Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Rizen]

This is a great grand finals showing both K.Rool and Belmont's extreme states. They go back and forth the entire match. When K.Rool has momentum he bulldozes through attacks, gets the opponent offstage and gimps hard with huge armored hitboxes. Belmont's advantage state is extremely oppressive and he doesn't give opponents the chance to do anything, even resulting in a 3 stock. Both characters win and lose hard but if you want to know who comes out on top you'll have to watch the match. The only disappointing thing is K.Rool only uses reflector once.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

This is a great grand finals showing both K.Rool and Belmont's extreme states. They go back and forth the entire match. When K.Rool has momentum he bulldozes through attacks, gets the opponent offstage and gimps hard with huge armored hitboxes. Belmont's advantage state is extremely oppressive and he doesn't give opponents the chance to do anything, even resulting in a 3 stock. Both characters win and lose hard but if you want to know who comes out on top you'll have to watch the match. The only disappointing thing is K.Rool only uses reflector once.

Well its the same issue with . Having an amazing advantage state when the right opportunity arises is great and all. But if you get blown up just as bad in disadvantage. Or you have flaws that can prevent you from even starting anything in thr first place. A character will be not be able to grasp solo success

I find Ultimate rewards overall consistency with strong or even opressive tools and options to support that consistency up(a lot of that may have to do with a 3 stock meta) but I digress

That is why characters like Olimar, Peach, Wolf, Lucina and even Ike and Wario are doing well now. They have one or more very opressive tools backed by beimg fairly well-rounded in most other areas. With any weakness not too hard to work around in most cases by players who have mastered the characters

 

[Heracr055]

^RE Ridley: this is why I'm looking to see how Trela does at Prime Saga. I have faith that if anyone can make a great showcase for Ridley advantage state, it's him.
On a side note seriously considering a Belmont for a secondary now (thanks Shuton)

Edit at below: I wouldn't call this worlds better than 4 when the buffer in this game sucks

 

[Lore]

I honestly believe ultimate will be around for years after patches are over.

Smash 4 dying almost as quick as it started honestly doesnt have anything to do this imaginary "patch culture". People forget that the wii u sold poorly, balance was probably almost as bad as brawl, customs on or off was a constant debate and most people who did have wii u also played brawl to some extent and i really doubt anyone wanted to deal with another character as blantantly overpowered as metaknight since bayo only had one small balance patch to "nerf" her.


Ultimate doesnt suffer half the problems that wii u did and in fact its been sped up compared to past titles (that aren't melee).

Heck, in terms of balance we still have yet to pin down a clear "best" since pichu couldnt even break top 5 at frostbite.

Wolf isnt really anything special beyond good fundamentals and a slightly too-large-for-its-own-good-blaster.

If we are still arguing over who is the best three months in while saying everyone "has potential" on a best seller with a very VERY popular system I say its a good sign

Plus Smash 4 was as fun to watch as watching paint dry, even at the start. It was decently fun to play, but watching matches was a snooze fest. I mean zero offense to the Smash 4 players who dove in, but it wasn't for me.

Ultimate is worlds better so far. I love it.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I've been saying this for a while now, but I think Pichu is still one of the most overrated characters in the game. I don't think he's going to fall out of top 10, but he doesn't seem to be a top 5 character, and as the meta develops it's possible Pikachu will end up being the more solid character (thanks to Quick Attack, better range, and better survivability).

I disagree. It's like a Marth and Lucina situation: why play Marth when Lucina can do more and is easier to learn? Even pros admit to this regularly and high learning curve characters are usually dumped if it's decided the work far exceeds the results (this might as well be the opening statement in Smash Lucario's biography). Pichu has better kill options, better combos, gets more out of grabs, has an easier to use recovery, etc. Sure, it's super light but it's also a tiny character so outspacing it and killing it when you need to is harder too. Since Brawl, Pikachu has been a great character but ultimately bogged down by its learning curve. It's a precision based character but it's light and actually getting that kill when you need to can be a pain unless your opponent has a crap off stage game. Despite the buffs, it's still largely the same issues and Pichu just does what it can do better. This is why I think, without nerfs, Pichu will stay better than Pikachu.

 

[bc1910]

Can Wario really be classed as a high tier? He’s got a major and super major win under his belt with wins over some of the best players and characters. Yes, he’s piloted by one of the best players in the world, but so are all the top tiers. If Wario is able to compete with players and characters of the highest caliber then he’s in the highest echelon of characters in my book. The fact that Tweek is choosing to use Wario and seeing success (contrary to his S4 Bowser Jr who he chose to use but showed limited results) should speak volumes about his strength anyway, regardless of what tier Tweek claims he’s in.

Pichu’s clearly top tier, just not the undisputed best in the game like some suspected. His weaknesses are suitable meaningful to balance him out once you get used to his small size, which is much harder to deal with than his supposed speed which in reality is barely above average.

Also this isn’t the thread to discuss Smash 4’s flaws but I can’t resist adding; people don’t appreciate how important of a stepping stone Smash 4 was between Ultimate and Brawl. This probably has to do with a lot of Smash 4 players not having played or followed Brawl competitively.

