COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Deleted member]

In my opinion, JC grab is to all grabs as Brawl wavedashing is to all forms of movement. Why use any form of grab other than JC grab?

This.

The difference being the amount of time to perfect. JC grabs takes maybe 1/1000th the amount of time to get reasonably consistent. The reason people didn't want wave dashing is b/c it scares anybody who doesn't want to put the time in - away from playing the game. The same goes for L-canceling.

hahaha, oh wow.

Well that's the whole thing with dash grabs Greenpoe, some chars (oh hi Samus) can use their dash grabs for extended range, but others completely suck.
I'm not arguing for JC grabs to replace any other method, but simply to add another option; shield grabs will still offer that very...."tight"... feel where the grab occurs basically right where you input it, while JC grabs allow for a little sliding beforehand (what shield grabs did before in vB).
Not necessary I agree, but I think it would be beneficial to the offensive grab game.

Edit:
Comparatively to the other two Smash games, we're missing a viable offensive grabbing technique.
Melee had JC grabs (offense), shield grabs (defense), dash grabs (practically obsolete), and standing grabs (didn't happen to much).
64 had two types of standing grabs: one interrupting a dash (offense), shield grabs (defense, which is lulz in 64), and standing (again, wasn't used all too much).

We're missing a good offensive tech for offensive grabs in this game.

fix'd
By adding JC grabs we'll be making dashgrabs obsolete, just like wavedashing would make certain characters' run obsolete. It would also add a need for mindless and unnecessary input (l-cancelling anyone?).

 

[Rudra]

This.


hahaha, oh wow.


fix'd
By adding JC grabs we'll be making dashgrabs obsolete, just like wavedashing would make certain characters' run obsolete. It would also add a need for mindless and unnecessary input (l-cancelling anyone?).

Wait a minute. When performing an aerial, L-canceling was always the best thing to do. Always. JC grabs are different in that they arent always the best form of grabing. For example, you could charge an an opponent who expects a JC grab and spot dodges/attacks, just to use the running shield and grab after their spot dodge/attack has ended. I'm not too sure that JC grabs will completely make a running grab obsolete (especially with pivot grabs?), but maybe some testing will say otherwise.

 

[Deleted member]

Wait a minute. When performing an aerial, L-canceling was always the best thing to do. Always. JC grabs are different in that they arent always the best form of grabing. For example, you could charge an an opponent who expects a JC grab and spot dodges/attacks, just to use the running shield and grab after their spot dodge/attack has ended. I'm not too sure that JC grabs will completely make a running grab obsolete (especially with pivot grabs?), but maybe some testing will say otherwise.

It would at least go from "decent option" to "mindgame option". You'd be using it far less often, because doing a JC grab is a much better option, most of the time.

 

[GHNeko]

The problems with wavedashing were the following:

- IIRC, there were only 2 frames of landing lag after a wavedash, which meant your timing had to be exceptional; otherwise, you'd end up shielding right after landing. Since Melee had 10 frames of landing lag, this was not a problem. Plus, the lack of landing lag meant you could stack wavedashes, allowing for fast movement.
- Most characters are slippery as hell. Unlike Melee, the friction for each character is very homogenized across the board, meaning wavedashing was the best form of movement for almost all characters.
- You can't slip from a platform, unless you're pushed while shielding.

The only way to make wavedashing anything like Melee, then, would've been to use a character-specific friction modifier (which does exist), increase the landing lag from an AD, and make platforms let you slip from them.

And even then it still wouldnt be like Melee because of the timing of WDing in Brawl.

 

[MK26]

Do you have any idea just how slow walking is? There are so many instances where walking forward is just too slow to capitalize on someone's mistake.

and very few of those instances involve your character being close enough to your opponent's character that you arent able to dash, dash cancel (either with a crouch or a shield) and grab

we have options already - we dont need to add more

 

[kupo15]

L-canceling is superficial and adds nothing to the game except divide it between the people who always presses shield after an [unfinished] aerial to those who don't. It does not add depth.
.

My mind has been changed about this but thats besides the point

and very few of those instances involve your character being close enough to your opponent's character that you arent able to dash, dash cancel (either with a crouch or a shield) and grab

we have options already - we dont need to add more

The past two games have had some form of reduced lagging grab. There was no dash grab in 64, melee had JC grabs which honestly, I think was put there intentionally as a competitive technique that he took out in brawl similar to the many things put back in brawl+. This technique also falls under the same umbrella as JC usmash and we have this but why not JC grabs?

I still feel this game lacks some more good offensive options to punish the mistakes made by the opponent which results in them getting away with more mistakes then they should. JCing grabs would also separate the intermediate from the pros which is something we have to consider seeing how there are some intermediate players in tourneys. The game gets slower when the best, fastest applicable grab is a slow dash grab. Being able to have the tools to punish mistakes or at least being able to attempt to punish them without so much risk to yourself is key and in the grabbing department, we don't have this.

