Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[Ansou]

I still feel like some custom moves make certain characters too good. I'd be fine with having my custom side b though

I really don't understand what your definition of "too good" is... Is it if they make the character better than default Sheik? Better than Brawl Meta Knight?

 

[Stromp]

I really don't understand what your definition of "too good" is... Is it if they make the character better than default Sheik? Better than Brawl Meta Knight?

Eh maybe "too good" weren't the right words. Even though some custom moves were fixed some characters still have really jank combos/setups with them

 

[ぱみゅ]

You keep using that one word.
I don't think you know what it means.

 

[Ansou]

Eh maybe "too good" weren't the right words. Even though some custom moves were fixed some characters still have really jank combos/setups with them

Yes, there are dangerous setups with some kill moves and such, but the problem is that people seem to think that they are overpowered or that they make the characters one-sided. Mii Brawler has his Helicopter Kick combos. Marthcina have their F-Throw/Grab Release -> Crescent Slash. Kirby has scary footstool jab lock combos with Grounding Stone and U-Tilt -> Upper Cutter. Pikachu can punish Air Dodges with Heavy Skull Bash and Fox can do the same with Twisting Fox. Palutena has her Lightweight U-Air to get really close to the top blastzone. Diddy Kong has a weird rocket kill move, Mario has U-Air -> Explosive Punch and Rosalina can surprise people with Luma warp. Last but not least, Donkey Kong has super armor on his Kong Cyclone which is also a kill move.

But are these things broken, overpowered or centralizing so that they make the characters one-sided? A Mii Brawler might be fishing for a grab near the ledge to kill, but only at very specific percentages. While Kirby's jab lock is scary, it's pretty hard to execute and his combo ability is pretty much his strong point anyway. A kill confirm from an U-Tilt is only reliable at pretty high percentages although it helps the character a bit. While we did see ESAM fish a lot for Heavy Skull Bash, most people seem to agree that he would have done better if he had just kept to how he usually played as he got himself punished. Luma Warp has a big blind spot. Palutena really needs the mobility from her customs. Diddy Kong can kill confirm with U-Smash from a Banana anyway. Fox's best kill move is still U-Smash. And while Kong Cyclone is incredibly efficient to spam against those that are not used to it, it will become a lot less useful against anyone who knows how to punish it and has practised to attack/Air Dodge out of it.

Except for maybe Palutena's customs, these moves don't completely change a character's gameplan. They are by no means spammable and they will definitely not make a character more one-sided than default Donkey Kong.

 

[Steelballray]

Have you guys ever spoke about the Pro controllers ban yet? That bull**** needs to stop.

This is my first smash game and I'm putting myself at a disadvantage playing with such a disfigured controller as the GC one, when I'm of course used to the regular modern design of today's controllers. Just DQ everyone who doesnt desync or something.

You can have an extra Wii U to sync the controller to sync it to when it's not used or just have it put somewhere where it won't move.

Heck. You can have the TO provide the controller and you put it back after the set and that way you'll be sure nothing happens.

Not just ban it and force people to play with a ****ty ass trash controller.


Also..

Me and the other TOs from the GCC (Gulf countries community) are looking to unify our ruleset and we are trying to find a way to seal the deal with Miis before we move to stages. I think they should be able to use any moveset they want but not change it in the same set. They can change to any character including the other mii types as long as the specials for that mii don't change.

Reason I think that should be the case is because I they already have the advantage of choosing their moves pre the set, most likely knowing who they are facing and being able to pick their specials accordingly if they wish. And with other characters not being allowed to change their moves, I think it's fair for that Mii to have it the same way for the set at least.


Off topic: customs supporters, you guys are a damn eyesore.

 

[Pazx]

Me and the other TOs from the GCC (Gulf countries community) are looking to unify our ruleset and we are trying to find a way to seal the deal with Miis before we move to stages. I think they should be able to use any moveset they want but not change it in the same set. They can change to any character including the other mii types as long as the specials for that mii don't change.

Reason I think that should be the case is because I they already have the advantage of choosing their moves pre the set, most likely knowing who they are facing and being able to pick their specials accordingly if they wish. And with other characters not being allowed to change their moves, I think it's fair for that Mii to have it the same way for the set at least.