I don’t want to get into arguments about Brawl’s combat system; suffice to say it’s my least favourite in the series and Smash 4 got a lot right in correcting some of Brawl’s bad combat decisions and mechanics. It put the series back on track for faster combat where aggression with more than one (broken) character is actually viable (fighting games don’t have to favour aggression, most don’t in fact, but it needs to be a rewarding and viable option for obvious reasons). It also allowed the developers to gain experience with patching and balance changes. However shaky the Smash 4 patches were, the devs seem to have learned from them and the patches have been very sensible so far in Ultimate. I grant you it’s still early days; patch 3.0.0 will be really interesting.

Think of Smash 4 as a necessary evil and you’ll be a lot more forgiving of it.

 

[Rizen]

Well its the same issue with . Having an amazing advantage state when the right opportunity arises is great and all. But if you get blown up just as bad in disadvantage. Or you have flaws that can prevent you from even starting anything in thr first place. A character will be not be able to grasp solo success

I find Ultimate rewards overall consistency with strong or even opressive tools and options to support that consistency up(a lot of that may have to do with a 3 stock meta) but I digress

That is why characters like Olimar, Peach, Wolf, Lucina and even Ike and Wario are doing well now. They have one or more very opressive tools backed by beimg fairly well-rounded in most other areas. With any weakness not too hard to work around in most cases by players who have mastered the characters

Ultimate is a hard game to be consistent at so character consistency does help but in the cases of Ike, etc I think it's more a matter of them being overtuned. Pit as a counterpoint is consistent but not strong enough to be good.

I disagree with Wario being consistent. His strong CQC game paired with poor reach means he's either smothering or getting swatted away before he can do anything. Waft adds an additional layer of inconsistency because it either kills super early or wiffs and can't be used for almost 2 minutes.

 

[Diddy Kong]

This is a great grand finals showing both K.Rool and Belmont's extreme states. They go back and forth the entire match. When K.Rool has momentum he bulldozes through attacks, gets the opponent offstage and gimps hard with huge armored hitboxes. Belmont's advantage state is extremely oppressive and he doesn't give opponents the chance to do anything, even resulting in a 3 stock. Both characters win and lose hard but if you want to know who comes out on top you'll have to watch the match. The only disappointing thing is K.Rool only uses reflector once.

This is a thing many characters in Ultimate suffer from. Certain characters need a constant state of advantage to be effective, a sort of 'flow' that in previous games wasn't as much apperant because Brawl and Smash 4 had way stronger defensive options that wouldn't make these things possible, and Melee only had a handful of 'viable' characters (though there's the occasional surprise as Pikachu, Samus, Luigi and Yoshi; however 90% of the time it's Fox, Falco, Marth, Jigglypuff and Peach- even Jigglypuff and Peach are rare sights because they only belong to ONE top player).

It's also why I post such conflicting things about Diddy Kong, and the whole Mewtwo fiasco of the last 2 pages or so. These are characters with a very strong advantage, but a equal bad disadvantage. King Dedede is another character I think is this polarizing. It somehow works for the likes of Chrom, Fox and Pichu because, well... people are way more familiar with their archetypes as characters. Because honestly, Chrom is basically a easier Marth (Lucina too but way more balanced overall), Fox is Fox and does Fox things that we know / love about Fox (besides his gameplan is much like Smash 4's Fox, but even better), and Pichu plays quite like a glass canon version of Pikachu but better. So it's easy to see why the competitive community goes for these characters. Wolf also is easy to pick up and has oppresive tools, and is pretty much THE gatekeeping character to decide if a character is gonna be viable or not.

Am certain Ultimate is the most balanced Smash as of now, but it has a bit room for improvement honestly in just a few small things. It's not a easy thing to balance a game with so many different fighers, and am very curious what Patch 3.00 has in store for the game. Am hoping for a few buffs in a few characters, mainly in their defensive options, so that the current Top Tiers won't be overwhelming the rest of the cast as much.

There's characters that barely get attention now, and am quite certain will be far more popular if they would be buffed a little. Diddy Kong, Mewtwo, Meta Knight, Zero Suit Samus, Bayonetta, Sheik, Lucario, Ridley, Falco, Ryu, Rosalina... all solid characters with their strenghts, but there's certain weaknesses that they dont' share with the Top Tiers, and nerfs that don't make much sense for them to get and the Top Tiers getting away with them.

I think this game has a solid future going ahead.

Basically all what I think is lacking now is grab options and defensive options. I agree that those things where too strong in Brawl and Smash 4, but totally lacking in games as 64, Melee and now Ultimate. Maybe Melee did it the best though, because there was always a element of being able to come back after taking huge losses. I don't see that much in Ultimate.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Ultimate is a hard game to be consistent at so character consistency does help but in the cases of Ike, etc I think it's more a matter of them being overtuned. Pit as a counterpoint is consistent but not strong enough to be good.

