COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[K1T3]

No, the value I gave you was the value spunit said was the default value in Vanilla... I know... 4? I was surprised too.

So what are people liking now then?
Is the default so bad that it should be changed?
Well I can see that it's badish now but would be be so bad if there was increased shield raise/drop time or does decreasing this make it so that changing shield raise/drop time isn't even necessary?

 

[kupo15]

So what are people liking now then?
Is the default so bad that it should be changed?
Well I can see that it's badish now but would be be so bad if there was increased shield raise/drop time or does decreasing this make it so that changing shield raise/drop time isn't even necessary?

im trying 3 but yes, I think shield raise and drop are unnecessary now

 

[SketchHurricane]

Haven't read all the pages since your response, but I just wanted to respond myself quickly.

See, it's funny because you mock my "grace" comment and then your response highlights points I myself made. Which leads me to believe you didn't really understand what I meant at all.

I understand what you mean. I'm not totally disagreeing with you, which is why I echo some of your points.

It's pretty simple. Every character should be treated with the same amount of grace in terms of having everything at their disposal work properly.

If Diddy's recovery isn't working properly with ASL, we fix it.
If Falcon's UpB isn't working properly because of YES lag, we fix it.
If Snake's and G&W's UpB are not being returned to them after a grab, we fix them.

We give every character the grace of fixing what doesn't work properly first and foremost. That's the definition of unbiased development.

After we've ensured that, THEN we go and tweak, tone down, adjust things that need adjusting. We don't accept something that's broken as a shortcut to fixing a problem. That's irresponsible and lazy.

Nothing wrong there.

I get the feeling we're on the same page, Sketch, so I needed to clear up what being gracious meant in this context. Because you're mocking it without knowing anything about it.

As far as what could use a fix, we are on the same page. My post was simply to illustrate that it's not mandatory to go out of our way to fix things that don't break the character. We both agree that Diddy's recovery got broken, so it should be addressed. Where we disagree is that other less significant things, like YES lag for instance, should be weighted the same due to a concept of grace. Note that this is only because we have a lack of code space. In an ideal development environment, we would fix all these problems. But we don't, so it's OK to make judgment calls and not particularly necessary to halt the project because of a non game-breaking glitch. I'm not saying I don't give a crap about Falcon's problems, I'm just making the point, that is all.

EDIT: You're also misquoting me. I never wanted to remove DACUS. In fact my response post to kupo specifically stated that it's a valuable tool to several characters and needs to be kept. And I was the only one to use the word "grace" in this thread. So please read carefully before you misinterpret things in your responses.

I wasn't quoting you specifically there, it just happened to fall in line with what I was trying to say. I know that wasn't you.

Finally, I apologize for the mocking tone. Hope that clears up my side of the story.

 

[spunit262]

I just double check, and it is 8 not 4, that means the code on the first page doesn't change the PS window. This does.
C27ACF7C 00000005
2C030008 40800018
83FF007C 83FF0038
2C1F001A 40A20008
3860XXXX 7C7F1B78
60000000 00000000

That also means I have to fix the shield stun codes.

 

[kupo15]

I just double check, and it is 8 not 4, that means the code on the first page doesn't change the PS window. This does.
C27ACF7C 00000005
2C030008 40800018
83FF007C 83FF0038
2C1F001A 40A20008
3860XXXX 7C7F1B78
60000000 00000000

That also means I have to fix the shield stun codes.

edited

thanks!

 

[CyberGlitch]

Well, after reading though another slew of posts, the general consensus for values seems to follow these ranges (with a few exceptions). Hopefully this list will help us narrow down closer.


Down gravity 1-1.15: Many simply aren't willing to go higher than 1.15, I'm one of them, especially now a faster fast fall code is available.

Up gravity .95-1.05: There's the less floaty .95 and the recovery fixing 1.05. Values affect jump heights Generally, I find the default value the best compromise.

Fast fall 1.1-1.2: This will be a more difficult value to agree on, but on the plus side it doesn't really affect anyone's play mechanics negatively, so people should be able to adjust to whatever value's agreed on easily.

Dash speed 1.1-1.2: Testing is needed for this, to see what combos and such a 1.2 value sets up for. In the least a 1.1 value is generally accepted (I use the median, 1.15).

Hitstun 9-9.5% (4.9-4.95): A few prefer 8%, but most agree that 10% is now too much, most use 9-9.5 (I use 9.5).


Short hop modifier .9: Those that use the modifier generally use this value, but we seem to be split on whether this code should be in Brawl+ or not. We really need to discuss this code more (I find it changes Brawl significantly for the better for most characters).