JC grabs won't always be the best option. There are times where JCing is not needed, where JC canceling is needed, and where turn around grabs are needed. I doubt that you can do a reverse JC grab and get the same range as you would a reverse grab. Also, there is a risk to trying to JC a grab. If you go for the better grab, you run the risk of doing a uair instead so this would add depth. The more stuff we have to learn in this game, the deeper it will be.

 

[Shell]

Please, for the love of Brawl+, let's not get into wavedashing here and now. Make a thread for it if we have to.

It might homogenize grabs slightly, but I don't really care. Homogenizing the grab game between a single character's options somewhat isn't comparable to homogenizing movement options between all characters, if that's what you people are arguing.

 

[spunit262]

Default handicap [spunit262]
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Forced Handicap online [spunit262]
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60000000 00000000

V2.1 shouldn't desync online when people choose different buffers.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Look guys, honestly nobody is going to mess up a JC grab and it litterally takes 10 seconds to learn (just press grab right after jump! It's that simple!). So any point about "technical barriers" is moot.

Now lets look at the effects. Yes JC grabs are better than dash grabs, so dash grabs will become worse as a result. But what this also means is that the grab game as a whole will become better, which I think is currently rather lacking. Most grabs are only landed when you have a really large window to prepare your grab. I want grabs to be able to punish those small openings that the opponent leaves (like when someone whiffs an aerial). I want grabs to be on par with other approaches, and since we don't want to up the rewards for landing them (since high damage grab setups like chaingrabs are gay), the optimal way to do that is to lower the risk of attempting a grab (by making them easier to land and a little harder to punish.)

 

[Swordplay]

Not looking to put MAD or wavedashing in.

I play a few characters that use the zair. I can't even begin to think how overpowering this would make zair tactics that are already autocancel

 

[leafgreen386]

Look guys, honestly nobody is going to mess up a JC grab and it litterally takes 10 seconds to learn (just press grab right after jump! It's that simple!). So any point about "technical barriers" is moot.

Now lets look at the effects. Yes JC grabs are better than dash grabs, so dash grabs will become worse as a result. But what this also means is that the grab game as a whole will become better, which I think is currently rather lacking. Most grabs are only landed when you have a really large window to prepare your grab. I want grabs to be able to punish those small openings that the opponent leaves (like when someone whiffs an aerial). I want grabs to be on par with other approaches, and since we don't want to up the rewards for landing them (since high damage grab setups like chaingrabs are gay), the optimal way to do that is to lower the risk of attempting a grab (by making them easier to land and a little harder to punish.)

This, this and more of this.

Already in brawl if you have the ability to do a dash canceled grab instead of a running grab you will do one. You can even put up your shield during your dash to initiate the standing grab, at the cost of 7 frames (and a really obvious indicator that you're going to grab). Yet, both of these are still more optimal than a dash grab in many situations. Would this take even more away from dash grabs? Yes. Definitely. Is that a bad thing? No. It really isn't. You're still grabbing. It doesn't matter that you did it by performing a standing grab out of a dash. I would rather see more attempts at grabbing during a match that all come from some form of a standing grab than some attempts at grabbing that come from a mix of standing and dash grabs. This code will do no more than increase options in any given scenario, which is a definition of depth.

 

[Teronist09]

Default handicap [spunit262]
046F29E4 38600064 (with anyone or maybe online hadicap off, don't know)
040504E4 3B800064 (offline hadicap off)
0404FFD8 901E0024 (other modes, not adjustable 10)

Forced Handicap online [spunit262]
046F3D98 38600064

Buffer scale = Handicap scale V2.1 [Y.S, Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C285B784 00000009
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38000064 8CA4005C
7C032800 4240000C
4082FFF4 80040012
3860000A 2C000064
40800008 7C601BD6
60000000 00000000

V2.1 shouldn't desync online when people choose different buffers.

What is the purpose of that second code? I assume the Default Handicap code will change the buffer when handicap is off?

 

[Deleted member]

This code will do no more than increase options in any given scenario, which is a definition of depth.

The problem is, the option is too good. Is that a bad thing? Yes it is. What was the reason behind not using wavedashing? It increased options didn't it?

 

[Rudra]

JC Grabs may be a better option than dash grabbing, but it doesnt centralize grabbing to the extent as WDing did to ground movement.

 

[Swordplay]

Default handicap [spunit262]
046F29E4 38600064 (with anyone or maybe online hadicap off, don't know)
040504E4 3B800064 (offline hadicap off)
0404FFD8 901E0024 (other modes, not adjustable 10)

Forced Handicap online [spunit262]
046F3D98 38600064

Buffer scale = Handicap scale V2.1 [Y.S, Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C285B784 00000009
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38000064 8CA4005C
7C032800 4240000C
4082FFF4 80040012
3860000A 2C000064
40800008 7C601BD6
60000000 00000000

V2.1 shouldn't desync online when people choose different buffers.