I disagree with Wario being consistent. His strong CQC game paired with poor reach means he's either smothering or getting swatted away before he can do anything. Waft adds an additional layer of inconsistency because it either kills super early or wiffs and can't be used for almost 2 minutes.

Looking at Tweek vs MKleo sets at Frostbite makes me wonder if Wario's lack of range or "struggles" with swords is really that big, or really an issue at all for Wario

Once Tweek figured how to play against Leo Agasint either Ike or Lucina, he effortless got though thier range , completely overwhelmed and stuffed thier options even with their big scary swords made them both helpless.
By the GF set Tweek seemed to make Leo looked utterly clueless on what to do.You dont need me to tell you is an accomplishment that CANNOT be understated

Wario has the mobility, survability, power and major and Xfactor with Waft I think Wario can handle almost anyone. The only character I think Wario really stuggles with is Olimar.

MAYBE other characters that have strong projectile games and also outrange him up close like YL and Wolf.

 

[Nobie]

I've begun to think about characters not just in terms of max potential but also in terms of how they do in your worst days.

I still think Mewtwo has what it takes to do well. Even back in Smash 4, I thought pre-patch Mewtwo was a low tier on one's worst days and could be a mid-tier on one's best days. Post-patch, it could become a top 15 character on one's worst days and a top 5 on one's best days. And now, in Ultimate, I believe it to be a character that feels anywhere between top of high tier to middle of mid tier depending on conditions.

It's not that I think the character is inherently inconsistent. Mewtwo's tools are always solid. But what Mewtwo does not do is protect players from their own inconsistency, which can be a product of too many factors to name in full: mental health, emotional condition, practice, etc. Getting crushed as Mewtwo can feel brutal and downright demoralizing because the highs are very high and the lows are saddeningly low.

This is why I think Lucina is becoming the secondary of choice: she is so solid overall that she can perform well even on your worst days. The even blade is one thing, but her stats and her kit are such that you'll rarely accidentally fast-fall to your death (like Light did in the NA vs. Japan crew battle with Fox). Even if your hands aren't feeling comfortable, you don't have to worry too much about flubbing complex combos like you would with Peach because she does all right damage just landing stray hits.

Even if they buff Marth to be way better than her, I think people will still pick Lucina because they know she can perform even when their own condition isn't great. Lucina is dependable in times of crisis.

 

[zeldasmash]

I honestly believe ultimate will be around for years after patches are over.

Smash 4 dying almost as quick as it started honestly doesnt have anything to do this imaginary "patch culture". People forget that the wii u sold poorly, balance was probably almost as bad as brawl, customs on or off was a constant debate and most people who did have wii u also played brawl to some extent and i really doubt anyone wanted to deal with another character as blantantly overpowered as metaknight since bayo only had one small balance patch to "nerf" her.

Uh......as far as I know, Smash 4 didn't have anything close to or . The closest thing it had was and she was still nowhere near as oppressive as who shaped the entire metagame of Brawl on who can beat him best (which none could). And none of the low tiers in Smash 4 were as bad as (even if wasn't good either).

 

[Rizen]

Looking at Tweek vs MKleo sets at Frostbite makes me wonder if Wario's lack of range or "struggles" with swords is really that big, or really an issue at all for Wario

Once Tweek figured how to play against Leo Agasint either Ike or Lucina, he effortless got though thier big sword range , completely overwhelmed and stuffed thier options even with their big scary swords made them both helpless by the GF set Leo looked utterly clueless on what to do..You dont need me to tell you is an accomplishment that CANNOT be understated

Wario has the mobility, survability, power and major and Xfactor with Waft I think Wario can handle almost anyone. The only character I think Wario really stuggles with is Olimar.

MAYBE other zoners that generally have more ange than him like YL

I definitely think Wario's a high tier who can potentially deal with anyone but it says a lot that there were only 2 Warios in the top 100 of Frostbite and neither were solo mains (Tweek used Wolf and Zackray mained Wolf and seconded Wario).

 

[Jotun873]

Uh......as far as I know, Smash 4 didn't have anything close to or . The closest thing it had was and she was still nowhere near as oppressive as who shaped the entire metagame of Brawl on who can beat him best (which none could). And none of the low tiers in Smash 4 were as bad as (even if wasn't good either).

Fair enough. The rest of the post still stands though.

I also agree on the wario comments. The system favors him, heavies got buffs and overall airgame right now is really good.

 

[donnaddrake]

I think the characters that are gonna dominate the scene are , , , , and . Wolf and Peach have already been found as liable competitive options and Young Link has risen up as a near top tier character. Pichu is also been found near top tier and K.Rool is just flat out good(even though I hate K.Rool with a passion)

 

[Sean²]

I think the characters that are gonna dominate the scene are , , , , and . Wolf and Peach have already been found as liable competitive options and Young Link has risen up as a near top tier character. Pichu is also been found near top tier and K.Rool is just flat out good(even though I hate K.Rool with a passion)

One of these things is not like the others...

 

[Frihetsanka]

Since Brawl, Pikachu has been a great character but ultimately bogged down by its learning curve.

