Competitive players won't dominate???

[Crispy4001]

no matter how hard the game developers try to balance the game, skill willalways dominate.
Take Mario Kart for instance.
If you suck, (ie: get in 8th, 7th, etc.) you'll get really good items, like lightnings, Peruvian Death Shells (those blue shellS) and Stars. when you rock (1st, 2nd) you'll get crap like the stupiud fake item box or a single green shell.
Oh, and all the characters aer virtually equal there from my Mario Kart experiences.
despite this "balance" skill predomnated/predominates. Smash will be no different.
=2007=

That only goes to an extent. Even though Mario Kart gives out items based on positioning (unlike Smash), it's still a game of hot potato position swap until the track ends. The only time ownage occurs is when the skill gap between players is huge.


Smash doesn't even dole out items based on stocks (unless you count the pity Final Smash). Anyone can luck out and be right in position to grab a good item/FS. That's actually a better thing from a competitive standpoint than the way Mario Kart handles it ... but not by much. It's still a buffer that lessens the importance and impact of smart play.

 

[Tank McCannon]

This post won the thread, and it's exactly how I feel. Yeah, I've spent a lot of time learning the wavedash and never finding the slightest use for it, but the game should come down to how well you know your character, how well you know your opponent's character, and how well you know how to beat that character. Strategy should outweigh silly glitchskills, always.

So what if they're trying to make it just a bit easier to play. When you think about what they've told us, they've not done anything except make the up tilt easier to do.

I love you for coming up with the term "glitchskills", but I'll have to disagree, brother.

First off, I'd like to say that the person that practiced their technical skills the most doesn't win all the time. Whoever is the smartest will win all the time. Advanced techs can help to speed up your gameplay, but they aren't needed. Advanced techs are there, but are simply an option.

And knowing how you're character used these "glitchskills" (sorry, I really like that word) was part of knowing your character.

So yeah, you are right that strategy will always win over "glitchskills", but your view on "glitchskills" was a little eh, but I dunno, that's just me.

Did I mention I love the word "glitchskills"?

"glitchskills""glitchskills""glitchskills""glitchskills""glitchskills"

 

[Tank McCannon]

Aniki is amazing at Smash Bros. Aniki is my idol Smash Bros player. AND he uses mid-tier characters. X3


Utilising a glitch in Mario Kart DS (snaking) ruin's the games fun and makes it too competetive, and other players get annoyed about it. I can imagine wavedashing is a similar case. Anyone can snake, but people choose not to do it, because they feel it ruins their fun. It's why people make "no snaking" rules for online matches. Mario Kart is more of a party game, but I wouldn't be surprised if wavedashing was in Brawl and similar things happened.

You do know that Nintendo came out and said Snaking was okay, right?

Anywho, the point of Brawl is to have fun with it. Sakurai even said that he wants people to play the game the way that they want to play it. I like playing competitively, so when I'm playing to win, items ruin my fun. That's why he gave us the option to turn them off. Like you mentioned with "no snaking" rules for online matches, there's nothing stopping you from making "no advanced tech" matches online.

Options, they are a wonderful thing.

 

[NES n00b]

Why did you ask this question? In all honesty.

 

[Don Tyrant]

I still think experience will show in matches, but I do think the removal of (some) advanced techniques is a good thing. Winning should be about knowing your opponent's weaknesses, striking at the right time with the right skill, unpredictable movement, etc. It shouldn't boil down to who spent longer practicing wavedashes and the like. Especially now we have an online mode.

In the end I think it'll be better for competitive players AND newcomers.

ur such a noob by saying that (we know u cant wavedash or l cancel) , just bcuz u cANT WAVEDASH OR l cancel doesnt mean its useless. compettive players dont learn dat stuff 2 be fancy they learn it to incorporate mindgames n so they wont leave themselves open. seriously if u dont understand then u have never played competitively

 

[Don Tyrant]

I think, exactly like melee, pros will develop new skills and tricks over time.

It really annoys me how so many people just assumed this was Melee 2.0. That all the little tricks and quirks, that could have quite possibly been gameplay glitches, would all return.

Half the fun of pro playing is exploring characters and the game mechanics, discovering new moves and techniques that the game may or may not have intended.

If Brawl was just Melee 2.0 it would be a **** waste. Fox again dominating the leagues.

Keep in mind this quote probably relates to the use of items and the like. The inclusion of Smash Balls gives new players a better chance of doing well. In itemless 1-on-1 the better player will still come out on top.

right on, someone who understands the concept of a NEW GAME.

 

[Michael Blaine]

The same thing will happen. Everyone will start out fairly even. Soon, it will be evident that a rift has formed. Techniques will be uncovered. Many will use them, while an endless stream of people who don't understand will firmly hate the idea. Some will spend a great deal of time practicing and competing and getting better- the bitter and the mediocre will call them silly names like "tourney***s", and others will simply play for fun and avoid the whole business.
Names will rise to infamy. Countless vids will be posted. 5-8 years later when Super Smash Bros Rampage is announced Smashboards will be flooded with "Is Goober Canceling in?" "Yay, Sakurai took out wall tumbling!" "Does skip flopping add depth?" posts.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Competitive players will ALWAYS dominate because they are devoted to perfecting their play so they can compete against the best of the best. Casual players will always be mediocre at best. The gap between the two may be narrower, but it will still be there, and it will still ensure victory for those who strive towards it.

