It seems No AD during Tumble is traveling down the same path. :/

 

[shanus]

When you can air dodge out of tumble, how does that enable teching when teching requires tumble?

Turn off the new tech code and turn off the No AD Code. You can still tech. Maybe you just have bad timing. The new tech code works even better than the old too, invalid point.

I think having a larger hitstun and basing your combos off of that instead of a lower hitstun that allows for true strings holds your hand more. But that's just me.

Play against good players. Not like a gamer's club or randoms like that. Choose ROB or someone like that. Now play against MK, or diddy, or fox as examples with your code on. Good luck. (BTW those matchups are not bad for ROB normally, watch how badly he gets juggled now). We both know how to use the jiggle system, we were both melee tourney players. And our matches without the code were generally down to the last stock high percent. All those chars with crappy dairs went from close matches to a blowout

Your sig shows off the wonders of true combos which is not affected in the slightest. What about strings? I find it hard to believe how this code does nothing or else I wouldn't be debating this.
Based on what proof? Surely a large hitstun value like .4865 will definitely hurt people more as it helps those who have better true combos. This code addresses the other half of the cast that can't rely on true combos and helps them out.

Watch my stream or my youtube watches when I upload more. Count how many 0-deaths you see or true combos beyond 3 hits you see. Not that many. Most of my kill combos are from strings, so don't be ridiculous. You call me out for hyperbole whereas this previous post reeks of it.

Let me make a fun analogy here. You are on a track with an olympic sprinter (fox) and a guy in a wheelchair with big arms (ganondorf). You give them the go ahead to start the race, but right as the race starts the sprinter goes and takes off one wheel off the wheelchair (your code). However, the sprinter tries to be nice and gives him a little head start (hitstun before the tumble). After the wait, the sprinter runs off ahead and starts doing laps around the track passing by the poor guy in the wheelchair who is just trying to move away but he can't. The guy in the wheel chair wants to do something in this race and tries to jump or knock over the sprinter as he comes by, but gets easily outpaced by the sprinter. (lol I laughed thinking about this)


I use teching code as well as these two codes.

Yeah, but you removed Bowser Buffs and MK Flimsy armor for it. So lets review here for a sec. You nerfed Bowser, buffed MK, and then nerfed all the heavies to get juggled by MK and others too? Sign me up!

The community complained about a lot of things in the past that we included anyway and now they like it. This point means nothing

Didn't you just say before you'd let the community decide? But when they didn't like it you'd want to do it anyway?

You sound like your advocating more for the true combos over the strings which are equally as important.

No, I'm saying strings are very apparent without this code. This just takes the term of true combo and makes tumble almost analogous to hitstun for many chars.

Read the red above.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^You mean like hitstun, no auto sweetpots, shieldstun, and pretty much every single change ever introduced to brawl+?

 

[Unseen_Killa]

I'd just like to endorse Shanus's opinion on the no AD during tumble code, I find very foreign and it changes the game too much, juggles become WAY stronger and it'll totally suck to play as, say Bowser and get ***** ALL day in juggles.

It also makes combos much less creative, anybody can jump and uair all day.

 

[Sanu]

ALERT

Could someone send me the 3.3 Codeset without the FF tumble, replaced by the new techning code? Not the text file, the actual code itself. All I request is that all of the recently updated codes replace the old codes. The reason I'm asking is because I have the code manager on my laptop but I'm going to be putting the codes on my SD card at my friend's university right after I finish work in 40 minutes. I'm not sure if they're going to block access to the code manager at his school or if I'll even be able to find it, so this is a 100% way to get the codes on...

I'd really appreciate if anyone could do this for me. Otherwise, my buds are going to get a botched version of Brawl+ that no one is ever going to try other than them T_T.

The only other option is linking me to the Code Manager right now so I can send myself the compiled codeset. Anyone know where to get it? It might even be blocked by my work's proxy...

 

[CountKaiser]

Ya know, no one complained about being able to AD out of what would be a string.

So why are we introducing this completely foreign and unneeded mechanic into something that wasn't broken anyway? Makes no sense.