Isn't it plausible that Pikachu is slightly better overall, but not really worth the effort when you can get similar results by just playing Pichu? One of the major strengths Pikachu have over Pichu (better at playing campy) isn't very appealing either, most players don't want to play campy.

Note that I'm not saying that Pikachu is better than Pichu, just that it's possible. Maybe it's like 20% chance Pikachu is better, 80% chance Pichu, people make it sound like they're 99% sure Pichu is better, though. Imagine if two equally skilled top players get 2 years to develop Pichu and Pikachu, are you certain that Pichu will end up better then?

[...]K.Rool is just flat out good(even though I hate K.Rool with a passion)

Most top players seem to think K. Rool is pretty bad right now, and I happen to agree with that. What makes you think he has what it take to do well at top levels of play?

 

[Lore]

It sounds similar to Lucina vs Marth, then.

 

[bc1910]

Pikachu is probably better because of Quick Attack alone.

That one move gives him an additional offensive and defensive options in situations Agility doesn’t, simply because it has a hitbox. It can be used more effectively for ledge return, approaching, escaping disadvantage (whilst counterattacking) and starting combos. More options = good character.

Pichu does a lot of stuff better than Pikachu but, broadly speaking, it’s better versions of stuff Pikachu can already do. Pikachu on the other hand offers stuff with Quick Attack that Pichu flat out doesn’t have.

This honestly might never matter though. It’s up to the players at the end of the day and if they’re choosing Pichu and pushing him further than Pikachu, he deserves to be ranked higher.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I think the characters that are gonna dominate the scene are , , , , and . Wolf and Peach have already been found as liable competitive options and Young Link has risen up as a near top tier character. Pichu is also been found near top tier and K.Rool is just flat out good(even though I hate K.Rool with a passion)

I agree with 4 of these characters. However, sticks out like a sore thumb. He has so many fundamental issues that stop him from being good such as:

• Slow Ground Speed
• Slow Air Speed
• Poor Frame Data
• Poor Combo Game
• High Landing Lag on Aerials
• Gets Juggled a Lot

He has too many issues to be anywhere near decent. I'm not saying he's complete garbage, but K. Rool only does well when he's the one in control of the match and it can often be hard for him to get control when getting hit by a good combo started such as up-tilt or down-throw means he's going to be taking a guaranteed 50-60% damage.

 

[Idon]

Legit, I cannot see a future where Lucina isn't always superior due to her being tied to his echo status.

Buff Marth's range? Lucina gets a slice of that pie.
Buff Marth's Uthrow? Lucina's now part grappler.
Buff the weight? Tank Lucina meta is here.
Buff endlag? Jesus, imagine Lucina being able to throw out even more FSmashes while they're safer too.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Legit, I cannot see a future where Lucina isn't always superior due to her being tied to his echo status.

They could buff Marth's sourspots or tippers without buffing Lucina, or make the tippers larger. Alternatively, they could nerf Lucina's damage/knockback values without hurting Marth's.

 

[MG_3989]

We have a long way to go in this game and if Lucina keeps performing the way she does she may be in line for nerfs. Marth may be in line for buffs too. We have no idea how this meta will shake out and if Lucina will be Queen for the rest of the meta or something else will happen

I hope they buff Marth cause his tipper mechanic makes him more interesting than other swordies

 

[Frihetsanka]

We have a long way to go in this game and if Lucina keeps performing the way she does she may be in line for nerfs.

Is she actually? Lucina does well at lower lowers but she and Marth did in Smash 4 as well, they've been popular characters for a long time now. At top levels of play we see MkLeo with Lucina (though he seems to use Ike and Wolf more in general) and Nairo (who uses her alongside Palutena and some Zero Suit Samus). Aside from that, there's Mr. E, who also uses Marth, and... Not that many Lucinas making top 64 in majors? Genesis 6 apparently had 3 Lucinas in top 64 (mostly used as a secondary), Lucina had 3 (MkLeo, Nairo, and Meme as a secondary). Lucina is hardly dominant, you'll see more Palutenas, Pichus, Wolfs (Wolves?), Olimars, and Foxs (Foxes?) in top 64 at majors. Right now, she seems to be used more as a secondary than as a main, at least at top level of play.

 

[bc1910]

Legit, I cannot see a future where Lucina isn't always superior due to her being tied to his echo status.

Buff Marth's range? Lucina gets a slice of that pie.
Buff Marth's Uthrow? Lucina's now part grappler.
Buff the weight? Tank Lucina meta is here.
Buff endlag? Jesus, imagine Lucina being able to throw out even more FSmashes while they're safer too.

You can change damage and knockback values for one without affecting the other.

Lucina was hugely inferior to Marth (who already wasn’t good) at the start of Smash 4 because her damage and knockback values were so undertuned; they were barely more than his untippered hits. By the end of the patches Lucina had damage and KB buffs that Marth hadn’t shared and they were honestly about even by the end of the game’s life (even if Marth was usually better).