Strongly disagree. What happens when a Gunner chooses reflector against a character with no projectile and is unable to switch away from it when the Gunner should have counterpick advantage? Treat each individual moveset as a unique character, remember that a character contains a moveset and thus the moveset must be selected when the character is, and allow switching between them between games. This means that 2132 and 3211 Mii Gunners are different characters, in the same way that Pit and Dark Pit are.

A reminder of set procedure (ignoring stages)
1. Game one: both players select their characters. Either player may choose to call a blind pick.
2. Subsequent games: the winner of the previous match chooses their character. THEN, the loser of the previous match chooses their character.

ps. pro controller ban is dumb

 

[Stromp]

Steelballray
Is that really the only reason why pro controllers are banned? If so that's really sad. Also I do wonder if customs will be brought back at some point

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Steelballray
Is that really the only reason why pro controllers are banned? If so that's really sad. Also I do wonder if customs will be brought back at some point

I'm hopeful that between the latest patch's large number of custom changes and custom-specials-no-equipment tournament mode providing large quantities of data for another customs-centric patch, players will have more of a reason to care about customs now that they're being balanced like everything else.

Really, I think there are only 3 (maybe 4) customs that need to be touched for most claims of "jank" to vanish. Kong Cyclone (nerf autocancel), Heavy Skull Bash (remove instant partial charge on smash input, also fix momentum glitch), Timber Counter (something involving the sapling, IDK what though, maybe shorter duration or vanish on trip), and Extreme Balloon Trip (explosion size already reduced, maybe nerf Villager's vertical boost on detonation next if necessary). If that happens, then I think customs would be in a very good place.

 

[Yikarur]

in germany we allow Guest Mii's with free moves and every Mii is treated as a unique character for counterpick purposes.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm hopeful that between the latest patch's large number of custom changes and custom-specials-no-equipment tournament mode providing large quantities of data for another customs-centric patch, players will have more of a reason to care about customs now that they're being balanced like everything else.

Really, I think there are only 3 (maybe 4) customs that need to be touched for most claims of "jank" to vanish. Kong Cyclone (nerf autocancel), Heavy Skull Bash (remove instant partial charge on smash input, also fix momentum glitch), Timber Counter (something involving the sapling, IDK what though, maybe shorter duration or vanish on trip), and Extreme Balloon Trip (explosion size already reduced, maybe nerf Villager's vertical boost on detonation next if necessary). If that happens, then I think customs would be in a very good place.

Tbh if those moves weren't being complained about, we'd see complaints for things like Jumbo hoops or whatever mario's killing up-b is called, and penetrating needles, and basically every custom that's used over its default counterpart (especially on top tiers).

Not saying those complaints are justified, but public support for customs won't suddenly change if the most often complained about ones were removed, people just find more things to complain about (just like as top tiers get nerfed people just complain about the next top tier)
I'm anti-custom because of the set-up required (i don't think the custom move project or whatever is a viable solution since the sets often quickly become sub-optimal and you have to update each wii constantly), not because of balance concerns. If there was a patch that unlocked every custom move automatically....now that would be amazing.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Tbh if those moves weren't being complained about, we'd see complaints for things like Jumbo hoops or whatever mario's killing up-b is called, and penetrating needles, and basically every custom that's used over its default counterpart (especially on top tiers).

Not saying those complaints are justified, but public support for customs won't suddenly change if the most often complained about ones were removed, people just find more things to complain about (just like as top tiers get nerfed people just complain about the next top tier)
I'm anti-custom because of the set-up required (i don't think the custom move project or whatever is a viable solution since the sets often quickly become sub-optimal and you have to update each wii constantly), not because of balance concerns. If there was a patch that unlocked every custom move automatically....now that would be amazing.

You've got a point that people will always find something to complain about, but I think there's definitely a line somewhere at which point you can safely say that anyone complaining about a custom below that line is just being stupid.

So for a system such as my own with all customs unlocked you'd be in favor?

 

[Ghostbone]

So for a system such as my own with all customs unlocked you'd be in favor?