 

[Dan_X]

Well, after reading though another slew of posts, the general consensus for values seems to follow these ranges (with a few exceptions). Hopefully this list will help us narrow down closer.


Down gravity 1-1.15: Many simply aren't willing to go higher than 1.15, I'm one of them, especially now a faster fast fall code is available.

Up gravity .95-1.05: There's the less floaty .95 and the recovery fixing 1.05. Values affect jump heights Generally, I find the default value the best compromise.

Fast fall 1.1-1.2: This will be a more difficult value to agree on, but on the plus side it doesn't really affect anyone's play mechanics negatively, so people should be able to adjust to whatever value's agreed on easily.

Dash speed 1.1-1.2: Testing is needed for this, to see what combos and such a 1.2 value sets up for. In the least a 1.1 value is generally accepted (I use the median, 1.15).

Hitstun 9-9.5% (4.9-4.95): A few prefer 8%, but most agree that 10% is now too much, most use 9-9.5 (I use 9.5).


Short hop modifier .9: Those that use the modifier generally use this value, but we seem to be split on whether this code should be in Brawl+ or not. We really need to discuss this code more (I find it changes Brawl significantly for the better for most characters).

I'm glad you've gathered these numbers, as I too have seen them thrown around quite a bit. It's funny, I didn't expect this, but in trying .95 up gravity I felt I was able to jump higher than usual. Is that correct? In general, I felt much more agile in the air. Not sure. I only played for 40 or so mins, and against a bot no less, but it was interesting. I actually liked it quite a bit. The next day however, I tried 1.05 and hated it. I felt that the characters fell too quickly, especially after weak attacks that would cause them to lay on the ground. The result was many hard to tech falling points in which the enemy would end up on the ground. I felt that this also hurt comboing as the enemy would actually fall away from you too quickly to fallow up.

So far, I guess I like the dash speed increase as I really haven't even noticed the increase, Thinking about it now, I wonder if I input the code correctly. It was only a slight increase, but still, I'm surprised I didn't notice a drastic change. Then again, perhaps that's because I wasn't testing, or looking for a change.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

the short hop code helps samus so much it's freaking unbelievable.. if anything give it just to samus!! XD

 

[Alopex]

Almas, leafgreen, kupo, Phantom Wings?, ladies and gentlemen, fellow members of the Brawl+ Brigade, it is my most humble pleasure to present to you all, esteemed colleagues...

The Mother Boys Abandon the Auto Sweetspot!

I hope you guys enjoy the video. It's extra special. XD




Also...

That also means I have to fix the shield stun codes.

What?
So... all the values and testing have to be redone? Oh man...

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

With 0.95 up gravity, you actually are jumping slightly higher. Recoveries are higher too. Sonic's is somewhere between half to a full body length higher.

I approve of all those values CyberGlitch listed, except for the down gravity one. I'm one of the, apparently few, people who prefer it on 1.2-1.3.

 

[izzy24]

After some examination of ASL, I'm inclined to agree. Some recoveries get gimped beyond use with it. It does not even appear possible to get back to the edge with Diddy. Others are unaffected by the code. And strategically I think it adds nothing. Edgeguarding becomes a zero-thought endeavor. It's too easy. There are other applications for ledge-teching. There's no need to have to use it every time to get back.

I'm also curious about the buffer code. What specifically was wrong with the buffer system to begin with?

Pit's edge game gets WRECKED (or DESTROYED) b/c of this as well...i Idk if its me or wat but i couldn't grab the edge with pit. Kupo do u have the same problem or is just me sucking?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Almas, leafgreen, kupo, Phantom Wings?, ladies and gentlemen, fellow members of the Brawl+ Brigade, it is my most humble pleasure to present to you all, esteemed colleagues...

The Mother Boys Abandon the Auto Sweetspot!

I hope you guys enjoy the video. It's extra special. XD




Also...



What?
So... all the values and testing have to be redone? Oh man...

FRIGGIN SWEET MAN!!! brings me back to smash64 days!

 

[Alopex]

If anyone is wondering why I singled out those names, it's only because they were the ones saying it couldn't be done.

 

[izzy24]

Oh...and BTW GAW is broken in B+ cause he can go shorthop dair on the ground to judgement 9 for the kill. ITS NICE

about the asl code...wouldn't the stage edge sliding code fix the problem for those characters instead of bouncing or exploding they would just slide towards the edge, just wondering?

 

[zxeon]

With 0.95 up gravity, you actually are jumping slightly higher. Recoveries are higher too. Sonic's is somewhere between half to a full body length higher.