 

[Crispy4001]

Competitive players will ALWAYS dominate because they are devoted to perfecting their play so they can compete against the best of the best. Casual players will always be mediocre at best. The gap between the two may be narrower, but it will still be there, and it will still ensure victory for those who strive towards it.

The better player will win most of the time, but not as often or consistently as they should be based on their playing. At least as long as Smash Balls, the Dragoon, hammers, maximum tomatoes, etc are on.

 

[S2]

I read the interview and I think Sakurai is referring to items.

Some of the items and the Smash ball really lend themselves to quick turn arounds.

That being said, I think he's dead wrong. Even with items, good players are still going to accelerate. It'll just be that every once and a while, a good player will lose to a skilled (but less skilled) player due to lucky item grabs.

 

[ForteX]

I love you for coming up with the term "glitchskills", but I'll have to disagree, brother.

First off, I'd like to say that the person that practiced their technical skills the most doesn't win all the time. Whoever is the smartest will win all the time. Advanced techs can help to speed up your gameplay, but they aren't needed. Advanced techs are there, but are simply an option.

And knowing how you're character used these "glitchskills" (sorry, I really like that word) was part of knowing your character.

So yeah, you are right that strategy will always win over "glitchskills", but your view on "glitchskills" was a little eh, but I dunno, that's just me.

Did I mention I love the word "glitchskills"?

"glitchskills""glitchskills""glitchskills""glitchskills""glitchskills"

Glad you like it. And the way you said it more reflects my opinions on them. I'm just terrible at writing down my point of view exactly as it is.

Competitive players will ALWAYS dominate because they are devoted to perfecting their play so they can compete against the best of the best. Casual players will always be mediocre at best. The gap between the two may be narrower, but it will still be there, and it will still ensure victory for those who strive towards it.

That's the absolute truth. Anyone who pours more time into playing a game/doing something is the one who will be better at it, that's the same for everything anyone will ever do. There is nothing they can do to a game that can make a first timer instantly play as good as someone who's been playing the same game for years, unless the system could know that and put you at a SEVERE disadvantage, under which I personally know I could probably still pull out a win against someone like, say, my mom. (Say... I could have one life and she could have three, I would still win.) That's just the way it works. No amount of advanced moves/ glitchskills (I'm starting to like it myself ) can change that.

 

[matthewmilad]

You, sir, are a prime example of why I often regret discovering the internet and places like this. You just so up yourself and bothered about winning at all costs. It really sucks the fun out of a game like Smash.

I hate it when people read too much into something. >_>

"Waah, I don't like it when people learn things. Especially when that makes them smarter and better than me, I just don't like that at all!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!"

 

[Kadian]

Yeah, I've spent a lot of time learning the wavedash and never finding the slightest use for it, but the game should come down to how well you know your character, how well you know your opponent's character, and how well you know how to beat that character. Strategy should outweigh silly glitchskills, always.

Most posters here maintain the stance that "Better players will still win", yet don't explain themselves to poor shlubs like this guy, who doesn't seem get it yet. Here's my attempt to clarify.

When you say "the game should come down to how well you know your character, how well you know your opponent's character, and how well you know how to beat that character", you're right. YOUR EXACTLY RIGHT. That is the main thrust of competitive play; know your limits, utilize your best options, and keep down the other guy's. Advanced techs, as many people seem to call more complicated skills with much disdain, is simply part of knowing you and your opponent's characters. Here's the thing: There Are No Illegal Moves That the Game Allows. Your copy of Melee, or Smash 64, or Brawl, only knows who wins and loses. Other than the special match rules all contestants agree to beforehand, the game everything you can do in it.

What ultimately separates pros and scrubs is not advanced techs, nor will the apparent loss of l-cancel and wavedash in Brawl lessen the gap between them. What separates the two is the mindset of the pro to learn everything possible, the willingness to explore the extreme corner-cases of the game, the resolve to expose himself to failure many times in order to gain as much experience as he can, and the discipline to put the time and effort and hard work to put into practical use the high level of understanding and depth the scrub doesn't even see as possible. The scrub neither wants the knowledge, nor seeks the challenge, and fears the failure.

So when the scrub plays the pro, and suffers a defeat, rather than subdue his pride and look for aid and advice from his defeater to improve himself, he instead chooses to believe no man his superior and says the pro cheated, used glitchskills, and that he himself is the better man.

If you don't want to achieve a high proficiency at Brawl, that's OK. There are many deserving causes towards which to expend your energy; there are many things in this life worth doing. But never make the mistake of criticizing one man's mastery of his craft unless you're willing to walk in his shoes.