Nah the problem is everyone at home needs systems with all customs unlocked as well so they can properly train using them.
New players also need to have access to every custom so there isn't a huge barrier of entry towards them (and no, unlocking characters isn't at all comparable to the months of grinding it takes to get all customs).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Nah the problem is everyone at home needs systems with all customs unlocked as well so they can properly train using them.
New players also need to have access to every custom so there isn't a huge barrier of entry towards them (and no, unlocking characters isn't at all comparable to the months of grinding it takes to get all customs).

Well, month singular in my case. And as I say every time, I hesitate to even call it grinding because a) it was 5 hours or less per week and b) it was mostly done in the process of me going for the "clear mode X with all characters" challenges so by the time that was over with I only had about a quarter of them left to go.

Anyway this is clearly going to go in circles if we let it so I won't belabor the point too much.

 

[Ghostbone]

I mean not everyone cares for single player challenges.
I only cared about getting all the music and I doubt I even have 1/2 of the custom moves after doing crazy orders to get all the CDs.
Plus it takes exponentially longer to unlock customs as you go on because you get repeats. (man there are so many ways they could make getting all the customs easier, being able to swap repeats for other ones, being able to buy them with coins.....nintendo why)

The process of unlocking customs isn't worth it (mostly because it alienates new players), and that's the opinion a lot of people share.

 

[Ansou]

Nah the problem is everyone at home needs systems with all customs unlocked as well so they can properly train using them.
New players also need to have access to every custom so there isn't a huge barrier of entry towards them (and no, unlocking characters isn't at all comparable to the months of grinding it takes to get all customs).

Question: why does every person need to have all customs unlocked on their Wii U? How do you suppose properly train using them? I'm pretty sure that some of the top players in my scene (customs on) haven't even tried labbing that much with customs for their own characters, so it's not exactly needed in order to get good at the game or understand the meta...

 

[Ghostbone]

Every person needs to have easy access to whatever's allowed in competition.
While it's not "needed" to be good at the game, it puts you at a disadvantage which isn't what we want. How would you feel if you kept losing to something that you couldn't even practice against?

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't agree with it, but we can all acknowledge that this is by far the biggest real problem with customs and something that has not been adequately addressed.

 

[Ghostbone]

Why can't nintendo just ****ing patch the game so all customs are unlocked automatically lmao.

If they're going to balance customs they should at least make them easy to access.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Apparently MLG made some changes to its rules recently.

3DSes are legal now, so long as they do not create any sort of distraction or advantage via changing things. Pro Controllers will be banned REGARDLESS of the "Wired Controller Clause" option. And if 1.1.1 remains, Diddy will be banned (unlikely).

R.I.P. me; my local scene bandwagons the rules of major tournaments, so if they decide to do it, then I may have to drop Smash. I cannot re-learn another controller that has a bunch of changes, especially with me having college.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So they're allowing a controller that literally prevents a stage from being selected (Miiverse) but disallows another because maybe wireless interference? Seriously?

Admittedly Miiverse is hardly a unique stage since it's basically a Battlefield reskin, but still.

 

[SapphSabre777]

So they're allowing a controller that literally prevents a stage from being selected (Miiverse) but disallows another because maybe wireless interference? Seriously?

Admittedly Miiverse is hardly a unique stage since it's basically a Battlefield reskin, but still.

A controller that can be modified to function just like other wireless controllers, too, but they decided against it, apparently.

Regardless of the thoughts of TOs and such, if this becomes more commonplace (the bans towards Pro Controllers regardless of work-arounds), then this places a big barrier-of-entry towards those who use Pro Controllers and any subsequent wireless controller.

For a thriving, growing game such as Smash Wii U, a possible trend like this would discourage players and create barriers-of-entry, causing current players to perform sub-optimally and possibly quit the game while scaring new players because of a limitation on what they can and cannot play with, controller-wise. It really is scary, if you think about it.

 

[Ghostbone]

Wireless controllers were banned at Evo iirc

Large tournaments tend to be forced to ban pro controllers because of connectivity issues (ie. continuously preventing games on a console from starting because the controller keeps connecting). It's a ridiculously annoying issue that occurs literally every tournament with pro controllers involved lmao.