I approve of all those values CyberGlitch listed, except for the down gravity one. I'm one of the, apparently few, people who prefer it on 1.2-1.3.

I won't go any lower than 1.2 fall gravity with a 1.2 fastfall.

 

[CyberGlitch]

With 0.95 up gravity, you actually are jumping slightly higher. Recoveries are higher too. Sonic's is somewhere between half to a full body length higher.

I approve of all those values CyberGlitch listed, except for the down gravity one. I'm one of the, apparently few, people who prefer it on 1.2-1.3.

Link's recovery (already very poor) is also significantly affected (IMO).

As far as the downward gravity goes, several members of this topic seem to make solid stands against a gravity higher than 1.15. This isn't a matter of compromise in this case , especially given the faster fast falls code (alternatively, as zxeon demonstrates, there may be members making the opposite stand, with 1.2 as a minimum, if others feel the same I'd like to hear it), You could go back and try to find the convo that argued about this, but I'll try to state the main points I remember:

1.) 1.2 Downward Gravity affects recovery too much (characters fall too fast while off the edge, can't travel as far horizontally. The higher gravity could favor characters with recoveries that send them higher upward--Sonic, Snake, ect-- while characters like Donkey Kong and Bowser are left with poor suited recoveries).

2.) Given that upward gravity cannot be increased because of specific recovery nerfs, the upward gravity and downward gravity differ too much and give Brawl an odd flow, even with the 1.05 upward gravity this is the case. The flow of gameplay is inconsistent. A value slightly lower, 1.1, is much more consistent with aerial movement.

3.) Combined with the fast fall speed increase, combo's are too potent (I personally don't remember what combos were mentioned). A hitstun alteration could be a fix for this.

4.) Increasing the fast fall speed does not alter recoveries while still giving characters an opportunity to move quickly downwards. This should be relied on for the faster air drops instead of gravity.

5.) This is not Melee, and attempts to make characters move like they did in Melee do not work with Brawl (the Melee lead weights, hehe). Brawl+ is expected to be more floaty.


I would add that the shorter short hop code also reduces the need for higher gravity, the less far you are from the ground the less gravity you need to bring you back down to get that attack in.

Of course, a number of these points are a matter of taste, and I'm just trying to get a general idea of what everyone is leaning toward. Any input is very welcome.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

Shorthop affects jump strength, so that's one factor that's nerfing jump height.

Downward gravity doesn't affect jump or recovery height at all, but since you fall faster, you have less time to attempt to recover.

Upward gravity only nerfs jump and recovery height when it's greater than the default value, 1. So people with it on 1.1 are nerfing jumps even more, but recoveries get nerfed along with it.

Just for testing purposes (not for actual use), it should probably be tested along with downwards gravity on high equal opposites, like 0.5 and 1.5 for up and down respectively. Equal high values should be tested also, like 1.5 for both.

 

[Almas]

I don't get why you scream 'gimped' over and over as if it makes people suddenly unable to recover at all. With 1.05 gravity, Sonic can still get back on the stage from a mile away. Characters like Link and Bowser have recoveries appropriate to their size (although I think Link should have his survivability increased somewhat). I think the recovery game is IMPROVED by the change.

Shorthops just really need shortening. Like, a lot. Shhfling was one of the techniques that revolutionized melee because it allowed a quick series of aerial attacks, making the combo game a lot more exciting. Low short hops produces a similar result at negligible cost.

 

[trojanpooh]

Regarding the debate around Diddy Kong, Brawl+ should be all about options. Individual people can play using their own rule sets if they want. Someone should fix Diddy and then it can be provided as an option. It may or may not become the tourny standard but no reason why the code shouldn't be offered.

 

[shanus]

I don't get why you scream 'gimped' over and over as if it makes people suddenly unable to recover at all. With 1.05 gravity, Sonic can still get back on the stage from a mile away. Characters like Link and Bowser have recoveries appropriate to their size (although I think Link should have his survivability increased somewhat). I think the recovery game is IMPROVED by the change.

Shorthops just really need shortening. Like, a lot. Shhfling was one of the techniques that revolutionized melee because it allowed a quick series of aerial attacks, making the combo game a lot more exciting. Low short hops produces a similar result at negligible cost.

some characters need critical timings on their shorthops, i.e. dorf, thats why. As much as shorter short hops sound nice, the window to make it shorter for a lot of important things (i.e., double fairs, thunderstorming, etc) is pretty small.

 

[shanus]

Almas, leafgreen, kupo, Phantom Wings?, ladies and gentlemen, fellow members of the Brawl+ Brigade, it is my most humble pleasure to present to you all, esteemed colleagues...