 

[Sliq]

The moment Brawl comes out high level competitive players will dominate casuals, no mistake.

Dash dancing will be the new wavedashing, and casuals will complain about it, even though all it is is tapping left and righ on the stick, something I can do with my feet.

The casuals will be spamming roll, and the competitives will be DD'ing, and murdering the **** out of their predictable *****.

Brawl noobs will fight nearly identical to Melee noobs. It'll be the competitives that will be fighting differently.

It is only a matter of time before noobs find something else completely unbroken to complain about.

Nothing will change.

 

[yoshi_fan]

The good players will be good.

The bad players will be bad.

But everyone will have an opportunity. This is the important thing i think.

 

[RT]

Honestly, in the beginning, the only thing that will intially separate people from each other is their spacing, mindgames, and how well they understand the game. People shouldn't treat this game as though it is Melee 2.0. Some things will carryover (knowing how to use DI is the big example), but try to play the game as though it were your first time playing any Smash game. Experiment, practice, learn.

Knowing what moves are effective, what to do in certain situations, and the ability to learn and adapt to different play-styles will certainly give a person a major advantage. In time, when advanced techniques are discovered through constant testing and practice and even sometimes pure luck, the line between competitive and casuals will be drawn.

There shouldn't be any worries about the competitive scene.

 

[Lightning Ice]

Sakurai is referring to an environment with items on and luck runs rampant. In any serious match people will turn off broken items and make sure that the better player wins.

 

[Lord Knight]

Many would. I wouldn't.

This is why I don't snake in Mario Kart. In a racing games, straights are for driving straight on. Hence, the name. Mini-turbos are for use around corners. This is why Nintendo should make it so that they require a bigger turn of the wheel to perform in MKWii. So that anyone who thinks about snaking really DOES need to zig-zag wildly down the track. Thereby rendering the speed boost negligible.

I wouldn't object to any advanced techniques if they were actually documented in the manual or training modes. As they are you can only learn about them by accident or by studying some "advanced tech FAQ" online. Removing them levels the playing field, which is better for all of us. You want more competition online, right? Well allow the not-so-dedicated players to give you a good game once in a while.

Lol. If that was so we'd have no reason to practice and explore the game's mechanics.

 

[Kadian]

Anyone who pours more time into playing a game/doing something is the one who will be better at it, that's the same for everything anyone will ever do. There is nothing they can do to a game that can make a first timer instantly play as good as someone who's been playing the same game for years

Oh, I see you clarified your position. I think we see eye-to-eye.

 

[Lavos]

Wow, the number of people on this board who just don't get it never ceases to amaze me.

No one has ever won because they knew advanced techs. Wavedashing and L canceling don't win matches. They just don't! If winning in Melee hinged on tech skill, Silent Wolf would be the best player in the game. Phanna would be in the top ten. Are either of these players even close to that? No! Tech skill doesn't beat mindgames. It's a fact.

On another note, when you get your *** kicked by a competitive player, and you feel like you were outclassed, THAT'S BECAUSE YOU WERE OUTCLASSED!!!! There's nothing wrong with the fact that you got outclassed! I get outclassed on a daily basis! I don't want them to dumb down the game for me. I want to learn from these guys and become a better player so I can compete! Honestly, if you get completely destroyed by someone in Melee, get ready to be beaten in Brawl. That person is not going to become magically stupider, and you won't become instantly smarter. Too many people want instant results with no work these days.

 

[Kadian]

Sakurai is referring to an environment with items on and luck runs rampant. In any serious match people will turn off broken items and make sure that the better player wins.

Exactly. The context of his comments were with regards to Final Smashes specifically, and items and all random stages in general. Standard tournament rules, wthout items and a pared down legal stage list, were made to reduce this random luck as much as possible so that we can foster an environment where pure player skill prevails, rather than an environment where "anything can happen", which is often a very fun and relaxing way to play, but not one where you would wager money and pride.

 

[marth marth marth]

better players will win, that's how it's always been and how it always will be

 

[NJzFinest]

I'd say that its an improvement since I am a player who is fairly good but I do not wavedash.

I believe wavedashing is not a legitimate skill and it is unfair to use it in the game. It was not meant to be included in the game but was exploited upon discovery with the excuse that if you wavedash your "pro".

Other fighting games such as some of the street fighter series or guilty gear include techniques like cancelling and air dashing or roman cancelling in their games OFFICIALLY. Smash is a fun game that is for everyone, and everyone should have an equal chance to win.

DO NOT

I repeat...

DO NOT bring bull**** into my thread. Same thing goes for you Fortex.

Thank you.

Usually I would break apart this type of posts and reply stating why each point is so wrong, but I don't have to time as of now.



On the side note, I'm glad to see the insightful posters sharing their opinions.
Please continue.