Also, this seems to buff offense even more, which is not to our best interest. Brawl+ already sees a good balance of offense and defense as is. Buffing offense even more is not needed.

Combos and strings are fine as they are now. No need to introduce odd mechanics to make them OP.

Kupo, why do you constantly feel that the offense in this game is never enough? I've noticed that some of the recent changes you are advocating involve game mechanics buff offense a bit. Why?

 

[Sanu]

Anyone know where to get the code manager? Only 30 minutes left <_>. I can't search for it since I'm at work.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i strongly believe that before we introduce any significant changes to the overall metagame, we should really focus on the fundamentals. as it stands, no one has ever complained about people being able to AD out of tumble. not once have i heard that, in fact, i have heard quite the contrary regarding the issue; brawl+ as it stands has a reputation for allowing people "being able to up tilt 8 times in a row". although this is a completely erroneous accusation, you have to realize that any major change to the defensive part of a game will always have a negative response. hitstun was our first hurdle, and over time people have accepted it even though to this day we are still having issues with it; people want it lower, higher etc. with the no AD during tumble you are giving brawl+ yet another hurdle to overcome which wasn't necessary at all since there are people who played melee professionally that have never complained about this.

kupo i have noticed a trend with your code suggestions, you take it upon yourself to get codes made that you yourself believe are necessary without any consent from your fellow peers and then expect OTHERS to explain why we don't need it. you lay upon us the burden of proof. it is up to you to bring forth evidence to support your claim. i really do appreciate the initiative you take to try to bring new things to the table; your camera code is great, but you really should bring forth your ideas to not only those close to you but your community before you have codes made.

 

[GameSystem]

http://wiird.l0nk.org/dl/codemgr1.1.zip Sanuzi, did you mean that?

 

[Sanu]

Yes, thank you! =)

 

[sagemoon]

I have to say this project has come a long way. I'm impressed.

 

[SketchHurricane]

The community complained about a lot of things in the past that we included anyway and now they like it. This point means nothing

What? You basically just stated that the community opinion means nothing in the wake of your own superior opinion. Nice one.

kupo i have noticed a trend with your code suggestions, you take it upon yourself to get codes made that you yourself believe are necessary without any consent from your fellow peers and then expect OTHERS to explain why we don't need it.

Looks like I'm not the only one that noticed.

As for the debate itself, I'm going to have to side with Shanus on this. If it's literally impossible to wiggle-AD faster than you can regular AD, then these supposed "strings" you are trying to buff are actually true combos anyway.You are created the exact same environment by lowering hitstun to compensate for no AD in tumble. The net effect is that you simply have an extra step in the way of your AD. This is exactly the kind of useless tech skill that got L-cancel replaced with ALR. You said that this is different because there are situations in which you would want to do something other than AD, but that's not true. Having to wiggle the stick has nothing to do with said other options, it's only effect is on AD itself, which is made harder because of it.

 

[CloneHat]

From what I've seen, Kupo seems to be the only one who enjoys the no AD code, everyone else is either impartial or hates it. Why is not air dodging better? It's just annoying. And what's this about wiggling the control stick? This isn't Mario Party.

Come on, why don't we use code space to BALANCE OUT THE GAME instead of creating obscure gameplay changes. Let me remind you that we're trying to make Brawl better, not create a totally different game on its foundation.

 

[MK26]

Is it possible to add immobility frames to the techjump animation? Or will that screw with the wall tech jump?

 

[Alopex]

That was the cruelest analogy ever, Shanus. How could you?

And who's [Nuke]? What was his significant contribution? I haven't been gone that long...

 

[Almas]

Nuke is the creator of GeckoOS.

The AD in tumble code is very heavily disputed. I personally don't like it, but my say isn't that significant. We'll have to see if it gets used.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Better yet, can someone make a vid of techjumping so I can see wtf were talking about? Thanks

 

[Finns7]

What codespace lol...well until (if) gecko 2.0 comes out.

How is the new teching code?

@DarkPeach Hitstun is fine. It was the tumble trust me. Im a pretty good brawler and I play decent brawlers offline. After 2 months of Brawl+ 8.5 seems right...sometimes slighty, slightly to little. With a better teching code and more experience alot of these "true" combos being reported in are not true at all, there just horrible DI and missed techs

 

[CloneHat]

Almas, who's going to decide it? I thought this was a community project. Is the verdict just going to drop from the heavens at some unspecified time?