Finnz and I are testing it right now.


Edit: it didn't work. We had.....problems. We tried to fix it but couldn't really. If we fixed one problem another occured....

 

[storm92]

The problem is, the option is too good. Is that a bad thing? Yes it is. What was the reason behind not using wavedashing? It increased options didn't it?

You're acting like its a game-breaking tech, like WD was.
It's not, at all.
As said before me, it doesn't homogenize anything except that chars will use JC grabs over dash grabs more, because its the better option most the time.
You're acting like how WD would replace dashing is equivalent to how JC grabs would replace dash grabs; that example doesn't work at all.

The reasoning behind no WD was because it literally nullified other forms of movement, which is actually game-changing, unlike JC grabs over dash grabs.
Stop over dramatizing this, we're simply looking to add in another option into the grab game.

Edit: I've seen leaf, kupo, Dark Sonic, Shell, and me all put forth really good reasons why we should include this, please nullify our points if you want to argue against it?

 

[Zelc]

What about just making dash grabs better (i.e. less lag)? Would that accomplish the same thing?

 

[kupo15]

I love this new code we got. The broom liked the idea which is why it was made. I highly encourage people to be open to this code because it doesn't change the mechanic at all, just balances it better. This code rocks and I feel it fits well in brawl+

Glide Stop: [phantom wings]
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809900AC 00000000

Yes, gliding is not broken, but I think it needs to be reworked. In a game where the object is to knock your opponent off the stage, it is a poor design to have characters transcend that with an ability to recover from anywhere even if its not broken. Not only can they recover from anywhere, but they also have an extra attack in their arsenal over the rest of the cast.

Gliding is equal to if not better than an up b and acts like an up b so it should be treated like an up b. Here are the restrictions I want to give to make it act like an up b because I feel it should act like an up b:

-Attacking or canceling the glide always goes into the fall state as if it were the last jump
-You lose all your jumps when you glide so if your hit out, you only have up b to save you

Basically, you have to think about how to use the glide recovery. Even with these two nerfs to the gliding mechanic, these three characters still have an advantage over the rest of the cast by having two "up b's" instead of just one.

How it affects characters: (compensation)

Pit. It works nicely for giving him his up b back
Zard: We can speed up his gliding start phase and speed up his velocity
MK: Works wonders all around (he has 5 mid jumps and 5 recovery moves (6 if you count up b as 2))
Code:
__________________

 

[GHNeko]

Not a bad idea. >_>

 

[The Cape]

kupo, sweet idea. Lets do it

Make Zard glair spike too

Can we make it so shuttle loop doesnt go into glide?

 

[kupo15]

MK keeps all of his jumps even if he is hit out of the glide, but yea, no glide after Shuttle would definitely balance it out

 

[CountKaiser]

Seems like a reasonable nerf, his shuttle loop is akin to kirby's final cutter without the glide.

 

[GHNeko]

I do think Charizard should be exempt.

*shrugs* it affects him more than the rest of the gliders because his Up B doesnt allow for the same kind of freedom in air.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Not to mention that Charizard's glide is so slow that it borders on uselessly situational most of the time.


But no double standards, please. Gliding is a general mechanic for these characters. Nerf one, nerf them all.

 

[cobaltblue]

Not to mention that Charizard's glide is so slow that it borders on uselessly situational most of the time.


But no double standards, please. Gliding is a general mechanic for these characters. Nerf one, nerf them all.

Eh it should be on a character to character basis in my view. I don't play zard much but it just makes sense that characters with wings have an easier time recovering compared to those without. So if the zard players think its too much then make him exempt.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Eh it should be on a character to character basis in my view. I don't play zard much but it just makes sense that characters with wings have an easier time recovering compared to those without. So if the zard players think its too much then make him exempt.

The thing is, I do play Charizard a fair amount. I wouldn't call him a main, but I play with the Pokemon Trainer's team a lot. His glide is the closest thing to useless that I've seen in B+. Out of his glide, all you are is spike bait.

Nerfing his glide won't hurt him at all because no one uses it in the first place.



Instead of exempting him from the nerf, attempt to increase his glide speed.

 

[trojanpooh]

I agree that Charizard should be exempt, unlike Pit and MK they actually thought out his recovery and made sure it wasn't OP.

Edit: Or speed up his glide

 

[Rikana]

Yeah, I mentioned the gliding stuff like a month ago but no one really gave any feedback in IRC. Anyways, I'm glad it's finally being considered now.

I agree with speed up Charizard's gliding. No glide for MK's upB is good.

 

[kupo15]

I do think Charizard should be exempt.