Locals should have no issue with allowing them though (don't have the same tight schedule).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Wireless controllers were banned at Evo iirc

Large tournaments tend to be forced to ban pro controllers because of connectivity issues (ie. continuously preventing games on a console from starting because the controller keeps connecting). It's a ridiculously annoying issue that occurs literally every tournament with pro controllers involved lmao.

Locals should have no issue with allowing them though (don't have the same tight schedule).

Yeah, I attend a small weekly event (mostly friendlies) at a nearby university and the entire thing fits into a single classroom. No issues with wireless controllers there and half the group uses them.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Wireless controllers were banned at Evo iirc

Large tournaments tend to be forced to ban pro controllers because of connectivity issues (ie. continuously preventing games on a console from starting because the controller keeps connecting). It's a ridiculously annoying issue that occurs literally every tournament with pro controllers involved lmao.

Locals should have no issue with allowing them though (don't have the same tight schedule).

With Sol's "Wired Controller Clause," though, as soon as the controller is unplugged, the power is out and it is gone, without any need to go after a de-sync. Problem would be to enforce it, even then.

Still, for players like me that didn't have a lot of options to begin with, or people that liked the control scheme for the Pro Controller, this is a huge blow and I definitely fear it will soon lead to a universal ban if the "Wired" clause is denied and deemed not enough. I understand their thoughts in doing such, but it would lead to players like me having to go back to square-one with a foreign controller that they cannot control and play optimally with, or even quit top-level competition because it does take time to adjust to a new controller, and the disadvantage of being behind a year in terms of controlling something can easily be deemed too heavy compared to the reward. Its all the TO's choice, ultimately, and the players cannot do a lot about it.

 

[thehard]

I thought you could work around pro controllers with a slip of paper or something

 

[Ghostbone]

Tbh it takes at most a month to get used to the gamecube controller, probs more like 2 weeks if you completely switch.
Whining that you're a year behind is a pretty ridiculous exaggeration.

Not that people should be forced to switch, most new players come into the scene with pro controllers, but if a national is announced that bans them, players that would want to go have plenty of time to practice with legal controllers.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Tbh it takes at most a month to get used to the gamecube controller, probs more like 2 weeks if you completely switch.
Whining that you're a year behind is a pretty ridiculous exaggeration.

Not that people should be forced to switch, most new players come into the scene with pro controllers, but if a national is announced that bans them, players that would want to go have plenty of time to practice with legal controllers.

A lot of that just stems from relative timing, how much time people actually have for Smash and such, though I agree a year is absurd.

Also, according to Chibo: "We are still doing testing regarding the Pro Controller, and seeing if we can make a compromise here. I'll provide an update on this as soon as I can."

tfw your friend sends you 3/4s of a Tweet, and the last 1/4 relates to the topic.

 

[DanGR]

Our local tournament series is trying out a no-customs ruleset where Mii fighters customs are legal and you can use any size/weight, but you have to signup at the beginning of the tournament and specify 1 custom set and 1 size/weight you'll use for the entire tournament.

Thoughts? Seems like a nice compromise to me.

 

[Yikarur]

The Gamecube Controller is the worst of the controllers (excluding the controllers where you have a clear disadvantage)
like
S-Tier:
WiiU Pro Controller / (Gamepad)
Wiimote + Nunchuck
A Tier:
Classic Controller Pro
B-Tier:
Gamecube Controller
E-Tier
3DS
F-Tier:
Wiimote

I would not want from everyone to switch to the far inferior Gamecube Controller if they are adjusted to the WiiU Pro Controller.
Even though there would be easy ways to make wireless WiiU Pro Controllers work, the wired clause would get rid of any problems.
I would never join a tournament where I have to use a Gamecube Controller...

Our local tournament series is trying out a no-customs ruleset where Mii fighters customs are legal and you can use any size/weight, but you have to signup at the beginning of the tournament and specify 1 custom set and 1 size/weight you'll use for the entire tournament.

Thoughts? Seems like a nice compromise to me.