The Mother Boys Abandon the Auto Sweetspot!

I hope you guys enjoy the video. It's extra special. XD




Also...



What?
So... all the values and testing have to be redone? Oh man...

My good friend mains Ness in B+. He has stuck to the edges from many angles that showed just slightly changed. I think the ASL for them is just more generous as compared to other characters. No ASL affects them, but i think they have more possible grabbing directions that they can sweetspot from.

 

[MuBa]

Alright guys try my version of Brawl+

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2GUQW6H5

No Tripping
ACL
Hitstun (10%)
Faster Edge
Crouch Canceling
No ASL
Faster Falls
Stage Reversed (PK 2 and Wario Ware)
Hitlag Modifier
Short Hop/Dash Speed
Triple Jump Fix

-Sorry I couldn't find any space for the shield codes atm. What should I take out? =/
-Other than that enjoy the fast paced action :D
__________________

 

[Garde]

I just started using the default settings of Kupo's Brawl_.txt last night.

To be exact, so there's no confusion, these are my current settings, using the exact names from the Brawl_.txt file (I have no idea what the actual numerical value modifications are):
No tripping
no replay time limit
Auto l-canceling
hit stun
Lagless ledges
No ASL
No decay
up/down gravity
Stage reversed
Buffer
dash dancing
CD Hack
Triple Jump fix
Hitlag division
Shield gain
shield stun

Disclaimer: This is merely my opinion, and regardless of what I think of balance issues, I think you've done a great job at doing all this testing and modifying thus far.


At first, I was just messing around in training mode, but I started playing around against CPUs (haven't gotten to play live players yet), and something really stuck out to me. Having the No Decay on is just too ridiculous, imho. Also, the way the current hitstun is set seems FAR too long to be left completely incapable of avoiding attacks. Something has to be changed, because right now it's feeling a bit too much like SSB64 (where almost no one lives past 60-90%), except the moves in Brawl do way too much damage since there is no decay, and are too easy to combo, imho.

At first, I was okay with the ALC thing, but even that seems a bit much now that I've seen what some characters are capable of. Shield grabbing is impossible against most aerial attacks and I think it gives too much of an advantage towards offensive pressuring to those who have good SH heights. I think this could be solved by reducing the difference in frames (I believe it's at 50%, so maybe it should go closer to 60-70% of the actual number of frames to land).

Another thing that is a bit crazy to me is how much the characters slide. Is there some way to increase traction, because my Link is literally sliding all over the place even when I'm not using DACUS. I believe it was something that was just native to Brawl, due to the increased floatiness, and thus it might not be something that could be fixed without screwing over mobility. I still think it would be nice if the traction could be upped just a bit, though.

EDIT: On further evaluation, it seems as though the shield grabbing is only a problem with Zelda, Link, and ZSS, who all naturally have slow grabs. Shield grabbing is fine for the other characters with "normal" grab speeds.

 

[Deleted member]

so what hitstun do you use?

 

[gunterrsmash01]

What does the Dash Cancel code do exactly?

 

[CountKaiser]

It allows you to cancel the dash with a crouch, thus allowing you to perform any ground move from that point.

 

[Yeroc]

It lets you crouch during a dash, allowing a whole range of new approach options.

As a petty aside, I can't believe some people don't see this as necessary.

 

[Garde]

so what hitstun do you use?

There was no numerical value listed with it, but it's the one that comes in the Brawl_.txt file.

EDIT: Using the table in the first post, it appears as though it's 10%. I personally think it's a tad bit too much, but I think I've noticed something about how the hit stun works, though I can't say I've done any studies to prove it.

Anyway, it appears as though you can jump out of hit stun much earlier than most other manuevers. Because of this, characters with many jumps or floating (i.e. Pit, MK, Peach) can get out of hit stun earlier. I was trying to do combos that worked against most other characters against them, and they'd regain control of themselves while they were in range to hit me (I didn't even have to move, they'd just jump/float toward me and smack me while I was in lag from my attack). Can anyone else confirm this?

Also, I agree with Yeroc that dash canceling should be made part of the standard, it adds more mind games.

Another random thought is that making a single air dodge would make Zelda too good. If you burn your air dodge early and then she hits you with a Din's Fire, you're toast even if getting hit refreshes air dodges, unless the Zelda player's brain stops working.

 

[matt4300]

There was no numerical value listed with it, but it's the one that comes in the Brawl_.txt file.

EDIT: Using the table in the first post, it appears as though it's 10%. I personally think it's a tad bit too much, but I think I've noticed something about how the hit stun works, though I can't say I've done any studies to prove it.