 

[DalzK]

luck can only get you so far

 

[mewtwo_to_you_too]

skill is always what decides the winner but because of that smash ball it might change the outcome of a match

 

[PyrasTerran]

On an outside glance,

it seems that the steps to reaching a high level of skill in Melee is in this progression:

1) Start playing the game and learning all the "manual techniques" front and back -> 2) Learn how to perform the many "advanced techniques" like wavedashing and the like, -> 3) Learn to use everthing you've learned from 1 and 2 to develop your game.

Ultimately it is the skill of the user, not the techniques he learns, that define victory.

Still, wavedashing and a few other melee tricks that require precise finger coordination that some people can never, ever learn simply because they do not have the digit dexterity for it, only serve to strengthen the walls that prevent potential new champions from reaching the ranks of their superior brethren.

What Brawl has done, at least from what we know, is help lower the fence that is stage 2 of developing your skills so that younger and/or less experienced Smashers will have several new abilities to help them against competitive players.

As a bonus, competitive players now have a new sleuth of abilities(footstool jump, gliding, wall-cling, moving after air-dodges, auto-edge grab) that can still make them downright invincible against a newbie if they so choose to be as merciless.

It cannot be denied that if two equally-skilled players used the same character they are both equally skilled at, and one uses advanced techniques and the other does not, that the one used advanced techniques will have an advantage simply because he can move faster than his opponent. Brawl looks like it's making those(and new) advanced techniques more accessible for beginners and Smashers who want to get better.

I say, the more competition, the better.

There will always be a gap between the advanced and the novice, but at least Brawl is helping to make both sides realize that they are both human beings, and help connect with each other in a less hostile manner than Melee may have influenced.

 

[Deadlypudding]

This may be the only post I'll ever make here, since I prefer to read through the topics rather than interjecting my opinion. As such expect a bit of a read ahead.

First and foremost, there is absolutely no stance I, nor anyone else, could take and not anger half of the other members who are posting in this topic. Even if the stance is comepletely unbiased, impartial, and neutral it will still tick someone off. I told one of my best friends one time that I didn't have an opinion one way or another on some band and he completely flipped out about it. Can you believe that people can even hate neutrality? Its just bizarre to me.

Now, I'm not defending myself so I feel its completely unecessary to describe my Smash Bros. playing habits, though many will immediately assume that means I'm some casual jerk-off or at best a scrub. Let me be straight, when I play, I have fun, but I play to win. I don't like admitting that sometimes but its true. I don't care if I piss off my friends by kicking their *** with Fox or rocking their world with Sheik. I don't have remorse from causing my friends (and even my girlfriend sometimes, uh-oh) to scream a long stream of obscenities in my direction while simeltaneously throwing my Gamecube controller across the room. Its their fault for getting so worked up over a game. Do I get mad when I lose? Yeah, who doesn't? I don't throw controllers, or cuss really loud. I just nod and take it.

To further clarify, I don't play in tournaments, and I have two big reasons.
1. I live in backwoods hell.
2. Despite being the best gamer I have ever met (this is not from pride but just simply the truth. remember backwoods hell? Also one of my friends is almost as good, he can beat me on occasion), I don't have the courage to try and step up to the next level.

Why would I not believe in myself enough to go further? I know all the techs. I consistently beat everyone I know including the one friend that almost matches me. Both of us play several games together and play on the same level as pros and tournament goers. Why don't I just try one?

The answer is very very simple. I love the variety from playing with my friends. Don't get me wrong, some of the best matches I've had have been "no items, Battlefield or Final Destination, or Fountain of Dreams". However, I just don't want to exclude myself to only one gametype. I know, I know that I can always play with my friends, but to me every moment not practicing the game for the next tourney would be a waste. So I say why should I bother if I won't be happy doing it?

So what does all of this have to do with Brawl's competitive play? Well it means I'd be more inclined to actually play Brawl tourneys now. Granted those tourneys allow the Smash Ball. Of course its chances look grim, as it can come as a pity FS thus possibly affecting a tourney balance, but I'd like to think that it won't happen enough to really matter anyway. Most of you may find this silly and are thinking, "why hasn't he mentioned wavedashing/L-cancelling/waveshining/Shffling?". Well mainly because they just won't be important. We know they are gone/changed, no sense crying over it. there'll be new techniques. Personally, I'd love it if the game didn't have any advanced techniques that require abuse of the games physics. Hell I'd like it if the game didn't have any advance techs at all. Doesn't keep me from winning against my friends all of the time. It probably won't even improve their chances.

As echoed throughout this entire thread, A good player will always be good, better players will always be better.