*shrugs* it affects him more than the rest of the gliders because his Up B doesnt allow for the same kind of freedom in air.

Eh it should be on a character to character basis in my view. I don't play zard much but it just makes sense that characters with wings have an easier time recovering compared to those without. So if the zard players think its too much then make him exempt.

The thing is, I do play Charizard a fair amount. I wouldn't call him a main, but I play with the Pokemon Trainer's team a lot. His glide is the closest thing to useless that I've seen in B+. Out of his glide, all you are is spike bait.

Nerfing his glide won't hurt him at all because no one uses it in the first place.



Instead of exempting him from the nerf, attempt to increase his glide speed.

I agree that Charizard should be exempt, unlike Pit and MK they actually thought out his recovery and made sure it wasn't OP.

Edit: Or speed up his glide

I'm sorry but do you guys actually read? What does the bottom of my post say? Maybe I should quote it for you.....

How it affects characters: (compensation)

Pit. It works nicely for giving him his up b back
Zard: We can speed up his gliding start phase and speed up his velocity
MK: Works wonders all around (he has 5 mid jumps and 5 recovery moves (6 if you count up b as 2))

 

[trojanpooh]

Well, I like to repeat idea's that I approve of, because if the masses like the idea, it will be implemented.

 

[kupo15]

Well, I like to repeat idea's that I approve of, because if the masses like the idea, it will be implemented.

It just sounded as if no one read my ideas for compensating the characters. Cape had an interesting idea to make chards glide attack spike which should be plenty to compensate along with a faster glide start and glide velocity. I'd rather see us buff his glide some way than to make it character specific. I don't like exceptions to the rule and ruining consistency in this game. Consistency is very important

 

[goodoldganon]

What's the code exactly do now?

As Mr. Conservative I do want to say this: Gliding isn't OP but it still needed some tweaks. Still, every other character should be jealous of those 3 characters for their gliding. It's what makes the characters unique and it's a unique Brawl feature. Just like people are jealous of Wario's SA F-smash or Falcon's Knee, people should want gliding.

I'll give this code a go soon.

 

[kupo15]

I'll give this code a go soon.

against humans please and don't test it with your mind made up already, Mr Conservative. I have no idea why you are so conservative. You dismiss ideas off of principle. Think outside the box.

 

[VietGeek]

So the code makes it so that MK can only use Shuttle Loop out of glide instead of his other recovery options, right? If he gets attacked in glide state anyway.

That probably conveniently balances his recovery out a bit, huh? 9/10 (or other made-up large statistic) he can already recovery from about anywhere most of the time. So now MK is even more edgeguard friendly (in the receiving sense of the term).

Right...? *tries it*

 

[goodoldganon]

against humans please and don't test it with your mind made up already, Mr Conservative. I have no idea why you are so conservative. You dismiss ideas off of principle. Think outside the box.

I don't know either. I vote liberal too.

Either way, I think gliding was a little too good and needed some tweaks, but I still think it needs to be something powerful. I should play as Ganondorf and wish I had it. On the topic of gliding, we don't plan to do anything with Peach's float I assume, correct?

 

[kupo15]

So the code makes it so that MK can only use Shuttle Loop out of glide instead of his other recovery options, right? If he gets attacked in glide state anyway.

That probably conveniently balances his recovery out a bit, huh? 9/10 (or other made-up large statistic) he can already recovery from about anywhere most of the time. So now MK is even more edgeguard friendly (in the receiving sense of the term).

Right...? *tries it*

Huh? No.

-Attacking or canceling the glide always goes into the fall state as if it were the last jump
-You lose all your jumps when you glide so if your hit out, you only have your other recoveries to save you

This only affects gliding from a jump

Either way, I think gliding was a little too good and needed some tweaks, but I still think it needs to be something powerful.

Its still powerful

On the topic of gliding, we don't plan to do anything with Peach's float I assume, correct?

Why would we? Can she go under hyrule and up the other side and still have 5 jumps and an up b?

 

[cobaltblue]

I'm sorry but do you guys actually read? What does the bottom of my post say? Maybe I should quote it for you.....

Actually I wasn't talking to you.

 

[goodoldganon]

Its still powerful

Good

Why would we? Can she go under hyrule and up the other side and still have 5 jumps and an up b?

Also good, I don't know why I thought we'd change that or why anyone would complain about that.

 

[VietGeek]

-You lose all your jumps when you glide so if your hit out, you only have your other recoveries to save you

This is what I wanted clarified. If you haven't already, please fix the post to say you can use other recovery options if you're attacked out of gliding. If they only see UpB available, they may misunderstand and be reluctant to even try out the code.

 

[goodoldganon]

Any reason why we like to call the Pokemon females? It started with Ivysaur but I never quite understood it. @_@

It annoys me to no end. Ivysaur might be female, but Charizard and Squirtle are totally dudes.