In Ultimate her damage and KB values are overturned by comparison. The 1v1 multiplier affects this too; obviously Lucina’s damage gets a much bigger boost from it than Marth’s because it’s a flat multiplier on her already higher damage output.

You can also buff Marth’s tipper range without increasing his range as a whole by making it simply cover more of the sword.

 

[Idon]

Is she actually? Lucina does well at lower lowers but she and Marth did in Smash 4 as well, they've been popular characters for a long time now. At top levels of play we see MkLeo with Lucina (though he seems to use Ike and Wolf more in general) and Nairo (who uses her alongside Palutena and some Zero Suit Samus). Aside from that, there's Mr. E, who also uses Marth, and... Not that many Lucinas making top 64 in majors? Genesis 6 apparently had 3 Lucinas in top 64 (mostly used as a secondary), Lucina had 3 (MkLeo, Nairo, and Meme as a secondary). Lucina is hardly dominant, you'll see more Palutenas, Pichus, Wolfs (Wolves?), Olimars, and Foxs (Foxes?) in top 64 at majors. Right now, she seems to be used more as a secondary than as a main, at least at top level of play.

Yeah, Lucina is the ultimate pocket character next to Wolf. She's entirely fundamentals based and makes a ton of the top-high tiers uncomfortable with her large aerials and FSmash. With solid strengths, simple low-investment gameplan, and no clear cut weakness outside of maaaaybe attempting a gimp, it's easy to see why peoole would pick her up.

That said though, Mr E is currently the only Marth mains even scratching top 64 and that disappoints me, so I'm hoping for buffs even though he's already "good."

 

[MG_3989]

Is she actually? Lucina does well at lower lowers but she and Marth did in Smash 4 as well, they've been popular characters for a long time now. At top levels of play we see MkLeo with Lucina (though he seems to use Ike and Wolf more in general) and Nairo (who uses her alongside Palutena and some Zero Suit Samus). Aside from that, there's Mr. E, who also uses Marth, and... Not that many Lucinas making top 64 in majors? Genesis 6 apparently had 3 Lucinas in top 64 (mostly used as a secondary), Lucina had 3 (MkLeo, Nairo, and Meme as a secondary). Lucina is hardly dominant, you'll see more Palutenas, Pichus, Wolfs (Wolves?), Olimars, and Foxs (Foxes?) in top 64 at majors. Right now, she seems to be used more as a secondary than as a main, at least at top level of play.

I don’t think she’s broken or anything but I do think she’s overtuned. With everyone using her as a pocket and if Nintendo is listening to the community and keeping a finger on the pulse of the metagame and top players in general I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened. Lucina is a different type of character than those characters and it’s pretty much consensus that she’s a top three character in the game if not the best character in the game

I wouldn’t be surprised if she was nerfed and I wouldn’t be surprised if she stayed the same. I’d just like to see Marth do better because he’s more interesting and not just a “I have good fundamentals so I can play this character optimally” type character. Olimar, Fox, Palu, and Pichu aren’t like that either. Wolf is actually who I think is most likely to be nerfed tho

 

[Fatmanonice]

Wario's an unorthodoxed precision character. He doesn't have fast ground speed like Pichu or Greninja but his aerial speed is fantastic and makes it him a monster when it comes to being a slippery ******* and being one of the best pokers in the game. In the air, Wario can pump the brakes if a string isn't playing out how he wants and low level strings can lead to early kills because of how crazy hard Waft hits.

Weakness wise, his range still sucks, his reliable kill options could pretty much be counted on half a hand, and the bike now takes much longer to respawn. I feel like a big reason why Wario has exploded is because Wario's notable worst match ups in Smash 4 got worse. Wario's weaknesses in Smash 4 were characters with big disjoints and/or the ability to pressure/harass him off stage. Cloud was a bigg'm but Cloud's kill power is not that intimidating anymore and you can stall him out of limit. Bayo, Corrin, Sheik, and ZSS were all hard too. Villager, Rosalina, and Diddy were player dependant but could go horribly wrong very quickly.

As someone else said, Olimar's the only viable character right now that can really threaten Wario off stage. This being said, I feel like this niche void is giving Wario a big boost because there's not a lot of characters that can go off stage after him or fail an edgeguard without putting themselves in a worse situation. I think this is why seeing how much ZSS and Bayo improve will be important because, despite losing the off the top early kills, I feel like the tools are still there to counter him.

 

[Rizen]

I think K.Rool, and heavies with big hitboxes, benefits from wifi lag. Look at Ganon.

IMO Marcina should be looked at as one character in terms of results. Clones' results are artificially lowered be being divided among two nearly identical characters. Lucina is the better but IMO Marth's not that different.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Lucina is a different type of character than those characters and it’s pretty much consensus that she’s a top three character in the game if not the best character in the game

Not really? I think Peach/Daisy, Wolf, Fox, Olimar, maybe even Inkling are all better than her. She's good, sure, but unlikely to be top 3. She's also nowhere near as good of a secondary as Smash 4 Cloud, and eventually the "pocket Cloud" turned out to be more of a meme than reality: Turns out you actually have to work hard on secondaries to make them work at top levels of play! But right now, I don't think any character is as good as the top 5 in Smash 4, they'd probably be closer to 7-ish if they were in Smash 4, the power ceiling has been lowered.