I'm not done yet though. I have some good news for all of the novice-intermediate players in this thread. Don't listen to what the pros tourney players say. If you don't want to play the way they play, you don't have to its your **** game. However, there is no reason to try and impose the way you play onto others (this also includes some elites). If I didn't use wavedashing and L-cancelling (which to be honest I don't anymore since I don't play tourneys. It just makes my friends even madder lol) I wouldn't be mad if someone did. Sure they have an edge if they use those techniques properly, but if I lose its because they were just better. I won't whine about cheating, I play FPS games so I know about cheating and about techs that weren't inteded originally for ingame use. Cheating is when someone has infinite ammo, or super-fast speed, or invincibility. This is done by modding the parameters for the game. Advance techniques are not cheating because they don't involve the game's engine being changed. As such they can be done by anyone. Take bunny-hopping in FPS games for an example. Originally found in Quake II, bunny-hopping has become a mainstay in fast-paced deathmatch FPS games (Unreal Tournament, Quake III, there's a big one I'm missing here). However, you won't find this mechanic in tectics based FPS games. Why? Because it doesn't fit the game style. Tactical FPS games rely on teamplay and strategy. Well I kind of went for a tangent there but it does relate back to Brawl. Mainly I think the developers found wavedashing (and other techs) to be detractors from the overall gameplay. Am I mad they took it out? As I've already said, no. Its like bunny-hopping. Some games it works and others it doesn't. I'm not broken up about it if I can't do it (in fact I prefer tactical shooters).

I kinda strayed a bit from the topic at hand, but I feel I touched upon points that were hotly disputed in this topic. In closing I want to remind everyone that we all start out as beginners. We are all given the tools from which to suceed. It is the choice of the beginner to decide whether to use these tools or to ignore them. In no way can you not suceed without every tool, but the path is significantly more difficult if you choose to do so. The only garanteed way to suceed with these tools are through practice, dedication, understanding of the others around you trying to suceed, and a little natural talent never hurt.

 

[Igneous42]

The gap will be smaller, and the competitive scene will be easier to get into. But it will stille exist.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Basically, we can only assume Brawl is going to touch up on this (obviously since techs such as wavedashing and l-canceling haven't been seen in the recent demo).


What do you other competitive players think about this? (well, the ones who actually go to Brawl Discussion lol)
How do you lower and more casual players feel?

I love this. Not only did they implement features to help the lower players like the Final Smash and new items, along with moderating game speed, hopefully this will destroy the ********, proud, stuck-up, assholish elitist community and attitude that follows the competitive "FINAL FOXINATION!!11" players that stink up the joyful, simple, childish fun that is Smash Bros.

 

[yoshi_fan]

On an outside glance,

it seems that the steps to reaching a high level of skill in Melee is in this progression:

1) Start playing the game and learning all the "manual techniques" front and back -> 2) Learn how to perform the many "advanced techniques" like wavedashing and the like, -> 3) Learn to use everthing you've learned from 1 and 2 to develop your game.

Ultimately it is the skill of the user, not the techniques he learns, that define victory.

Still, wavedashing and a few other melee tricks that require precise finger coordination that some people can never, ever learn simply because they do not have the digit dexterity for it, only serve to strengthen the walls that prevent potential new champions from reaching the ranks of their superior brethren.

What Brawl has done, at least from what we know, is help lower the fence that is stage 2 of developing your skills so that younger and/or less experienced Smashers will have several new abilities to help them against competitive players.

As a bonus, competitive players now have a new sleuth of abilities(footstool jump, gliding, wall-cling, moving after air-dodges, auto-edge grab) that can still make them downright invincible against a newbie if they so choose to be as merciless.

It cannot be denied that if two equally-skilled players used the same character they are both equally skilled at, and one uses advanced techniques and the other does not, that the one used advanced techniques will have an advantage simply because he can move faster than his opponent. Brawl looks like it's making those(and new) advanced techniques more accessible for beginners and Smashers who want to get better.

I say, the more competition, the better.

There will always be a gap between the advanced and the novice, but at least Brawl is helping to make both sides realize that they are both human beings, and help connect with each other in a less hostile manner than Melee may have influenced.

QFT rooster said

 

[Twilight Emblem]

Smarter players experiment and try to find combo friendly techniques in which they advance onto a crafted level of their own play to make smart approaches that lead into big unique combos for punishment.

The pros would still dominate because they could do way more damage when punishing. Not to mention they'd be way more effective at finding openings to start combos from hell than a noob.

Being able to spot mistakes and punish often with huge damage from punishing will set people apart. As well as being ready for many different situations that will come with time and experience.

We all know some people are going to get good enough in brawl to the point that allowing them to grab you would lead to a punishment worthy of a death combo/easy spike/edgehog/etc and you'd have to live with the fact that you just lost a stock all because you didn't sidestep

 

[WastingPenguins]

I love this. Not only did they implement features to help the lower players like the Final Smash and new items, along with moderating game speed, hopefully this will destroy the ********, proud, stuck-up, assholish elitist community and attitude that follows the competitive "FINAL FOXINATION!!11" players that stink up the joyful, simple, childish fun that is Smash Bros.

God I hate all competitive sports, people who play basketball on a team are just stinking up the simple, childish, joyful fun of H-O-R-S-E in my driveway.

God I hate people who play poker and other card games for money. It just stinks up the simple joyful childish fun of playing for cheez-its.

Etc. etc. ad infinitum.