 

[Almas]

If the heavens do feel motivated to provide an answer, then I'll gladly accept it.

Failing that, it's currently under discussion on the Brawlplusery board. Both sides have fully argued their case, so it's devolved into making derogatory comments about each other's mothers.

... Joking, of course. But a decision will be made. For the time being it's likely to be removed in favour of extra codespace, but we may be getting an extension sooner than anticipated. In this case, a vote will be made.

 

[CloneHat]

A vote starting now?

EDIT: Sorry I'm being so pushy, but I think these weird gameplay changes may turn away some vBrawl players who a thinking of switching. I still use 3.2 because my friend is coming over to play for the first time and I want him to know what's going on.

 

[The_Guide]

I was just messing around with the ids for specials that spunit just posted, and I just realized something interesting. When you speed up Yoshi's Up-B, he can actually get height out of his recovery, instead of just delaying his fall. There must be a timer on it, though, as you cannot do this infinitely. At a setting of x2, I think he gets a bit less height than Fox's Up-B. This makes his eggs too fast, though, so I'm going to go test some smaller values...

 

[Alopex]

CloneHat, using 3.2 means you're using a version that has a broken Jump/Grav code. If you want the best codeset for your friend to try out without the Tumble things, the best thing to do is use the current 3.4 and just remove those codes from the text file.

 

[kupo15]

Play against good players. Not like a gamer's club or randoms like that

The gamers club have good people that play also. They all don't suck and don't claim to know what kind of skill goes on there. I did say some were bad but last I checked, some does not mean all! This also doesn't take into account the non regulars

Didn't you just say before you'd let the community decide? But when they didn't like it you'd want to do it anyway?

I do want to show of the discussion with the community, but sometimes we all need a little push. This really happened when the plussery started. People were basically forced (for lack of a better word) with joining the plussery even with codes they didn't agree with.

No, I'm saying strings are very apparent without this code. This just takes the term of true combo and makes tumble almost analogous to hitstun for many chars.

It sounds to me people are tried to play the game with the No AD tumble in the mindset that the code wasn't even on thus relying on old strategies that gets shot down (obviously) then trash it.

CountKaiser[/url]]
Ya know, no one complained about being able to AD out of what would be a string.

Did you know my friends (who don't post() and myself complained about it before the code? Didn't think so.

So why are we introducing this completely foreign and unneeded mechanic into something that wasn't broken anyway? Makes no sense.

This whole project introduces nothing but foreign elements so this is not a good point at all. I bet you if we introduced this code in with hitstun, no one would be complaining like they are now.

No need to introduce odd mechanics to make them OP.

This won't make anything OP and what makes no sense is how you think so

Kupo, why do you constantly feel that the offense in this game is never enough? I've noticed that some of the recent changes you are advocating involve game mechanics buff offense a bit. Why?

Because it isn't. Its still defensive oriented and slow.

kupo i have noticed a trend with your code suggestions, you take it upon yourself to get codes made that you yourself believe are necessary without any consent from your fellow peers

What do you mean without consent? How the hell do you know what I do when I'm not talking to you? Cape, shanus, leaf, project-05, giza and select few other people I have talked to about the tumble codes before making it and also gave me the go to request it. Sorry if your not on the "in" of everything I do.

and then expect OTHERS to explain why we don't need it.

So let me get this straight. If there is a code that I think would be helpful to the game and it gets made, I'm supposed to find ways to shoot it down instead of finding ways to support it? Makes tons of sense

you lay upon us the burden of proof. it is up to you to bring forth evidence to support your claim

.
How did I make you guys come up with the reason for it? Did you not read my first post on the subject?
See my camera videos online, see my meteor canceling videos online, see that giant post that started this that you apparently skipped

i really do appreciate the initiative you take to try to bring new things to the table; your camera code is great, but you really should bring forth your ideas to not only those close to you but your community before you have codes made.