Does she need nerfs? I don't think she does right now, she seems like her meta doesn't have much to develop while other characters (like Olimar, Peach, Fox, Inkling, even Greninja) have more room to develop. As time goes on, Lucina is fairly likely to drop a bit. Nerfing her now would be premature.

 

[MG_3989]

Wario's an unorthodoxed precision character. He doesn't have fast ground speed like Pichu or Greninja but his aerial speed is fantastic and makes it him a monster when it comes to being a slippery ******* and being one of the best pokers in the game. In the air, Wario can pump the brakes if a string isn't playing out how he wants and low level strings can lead to early kills because of how crazy hard Waft hits.

Weakness wise, his range still sucks, his reliable kill options could pretty much be counted on half a hand, and the bike now takes much longer to respawn. I feel like a big reason why Wario has exploded is because Wario's notable worst match ups in Smash 4 got worse. Wario's weaknesses in Smash 4 were characters with big disjoints and/or the ability to pressure/harass him off stage. Cloud was a bigg'm but Cloud's kill power is not that intimidating anymore and you can stall him out of limit. Bayo, Corrin, Sheik, and ZSS were all hard too. Villager, Rosalina, and Diddy were player dependant but could go horribly wrong very quickly.

As someone else said, Olimar's the only viable character right now that can really threaten Wario off stage. This being said, I feel like this niche void is giving Wario a big boost because there's not a lot of characters that can go off stage after him or fail an edgeguard without putting themselves in a worse situation. I think this is why seeing how much ZSS and Bayo improve will be important because, despite losing the off the top early kills, I feel like the tools are still there to counter him.

Wolf can harass him off stage with his laser. Ness can harass him off stage with PK Thunder and disjointed fair. Palu can harass him off stage with explosive flame. I think swordies can harass him off stage with their disjoints if he’s in disadvantage. I don’t see how Olimar is the only viable character that can harass him off stage. I’m sure there are some I’m missing too

Wario’s really good but it’s not like he’s unedgeguardable

Not really? I think Peach/Daisy, Wolf, Fox, Olimar, maybe even Inkling are all better than her. She's good, sure, but unlikely to be top 3. She's also nowhere near as good of a secondary as Smash 4 Cloud, and eventually the "pocket Cloud" turned out to be more of a meme than reality: Turns out you actually have to work hard on secondaries to make them work at top levels of play! But right now, I don't think any character is as good as the top 5 in Smash 4, they'd probably be closer to 7-ish if they were in Smash 4, the power ceiling has been lowered.

Does she need nerfs? I don't think she does right now, she seems like her meta doesn't have much to develop while other characters (like Olimar, Peach, Fox, Inkling, even Greninja) have more room to develop. As time goes on, Lucina is fairly likely to drop a bit. Nerfing her now would be premature.

I can certainly see this point of view and yes she is going to be optimized faster than the characters you mentioned. Like I said I don’t think she’s broken, I just think she’s perfect for her role which not many characters are. I wasn’t around for Cloud Smash 4 so I can’t comment on that but I can see what you mean. Every character takes works especially at a top level

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I think K.Rool, and heavies with big hitboxes, benefits from wifi lag. Look at Ganon.

IMO Marcina should be looked at as one character in terms of results. Clones' results are artificially lowered be being divided among two nearly identical characters. Lucina is the better but IMO Marth's not that different.

Many triforce characters benefit from lag i find. most and to a lesser extenet
Not so much though, since he takes a lot more precision and timing to actually take stocks and cant count on stray hits from things that can get janky in lag like many Dorf's otherwise highly telegraphed moves or Zelda's Neutral or Up-B specials both of which can just go straight to hell in heavy lag

 

[MG_3989]

I think Ike benefits from WiFi lag too. Especially the online fsmash/usmash/forward b Ike’s (much more so than the combo oriented ones but his combos still have a lot leniency). Anybody with big powerful hitboxes that don’t require much precision benefit a lot from WiFi lag

 

[Augi]

I'd like to build my own castle wall right now on Zelda. I feel like people still have Smash 4 goggles on for her and look down on her a bit too much.

I'm not saying she's top tier, or even high tier, I'm not delusional, (maybe close..) but she's got a good kit and strengths that can let her tussle with the best of them. Yet she's consistently ranked near the lower end of mid-tier at best.

Some common complaints:

"Zelda has no approach options"
But, she really shouldn't be approaching that much... with a reflect, dins fire, and a literal wall of armor to stop things, people should be approaching her.

And while her approach options aren't the best she's not completely helpless. It just takes a little more effort to create that opening.

"Zelda cant handle CQC"
Zelda can struggle against a small rushdown character like Pichu once they get inside her zoning tools. Her options aren't great but again, she's not helpless. Tilts/jab help, Nayru's is solid, and Up+B is great out of shield and can help you create some distance.