 

[Adi]

Still, wavedashing and a few other melee tricks that require precise finger coordination that some people can never, ever learn simply because they do not have the digit dexterity for it, only serve to strengthen the walls that prevent potential new champions from reaching the ranks of their superior brethren.

If someone doesn't have the mental capacity or determination to push three buttons at almost simultaneous times it's probably a given that they don't have the requisites to reach a tournament level.

It cannot be denied that if two equally-skilled players used the same character they are both equally skilled at, and one uses advanced techniques and the other does not, that the one used advanced techniques will have an advantage simply because he can move faster than his opponent.

What defines skill? Apparently for you technical ability is irrelevant so I assume it all comes from mental prowess. In that case it seems that one player is able to operate on a fluent technical level WHILE predicting and adapting to his opponent at the same level that his technically inferior counterpart is. It seems pretty obvious to me who should win.

Brawl looks like it's making those(and new) advanced techniques more accessible for beginners and Smashers who want to get better.

Who's to say? In the end the advanced strategies are concocted by the players, and Brawl could result in technical skill being even more necessary than it was in Melee. No one can decide that now, but I would advise noobs against taking the mindset that Brawl will open the competitive doors for them.

(Wall of Text)

Great first post! You're the kind of competitive players don't mind. On the other hand...

I love this. Not only did they implement features to help the lower players like the Final Smash and new items, along with moderating game speed, hopefully this will destroy the ********, proud, stuck-up, assholish elitist community and attitude that follows the competitive "FINAL FOXINATION!!11" players that stink up the joyful, simple, childish fun that is Smash Bros.

Please die, you're on the ****ing site of those "********, proud, stuck-up, assholish, elitist community" you ****ing twathead.

 

[SuperRad]

I haven't read this whole topic, but I think that the top players will dominate still because they are smarter.
I'll compare this to the jump from Halo 1->Halo 2, and their competitive scenes. H2 takes less shooting skill, and has an overall different skill set. It's more about team work then just having the best pure players thrown together on one team.
Wanna know who dominated the H2 scene? The best team from Halo 1. Even though it was a "more level" playing field, they knew the game better and could out think most opponents.

I'm guessing Melee->Brawl will be similar. The top players do not use technical skills as a crutch. They are a tool of their mind.

However, I could see the mid level of the game losing some disparity. Here, in norcal, there are tons of technically able fox and falco players that lie in the midlevel of players. Will they drop down once they cant take advantage of their technical ability? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Pink Reaper]

The moment Brawl comes out high level competitive players will dominate casuals, no mistake.

Dash dancing will be the new wavedashing, and casuals will complain about it, even though all it is is tapping left and righ on the stick, something I can do with my feet.

The casuals will be spamming roll, and the competitives will be DD'ing, and murdering the **** out of their predictable *****.

Brawl noobs will fight nearly identical to Melee noobs. It'll be the competitives that will be fighting differently.

It is only a matter of time before noobs find something else completely unbroken to complain about.

Nothing will change.

HOLY ****! Sliq actually posted something non-sarcastic, on topic and slightly insightful o_O

This really is true, a scrub will often complain about ANYTHING that he cant do and say its the reason he lost. But here's the thing, if you've ever played someone who can Wavedash and L-cancel, you would realize that all they do is increase movement speed. Wavedashing does no damage to YOU, it doesn't stop you from attacking, it doesn't decrease your chances of winning. The fact that all you do is roll and C-Stick Fsmash is what caused you to lose(hyperbole, I doubt alot of people actually still do that) Competitive players have learned their character to a degree that casuals have not. They know why sometimes Marth's Dair hits their opponent straight down and sometimes it doesn't, and they know how to space it so they ALWAYS get the downward hit. Competitive players know that an Utilt can lead to a Rest at low damages. Competitve players know that a Shine will cause you to fall at a downward angle. None of this has anything to do with L-canceling or Wavedashing, its just that they know their character BETTER than you do. They know what will work and what wont work. If all you do is roll, and you always seem to get hit after your roll and you always lose, its not because your opponent was being "cheap" its because your strategy doesn't work.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'd say that its an improvement since I am a player who is fairly good but I do not wavedash.

You assume that the wavedash is used to dictate skill upon the tournament community, and you claim that you are a good player even though you have no recognition. I doubt my many extremes that you are good by our standards, but probaly a casual standard. I'll just say this, the Wavedash doesn't dictate player skill, but is an essantial technique.

I believe wavedashing is not a legitimate skill and it is unfair to use it in the game. It was not meant to be included in the game but was exploited upon discovery with the excuse that if you wavedash your "pro".

Like I said, no one is dictating that notion, it's just that the Wavedash is an essential technique that can be used optionally in tournament play. At this level of play, the technique isn't necessarily advanced either. All it really requires is muscle memory.
Many a people have came here just to make blatant assumptions about the tournament community, whether it be how we play or the techniques we use, but what your saying is just a summary of the typical misinformed noob argument. And i'm sure I can speak on behalf of the competitive smash community when I say i'm sick of the bull ****.