Anyway, it appears as though you can jump out of hit stun much earlier than most other manuevers. Because of this, characters with many jumps or floating (i.e. Pit, MK, Peach) can get out of hit stun earlier. I was trying to do combos that worked against most other characters against them, and they'd regain control of themselves while they were in range to hit me (I didn't even have to move, they'd just jump/float toward me and smack me while I was in lag from my attack). Can anyone else confirm this?

Also, I agree with Yeroc that dash canceling should be made part of the standard, it adds more mind games.

Another random thought is that making a single air dodge would make Zelda too good. If you burn your air dodge early and then she hits you with a Din's Fire, you're toast even if getting hit refreshes air dodges, unless the Zelda player's brain stops working.

yeh i have noticed that floaty chars get out of hitstun much quicker that includes marth.. its kinda iratating that they get such a buff while others get ****ed... i mean marth mk and pit? should they realy get this buff that other chars dont have... i dont know sounds kinda imba to me but yeh i even posted about it around the time we got the hitstun 2.0

 

[Me_Aludes]

Another random thought is that making a single air dodge would make Zelda too good. If you burn your air dodge early and then she hits you with a Din's Fire, you're toast even if getting hit refreshes air dodges, unless the Zelda player's brain stops working.

Some aerials outpriorize Din's Fire, and timing isn't really hard. A lot of sex kicks, if not all, do.
I dunno if every char has at least 1 aerial to counter Din's Fire spam, though.

 

[Garde]

Me_Aludes, I am talking about the specific situation where you are off stage, trying to recover. While sex kicks CAN clash, the Zelda player is at the clear advantage in that situation because Din's Fire can be delayed and positioned so that it does not clash with a move (its hitbox does not collide with the sex kick's hitbox). Air dodging is the only action a player can choose that is truly safe when returning to the stage, regardless of how Zelda positions the Din's Fire.

If I'm not mistaken, clashing with Din's Fire also alters the airborne character's momentum, making it harder for them to return to stage.

Of course, without the No Decay, it shouldn't be anything to worry about.

EDIT: Forgot the entire reason I was posting.

I changed my codes up, and I think I like this setup a lot:

No Tripping
No Replay Time Limit
S Canceling
Hit Stun 8%
Lagless Ledges
No ASL
Up/Down Gravity (1.05 up, 1.1 down)
Buffer
Dash Dancing
Triple Jump Fix
Hitlag Division
Shield Gain
Shield Stun
Dash Canceling


Absolutely loving the addition of Crouch Canceling.

 

[dgameman1]

Shouldnt there be a stickied OFFICIAL BRAWL+ codes... So we can all do wifi with eachother if we have the same codes?

 

[kupo15]

Pit's edge game gets WRECKED (or DESTROYED) b/c of this as well...i Idk if its me or wat but i couldn't grab the edge with pit. Kupo do u have the same problem or is just me sucking?

I don't have a problem with it at all

Oh...and BTW GAW is broken in B+ cause he can go shorthop dair on the ground to judgement 9 for the kill. ITS NICE

about the asl code...wouldn't the stage edge sliding code fix the problem for those characters instead of bouncing or exploding they would just slide towards the edge, just wondering?

I mentioned that to pw but he didn't say anything about it when he gave us the code. Idk I can suggest it again

Paprika, how are things coming with the combining?

 

[johe]

Shouldnt there be a stickied OFFICIAL BRAWL+ codes... So we can all do wifi with eachother if we have the same codes?

3 things

1. There is still debate going on about which codes should be in a final codeset

2. Certain codes cause desynchs online e.g. ALC

3. Wifi sucks major balls

 

[dgameman1]

Why would the max number of lines be a problem? Can't you guys just combine all the final codes into one?

 

[Yeroc]

There's only room enough in memory for a certain number of lines of code. In our case, 256. You can't just automatically combine codes into one, they would still take up the same number of lines. However, there seems to be the potential to combine some codes that share some addresses and pointers, and supposedly it's being worked on. But nothing has come of it yet.

 

[dgameman1]

DANG, okay. What's ASL? lol

 

[Shadic]

There's a FAQ for questions like yours.

 

[maplesyrupandjam]

I am having an incredibly frustrating time finding other brawl+ players to play online... any pointers?

 

[leafgreen386]

I am having an incredibly frustrating time finding other brawl+ players to play online... any pointers?

Try PMing people who post in this thread. I'll play you online if you want, but I can't till later. If you have aim, drop me an IM sometime you see me online (my sn is the same as here). Just because I'm online doesn't necessarily mean I'm available to play, but I will usually respond to you quickly if I'm not away or eating.