"Slow Air Speed"
Right, you're not gonna be Jiggs or Yoshi, zippin all over the place and whippin aerials out like the blue angels... She's weak returning to the stage. It's a real problem. If she's above her opponent, it really sucks and you have to get really creative.

Some great things in Zelda's favor:

"Magic Sparkles"
Quite a few of Zelda's attacks have a small disjoint to protect her, but even more so, they've got really high priority to help clash or beat a number of attacks. Many are also multihit, letting the attack continue through a clash and work. She can challenge a lot of attacks if she needs to.

Lastly, them sparkles linger and she's got some very long-lasting, and very wide boxes connected to her attacks. Combined with the priority, she can build a pretty safe offensive-defense.

"Stage Control"
Once Zelda get's you zoned, it can be really hard to challenge her. With Phantom, Din, and some quick "Send you Back to Start" attacks, your opponents approach can become pretty predictable and it can be a tough gauntlet to get through.

"Edge-Guarding"
Din's and Phantom give fantastic pressure offstage and often kills. If you're recovering from above, Up-Air says hi. Little needs to be said here.

"Power"
Zelda has no shortage of kill moves and it doesn't take much to rack up the necessary damage. She's strong. Sweetspotting short-hop fair/bair (quite easy to land), a very fast F-Smash, uair, back throw, Up+B /elevator... closing stocks is not a problem. Something many characters struggle with.

So yeah. There's my castle wall... I'm sure someone will tear it apart brick by brick and rub my nose in it. But again, I'm not saying she's "ERMAGERD THE BEST" I just think she should get a little more respect.

 

[Sean²]

I'd probably say Zelda is a borderline scrub killer. Not quite on the same level as K. Rool or Ganondorf, but close, because people just don't respect her options and can die early because of it. Beyond that, she's just so slow. Get in on her with any character faster than her and she just turns to mush. Make her whiff nearly anything and enjoy a free 30+% punish. Or just kill her because she's so light. Her ledge trapping with the phantom can be hard to deal with, and aerial sweetspots still catch people offguard, but I don't think she has much going for her otherwise. She's not bottom tier any more, just still not fantastic. I'd probably be more likely to toss her in the "I shouldn't lose to this, but they're just so annoying that I don't care" pile with K. Rool.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well i think what defines a "clone" not is not so simple as "the share similar buttons or specials" I mean Marth and Lucina kinda play differently enough from each other now despite being cut from the same cloth so to speak. The same goes for other pairs / play, diffrently from each other
and / play MUCH differently from each other due to having a lot of unique buttons and special input motions.

are the only ones whos diffrences, if any are mostly negligable execept for some special cases. I/E the different elemental properties between Simon/Richters Holy Water

 

[Repli.Cant]

Do really have to be the same? Can't they just... buff one () and leave the other () alone?

 

[MG_3989]

Do really have to be the same? Can't they just... buff one () and leave the other () alone?

I’d be fine with that. I don’t want them to be the same at all, I just want people to have a reason to use Marth

 

[Nah]

Marth and Lucina are definitely clones lol

Having an amazing advantage state when the right opportunity arises is great and all. But if you get blown up just as bad in disadvantage. Or you have flaws that can prevent you from even starting anything in thr first place. A character will be not be able to grasp solo success

basically Smash 4 Robin and why she was not very good in a nutshell

Do really have to be the same? Can't they just... buff one () and leave the other () alone?

iirc they did not get literally all the same changes via patches in Smash 4, there were a few things that only Lucina got and a few things that only Marth got, so it's likely that the same could happen in Ultimate too

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I'd like to build my own castle wall right now on Zelda. I feel like people still have Smash 4 goggles on for her and look down on her a bit too much.

I'm not saying she's top tier, or even high tier, I'm not delusional, (maybe close..) but she's got a good kit and strengths that can let her tussle with the best of them. Yet she's consistently ranked near the lower end of mid-tier at best.

Some common complaints:

"Zelda has no approach options"
But, she really shouldn't be approaching that much... with a reflect, dins fire, and a literal wall of armor to stop things, people should be approaching her.

And while her approach options aren't the best she's not completely helpless. It just takes a little more effort to create that opening.

"Zelda cant handle CQC"
Zelda can struggle against a small rushdown character like Pichu once they get inside her zoning tools. Her options aren't great but again, she's not helpless. Tilts/jab help, Nayru's is solid, and Up+B is great out of shield and can help you create some distance.

"Slow Air Speed"
Right, you're not gonna be Jiggs or Yoshi, zippin all over the place and whippin aerials out like the blue angels... She's weak returning to the stage. It's a real problem. If she's above her opponent, it really sucks and you have to get really creative.

Some great things in Zelda's favor:

"Magic Sparkles"
Quite a few of Zelda's attacks have a small disjoint to protect her, but even more so, they've got really high priority to help clash or beat a number of attacks. Many are also multihit, letting the attack continue through a clash and work. She can challenge a lot of attacks if she needs to.