Maybe I don't trust a lot of people's opinions? Practically the whole community was against the hitlag code like how they are with this except for a few people. Turns out I was right in asking for the code. So should I trust the people who didn't know what they were talking about more than those who do?

What? You basically just stated that the community opinion means nothing in the wake of your own superior opinion. Nice one.

I by no means said that my opinion is superior in every way. I merely stated how sometimes the community can be wrong as its shown itself to be so in the past. Just because you are a majority, doesn't mean you are right.

If it's literally impossible to wiggle-AD faster than you can regular AD, then these supposed "strings" you are trying to buff are actually true combos anyway.

Umm, no its not. You can still attack out or jump out in the same time it would take you to air dodge which would ruin the string anyway.

This is exactly the kind of useless tech skill that got L-cancel replaced with ALR. You said that this is different because there are situations in which you would want to do something other than AD, but that's not true.

What is wrong with you guys thinking that you are forced to wiggle out? You make it seem like this code IS the hitstun code that requires you to wiggle out to do anything! You just can't air dodge but its no means the only way to escape and it is not always the best option in all situations. I repeat because no one seems to get this. "Wiggling out is not the best option at all times" So tell me again how this is exactly like L canceling when L canceling is the best option at all times and wiggling is not?

Having to wiggle the stick has nothing to do with said other options, it's only effect is on AD itself, which is made harder because of it.

Yes, the other options to break away from a combo are untouched which means you are not forced to wiggle out every time. So how is this like l canceling? Last I checked, there was only one way to l cancel and the outcome never changed but with this code, there are 4 options to escape combos, jump, attack, wiggle and AD, fast fall tech. So this really is the same as l canceling?

CloneHat]
From what I've seen, Kupo seems to be the only one who enjoys the no AD code, everyone else is either impartial or hates it. Why is not air dodging better? It's just annoying. And what's this about wiggling the control stick? This isn't Mario Party.

No I am not the only one who enjoys it. Just because people don't post doesn't mean they don't like it.

Come on, why don't we use code space to BALANCE OUT THE GAME instead of creating obscure gameplay changes. Let me remind you that we're trying to make Brawl better, not create a totally different game on its foundation.

Maybe because this makes the foundation of the game better?

I'm done with this debate because people for several reasons. You guys are really blowing this out of proportion with saying things like this:

It also makes combos much less creative, anybody can jump and uair all day.

and the overall responses of how OP this is when it really isn't. I've played teams and FFAs with this code and have not run into the problems you guys face in 1v1

I still believe this is a great addition and when gecko 2 comes out, expect this to be brought up again but its obvious that I can't argue right now with the line constraints and how unchanging people are right now

 

[SketchHurricane]

Yes, the other options to break away from a combo are untouched which means you are not forced to wiggle out every time. So how is this like l canceling? Last I checked, there was only one way to l cancel and the outcome never changed but with this code, there are 4 options to escape combos, jump, attack, wiggle and AD, fast fall tech. So this really is the same as l canceling?

Let me try to understand your main point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the sole purpose that you are extending to this mechanic is that it will make strings harder to get out of. If you want to get out of a string as soon as possible, you airdodge, because it's your fastest option.

No AD in tumble effectively makes your airdodge slower by requiring an extra input. So basically, you are proposing a nerf to specifically the AD option of getting out of combos. You propose that this will buff characters that rely on strings for a lack of effective true combos. Am I reading into this correctly?

You must realize that this not only buffs strings, but combos across the board, since true combos may now be extended when they turn into strings. Are you ok with this? What you should really be doing is proving examples where X character benefits from this code and how, while also showing how good combo characters don't get even better.

Just trying to help you out man, since there's clearly more evidence against why this is necessary.

 

[SketchHurricane]

I was just messing around with the ids for specials that spunit just posted, and I just realized something interesting. When you speed up Yoshi's Up-B, he can actually get height out of his recovery, instead of just delaying his fall. There must be a timer on it, though, as you cannot do this infinitely. At a setting of x2, I think he gets a bit less height than Fox's Up-B. This makes his eggs too fast, though, so I'm going to go test some smaller values...

Really? Cuz that would mean that it goes MAD far lol