Thats cool. More love to Mii's =) I still think "Guest Mii's -> any move" is way to go because you don't need extra organization or resources but I'm always jelous when tournaments far away are allowing my true main (Mini Brawler)

 

[Ghostbone]

Smash is literally made for the gamecube controller, not sure how you can argue against it. (they probably only made the gamecube adapter cos Sakurai would refuse to make the game otherwise haha)

 

[Yikarur]

It's just a matter of habit. The gamecube controller is worse in almost any point except being wired.
But EVERYONE has always played with it since Melee.
And germany has a lot of WiiU Pro Controller users and they told me "I'm so happy I don't have to play the Gamecube Controller anymore"
It would be a crime to ban that controller..

 

[iVoltage]

It's just a matter of habit. The gamecube controller is worse in almost any point except being wired.
But EVERYONE has always played with it since Melee.
And germany has a lot of WiiU Pro Controller users and they told me "I'm so happy I don't have to play the Gamecube Controller anymore"
It would be a crime to ban that controller..

I like the pro controer and all, but its really spaced out mainly in the control sticks. There is no one "best controller" and that's all opinions. I would argue the only "bad" controller is the wiimote.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Having more buttons might be a very objective way to state one controller is better than other.

But its wireless issues are a deal big enough to reconsider its viability.

 

[Ghostbone]

More buttons doesn't mean it's better if the sticks are worse.

 

[Ansou]

I was using the Wii U Pro Controller a while ago but switched to the GC Controller only because I got tired of synching and I found it easier to do perfect pivots on the new Smash GC Controllers. I find it crazy to ban the Pro Controller when such a thing as the wired clause exist though. The Gamepad is okay to ban because there is only one of them on every setup and it's pretty similar to a Pro Controller regardless.

 

[Ajimi]

Our local tournament series is trying out a no-customs ruleset where Mii fighters customs are legal and you can use any size/weight, but you have to signup at the beginning of the tournament and specify 1 custom set and 1 size/weight you'll use for the entire tournament.

Thoughts? Seems like a nice compromise to me.

That's good and definitely a lot better than Miis ban or 1111.

However I think it would be better to limit players to 1 custom set per game set (BO3/5) rather than the entire tournament. Also 1 custom set per type of Mii (so 3 Mii max) and not only 1, otherwise it is like a double character ban.
For size/weight, personally I think it's best for organizational purposes (both TO and players (= training)) to allow only Guests Miis.

 

[dav3yb]

Wireless controllers were banned at Evo iirc

Large tournaments tend to be forced to ban pro controllers because of connectivity issues (ie. continuously preventing games on a console from starting because the controller keeps connecting). It's a ridiculously annoying issue that occurs literally every tournament with pro controllers involved lmao.

Locals should have no issue with allowing them though (don't have the same tight schedule).

This is a non issue though with wiiu pro controller. you can pull the batteries out of the controller and it will still function fine off usb power. we did this for our most recent tournament and it worked out fine. No outside interference from wireless controllers when they weren't in a match.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Our local tournament series is trying out a no-customs ruleset where Mii fighters customs are legal and you can use any size/weight, but you have to signup at the beginning of the tournament and specify 1 custom set and 1 size/weight you'll use for the entire tournament.

Thoughts? Seems like a nice compromise to me.

I get the "only one size/weight" thing, because setting up a new Mii takes quite a bit of time, and it's perfectly understandable that the TO would want to limit that. In fact, I might steal that´for my upcoming tournament. However, once you have that Mii set up, it takes 60 seconds at most to make a new moveset for that Mii. There's no reason to lock in those customs for the character. Granted, it's better than just not having Miis, but there's no reason not to allow free switching between 2122 and 1122 Brawler, just for example.

 

[Ghostbone]

I get the "only one size/weight" thing, because setting up a new Mii takes quite a bit of time, and it's perfectly understandable that the TO would want to limit that. In fact, I might steal that´for my upcoming tournament. However, once you have that Mii set up, it takes 60 seconds at most to make a new moveset for that Mii. There's no reason to lock in those customs for the character. Granted, it's better than just not having Miis, but there's no reason not to allow free switching between 2122 and 1122 Brawler, just for example.

But how can we expect players to adapt to the other player changing their specials in the middle of the set?
There's a reason we banned Pokemon trainer in Brawl, and we don't let players switch characters mid set, it's too confusing to expect players to have to deal with multiple sets of moves from their opponent!

 

[FullMoon]

... Pokémon Trainer was banned in Brawl?