Lastly, them sparkles linger and she's got some very long-lasting, and very wide boxes connected to her attacks. Combined with the priority, she can build a pretty safe offensive-defense.

"Stage Control"
Once Zelda get's you zoned, it can be really hard to challenge her. With Phantom, Din, and some quick "Send you Back to Start" attacks, your opponents approach can become pretty predictable and it can be a tough gauntlet to get through.

"Edge-Guarding"
Din's and Phantom give fantastic pressure offstage and often kills. If you're recovering from above, Up-Air says hi. Little needs to be said here.

"Power"
Zelda has no shortage of kill moves and it doesn't take much to rack up the necessary damage. She's strong. Sweetspotting short-hop fair/bair (quite easy to land), a very fast F-Smash, uair, back throw, Up+B /elevator... closing stocks is not a problem. Something many characters struggle with.

So yeah. There's my castle wall... I'm sure someone will tear it apart brick by brick and rub my nose in it. But again, I'm not saying she's "ERMAGERD THE BEST" I just think she should get a little more respect.

To be fair the way you described her weakness would give me the impression of a character that would be placed around that area.

Your right Zelda shouldn't be approaching more than her opponent and she has a great tool to control stage and make opponents come to her in phantom. Problem is if you are fast or have a projectile you can mitigate Phantom as she has to spend time charging it enough to take up stage. Phantom is very good if you lack these things but most good characters have one or both so they don't mind. You can't Naryu's and Phantom at the same time so trying to preemptively Naryu's will get you punished since she's a sitting duck while using it from a distance. Din's is better but it still just forces shields in neutral, nothing you need to respect that much and again it takes time to use which lets opponents close space easier.

So great she can still play a decent fortress style gameplay but what does she do when she doesn't have a lead and has to approach? None of those tools aside Phantom help her do that and none of her moves do either.


That doesn't even get into the CQC issue if she can't keep people out. Naryu's only works but so much until your opponent just starts baiting it out and charges a smash attack while your stuck in a long animation. Faore's is a great OOS option but it's also her only one so again a lack of mixups. The risk reward factor is also there with the move, it kills very early and deals good knockback keeping her safe but it also is easy to whiff especially against good spacing and whiffing that move past 80% and that's your stock.

I don't think she's bad but as results look now no one has proven her any better than your average mid tier.

 

[Dcas]

I'd like to build my own castle wall right now on Zelda. I feel like people still have Smash 4 goggles on for her and look down on her a bit too much.

I'm not saying she's top tier, or even high tier, I'm not delusional, (maybe close..) but she's got a good kit and strengths that can let her tussle with the best of them. Yet she's consistently ranked near the lower end of mid-tier at best.

Some common complaints:

"Zelda has no approach options"
But, she really shouldn't be approaching that much... with a reflect, dins fire, and a literal wall of armor to stop things, people should be approaching her.

And while her approach options aren't the best she's not completely helpless. It just takes a little more effort to create that opening.

"Zelda cant handle CQC"
Zelda can struggle against a small rushdown character like Pichu once they get inside her zoning tools. Her options aren't great but again, she's not helpless. Tilts/jab help, Nayru's is solid, and Up+B is great out of shield and can help you create some distance.

"Slow Air Speed"
Right, you're not gonna be Jiggs or Yoshi, zippin all over the place and whippin aerials out like the blue angels... She's weak returning to the stage. It's a real problem. If she's above her opponent, it really sucks and you have to get really creative.

Some great things in Zelda's favor:

"Magic Sparkles"
Quite a few of Zelda's attacks have a small disjoint to protect her, but even more so, they've got really high priority to help clash or beat a number of attacks. Many are also multihit, letting the attack continue through a clash and work. She can challenge a lot of attacks if she needs to.

Lastly, them sparkles linger and she's got some very long-lasting, and very wide boxes connected to her attacks. Combined with the priority, she can build a pretty safe offensive-defense.

"Stage Control"
Once Zelda get's you zoned, it can be really hard to challenge her. With Phantom, Din, and some quick "Send you Back to Start" attacks, your opponents approach can become pretty predictable and it can be a tough gauntlet to get through.

"Edge-Guarding"
Din's and Phantom give fantastic pressure offstage and often kills. If you're recovering from above, Up-Air says hi. Little needs to be said here.

"Power"
Zelda has no shortage of kill moves and it doesn't take much to rack up the necessary damage. She's strong. Sweetspotting short-hop fair/bair (quite easy to land), a very fast F-Smash, uair, back throw, Up+B /elevator... closing stocks is not a problem. Something many characters struggle with.

So yeah. There's my castle wall... I'm sure someone will tear it apart brick by brick and rub my nose in it. But again, I'm not saying she's "ERMAGERD THE BEST" I just think she should get a little more respect.

Zelda is a mediocre character in this game but she is the best zelda we´ve seen.

No amount of labbing or training will adress her issues BUT a patch would make her really interesting. Also this is the best iteration of zelda, at the very least she is not trash like in other games at best she is a mid tier.