The wavedash isn't necessarily a broken technique or a glitch for the matter. It's just canceling out your air dodge animation when you touch the ground. Since the momentum is still present, you slide across the ground. But simply implementing this technique in your gameplay without knowledge can actually further hinder your game play; thinking that you will miraculously win by some follious imitation of a professional player. You can wavedash across the screen all you want, but it still isn't going to earn you a KO.

So with respect, may you please share your hypothesis on why the Wavedash is cheap and unfair?

Other fighting games such as some of the street fighter series or guilty gear include techniques like cancelling and air dashing or roman cancelling in their games OFFICIALLY. Smash is a fun game that is for everyone, and everyone should have an equal chance to win.

Your argument is completely flawed.

Video games have many exploits that can be used to their advantage, because no competitive game doesn't have exploits. And since you want to put Guilty Gear in to perspective, what about Jump Install? Yeah, that's not in the manual, but it's one of the most fundamental techniques in the game. If the technique was so bad it would hae been removed in the latest Guilty Gear Installments, such as XX Slash and Accent Core.

Some game exploits in games can be potentialy harmful, but minor occurences such as the wavedash are nothing more than creative exploits created by small legitimate techniques. Sure, the demographic for smashs bros appeals to a general audience, but the game was designed to be played in a wide plethora of ways besides the "Party" style.

What suprises me the most is that new players don't posses the ability to acknowledge another players co-existance, nor respect them. Yet we have cooperated with your terms of playing.

No one is here to judge you or to accuse you of playing in a way that disrespects the community, we just want to play smash, whether it be a competitive game or a party game.

So for everyone's sake, stop talking. We don't care about what you think is fair or what isn't fair. I'm really sick of all of you noobs with your inferiority/superiority complexes.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Of course competitive players will win.

Casuals just don't have the ridiculous and insane dedication that competitive players do.

And besides, they'll spend so much time on Brawl, that new tricks will come up. We can't escape them. Even with perfect programming they'll find a way to tweak it.

Get used to getting owned.

<annoyance>

EDIT: Then again, if adv techs are easier to do in Brawl, I'll be happier. Seriously, I think that was my window of suckage in Melee. I had literally everything else in the bag, but I couldn't Wavedash nor L-cancel (at least consitantly) enough to go tourney.

 

[legendofme]

This may be the only post I'll ever make here, since I prefer to read through the topics rather than interjecting my opinion. As such expect a bit of a read ahead.

First and foremost, there is absolutely no stance I, nor anyone else, could take and not anger half of the other members who are posting in this topic. Even if the stance is comepletely unbiased, impartial, and neutral it will still tick someone off. I told one of my best friends one time that I didn't have an opinion one way or another on some band and he completely flipped out about it. Can you believe that people can even hate neutrality? Its just bizarre to me.

Now, I'm not defending myself so I feel its completely unecessary to describe my Smash Bros. playing habits, though many will immediately assume that means I'm some casual jerk-off or at best a scrub. Let me be straight, when I play, I have fun, but I play to win. I don't like admitting that sometimes but its true. I don't care if I piss off my friends by kicking their *** with Fox or rocking their world with Sheik. I don't have remorse from causing my friends (and even my girlfriend sometimes, uh-oh) to scream a long stream of obscenities in my direction while simeltaneously throwing my Gamecube controller across the room. Its their fault for getting so worked up over a game. Do I get mad when I lose? Yeah, who doesn't? I don't throw controllers, or cuss really loud. I just nod and take it.

To further clarify, I don't play in tournaments, and I have two big reasons.
1. I live in backwoods hell.
2. Despite being the best gamer I have ever met (this is not from pride but just simply the truth. remember backwoods hell? Also one of my friends is almost as good, he can beat me on occasion), I don't have the courage to try and step up to the next level.

Why would I not believe in myself enough to go further? I know all the techs. I consistently beat everyone I know including the one friend that almost matches me. Both of us play several games together and play on the same level as pros and tournament goers. Why don't I just try one?

The answer is very very simple. I love the variety from playing with my friends. Don't get me wrong, some of the best matches I've had have been "no items, Battlefield or Final Destination, or Fountain of Dreams". However, I just don't want to exclude myself to only one gametype. I know, I know that I can always play with my friends, but to me every moment not practicing the game for the next tourney would be a waste. So I say why should I bother if I won't be happy doing it?

So what does all of this have to do with Brawl's competitive play? Well it means I'd be more inclined to actually play Brawl tourneys now. Granted those tourneys allow the Smash Ball. Of course its chances look grim, as it can come as a pity FS thus possibly affecting a tourney balance, but I'd like to think that it won't happen enough to really matter anyway. Most of you may find this silly and are thinking, "why hasn't he mentioned wavedashing/L-cancelling/waveshining/Shffling?". Well mainly because they just won't be important. We know they are gone/changed, no sense crying over it. there'll be new techniques. Personally, I'd love it if the game didn't have any advanced techniques that require abuse of the games physics. Hell I'd like it if the game didn't have any advance techs at all. Doesn't keep me from winning against my friends all of the time. It probably won't even improve their chances.

As echoed throughout this entire thread, A good player will always be good, better players will always be better.

I'm not done yet though. I have some good news for all of the novice-intermediate players in this thread. Don't listen to what the pros tourney players say. If you don't want to play the way they play, you don't have to its your **** game. However, there is no reason to try and impose the way you play onto others (this also includes some elites). If I didn't use wavedashing and L-cancelling (which to be honest I don't anymore since I don't play tourneys. It just makes my friends even madder lol) I wouldn't be mad if someone did. Sure they have an edge if they use those techniques properly, but if I lose its because they were just better. I won't whine about cheating, I play FPS games so I know about cheating and about techs that weren't inteded originally for ingame use. Cheating is when someone has infinite ammo, or super-fast speed, or invincibility. This is done by modding the parameters for the game. Advance techniques are not cheating because they don't involve the game's engine being changed. As such they can be done by anyone. Take bunny-hopping in FPS games for an example. Originally found in Quake II, bunny-hopping has become a mainstay in fast-paced deathmatch FPS games (Unreal Tournament, Quake III, there's a big one I'm missing here). However, you won't find this mechanic in tectics based FPS games. Why? Because it doesn't fit the game style. Tactical FPS games rely on teamplay and strategy. Well I kind of went for a tangent there but it does relate back to Brawl. Mainly I think the developers found wavedashing (and other techs) to be detractors from the overall gameplay. Am I mad they took it out? As I've already said, no. Its like bunny-hopping. Some games it works and others it doesn't. I'm not broken up about it if I can't do it (in fact I prefer tactical shooters).

I kinda strayed a bit from the topic at hand, but I feel I touched upon points that were hotly disputed in this topic. In closing I want to remind everyone that we all start out as beginners. We are all given the tools from which to suceed. It is the choice of the beginner to decide whether to use these tools or to ignore them. In no way can you not suceed without every tool, but the path is significantly more difficult if you choose to do so. The only garanteed way to suceed with these tools are through practice, dedication, understanding of the others around you trying to suceed, and a little natural talent never hurt.

The longest 1st post I ever seen in my life.

 

[Pink Reaper]

You assume that the wavedash is used to dictate skill upon the tournament community, and you claim that you are a good player even though you have no recognition. I doubt my many extremes that you are good by our standards, but probaly a casual standard. I'll just say this, the Wavedash doesn't dictate player skill, but is an essantial technique.



Like I said, no one is dictating that notion, it's just that the Wavedash is an essential technique that can be used optionally in tournament play. At this level of play, the technique isn't necessarily advanced either. All it really requires is muscle memory.
Many a people have came here just to make blatant assumptions about the tournament community, whether it be how we play or the techniques we use, but what your saying is just a summary of the typical misinformed noob argument. And i'm sure I can speak on behalf of the competitive smash community when I say i'm sick of the bull ****.

The wavedash isn't necessarily a broken technique or a glitch for the matter. It's just canceling out your air dodge animation when you touch the ground. Since the momentum is still present, you slide across the ground. But simply implementing this technique in your gameplay without knowledge can actually further hinder your game play; thinking that you will miraculously win by some follious imitation of a professional player. You can wavedash across the screen all you want, but it still isn't going to earn you a KO.

So with respect, may you please share your hypothesis on why the Wavedash is cheap and unfair?



Your argument is completely flawed.

Video games have many exploits that can be used to their advantage, because no competitive game doesn't have exploits. And since you want to put Guilty Gear in to perspective, what about Jump Install? Yeah, that's not in the manual, but it's one of the most fundamental techniques in the game. If the technique was so bad it would hae been removed in the latest Guilty Gear Installments, such as XX Slash and Accent Core.

Some game exploits in games can be potentialy harmful, but minor occurences such as the wavedash are nothing more than creative exploits created by small legitimate techniques. Sure, the demographic for smashs bros appeals to a general audience, but the game was designed to be played in a wide plethora of ways besides the "Party" style.

What suprises me the most is that new players don't posses the ability to acknowledge another players co-existance, nor respect them. Yet we have cooperated with your terms of playing.

No one is here to judge you or to accuse you of playing in a way that disrespects the community, we just want to play smash, whether it be a competitive game or a party game.

So for everyone's sake, stop talking. We don't care about what you think is fair or what isn't fair. I'm really sick of all of you noobs with your inferiority/superiority complexes.

High FIve.

 

[Sliq]

I love this. Not only did they implement features to help the lower players like the Final Smash and new items, along with moderating game speed, hopefully this will destroy the ********, proud, stuck-up, assholish elitist community and attitude that follows the competitive "FINAL FOXINATION!!11" players that stink up the joyful, simple, childish fun that is Smash Bros.

If I could, I would time travel, find your pregnant mom, and push her down a flight of stairs.